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***Official Soccer Discussion Thread*** (4 Viewers)

If you want to see what I'm talking about, go here:

US-Italy

Go to the "Pitch" tab and then scroll through all the tactical views. For the vast mojority of the time on the Italian side 8 Gattuso, 10 De Rossi, and 21 Pirlo are forming triangles in teh middle of the field (that does break down a lttile once Gattuso comes out for Montolivo) and then look or middle...Bradley is literally sitting there with the other CF (whether its Feilhaber or Clark before the RC). Go to the 0-15 minute time period and just look at how better Italy is spaced if De Rossi has the ball (he can easily go to iether Pirlo or Gattuso versus if Bradley had the ball...Bradley would basically have to go outside to Bornstein or kick up up the field to the left and hope. It's just not a strategy that works against good teams that can go around two men in the middle. Heck pull up the Egypt game and even when Bradley goes forward, Clark is right there with him.
While this is interesting stuff, I don't think it is necessarily a fair representation given we had 10 men the majority of that game. Also, that was a 4-5-1 lineup not a 4-4-2 that we played yesterday. In the 4-4-2, your wings need to play more defense and I don't think it fits LD and Dempsey well. This is a little bit of our dilemma. We have a lot of middies that aren't really good at ball possession whether that be just holding or defending which is why we struggle with possession so often. Possession is also minimized because some of them don't have the highest work rate either. The only time I got mad watching yesterdays game was when Felheiber came on and put a pass out wide I think to Dempsey and then just sat down in the middle. He didn't flash forward or back to give Dempsey an option and there was simply no where to go with the ball. Bradley came up but was marked well and Benny just sat in a hole that gave no angle to pass him the ball. I can forgive these things late in games when players are tired. I know sometimes you just are exhausted, have made long runs, and you don't give the effort to keep a marginal attack going. But in this case, Benny had just come on. And while Demps turned it over, it was Benny's fault*. All he had to do is drop like 10 feet and it was an easy pass. Really, all he had to do was start moving in just about any direction and it was an easy pass. These are the kinds of things that our middies do way too often.

While that is coaching, that is not the kind of coaching I expect Bradley to have to do at a national team level. That should happen at the club level. You can talk about positioning and our formations, but some of the soccer IQ and work rate among our national team players just seems really low at times.

* Not trying to pick on Benny at all bc tbh it's been pretty rare as I've watched him that this is a fault of his (while I can think of 3-4 players off the top of my head that are constantly doing this). Just that particular example was pretty egregious and on my mind.

 
ESPN just got Setanta's EPL rights...will show 46 matches this year. I assume that includes the US rights too

 
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Although ESPN looks to have landed US rights to La Liga!

======================================

According to SBJ, "ESPN has reached a one-year, sublicensing agreement with GolTV for rights to Spain’s La Liga, bringing more than 95 matches of top-flight Spanish soccer to ESPN360, ESPN2 and ESPN Deportes".

The financial terms of the deal will be announced later on this week. According to this news, "Sublicensing La Liga allows ESPN to continue to broadcast top-flight, European soccer on ESPN Deportes and ESPN360 despite losing the Champions League. It also gives the media company the rights to broadcast games featuring three of the world’s biggest stars — Lionel Messi of Barcelona and Kaka and Cristiano Ronaldo of Real Madrid."

In summary, it allows ESPN Deportes to air 95 La Liga regular-season matches live in Spanish and ESPN360 will simulcast those matches live in English during the 2009-10 season. In addition,ESPN2 will broadcast 20 games. ESPN Deportes and ESPN360 also pick up rights to Spain’s domestic tournament, Copa del Rey.

 
Although ESPN looks to have landed US rights to La Liga!

======================================

According to SBJ, "ESPN has reached a one-year, sublicensing agreement with GolTV for rights to Spain’s La Liga, bringing more than 95 matches of top-flight Spanish soccer to ESPN360, ESPN2 and ESPN Deportes".

