Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Either Rocks or Rockers might have worked.Could have been the Cleveland Rocks. Missed opportunity.
Either Rocks or Rockers might have worked.Could have been the Cleveland Rocks. Missed opportunity.
Wonder if there would be any pushback if they called them the Cleveland Hill People; respecting the heritage of the immigrants who settled the Appalachian mountains in Ohio, but used Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel as their mascot.Even if you think the name was respectful (I could see that argument) the logo was completely preposterous. That’s not even debatable.
This is a nonsensical argument. One of the steps in combating racism is to stop perpetuating racism. The term “Indian” came about because some white guys didn’t know where they were.This is always the argument. "Open a history book". Yes those have existed. There's a whole museum dedicated to it in Washington DC. The kids are really lining up for those.
But what purpose does removing "offensive" names from sports teams or colleges, or cities and towns. It's not to protect Native American feelings from getting hurt. It's to make non native American people to feel better about themselves. They could rework the images or the names in order to incorporate the legacy better but they don't. They erase it.
Wahoo was a beloved caricature by many, yet times certainly change. The logo was only preposterous to modern sensibilities.Even if you think the name was respectful (I could see that argument) the logo was completely preposterous. That’s not even debatable.
I’d go with three. Cincinnati Reds were shortened from Red Stockings.They play in a league where two teams are named after socks, how bad can it be?
Look, even as an Indians fan I couldn't defend Chief Wahoo. As one of the Indian-type nicknames, it wasn't the worst, but it was time. That stuff worked 106 years ago; it doesn't now.Even if you think the name was respectful (I could see that argument) the logo was completely preposterous. That’s not even debatable.
There are a lot of things we no longer do as civilization advances. Changing the name of a baseball team shouldn't be that big of a deal, but here we are. <_<That's not arguing one way or another. That's simply stating a fact. Times change. One wonders what is underneath the change and where it leads. Once we humanize the victim, what then?
Man I don’t even know where to start with this, sorry. Not everything has to be a giant payback or concession, sometimes people just do the right thing and a small step in that direction is meaningful enough.Wahoo was a beloved caricature by many, yet times certainly change. The logo was only preposterous to modern sensibilities.
That's not arguing one way or another. That's simply stating a fact. Times change. One wonders what is underneath the change and where it leads. Once we humanize the victim, what then?
Does the established society give back the land as restitution? What does it pay other than the promise of citizenship, like Rome did?
We are not living in a world of territorial conquest, unless you're in China or Islamic.
That's just fact. What to do with that? Are we ossified shells or is our new sensitivity to the vanquished a good thing? That we had to dehumanize to conquer says a lot about the fallibility of our conquest upon our own grounds to begin with. The Enlightenment had to see the victims as less than human, otherwise to recognize their worth would have made conquest impossible. So what now, once granted their humanity? Erasing their image from sports teams is the final step in recognizing this?
Inquiring minds want to know.
The team brass feared branding issues due to the University of Richmond already having that nickname.Apparently they had a professional baseball team named Spiders in Cleveland during the late 1800s, so that would have been cool. This is more than fine though. The statues are pretty neat.
Thinking the existence of the Colorado Rockies may have had an impact on choosing either one of those. Too similar I’d expect, though not bad choices.Either Rocks or Rockers might have worked.
Fans have had enough of that. Everything MLB does to promote Cleveland revolves or ties into that stupid museum. It's lazy marketing.Either Rocks or Rockers might have worked.
Indians are people from India.So clearly let's erase all mentions of them ever existing in order to help fix that.
Yep, but every viable alternative that hit my orbit was uninspiring or worse.Fans have had enough of that. Everything MLB does to promote Cleveland revolves or ties into that stupid museum. It's lazy marketing.
I kind of liked Municipals, but Guardians is OK.Yep, but every viable alternative that hit my orbit was uninspiring or worse.
Why did you put offensive in quotation marks?This is always the argument. "Open a history book". Yes those have existed. There's a whole museum dedicated to it in Washington DC. The kids are really lining up for those.
But what purpose does removing "offensive" names from sports teams or colleges, or cities and towns. It's not to protect Native American feelings from getting hurt. It's to make non native American people to feel better about themselves. They could rework the images or the names in order to incorporate the legacy better but they don't. They erase it.
Looks like the name was already taken by a local Roller derby team.The name is based on two art deco statues on the Hope Street Bridge that are really cool so I'm sure their is going to be lots of people jumping on that bandwagon.
The Cleveland Guardians
Wow.Looks like the name was already taken by a local Roller derby team.
http://www.clevelandguardians.com/
They've been competing for 10 years and no one has ever heard of them.Looks like the name was already taken by a local Roller derby team.
http://www.clevelandguardians.com/
Changing the name is indicative of the reconstruction of the humanity of past aggressions and dehumanization. I want to know where the recognition leads us. It already led us to a weird court case in which a tribe now technically owns half of Oklahoma's land by treaty. It wasn't a big Supreme Court case in the media, but it was huge in terms of treaty recognition and how we view indigenous rights. Don't tell me further things regarding restitution and enforcement aren't coming down the pike. This is only an increment in a reevaluation of the dispossession on indigenous cultures.There are a lot of things we no longer do as civilization advances. Changing the name of a baseball team shouldn't be that big of a deal, but here we are. <_<
Right now there have been ten-twenty Catholic Churches burned in Canada over the past month because of the inability to reconcile Western conquest when met with indigenous protestations about said conquest. Don't tell me this sort of #### isn't fracturing, nor indicative of an entire reevaluation of the Western settling project by the West itself, settling which involved taking indigenous lands by means most people would consider either unfair, forced, or warlike.Some of the takes in this thread are really Insein.
