This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Alex Ferguson in an unusually straightforward opinion:
Ferguson usually is right up there with the most one-eyed of managers and never accepts criticism of his players but he seems to be concerned that Young's theatrics might cost him - and United - eventually.
I see. So contrary to your earlier statement, we DO actually know what would have happened if the goal hadn't been given. The game I saw ended 5-1. What was the final score in your alternate universe?
Yeah, we know the subs likely would have been different. Redknapp is fairly predicable in that regard. As to what the final outcome would have been I don't know. It clearly would have been different though.
Fair enough. I haven't seen the game or the goal in question, I just saw this on another forum and thought I'd bring it up.
This was the game=changer 2nd mistake by the ref.Yeah- I hate the rule too, but even with Bale there Cech should be sent off... according to how I've seen the rule called.
It does make sense. But I still see it as Adebayor being denied a goal or obvious goal-scoring opportunity, so still a red. To me, that Bale is there is secondary (my own gut-feeling about how this stupid rule should be called, not a letter perfect understanding of the stupid rule)
The view I watched during the game showed contact- or at least I saw contact- but as I wrote... oh yeah... later- Young kicked the defender, not the other way around- and he had to change the direction of his stride to do it. Shameless.
Who? the people who say it actually IS a goal? that pretty clearly shows that the whole ball hasn't crossed the line. It does show that it crosses the line more than I thought it had, and forgives the ref a bit.
and managers can help create a culture in the locker room and training ground that dissuades this kind of behaviour. I don't think of United players as divers typically- at least the ones that came up through the academy, and I don't remember this kind of diving happening from them since... well Nani does dive a bit, yeah.. but since Ronaldo- and I am one of his apologists who thinks due to the inordinate amount of taking guys on he does that he ends up drawing a ton of contact and fouls more than he's given credit for (but yeah, he dives and yeah, he shamelessly throws the histrionics).
I don't remember intent being required for handball. That said, I haven't seen the play in question, but Busquets is one of the worst embellisher/divers I've ever seen, so I'll just go ahead and say he's guilty.
ANd what's worse... well- no, that's pretty bad... but what's also worth discussing is that he's not playing well.
I agree with Jonesed here.How both sides are managed AND play at 1-0 or 1-1 is far different than what happens at 2-0.
I'll not argue that the knock out format and single game championship format of the CL doesn't lend to some different tactics being played by clubs, in particular trying not to conceded the dreaded away goal.However, I pretty strongly disagree with the first part of your statement.Would you rather have "bragging rights" that your team is the best club in the country, or the best club in Europe, hence the world, because when it comes right down to it, you'd be hard pressed to find any soccer enthusiast to argue that all of the best clubs/players are in Europe. I'd take the best club in the world title every day of the week.Further, it has been said time and time again that this year's Manchester United team is "dreadful" "One of their worst of recent memory", and so forth. Every pundit seems to be of the opinion this is a weaker United side then seen in year's past. Is this because of their domestic results? I hardly think so, it is much more the result of their early CL exit.This year's United team has a decent shot of getting the most points ever for a United team in the premier leagueTo compare/contrast against recent United sides:the 2010/2011 side had 80 pts with 78 gf, 37 ga for a 41 gdthe 2008/2009 side had 90 pts with 68 gf, 24 ga for a 44 gd (uhh, Tevez, Rooney, Ronaldo, Berbatov)the 2007/2008 side had 87 pts with 80 gf, 22 ga for a 58 gdthis year's United side has 82 pts, with 82 gf, 28 ga for a 54 gd.....and 4 games remaining to be playedSo why is this year's side so terrible? I don't really think it's because their b-teamers lost out in Carling Cup or FA Cup games before the semi-finals. I definitely think the sentiment is such because of their lack of success in Europe. And while the premier league title will be a nice one to add to their trophy shelf if they are fortunate enough to continue their lucky run this year, I think that will be secondary, and this team will hardly be remembered for their accomplishments, but rather for what they failed to win in Europe. The 07/08 side won the CL, the 08/09 were runners up to Barcelona, as were the 10/11 side. That's why this year team is dreadful, hardly because they will be probably the second most successful premier league team ever, possibly behind only the 04/05 Chelsea team.
My point is that Bale got the goal back 5 minutes later and the game was at 2-1 ten minutes into the second half. So as egregious as the call may have been, it was significantly mitigated shortly after and was anyone's game with plenty of time left. In the end, it was 5-1. I get that a goal changes a game, and a wrongfully given goal is a major issue that usually ruins a game. Any fan of any team has seen calls go for and against them many times, including game-changing calls. I think its generally poor form to whine about calls not given after a loss, but is particularly poor when the game ends 5-1. Spurs could have risen to the occasion after Bale's goal, overcome the bad call and had plenty of opportunity to win the game. Instead, they cocked up an offside trap and gave Ramieres an easy one, then essentially folded. Drogba abused Gallas all day long, and I thought Adebayor, after all his pre-game crowing, basically stopped running early in the second half. I think Carlo played very well in goal overall, but probably should have done better on Lampard's free kick. Chelsea fans have had precious little to be happy about this season and were hugely disappointed very recently by Spurs 0-0 at home in a huge league game, so I was not inclined last night to let those comments pass.
I don't think that's the case. Going to the finals of FA Cup and the semis of the CL is pretty dang good. Especially because they are the only English team left in European play.