The financial terms of the deal will be announced later on this week. According to this news, "Sublicensing La Liga allows ESPN to continue to broadcast top-flight, European soccer on ESPN Deportes and ESPN360 despite losing the Champions League. It also gives the media company the rights to broadcast games featuring three of the world’s biggest stars — Lionel Messi of Barcelona and Kaka and Cristiano Ronaldo of Real Madrid."

In summary, it allows ESPN Deportes to air 95 La Liga regular-season matches live in Spanish and ESPN360 will simulcast those matches live in English during the 2009-10 season. In addition,ESPN2 will broadcast 20 games. ESPN Deportes and ESPN360 also pick up rights to Spain’s domestic tournament, Copa del Rey.
This is great news for people like me who don't have Goltv but would like to see some Liga games. The report I saw said they would include both classico games in the 20 game package on ESPN2. If history is a guide, those games will likely be in HD (as well as the EPL games they are showing). The potential downside - If I was ever going to make the time investment to follow the MSL, this is probably the final nail in that coffin. There are only so many hours in a week that i can devote to my televised sports addictions.
 
Although ESPN looks to have landed US rights to La Liga!

======================================

According to SBJ, "ESPN has reached a one-year, sublicensing agreement with GolTV for rights to Spain’s La Liga, bringing more than 95 matches of top-flight Spanish soccer to ESPN360, ESPN2 and ESPN Deportes".

The financial terms of the deal will be announced later on this week. According to this news, "Sublicensing La Liga allows ESPN to continue to broadcast top-flight, European soccer on ESPN Deportes and ESPN360 despite losing the Champions League. It also gives the media company the rights to broadcast games featuring three of the world’s biggest stars — Lionel Messi of Barcelona and Kaka and Cristiano Ronaldo of Real Madrid."

In summary, it allows ESPN Deportes to air 95 La Liga regular-season matches live in Spanish and ESPN360 will simulcast those matches live in English during the 2009-10 season. In addition,ESPN2 will broadcast 20 games. ESPN Deportes and ESPN360 also pick up rights to Spain’s domestic tournament, Copa del Rey.
This is great news for people like me who don't have Goltv but would like to see some Liga games. The report I saw said they would include both classico games in the 20 game package on ESPN2. If history is a guide, those games will likely be in HD (as well as the EPL games they are showing). The potential downside - If I was ever going to make the time investment to follow the MSL, this is probably the final nail in that coffin. There are only so many hours in a week that i can devote to my televised sports addictions.
Not such fantastic news since the majority are going to be on Espn Deportes, which is harder to get hold of than Goltv.
 
Just came back from vacation with 6 games on my DVR and no idea what happens....US vs. Brazil :shrug:

I'm excited to see Sacha in the lineup...hopefully he doesn't disappoint....

 
Although ESPN looks to have landed US rights to La Liga!

======================================

According to SBJ, "ESPN has reached a one-year, sublicensing agreement with GolTV for rights to Spain’s La Liga, bringing more than 95 matches of top-flight Spanish soccer to ESPN360, ESPN2 and ESPN Deportes".

The financial terms of the deal will be announced later on this week. According to this news, "Sublicensing La Liga allows ESPN to continue to broadcast top-flight, European soccer on ESPN Deportes and ESPN360 despite losing the Champions League. It also gives the media company the rights to broadcast games featuring three of the world’s biggest stars — Lionel Messi of Barcelona and Kaka and Cristiano Ronaldo of Real Madrid."

