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*** Official Russia vs. Ukraine Discussion - Invasion has begun *** (5 Viewers)

Fat Nick said:
I know we generally stay out of assassination attempts on foreign dictators with whom we are not at war with - at least formally  ;)

...I will say that when I read the article about the failed Chechen Rebel assassination attempt on Zelnskyy yesterday, I immediately thought that we may have some of our own who could help make something like this happen without US involvement formally, and that attempt sort of opened that door a little.  I don't, however, think that will happen.  The risk is far too great.
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Ahem...

"In 1972, a crack commando unit was sent to prison by a military court for a crime they didn't commit. These men promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade to the Los Angeles underground. Today, still wanted by the government they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them....maybe you can hire The A-Team."

 
Tom Servo said:
Ahem...

"In 1972, a crack commando unit was sent to prison by a military court for a crime they didn't commit. These men promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade to the Los Angeles underground. Today, still wanted by the government they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them....maybe you can hire The A-Team."
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Hey.  The laughing response emoji is back.  Thanks @Joe Bryant  :thumbup:

 
culdeus said:
Why is Russia just claiming Nazi here except to push further West?  Why this over just saying there are "terrorists" and pull a page out of the Bush playbook?  Feels like an extra step here that makes no sense
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I read something about this a while ago. There is a cultural explanation that I will try to summarize, hopefully correctly. In the US, we associate any reference to "Nazi" primarily with the holocaust and white supremacists, for obvious reasons. The mention of Hitler and Nazism really just brings up that one main concept for us.  For Russians, Nazis are more associated with "our enemy" or "the guys who invaded us and killed millions of us."  So whereas we use a generic reference to "terrorists" (as you suggest) to conjure up notions of uber bad guys, the Russians use the term "Nazi" for the same purpose, entirely separate and apart from the Holocaust, concentration camps, etc.

 
culdeus said:
Why is Russia just claiming Nazi here except to push further West?  Why this over just saying there are "terrorists" and pull a page out of the Bush playbook?  Feels like an extra step here that makes no sense
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From what I understand, memory of Russia's efforts and loss of life fighting Germany in WWII still resonate in that country. They were a huge reason why Hitler was defeated. So "de-nazifying" is term that conjures up patriotism and national pride, as opposed to simply fighting "terrorism".

 
Doug B said:
Was reading about this on another board and via links not posted into this thread. The oligarchs, generally, are not independent actors. There are apparently some that can oppose Putin from a distance, but probably not many that can foment something against Putin internally.
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Some of the oligarchs seem like capos in a mafia organization. They are just kicking back up to the top. 

 
beer 30 said:
Got a bunch James Bond's up in here now. He's the leader of the second most powerful country in the world, he isn't getting assassinated.

What we should push for is removal from within by his block of power. Targeting his circle of supports through sanctions accomplishes this and forces them to re-think support for this guy. I think of it kinda like the NFL. The owners have Roger Goodell as their mouthpiece and give him a fair amount of latitude but if he went rogue and laid bare all the information they have known about CTE, guessing they would reign him in and probably fire him pretty quick. Same kinda thing with Putin and the oligarchs just a different stage. 
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Well Russia does have a long and rich history on that front. And he probably has just as many enemies at home as abroad. Roger Goodell? I think it's more like Tony Soprano. These guys probably all kick back up to him. But one or more of them might be able to take him out if he let his guard down, which he almost certainly won't. 

 
otb_lifer said:
not without the comission's approval they don't ... lest there's a Gotti over there - he's the only one that ever went off the reservation. 
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I think the people most likely to be in the Commission in this case is NOT the oligarchs, but the inner circle in the government/military, and if they make a move to take him out, the oligarchs would be happy to go along.

 
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I think it was on Derek Thompson's podcast that his guest was talking about the fact that there aren't just a bunch of homogenous "oligarchs".  Those that made their money in the 80s and 90s mostly don't like Putin as they made their money before he was in charge and he's been more of a pain to many of them, and then there are those that are rich because of Putin and his corruption.  It's the second group that most of us are thinking of when we all are hoping they get all their #### taken and they somehow pressure Putin to back off (or get disappeared).

 
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@BNONews: BREAKING: UK calls emergency meeting of the UN Security Council after fighting at nuclear plant in Ukraine

 
JaxBill said:
@BNONews: BREAKING: UK calls emergency meeting of the UN Security Council after fighting at nuclear plant in Ukraine
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Did they ever kick Russia off that council? I’m still dumbfounded that they’re the Security Council chair, because they’re probably in the bottom 1 of who should be in that position right now.

 
Although Russia is well acquainted with a Scorched Earth policy, are they trying to invent the Glowing Earth Policy?

 
It’s time to stop the use of the word “oligarch”.
 

The name imparts some sort of elite hierarchy, when they’re really just greedy, connected, business men, with extremely loose morals. That will do anything to enrich themselves. F em

 
@mrsorokaa: ⚡️Occupied regional capital Kherson is going full Orwell today.

Russians seized the local TV tower & began airing Russian propaganda networks. Now, SBU says they are moving in people from Crimea to stage a scene where Russian troops are greeted as “liberators.”

“War is Peace.”

 
Jayrod said:
I've mentioned it earlier, but India really seems to hate the West.  Not sure if it's their history with UK or something we've done more recently or a combination of both.
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It's weird.  I've known quite a few Indians, and they all seem like they grew up in Iowa in terms of their level of "foreign-ness" for lack of a better word.  Then you see stuff like this and it's hard to believe it's the same country.  I assume the type of Indian who goes to college in the US and stays here probably isn't the same at all as the median Indian.