Love the new avatar. Think this might provide some fuel for the final?Chelsea fans boo during moment of silence for Hillsborough victims
Handling the ballHandling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with
Borussia Dortmund 22-6-3 72 69:23 +46 Bayern München 20-4-7 64 69:20 +49While I'm sure Europa League games don't bring in as much money as Champions League games, I think this move would be hurting plenty of the smaller countries and clubs.By my calculations a total of 135 teams qualified to play in the Europa League this current season and 76 in the Champions League. So is he talking about taking a total of 211 teams and cutting it down to just 64?
From what I gather, at least in England, no one really wants to play in the Europa League anyway. I doubt it would be missed.
most of the participants enter before the group stage. Currently there are 76 in CL but only 32 make group. He's not saying the qualification goes away. So to extrapolate that out it's more like 152 total.
penalty. His arm is extended and this is viewed as deliberate. The basic rule of thumb for refs is that if the arm is extended up or away from the body, it's a foul. Essentially, the player deliberately placed his arm there.Verdict here guysenalty or not?http://i44.tinypic.com/33lkq5k.gif
Penalty. Arm should have been down. Need to watch that in the box.Verdict here guys
If your hands are away from your body that's generally interpreted as intent regardless of whether or not you made the movement toward the ball after it was kicked. I think that's where people get mixed up with regard to intent.
It was a penalty but funnily enough not for the first handball. The penalty was given for the second hand ball (you'll see the players don't react until after that touch).Penalty. Arm should have been down. Need to watch that in the box.Verdict here guys
That would be awesome. I don't like having a "B" tournament, especially when the "B" tournament is generally won by dropouts of the "A" tournament. The structure just doesn't make any sense to me.I think the benefit to the smaller teams would actually increase. They would get additional revenue from playing the bigger clubs and given the drop-down structure linking the two currently I'm not so sure they would neccesarily get knocked out much earlier. Playing a top "B" club is probably harder than playing an "A" club bench, or at least it's reasonably similar.
Exactly right. At least, whether or not one agrees with it, that is indeed the prevailing way of dealing with the law.penalty. His arm is extended and this is viewed as deliberate. The basic rule of thumb for refs is that if the arm is extended up or away from the body, it's a foul. Essentially, the player deliberately placed his arm there.Verdict here guys
This is how I've always regarded it- ball hitting the hand/arm when it's in an un-natural position away from the body; not "intentionally" reaching out for the ball with your hand.
Thanks for posting this, Sinn.
Always good to see the letter of the law... especially for us old players who just know this stuff through osmosis. I don't know that it answers the prevailing question though, even though the "position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an infringement" part tries to get there.
Has there been any more discussino about this? Is it just what Christo wrote, so end of story?
He certainly could have been given a yellow and if it was up to Tottenham I imagine they would have taken the penalty and the red card. Whether the rules allow the goal and the red card I just don't know. Red cards are certainly given after the referee has allowed play to go on, but that's generally in the case of a dangerous play.Tehnically the rule says if a player denies another player a goal scoring opporunity and Cech clearly denied Adebayor that opportunity. It doesn't reference team anywhere, but the newspapers seem pretty consistent in saying that allowing the goal meant no red card. If you want a complete explanation you would probably have to go to a top level referee as to what specific courses of action the rules would allow under varying circumstances.
I'm sure this is what you're getting at when you say "when they can", but I would just like to reiterate that there are situations where players are taught to disengage and go to the ground rather than trying to stay on their feet. I know you know this, but I think it bears repeating.It's easy to criticize when watching on TV, but when you're playing the game at full speed, even the slightest touch can send a player toppling over. Further, I think it's damn near impossible in certain situations for a governing body to determine on review whether a player committed a dive or not. If I'm Ashley Young and I'm making a move in the box and the defender inadvertently steps on my foot, I'm probably going to lose my balance and fall down whether I want to or not. There is the issue of a player going down on no contact, but I think you could potentially make the case that nearly any player who engages in contact may be knocked off-balance and not be "diving", as we refer to it.The idea of going to ground too easily is an issue, no doubt, but that's going to happen with the nature of the game. The risk/reward for going down at the slightest touch in the box heavily favors flopping, assuming the player isn't already on a yellow. I do have a problem with the embellishment. There's no need to lay out like Superman (re: Bonzai's pic) and then writhe around for 2 minutes on the field until the trainers bring out the magic spray. I agree with the general point that the games should be reviewed by the governing body, but I'd honestly be a little wary of the governing body being a little too liberal with the punishment. Of course, given the FA's track record on this matter so far, I don't think that's a worry....
The soccer's governing bodies move at a pace that is rather inexplicable really. The FA is actually one of the more pro-active bodies as hard as that is to believe. I imagine if they were seperated from FIFA a lot of this stuff would have already been implemented (goal-line technology, post-game diving punishment, etc.)FIFA wants to keep the game "pure", but with a revenue stream that comes from people that live in a modern world. We are already starting to see tension between UEFA and FIFA. It will be interesting to see how things develop in a post-Blatter FIFA. The money is in Europe and the European leagues, but they don't drive the bus.Z might be able to better explain how the Spanish fans look at this as well. It seems to me both Spain and Italy seem more accepting of the current flaws as being just part of the game. I don't have the greatest perspective though.'Steve Tasker said:
You wouldn't know it from the amount of #####ing that the supporters do right after the games. They blame the refs for almost anything. They are more tolerant of going to ground in general though. I think they view penalties and fouls as part of the game. Even if Barça and RM get the vast majority of calls going their way, especially at home.