In summary, it allows ESPN Deportes to air 95 La Liga regular-season matches live in Spanish and ESPN360 will simulcast those matches live in English during the 2009-10 season. In addition,ESPN2 will broadcast 20 games. ESPN Deportes and ESPN360 also pick up rights to Spain’s domestic tournament, Copa del Rey.
This is great news for people like me who don't have Goltv but would like to see some Liga games. The report I saw said they would include both classico games in the 20 game package on ESPN2. If history is a guide, those games will likely be in HD (as well as the EPL games they are showing). The potential downside - If I was ever going to make the time investment to follow the MSL, this is probably the final nail in that coffin. There are only so many hours in a week that i can devote to my televised sports addictions.
Not such fantastic news since the majority are going to be on Espn Deportes, which is harder to get hold of than Goltv.
ESPN2 will televise 20 games, including both classicos, which is a great improvement for me as compared to the zero Liga games I saw this past season.
ESPN2 will televise about 20 matches per season, and ESPN Deportes two or three per weekend of league play for a total of at least 95. At least 114 matches per season will be available online on ESPN360. ESPN's networks will also share rights to Spain's Copa del Rey.

...

The league's most-watched games, the two El Classic matchups between Barcelona and Real Madrid, likely will be simulcast by GolTV and ESPN.
 
Although ESPN looks to have landed US rights to La Liga!

======================================

According to SBJ, "ESPN has reached a one-year, sublicensing agreement with GolTV for rights to Spain’s La Liga, bringing more than 95 matches of top-flight Spanish soccer to ESPN360, ESPN2 and ESPN Deportes".

The financial terms of the deal will be announced later on this week. According to this news, "Sublicensing La Liga allows ESPN to continue to broadcast top-flight, European soccer on ESPN Deportes and ESPN360 despite losing the Champions League. It also gives the media company the rights to broadcast games featuring three of the world’s biggest stars — Lionel Messi of Barcelona and Kaka and Cristiano Ronaldo of Real Madrid."

In summary, it allows ESPN Deportes to air 95 La Liga regular-season matches live in Spanish and ESPN360 will simulcast those matches live in English during the 2009-10 season. In addition,ESPN2 will broadcast 20 games. ESPN Deportes and ESPN360 also pick up rights to Spain’s domestic tournament, Copa del Rey.
This is great news for people like me who don't have Goltv but would like to see some Liga games. The report I saw said they would include both classico games in the 20 game package on ESPN2. If history is a guide, those games will likely be in HD (as well as the EPL games they are showing). The potential downside - If I was ever going to make the time investment to follow the MSL, this is probably the final nail in that coffin. There are only so many hours in a week that i can devote to my televised sports addictions.
Not such fantastic news since the majority are going to be on Espn Deportes, which is harder to get hold of than Goltv.
ESPN2 will televise 20 games, including both classicos, which is a great improvement for me as compared to the zero Liga games I saw this past season.
ESPN2 will televise about 20 matches per season, and ESPN Deportes two or three per weekend of league play for a total of at least 95. At least 114 matches per season will be available online on ESPN360. ESPN's networks will also share rights to Spain's Copa del Rey.

...

The league's most-watched games, the two El Classic matchups between Barcelona and Real Madrid, likely will be simulcast by GolTV and ESPN.
Do you know if all of the games are going to be simulcast between the stations? Having to get Deportes to watch the Barca games each week would be extremely disappointing from my perspective.
 
If you want to see what I'm talking about, go here:

US-Italy

Go to the "Pitch" tab and then scroll through all the tactical views. For the vast mojority of the time on the Italian side 8 Gattuso, 10 De Rossi, and 21 Pirlo are forming triangles in teh middle of the field (that does break down a lttile once Gattuso comes out for Montolivo) and then look or middle...Bradley is literally sitting there with the other CF (whether its Feilhaber or Clark before the RC). Go to the 0-15 minute time period and just look at how better Italy is spaced if De Rossi has the ball (he can easily go to iether Pirlo or Gattuso versus if Bradley had the ball...Bradley would basically have to go outside to Bornstein or kick up up the field to the left and hope. It's just not a strategy that works against good teams that can go around two men in the middle. Heck pull up the Egypt game and even when Bradley goes forward, Clark is right there with him.
The US was giving Italy all they could handle up until the red card. The PK gave us a chance to lock down and lock it in. It didn't happen.The interesting thing is that Italy looked horrible and uneasy throughout the tournament. Losing to US despite being up a man? Finally getting back in to form by using triangles and a few nice bounces\pushes. But to lose to Egypt and get routed by Brazil? Italians must be screaming at Team Azul.

