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*** OFFICIAL New Orleans Saints Thread *** (1 Viewer)

SproutDaddy said:
I'm not in favor of giving up a pick for Malcom Butler.  I'd rather draft someone.
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I know this comment is a few days old, and that you've seemed to come around to giving the Pats a pick back for Butler.

One thing to consider in the event a Butler deal falls through is that Butler is a better and much more game-ready CB than anyone the Saints could draft probably even at #11. With Brees' window closing and the 2012-15 drafts being pretty much for naught defensively (1 def starter, Vaccaro), the Saints don't have the luxury of trying to hit on a 2017 defensive backfield starter out of the 2017 draft.

 
Doug B said:
I know this comment is a few days old, and that you've seemed to come around to giving the Pats a pick back for Butler.

One thing to consider in the event a Butler deal falls through is that Butler is a better and much more game-ready CB than anyone the Saints could draft probably even at #11. With Brees' window closing and the 2012-15 drafts being pretty much for naught defensively (1 def starter, Vaccaro), the Saints don't have the luxury of trying to hit on a 2017 defensive backfield starter out of the 2017 draft.
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I have due to the fact that I found out that 11 is in no way at play here at the moment.  That would be asinine.  I'm really seeing a deal get done as I'm assuming NE and NO have something planned.  I feel this trip is all about the money.  Even if we give them 32 back you have to think some other pick is coming back to NOLA.

 
Boston said:
Remind me if they were restricted free agents...
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I honestly don't know.  What I do know is NE hasn't seemed to want to pay players like him what he wants.  I get you're a NE fan and want the most your team can get.  I'm just using sound logic. I'm glad we traded Cooks but do believe the trade was lopsided.  Can't see NE getting the best end of things here.  I'm thinking Butler to NO is all but done.

 
SproutDaddy said:
I honestly don't know.  What I do know is NE hasn't seemed to want to pay players like him what he wants.  I get you're a NE fan and want the most your team can get.  I'm just using sound logic. I'm glad we traded Cooks but do believe the trade was lopsided.  Can't see NE getting the best end of things here.  I'm thinking Butler to NO is all but done.
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You really aren't understanding the restricted part (which really is my whole point)...it has nothing to do with me wanting to get more or getting the best of a deal...if NO signs him the Pats can either match or they get the #11 pick (which I do not see NO doing)...if he doesn't sign with another team he plays for less than than 4 mil which is a huge bargain for the the Pats...that is in the CBA...it is not a Patriots thing...if that is the case why would the Pats settle on a pick 31 slots lower than that? If he wants to hold out he can but he has absolutely zero leverage...that being said I have heard nothing locally about a potential holdout yet...as for not paying players have you seen the Gilmore contract?  Or the Hightower contract that made him the second highest paid ILB behind Kuechkly?  They will pay some players and let others go which is why they were about 60 mil under the cap coming off of a Super Bowl title...

 
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Boston said:
You really aren't understanding the restricted part (which really is my whole point)...it has nothing to do with me wanting to get more or getting the best of a deal...if NO signs him the Pats can either match or they get the #11 pick (which I do not see NO doing)...if he doesn't sign with another team he plays for less than than 4 mil which is a huge bargain for the the Pats...that is in the CBA...it is not a Patriots thing...if that is the case why would the Pats settle on a pick 31 slots lower than that? If he wants to hold out he can but he has absolutely zero leverage...that being said I have heard nothing locally about a potential holdout yet...as for not paying players have you seen the Gilmore contract?  Or the Hightower contract that made him the second highest paid ILB behind Kuechkly?  They will pay some players and let others go which is why they were about 60 mil under the cap coming off of a Super Bowl title...
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Just about everything you've said in this post I've already said about the situation in this thread if you've read it.

 
SproutDaddy said:
Traded Cooks to bolster the defense.  If they don't use both firsts on D, the whole front office should be fired.
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To be fair, that one first rounder is basically a high second rounder.  I don't see #32 being the impact defender you seem to think it might be.

 
Unless Cooks turns into Trent Richardson overnight the Saints got burned.

As bad as this trade looks now, just wait until Cooks is putting up Madden numbers in NE week after week

 
Statorama said:
To be fair, that one first rounder is basically a high second rounder.  I don't see #32 being the impact defender you seem to think it might be.
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That's a really dumb Analogy I keep seeing some say.  It's a first rounder, not a second.  It carries things a second doesn't.  As far as being an impact player, every draft pick carries that risk.