 
Jayrod said:
I've mentioned it earlier, but India really seems to hate the West.  Not sure if it's their history with UK or something we've done more recently or a combination of both.
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IvanKaramazov said:
It's weird.  I've known quite a few Indians, and they all seem like they grew up in Iowa in terms of their level of "foreign-ness" for lack of a better word.  Then you see stuff like this and it's hard to believe it's the same country.  I assume the type of Indian who goes to college in the US and stays here probably isn't the same at all as the median Indian.
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I have many Indian customers.  They are friendlier to me than my "American" customers.  None of them have any intention of residing in India again.  All just seem like great people.  Most seem like better parents and "citizens" than the typical American.  

 
Jayrod said:
I've mentioned it earlier, but India really seems to hate the West.  Not sure if it's their history with UK or something we've done more recently or a combination of both.
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I watch some of these anti scammer videos on YouTube as white noise.  It's 100% clear there is a pure hatred there.  They have zero qualms about coming for US/UK money from those that can't afford it.  

Definitely has colored my perception.  So to see them them side with Russia here isn't shocking.   

There is also a deep hate how the US takes their best people, which surely plays a role.  

 
Maybe it's just me but this seems like it's an important day in this invasion. 

- Russia has been hitting civilian targets for several days and key cities have been heavily damaged.

- Russian forces have been inching their way to Kyiv from multiple directions.

- what repercussions does Russia face for the attack on nuclear plant and other war crimes? 

- can US and other nations afford to increase sanctions to include Russian oil? With the Russian stock market closed for a fifth day, would that push the Russian economy over the edge?

- it seems like if NATO/UN are going to act, it needs to be in next 48 hours

 
Kal El said:
That’s even dumber(though I do remember hearing that before now, thanks for the reminder), at least remove them from the chair spot.
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Pretty sure it rotates

Jayrod said:
I've mentioned it earlier, but India really seems to hate the West.  Not sure if it's their history with UK or something we've done more recently or a combination of both.
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Our almost total reliance on Pakistan for the last 15-20 years in regards to Afghanistan comes to mind. Prior to, I'm pretty sure we were in bed with India and opposed Pakistan's militant regime. 9/11 happens and they are our best pals. Might be misremembering but I think that's how it went down.

 
Barring WW3, Ukraine is not going to have the same borders anymore when this is over.  So what is acceptable to Ukraine and the international community?  They need to start negotiating that now, or be prepared for NATO/USA to escalate this.  Otherwise, we are just prolonging innocents lives being destroyed.  

 
IvanKaramazov said:
It's weird.  I've known quite a few Indians, and they all seem like they grew up in Iowa in terms of their level of "foreign-ness" for lack of a better word.  Then you see stuff like this and it's hard to believe it's the same country.  I assume the type of Indian who goes to college in the US and stays here probably isn't the same at all as the median Indian.
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Yes, "Americanized" Indians are totally different.  I have an Indian friend who grew up there until like 12, then went to boarding school in Ireland and then to the US for college & med school and then became a US citizen and is a doctor.

He's as "Yay 'Merica" as they come and has zero accent.  One of the smartest guys I know as well.

 
Leeroy Jenkins said:
Barring WW3, Ukraine is not going to have the same borders anymore when this is over.  So what is acceptable to Ukraine and the international community?  They need to start negotiating that now, or be prepared for NATO/USA to escalate this.  Otherwise, we are just prolonging innocents lives being destroyed.  
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I think this is true.  I think as long as Putin doesn't escalate much further, he's at least obtained Crimea and the Donbas for Russia.  He is walking a fine line, though, because the international community will punish Russia for this mess and give it all back to Ukraine if there is any EU or NATO involvement.

I starting to think we will have a long drawn out process over the next 10-20 months.  A lot depends on if Ukraine can hold Kyiv and keep Zelenskyy alive or at least maintain a semblance of governance and organized military.  I believe the latter will be achieved because of all of the international assistance, even if they have to relocate to Lviv.

 
DA RAIDERS said:
It’s time to stop the use of the word “oligarch”.

The name imparts some sort of elite hierarchy, when they’re really just greedy, connected, business men, with extremely loose morals. That will do anything to enrich themselves. F em
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I agree with this, but "greedy, connected, business men with extremely loose morals that will do anything to enrich themselves" doesn't roll off the tongue the same way. 

I fear that once all major cities fall to Russia countries will start to waver and will cede to Putin. He'll get what he wanted, and will wait a year or so and then launch his next incursion. What a mess. 

 
Jayrod said:
I think this is true.  I think as long as Putin doesn't escalate much further, he's at least obtained Crimea and the Donbas for Russia.  He is walking a fine line, though, because the international community will punish Russia for this mess and give it all back to Ukraine if there is any EU or NATO involvement.

I starting to think we will have a long drawn out process over the next 10-20 months.  A lot depends on if Ukraine can hold Kyiv and keep Zelenskyy alive or at least maintain a semblance of governance and organized military.  I believe the latter will be achieved because of all of the international assistance, even if they have to relocate to Lviv.
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Russia probably wants Kyiv, but I don't think Ukraine will want to give it up.  This is like Jerusalem in Israel for Russian Orthodoxy, and Putin is basically wanting a religious revolution.  This is a holy war for him.  Ukraine is their religious ancestral home.  

 
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