All that said, the US looked equally confused and misaligned. Attacks have been tentative and looked more like one push possessions too often.

 
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Just came back from vacation with 6 games on my DVR and no idea what happens....US vs. Brazil :popcorn:I'm excited to see Sacha in the lineup...hopefully he doesn't disappoint....
You are in for a few interesting hours.
I managed to go like 5 days without turning on ESPN. I just finished watching the US get manhandled 3-0 by Brazil.Depressed, I went downstairs and made dinner. I pulled out the Buffalo News sports section, didn't think anything of it. The News NEVER writes about soccer, even during the World Cup. I read it while eating...US Open golf...AAA baseball...and then the back pageA big ### picture of Clint Dempsey with the headline "US WINS, ADVANCES TO SECOND ROUND":popcorn:
 
Just came back from vacation with 6 games on my DVR and no idea what happens....US vs. Brazil :popcorn:I'm excited to see Sacha in the lineup...hopefully he doesn't disappoint....
You are in for a few interesting hours.
I managed to go like 5 days without turning on ESPN. I just finished watching the US get manhandled 3-0 by Brazil.Depressed, I went downstairs and made dinner. I pulled out the Buffalo News sports section, didn't think anything of it. The News NEVER writes about soccer, even during the World Cup. I read it while eating...US Open golf...AAA baseball...and then the back pageA big ### picture of Clint Dempsey with the headline "US WINS, ADVANCES TO SECOND ROUND":popcorn:
Tough break man. You got all the downside of US Soccer this week without any of the upside. Bummer.
 
Just came back from vacation with 6 games on my DVR and no idea what happens....US vs. Brazil :popcorn:I'm excited to see Sacha in the lineup...hopefully he doesn't disappoint....
You are in for a few interesting hours.
I managed to go like 5 days without turning on ESPN. I just finished watching the US get manhandled 3-0 by Brazil.Depressed, I went downstairs and made dinner. I pulled out the Buffalo News sports section, didn't think anything of it. The News NEVER writes about soccer, even during the World Cup. I read it while eating...US Open golf...AAA baseball...and then the back pageA big ### picture of Clint Dempsey with the headline "US WINS, ADVANCES TO SECOND ROUND":popcorn:
Tough break man. You got all the downside of US Soccer this week without any of the upside. Bummer.
So....Egypt is going to crush the Italians here. Brazil is going to beat Italy in the later game, and US is going to have a monster win over Egypt to make it to the next round?I'll still watch it, it's still good, but would've been better if I didn't know.This must be a monumental collapse for the Azzurri. If the US and Italy couldn't both go through, at least one of them did and it wasn't Brazil and Egypt :banned: .
 
The nice thing about the Tivoed Brazil/Italy game is all the goals come in about 7 minutes starting at the 37ish mark of the first half.

 
So- I was all stoked that the US was going to get another game out of this (avert your eyes, ST... oh #### it) against the best team in the world at that. But I just found out, it's TWO games! They'll play in either the championship :shrug: or the third place game next. :wub: ... that result yesterday was absolutely priceless on so many levels.

BTW- I thought South Africa looked good against Spain and great against New Zealand... well coached, disciplined team with nice flair getting forward. I wouldn't be at all surpised if their game with Brasil turns into a real barn-burner.

So... will the US revert to a 4-5-1 to try and dampen the Spanish MF and hope for a counter, or do they stick with the better-looking 4-4-2 (and same lineup as vs Egypt, other than Howard's return)?

 
:goodposting: at Tasker on sat delay of 6 daysIts sad that he could be kept in the dark on the score for 6 days though
I actually find it pretty remarkable. Say what you will about ESPN, but they've been promoting the hell out of this tournament and its been in pretty much every paper.
 