I hear what you’re saying - just change the mascot to Apu from the Simpsons and it’s all good.Indians are people from India.
This is one of those things that I just dont think has been worth the time and energy to change...but is also something that isn't worth fighting about now that it has. This is my life in between though. Our priorities have been bass ackwards my entire adult life. I wanted them to becone the Steamers just to see Karen's area wide lose their...(ahem)...####.And tough #### if people don't like my argument or consider it extreme. There are movements afoot and being discussed in rooms of law right now. I had two law professors specializing in "Indian" law rights. One in taxation, one in conflict of laws. They still called it "Indian" in 2008-9, which was probably behind the P.C. times even then. But to reassert: There is much more #### afoot than you'd believe.
Book it and look me up in five years.
I agree with this. I'm not against the name change. I just want people to understand the thinking behind the changing of the name of the public/private institutions like the Redskins and the Indians in how it reflects new sensibilities and the new dominant culture that prevails. My question is what else do those new sensibilities entail, and what does the dominant culture seek?This is one of those things that I just dont think has been worth the time and energy to change...but is also something that isn't worth fighting about now that it has. This is my life in between though. Our priorities have been bass ackwards my entire adult life. I wanted them to becone the Steamers just to see Karen's area wide lose their...(ahem)...####.
They also hadn’t posted to the site in 3 years but suddenly have a post up on Saturday.Galileo said:They've been competing for 10 years and no one has ever heard of them.
Agree.The General said:What were some of the other choices again? Heard “Spiders” a lot. Guardians is pretty meh.
Thought he was from Oakland, was curious why he had this gig myselfAgree.
Like the plain old The Cleveland Baseball club or Team much better. Is Hanks from Cleveland or down on his luck and looking for gigs? WILSON!!
you are learning the first lesson of old age, my friend - either fight to the death or give up now and save yourself a lot of trouble. you're about to be irrelevant - welcome to the club. the Age of Truth & Justice served a third of the American populace veryveryvery well but did not even serve women, coloreds or differents. the old God code turned out to be a much larger portion of the Power code than anyone imagined so, when it eroded. it gave America freedom without instructions and the country has gleefully violated every tenet of common sense since to make up for the Old Way having given them ouchies. media & mommies have drowned Justice and unmoored Truth so it's now no more than the biggest house in the floodstream. and ranting in the face of it raises rather than lowers the blood pressure. under these terms there is no more Right - only Love, and Small Acts of Kindness, careening to the end amidst the stormwash of the Criminally Wrong. Enjoy!It already was a debate topic. The team didn't just change the name willy-nilly. The side in favor of changing the name won. That should be obvious to all comers.
Star power with some national appeal. Hanks is not from Cleveland, but he spent considerable time here in the 70's when he got his first professional job working on the Great Lakes Shakespeare Festival. He became an Indians fan (which was tough to do in the 70's!) and developed a fond place in his heart for the city.Agree.
Like the plain old The Cleveland Baseball club or Team much better. Is Hanks from Cleveland or down on his luck and looking for gigs? WILSON!!
Classic scene from one of his earliest films where Hanks channels his inner Tribe fan.Star power with some national appeal. Hanks is not from Cleveland, but he spent considerable time here in the 70's when he got his first professional job working on the Great Lakes Shakespeare Festival. He became an Indians fan (which was tough to do in the 70's!) and developed a fond place in his heart for the city.
$3.27They also hadn’t posted to the site in 3 years but suddenly have a post up on Saturday.
Doing their best to be able to argue that they weren’t domain name camping so they can pry some money from MLB. Wonder how much they’ll get for it?
I named The first coach pitch team that I managed after the Cleveland Spiders. Partly cause my son was born in Cleveland but also because I thought it was an awesome name.caustic said:Now that I know the local history behind the name I’d say it’s pretty solid — at first it just seemed dumb. I still think the Spiders would’ve been cooler, though.
They could have honored their history by memorializing when the Cuyahoga River ignited into flames, maybe something like the Firewaters. Not sure why they didn’t do that.shoulda gone cleveland pilgrims IMO
It’s hard to take the argument seriously when you’ve misstated the outcome of the case. First, there’s not “a” tribe, there are actually multiple tribes involved. Second, the ruling had nothing to do with who owns the land. It’s all about legal jurisdiction almost entirely related to criminal law. Third, the language in the treaty was pretty clear. Hard to argue that there is a slippery slope when the government is simply enforcing clear contractual language.rockaction said:It already led us to a weird court case in which a tribe now technically owns half of Oklahoma's land by treaty. It wasn't a big Supreme Court case in the media, but it was huge in terms of treaty recognition and how we view indigenous rights. Don't tell me further things regarding restitution and enforcement aren't coming down the pike. This is only an increment in a reevaluation of the dispossession on indigenous cultures.