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Official new name of Cleveland Indians (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Bracie Smathers
- Start date
ericttspikes
Footballguy
Wonder if there would be any pushback if they called them the Cleveland Hill People; respecting the heritage of the immigrants who settled the Appalachian mountains in Ohio, but used Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel as their mascot.
DaVinci
FairTaxguy
This is a nonsensical argument. One of the steps in combating racism is to stop perpetuating racism. The term “Indian” came about because some white guys didn’t know where they were.
I agree that the US should be doing more to correct the injustices it has done to Native American people. This is the least it can do.
rockaction
Footballguy
Wahoo was a beloved caricature by many, yet times certainly change. The logo was only preposterous to modern sensibilities.
That's not arguing one way or another. That's simply stating a fact. Times change. One wonders what is underneath the change and where it leads. Once we humanize the victim, what then?
Does the established society give back the land as restitution? What does it pay other than the promise of citizenship, like Rome did?
We are not living in a world of territorial conquest, unless you're in China or Islamic.
That's just fact. What to do with that? Are we ossified shells or is our new sensitivity to the vanquished a good thing? That we had to dehumanize to conquer says a lot about the fallibility of our conquest upon our own grounds to begin with. The Enlightenment had to see the victims as less than human, otherwise to recognize their worth would have made conquest impossible. So what now, once granted their humanity? Erasing their image from sports teams is the final step in recognizing this?
Inquiring minds want to know.
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Don Quixote
Footballguy
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ShamrockPride
Footballguy
The names fine. The logo is the drizzling #####.
Tom Servo
Nittany Beavers
Look, even as an Indians fan I couldn't defend Chief Wahoo. As one of the Indian-type nicknames, it wasn't the worst, but it was time. That stuff worked 106 years ago; it doesn't now.
The lengths fans and others will go to defend this is astounding. I'm may be an Indians fan and conservative, but in the end this is making a small concession to the native/aboriginal population.
There are enough nicknames coming out - especially in the minor leagues - that puts the lie to this hysteria of a future of bland, non-descriptive nicknames.
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Tom Servo
Nittany Beavers
There are a lot of things we no longer do as civilization advances. Changing the name of a baseball team shouldn't be that big of a deal, but here we are. <_<
Capella
Footballguy
Man I don’t even know where to start with this, sorry. Not everything has to be a giant payback or concession, sometimes people just do the right thing and a small step in that direction is meaningful enough.
Galileo
Footballguy
The team brass feared branding issues due to the University of Richmond already having that nickname.
cheeseypoof
Footballguy
Thinking the existence of the Colorado Rockies may have had an impact on choosing either one of those. Too similar I’d expect, though not bad choices.
Tom Servo
Nittany Beavers
Fans have had enough of that. Everything MLB does to promote Cleveland revolves or ties into that stupid museum. It's lazy marketing.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Parrothead
Footballguy
Tom Servo
Nittany Beavers
Skipdog77
Footballguy
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
Looks like the name was already taken by a local Roller derby team.
http://www.clevelandguardians.com/
Ron Swanson
Footballguy
Galileo
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
Changing the name is indicative of the reconstruction of the humanity of past aggressions and dehumanization. I want to know where the recognition leads us. It already led us to a weird court case in which a tribe now technically owns half of Oklahoma's land by treaty. It wasn't a big Supreme Court case in the media, but it was huge in terms of treaty recognition and how we view indigenous rights. Don't tell me further things regarding restitution and enforcement aren't coming down the pike. This is only an increment in a reevaluation of the dispossession on indigenous cultures.
I'm gonna have to go ahead and guarantee that. There is always a slope, and it is always slippery because there's something behind it.
I'm not arguing against the name change. The ends come from some ideological underpinnings, and it's important to recognize those ideological underpinnings lest a bunch of settled landowners be called in for a real surprise in regard to taxation and re-annexation like they were in Tulsa.
Again, if you tell me I'm wrong, just look at the slippery slope regarding almost everything coming from the left. We're now calling puberty blockers for trans youth "adequate health care." There are no slippery slopes, Tom. Get with it or get crushed by rising tides.
rockaction
Footballguy
And tough #### if people don't like my argument or consider it extreme. There are movements afoot and being discussed in rooms of law right now. I had two law professors specializing in "Indian" law rights. One in taxation, one in conflict of laws. They still called it "Indian" in 2008-9, which was probably behind the P.C. times even then. But to reassert: There is much more #### afoot than you'd believe.
Book it and look me up in five years.
Book it and look me up in five years.
rockaction
Footballguy
Right now there have been ten-twenty Catholic Churches burned in Canada over the past month because of the inability to reconcile Western conquest when met with indigenous protestations about said conquest. Don't tell me this sort of #### isn't fracturing, nor indicative of an entire reevaluation of the Western settling project by the West itself, settling which involved taking indigenous lands by means most people would consider either unfair, forced, or warlike.
Don't be the silly hoi polloi, never seeing what's coming next in the ideological race for legitimate/illigetimate actions undertaken and taken. And don't tell me modern property isn't at stake due to the underpinnings and nascent movements by the indigenous to reclaim what they feel is rightly theirs.
Don't be one of the simpering who gets taken by surprise by this in twenty years. Because I guarantee you, the movement is and has been afoot.
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AAABatteries
Footballguy
I hear what you’re saying - just change the mascot to Apu from the Simpsons and it’s all good.