:goodposting: at Tasker on sat delay of 6 daysIts sad that he could be kept in the dark on the score for 6 days though
I actually find it pretty remarkable. Say what you will about ESPN, but they've been promoting the hell out of this tournament and its been in pretty much every paper.
It wasn't really that hard though. We were (kinda literally) in the wilderness since Thursday. They had the 2 ESPNs and Setanta, but I don't really care about golf or baseball, so I just made sure to not turn them on. We had internet access, but I just didn't go here/soccer sites. The only news I've seen/read was the local news on the TV, which didn't mention soccer once.I even made sure to text or call my soccer-watching friends to tell them not to tell me anything.I thought I covered all my bases...
 
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:headbang: at Tasker on sat delay of 6 daysIts sad that he could be kept in the dark on the score for 6 days though
I actually find it pretty remarkable. Say what you will about ESPN, but they've been promoting the hell out of this tournament and its been in pretty much every paper.
It wasn't really that hard though. We were (kinda literally) in the wilderness since Thursday. They had the 2 ESPNs and Setanta, but I don't really care about golf or baseball, so I just made sure to not turn them on. We had internet access, but I just didn't go here/soccer sites. The only news I've seen/read was the local news on the TV, which didn't mention soccer once.I even made sure to text or call my soccer-watching friends to tell them not to tell me anything.I thought I covered all my bases...
Only to get burned by the local paper. That's rough.
 
Tough break bro. At least the US went through.

FWIW, I missed the Egypt game as well. Sunday morning, I was having a picnic in Dolores Park up on the second level with all the gay dudes cruising.

 
score predicitons for Wednesday's game?

I'm gonna go 3-1 Spain with posession at 57/43

 
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score predicitons for Wednesday's game?I'm gonna go 3-1 Spain with posession at 57/43
Well Spain hasn't given up a goal yet in this tournament and the last time they gave up two goals was in August 2007. During Spain's record 35 game unbeaten streak, they have only given up 11 goals. They have shutout Germany, France, Italy, and England (twice) over this span. This is a tough defense to crack. I think your 3-1 prediction is about right but more likely it will be 2-0. The US will need to get lucky on a set piece and play outstanding defense.
 
I am still struggling with this amazing string of events.I know it has to have happened before, but I can't seem to remember a time when a team got second place with 3 points. I think it can only happen one way mathematically: one team goes 3-0 and the remaining 3 teams all go 1-1 against each other.And then add into the mix, going back over 77 games before this one(all the way back to 1984), Italy had lost by 3 or more goals exactly once.The odds of this happening the way they did were massive....
on a side note- Lalas and the ESPN team are saying that Italy was over-run and wiped out by Brasil. Lalas said something along the lines of "If I was an Italian fan, I'd have to be wondering what's happening to my team".Anybody else think the game wasn't as one-sided as that? I mean, other than that freakish 8 minutes goal onslaught, Brasil was more dangerous attacking, but it looked fairly even and competitive between the two teams IMO. That 3-0 game was a far, far cry from the 3-0 game against the US, which was clearly a blow-out, regardless of the score.
I agree with Lalas about the Italian team. They had a terrible tournament, and if I were a fan I would be very upset. I predict Spain winning 2-0.Winning 3rd place in this would be HUGE for US. South Africa is a tough game, but they can be had. Play Spain tough, and win 3rd. I don't think there are many better outcomes to wish for going into this.
 
btw- I was talking about the gaame Italy had against Brasil, not how they looked in all three games.

But as I think about the Brasil game- even though they were playing competitively, it looked like Brasil could just choose to go to goal at will... so mebbe I reconsider just how competitive they really were against Brasil.

And they were definitely underwhelming against against the US (although I'd like to give the US some credit for that) and Egypt (ditto).

Alright... I'm changing my song- time to worry, Italian fans. I heard Buffon paraphrased on FSC yesterday- he agreed that the team needed to get younger, but as a guy who earns his living in Serie A, he just didn't see the young players good enough to oust the older guys. That's another sign for worry.