 
I'm just going to say I like the ADP signing. I'm excited.

I'm still not happy about the Cooks trade but I will keep an open mind on draft day.

 
Always take the top guy at his position.  Reduces the bust rate.   Top CB is better than 4th/5th DE.  Plus lattimore is a stud athlete.   Love the pick.  Would have been happy with Allen though, because he's probably the best DE.

 
If the Saints somehow end up with Foster with that Patriots pick, I take back everything I said about the Cooks deal

 
Saints selected Wisconsin OT Ryan Ramczyk with the No. 32 overall pick of the 2017 NFL draft.
Tackle is not a pressing need on the surface, but current RT Zach Strief will turn 34 in September while LT Terron Armstead has never played more than 14 games. Ramczyk (6’6/310) spent one season in Madison after transferring from UW-Stevens Point, starting all 14 games at left tackle and earning first-team All-America with just one sack and eight QB pressures allowed. PFF College gave Ramczyk its highest run-blocking grade among FBS tackles. Country strong and athletic, Ramczyk looks the part of a long-term left tackle with adequate arm length (33 ¾") and plus movement for his size. Ramczyk’s concerns are his one-year sample of high-level college football and recovery from January hip surgery, which prevented him from testing before the draft.

 
 
 
Apr 27 - 11:42 PM
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I see the Ramczyk pick along with the AP signing as yet another "We are committed to the running game" strategy by SP.  It will be abandoned in favor of Brees chunking it 60 times a game by the second quarter of the Monday night game against the Vikings.

Happy with Lattimore.

 
Still pretty surprised that the Malcolm Butler deal just dried up and blew away. Did the Patriots really consider not getting the #32 a deal breaker?

 
worrierking said:
I see the Ramczyk pick along with the AP signing as yet another "We are committed to the running game" strategy by SP.  It will be abandoned in favor of Brees chunking it 60 times a game by the second quarter of the Monday night game against the Vikings.
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:lol:

Sadly, you might actually be giving Payton too much credit. He could abandon it 12 hours from now if the rumors swirling about trading Ingram have any merit.

 
Doug B said:
Wouldn't be shocked to see Armstead's injuries hang around so much that the Saints are going with Peat and RR at the OTs by 2019.
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that's what I am sort of thinking too. Armstead has been a very pleasant surprise at LT, all things considered, but his health is a real concern. Strief has surprised me by how he's held onto the starting RT spot at his age. RR could be the plug-in for either if/when they break down.

 
Doug B said:
Still pretty surprised that the Malcolm Butler deal just dried up and blew away. Did the Patriots really consider not getting the #32 a deal breaker?
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My brain gets stuck on obsessed on certain topics and this is one of them. I will be #####ing about this come fall and my friends and family will be sick of me reminding them about it but I think it's true...

...I think the Pats dangled Butler with the idea that they could get the Saints to trade Cooks with the Saints thinking they had given up something to the Pats and the Pats would come back the other way a little cheaper than expected on Butler. So instead of the Pats really, really demanding a 1st or 2nd maybe they would relent for less given the prior deal. Butler was not being dealt for anything but the premium.

 
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saintfool said:
that's what I am sort of thinking too. Armstead has been a very pleasant surprise at LT, all things considered, but his health is a real concern. Strief has surprised me by how he's held onto the starting RT spot at his age. RR could be the plug-in for either if/when they break down.
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It's true that the line got weird when Armstead went out, all sorts of shifting and iffy backups came into play, not pretty.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
My brain gets stuck on obsessed on certain topics and this is one of them. I will be #####ing about this come fall and my friends and family will be sick of me reminding them about it but I think it's true...

...I think the Pats dangled Butler with the idea that they could get the Saints to trade Cooks with the Saints thinking they had given up something to the Pats and the Pats would come back the other way a little cheaper than expected on Butler. So instead of the Pats really, really demanding a 1st or 2nd maybe they would relent for less given the prior deal. Butler was not being dealt fro anything but the premium.
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It was definitely strange.  They got worked by the Pats here.  

 
Doug B said:
Still pretty surprised that the Malcolm Butler deal just dried up and blew away. Did the Patriots really consider not getting the #32 a deal breaker?
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Majority of Patriots fans on this board thought he was worth the 11.  Laughable at best.  He wasn't worth the 32 either.