MAC_32
Footballguy
This is one of those things that I just dont think has been worth the time and energy to change...but is also something that isn't worth fighting about now that it has. This is my life in between though. Our priorities have been bass ackwards my entire adult life. I wanted them to becone the Steamers just to see Karen's area wide lose their...(ahem)...####.
rockaction
Footballguy
I agree with this. I'm not against the name change. I just want people to understand the thinking behind the changing of the name of the public/private institutions like the Redskins and the Indians in how it reflects new sensibilities and the new dominant culture that prevails. My question is what else do those new sensibilities entail, and what does the dominant culture seek?
Perhaps my point is lost here. We've seen a radical shift in the protection and sanctity of property, both intellectual and tangible, chattel and immovable, over the past five years like I haven't seen in a long time. Most of it is due to grievances with past systemic wrongs by the Western project with respect to those whose humanity we haven't recognized along the way. Seems to me to be an obvious point, and a simple one.
There were certain groups that were almost successful in getting the USPTO, through the courts, to remove intellectual property protection to marks that were using indigenous humanity (Redskins, Indians and Wahoo) to sell product. That's all well and fine, no real seeming harm done but to those business and their trademark and good will, but there is a broader movement afoot to reassess property and to whom it rightfully belongs. (See the lack of enforcement of burnt and looted cities the past year and the official positions of the groups whose members were responsible. See also the Oklahoma case I keep mentioning.) Whether one thinks it right or not, it's coming from the same political pull and has the same sympathies as those who have long complained about indigenous marks and problematic selling points.
FairWarning
Footballguy
The logo reminds me of the 50’s White Sox with the winged sock, very retro.
beer 30
Footballguy
Meh, life long Indians fan, the name & logo wasn't a hill I was going to die on. All my stuff says Indians or has Wahoo on it and I'm not trashing it because of the name change. I'm also not bent about the name change, it was time. Guardians works as well as some I heard (Spiders) and much better than others (Rockers). Move on, it will evolve. Life's too short to make this some kind of debate topic. It's a baseball team playing a game.
rockaction
Footballguy
It already was a debate topic. The team didn't just change the name willy-nilly. The side in favor of changing the name won. That should be obvious to all comers.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
They also hadn’t posted to the site in 3 years but suddenly have a post up on Saturday.Galileo said:They've been competing for 10 years and no one has ever heard of them.
Doing their best to be able to argue that they weren’t domain name camping so they can pry some money from MLB. Wonder how much they’ll get for it?
Summer Wheat
Footballguy
Agree.The General said:
Like the plain old The Cleveland Baseball club or Team much better. Is Hanks from Cleveland or down on his luck and looking for gigs? WILSON!!
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Navin Johnson
Footballguy
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
you are learning the first lesson of old age, my friend - either fight to the death or give up now and save yourself a lot of trouble. you're about to be irrelevant - welcome to the club. the Age of Truth & Justice served a third of the American populace veryveryvery well but did not even serve women, coloreds or differents. the old God code turned out to be a much larger portion of the Power code than anyone imagined so, when it eroded. it gave America freedom without instructions and the country has gleefully violated every tenet of common sense since to make up for the Old Way having given them ouchies. media & mommies have drowned Justice and unmoored Truth so it's now no more than the biggest house in the floodstream. and ranting in the face of it raises rather than lowers the blood pressure. under these terms there is no more Right - only Love, and Small Acts of Kindness, careening to the end amidst the stormwash of the Criminally Wrong. Enjoy!
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Have no fear rocknation, the CRT warriors are here! The battleground is set and the lines are drawn, school boards across the country are in a fight to the finish on who, what , where, when is Good History and they are determined to use their sisyphusian might to push that pendulum right back where it belongs! Same fight from a different corner of the ring and while we agree we are not yet on the ninth circle it seems we may be at the least halfway there. Oh the times they are a-changin'
Galileo
Footballguy
Star power with some national appeal. Hanks is not from Cleveland, but he spent considerable time here in the 70's when he got his first professional job working on the Great Lakes Shakespeare Festival. He became an Indians fan (which was tough to do in the 70's!) and developed a fond place in his heart for the city.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Classic scene from one of his earliest films where Hanks channels his inner Tribe fan.
Bachelor Party Tennis scene
Tick
Footballguy
I really like the Guardians name and tie to the statues. I think they did a great job with the redesign.
It does have a little Toledo Storm energy with the lettering, though.
It does have a little Toledo Storm energy with the lettering, though.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I’ll tell you who doesn’t like it, guys at the bar next to me. They are screaming and yelling about how pissed they are about the name change and saying it will always be the Indians to them. Now they are saying the change was all because some Indians were sad. Literally just mocked them saying “HOW you hurt my feelings, I am sad Indian man”.
Amazingly all done without any perception of the irony involved.
Amazingly all done without any perception of the irony involved.
Tom Servo
Nittany Beavers
$3.27They also hadn’t posted to the site in 3 years but suddenly have a post up on Saturday.
Doing their best to be able to argue that they weren’t domain name camping so they can pry some money from MLB. Wonder how much they’ll get for it?
Godsbrother
Footballguy
I named The first coach pitch team that I managed after the Cleveland Spiders. Partly cause my son was born in Cleveland but also because I thought it was an awesome name.caustic said:
Chemical X
Footballguy
shoulda gone cleveland pilgrims IMO
McBokonon
Footballguy
They could have honored their history by memorializing when the Cuyahoga River ignited into flames, maybe something like the Firewaters. Not sure why they didn’t do that.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
It’s hard to take the argument seriously when you’ve misstated the outcome of the case. First, there’s not “a” tribe, there are actually multiple tribes involved. Second, the ruling had nothing to do with who owns the land. It’s all about legal jurisdiction almost entirely related to criminal law. Third, the language in the treaty was pretty clear. Hard to argue that there is a slippery slope when the government is simply enforcing clear contractual language.rockaction said:
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