 
As is typical in soccer, teams peak at odd times. The Italian team was definitely clicking on all cylinders in WC2006. Since then they've had a disappointing Euros (losing to Holland, drawing w/ Romania, and beating France before losing to Spain in the first knockout round in penalties). Since then in WC qualification, they've played barely better than Ireland to sit atop their Group for the automatic bid. Ireland is at 13 pts, with italy at 14 pts, so it's conceivable that they could flip-flop and Italy would have to go to the 2nd round playoff stage to get into the WC2010.

Obviously if Italian fans thought that winning WC2006 was the start of a dynasty or even a prolonged stretch of great Italian football, they've got to be disappointed.

 
how did the refs miss the handball on Egypt? US should have had a PK for sure.
the announcers didn't seem to have a problem with it. went off his chest to his arm. it was unintentional.
They didn't have a problem with the call because they assumed the ref didn't see it since it happened so quickly. Intent only matters with respect to whether a card should have been given. The proper call would have been a penalty but no card.
Just doing some catching up in this thread and came across this post. I am a ref at a fairly high level. Not an international ref but the instruction is all the same and I have received instruciton from some of the best. I did not see the game so can not comment on the call / missed call. However, when determining handling intent is not considered. The jusgement is whether the player used the hand to make themselves bigger. If you say the proper call should have been a penalty then the ref would have had no choice but to show the red card as well for denying an obvious goal scoring opportunity. This is one of the 7 mandatory red card offenses. The descriptions make it sound like it was fairly obious. If so, one thing is for sure and that is that we will not see this ref again in this tournament. On the game - AMazing result from the US. I still can not believe they are in the semi finals. WOW.
 
how did the refs miss the handball on Egypt? US should have had a PK for sure.
the announcers didn't seem to have a problem with it. went off his chest to his arm. it was unintentional.
They didn't have a problem with the call because they assumed the ref didn't see it since it happened so quickly. Intent only matters with respect to whether a card should have been given. The proper call would have been a penalty but no card.
Just doing some catching up in this thread and came across this post. I am a ref at a fairly high level. Not an international ref but the instruction is all the same and I have received instruciton from some of the best. I did not see the game so can not comment on the call / missed call. However, when determining handling intent is not considered. The jusgement is whether the player used the hand to make themselves bigger. If you say the proper call should have been a penalty then the ref would have had no choice but to show the red card as well for denying an obvious goal scoring opportunity. This is one of the 7 mandatory red card offenses. The descriptions make it sound like it was fairly obious. If so, one thing is for sure and that is that we will not see this ref again in this tournament. On the game - AMazing result from the US. I still can not believe they are in the semi finals. WOW.
Then you were taught wrong. The rule is a red card is given when you deny "the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-scoringopportunity by deliberately handling the ball."

FIFA

See p.36.

 
how did the refs miss the handball on Egypt? US should have had a PK for sure.
the announcers didn't seem to have a problem with it. went off his chest to his arm. it was unintentional.
They didn't have a problem with the call because they assumed the ref didn't see it since it happened so quickly. Intent only matters with respect to whether a card should have been given. The proper call would have been a penalty but no card.
Just doing some catching up in this thread and came across this post. I am a ref at a fairly high level. Not an international ref but the instruction is all the same and I have received instruciton from some of the best. I did not see the game so can not comment on the call / missed call. However, when determining handling intent is not considered. The jusgement is whether the player used the hand to make themselves bigger. If you say the proper call should have been a penalty then the ref would have had no choice but to show the red card as well for denying an obvious goal scoring opportunity. This is one of the 7 mandatory red card offenses. The descriptions make it sound like it was fairly obious. If so, one thing is for sure and that is that we will not see this ref again in this tournament. On the game - AMazing result from the US. I still can not believe they are in the semi finals. WOW.
Then you were taught wrong. The rule is a red card is given when you deny "the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-scoringopportunity by deliberately handling the ball."