 
The Saints spend a 2nd and a 7th and then the 3rd for Kamara. Yeah I guess he's making the team.

We've gone from the Saints cutting 3rd rounder Antonio Pittman to keep FA legend Pierre Thomas in 06 to this. He better make the team and he better be good, because right now it's Bush -> Thomas -> Sproles -> Cooks -> ???.

 
Lasko

Murphy

Kamara

Cadet

- Personally I thought Lasko would make a pretty nice 2nd back.

- Cadet will get his passing routes.

- The MM experiment I take it is over.

 
This is a pretty good thread on the front office struggles of the Saints recently.

[SIZE=12pt]‏  [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]People talk about the reasons for Saints slump, whether it was the draft or FA busts, or coaching, etc. It was everything.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Everything works together. Bad drafts lead to forcing big FA signings to fill holes, big $ + high risk. FA carries almost same risk as draft[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]You can trace it back. Saints had 6 or less draft picks from 08-2010 due to trades. Less resources. Plus draft misses.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]You also had the final 8 rule in 2010 due to uncapped year. Had to make roster work.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Culminated in 2011, when Saints had 27 free agents and had to sign them all in August, when the new CBA was finally signed after the lockout[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]By that point, Saints maybe had 5 or 6 players from the previous 3 drafts that were worth a damn. (Nicks, Jenks, Graham, Ellis, Morestead)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]2011 season was the peak. 2012 off season, time to pay the man Brees after having him for 6 years at 10M. Nicks, Colston, slated for FA[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Defense is old. Harper resigned too late. Vilma knees gone. Porter gone. #91 no longer a factor.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]If you draft well, you have someone to takeover for Vilma instead of paying Lofton $25M. And maybe you can pay Nicks. Or replace him cheaply[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Then the league drops the Bounty hammer. Two second round picks forfeited. A 2012 1st gone due to Ingram trade.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Saints try to draft better the next few years, but too many holes+old roster. Not enough resources. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Hopes set on guys like Victory Butler [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Fooled themselves into thinking they were a player or 2 away after 2013. Pull up the Brinks truck for Byrd. Rebuild should've been focus.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Went through a soft rebuild following, almost like there were 2 philosophies in the building. One side rebuild, other win now.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Trading guys like Stills, Sproles and Graham to "build the defense" yet signing guys like Browner... Spiller. Drafting SJB's and ####.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]So now they've blown up the Scouting Dept. The financial situation is still year to year but better. Been more patient on draft day.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Blown up the coaching staff outside of the top. Letting young guys contribute. It will be interesting. Is it too little too late?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Oh, forgot about the coaching. Consistently had no vision on defense. Completely lost on that side of the ball.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Gregg Williams outta hear. Lets get back to fundamental football and hire SpagNOLA. One of the worst defenses in NFL History.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Sean reinstated from suspension. 1st thing? Get Spags outta here. "We're changing to a 3-4 defense" because Yes. Hire Mr. Rob .[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]The 3-4 didn't work because of our roster. But Rob coached a solid defense in 2013. But Seahawks set the standard for dominant defense.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Then Sean Payton wanted to be the Seahawks defense. Lets get big corners and a rangy free safety. Signed Byrd. Drafted SJB. Reuped Klew.[/SIZE]
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[SIZE=12pt][/SIZE]

- I do think it's an interesting point that the Saints seem almost like they have had two different people calling the shots with two philosophies.

We'd go into rebuild mode.... and make big free agent signings as though we were just a few players away.

And the back and forth on the defensive philosophy with Payton unable to make up his mind on strategy or get along with any DC.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
This is a pretty good thread on the front office struggles of the Saints recently.

- I do think it's an interesting point that the Saints seem almost like they have had two different people calling the shots with two philosophies.

We'd go into rebuild mode.... and make big free agent signings as though we were just a few players away.

And the back and forth on the defensive philosophy with Payton unable to make up his mind on strategy or get along with any DC.
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Spags and his defense's effectiveness was predicated on the front 4 being "good". Our sack leader was Jordan with 8. We allowed 5 yards a carry. It was all or nothing as a scheme. We were obviously not a fit for what he wanted to do. It should come as no surprise because Gregg had to manufacture pressure with Roman Harper all the time.

 
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