FIFA

See p.36.
I know the Laws of the Game well. Yes deliberately is in the law book. However, intent, as you stated, would have the referee trying to read the players mind. The questions you ask yourself here are Was the players hand in a natural or unnatural position?

Was the player trying to make himself larger - instruction from this year - with his hands or amrs?

There are many more. The point I am making was that in this case - on the goal line - had the ref blown the whistle for the Penalty he would have been forced to give a red card. Otherwise what are you stopping the game for? There is no PK here without a send off. That was what I was trying to say. Perhaps not all that clear.

 
I know the Laws of the Game well. Yes deliberately is in the law book. However, intent, as you stated, would have the referee trying to read the players mind. The questions you ask yourself here are Was the players hand in a natural or unnatural position? Was the player trying to make himself larger - instruction from this year - with his hands or amrs? There are many more. The point I am making was that in this case - on the goal line - had the ref blown the whistle for the Penalty he would have been forced to give a red card. Otherwise what are you stopping the game for? There is no PK here without a send off. That was what I was trying to say. Perhaps not all that clear.
That just seems counter-intuitive. Say I'm a FB who's tasked with marking the front post on a corner kick. As the ball comes into the box I keep hold of the post so I don't drift. If a forward heads the ball and it strikes my arm on the goal line a penalty would be awarded and I would be sent off because it had the effect of making me bigger. But if the exact same situation happened and I didn't grab the post but the ball merely struck my arm preventing it from crossing the line, there's no card and no penalty? Even though my arm prevented the ball from going in the goal in both situations?
 
I know the Laws of the Game well. Yes deliberately is in the law book. However, intent, as you stated, would have the referee trying to read the players mind. The questions you ask yourself here are Was the players hand in a natural or unnatural position? Was the player trying to make himself larger - instruction from this year - with his hands or amrs? There are many more. The point I am making was that in this case - on the goal line - had the ref blown the whistle for the Penalty he would have been forced to give a red card. Otherwise what are you stopping the game for? There is no PK here without a send off. That was what I was trying to say. Perhaps not all that clear.
That just seems counter-intuitive. Say I'm a FB who's tasked with marking the front post on a corner kick. As the ball comes into the box I keep hold of the post so I don't drift. If a forward heads the ball and it strikes my arm on the goal line a penalty would be awarded and I would be sent off because it had the effect of making me bigger. But if the exact same situation happened and I didn't grab the post but the ball merely struck my arm preventing it from crossing the line, there's no card and no penalty? Even though my arm prevented the ball from going in the goal in both situations?
Ahhh... And now Christo my friend you see the beauty of being a soccer referee. These decisions can be difficult. I should have probably added one of the other questions we ask ourselves in these situations. Did the ball hit the hand or did hand hit the ball. Yes, you can say that if the hand hits the ball then there is intent. At the goal line what we are looking for is whether the defender is making hismelf bigger by extending his arms / hands in such a manner that impeded the oppositions opportunity to score. In the case above it would depend on where you were holding onto the post. If you were side by side with the post and you were holding onto the post with your left or right hand how could the ball hit your hand unless it were already inside the netting fully or out of play? If you are holding onto the goal post with your hand above your head, why one would do that I would not know, but let's say you were then yes you could potentially have a PK awarded and a red card for DOGSO by hand. Why you say, because what are the natural positions of ones arms? Either by their side or in an L shape when running. Not above your head. Same situation, the ball strikes your hand and your hands are in what would be considered natural positions then there would be no fould and no reason to stop the game. Clear as mud and therefore the reason why there is so much confusion around handling in soccer.
 
I know the Laws of the Game well. Yes deliberately is in the law book. However, intent, as you stated, would have the referee trying to read the players mind. The questions you ask yourself here are

Was the players hand in a natural or unnatural position?

Was the player trying to make himself larger - instruction from this year - with his hands or amrs?

There are many more. The point I am making was that in this case - on the goal line - had the ref blown the whistle for the Penalty he would have been forced to give a red card. Otherwise what are you stopping the game for? There is no PK here without a send off. That was what I was trying to say. Perhaps not all that clear.
That just seems counter-intuitive. Say I'm a FB who's tasked with marking the front post on a corner kick. As the ball comes into the box I keep hold of the post so I don't drift. If a forward heads the ball and it strikes my arm on the goal line a penalty would be awarded and I would be sent off because it had the effect of making me bigger. But if the exact same situation happened and I didn't grab the post but the ball merely struck my arm preventing it from crossing the line, there's no card and no penalty? Even though my arm prevented the ball from going in the goal in both situations?
Ahhh... And now Christo my friend you see the beauty of being a soccer referee. These decisions can be difficult. I should have probably added one of the other questions we ask ourselves in these situations. Did the ball hit the hand or did hand hit the ball. Yes, you can say that if the hand hits the ball then there is intent. At the goal line what we are looking for is whether the defender is making hismelf bigger by extending his arms / hands in such a manner that impeded the oppositions opportunity to score. In the case above it would depend on where you were holding onto the post. If you were side by side with the post and you were holding onto the post with your left or right hand how could the ball hit your hand unless it were already inside the netting fully or out of play? If you are holding onto the goal post with your hand above your head, why one would do that I would not know, but let's say you were then yes you could potentially have a PK awarded and a red card for DOGSO by hand. Why you say, because what are the natural positions of ones arms? Either by their side or in an L shape when running. Not above your head. Same situation, the ball strikes your hand and your hands are in what would be considered natural positions then there would be no fould and no reason to stop the game.

Clear as mud and therefore the reason why there is so much confusion around handling in soccer.
reading this still gets me all riled up thinking about Berhalters lunge that was block by a German arm in the 2002 WC quarter finals against Germany on the friggan goal line.3:45 of this clip.

Watch the whole clip. It is just amazing to see the German players collapse at the final whistle. They literally hung on for dear life...

 
I know the Laws of the Game well. Yes deliberately is in the law book. However, intent, as you stated, would have the referee trying to read the players mind. The questions you ask yourself here are

Was the players hand in a natural or unnatural position?

Was the player trying to make himself larger - instruction from this year - with his hands or amrs?

There are many more. The point I am making was that in this case - on the goal line - had the ref blown the whistle for the Penalty he would have been forced to give a red card. Otherwise what are you stopping the game for? There is no PK here without a send off. That was what I was trying to say. Perhaps not all that clear.
That just seems counter-intuitive. Say I'm a FB who's tasked with marking the front post on a corner kick. As the ball comes into the box I keep hold of the post so I don't drift. If a forward heads the ball and it strikes my arm on the goal line a penalty would be awarded and I would be sent off because it had the effect of making me bigger. But if the exact same situation happened and I didn't grab the post but the ball merely struck my arm preventing it from crossing the line, there's no card and no penalty? Even though my arm prevented the ball from going in the goal in both situations?
Ahhh... And now Christo my friend you see the beauty of being a soccer referee. These decisions can be difficult. I should have probably added one of the other questions we ask ourselves in these situations. Did the ball hit the hand or did hand hit the ball. Yes, you can say that if the hand hits the ball then there is intent. At the goal line what we are looking for is whether the defender is making hismelf bigger by extending his arms / hands in such a manner that impeded the oppositions opportunity to score. In the case above it would depend on where you were holding onto the post. If you were side by side with the post and you were holding onto the post with your left or right hand how could the ball hit your hand unless it were already inside the netting fully or out of play? If you are holding onto the goal post with your hand above your head, why one would do that I would not know, but let's say you were then yes you could potentially have a PK awarded and a red card for DOGSO by hand. Why you say, because what are the natural positions of ones arms? Either by their side or in an L shape when running. Not above your head. Same situation, the ball strikes your hand and your hands are in what would be considered natural positions then there would be no fould and no reason to stop the game.

Clear as mud and therefore the reason why there is so much confusion around handling in soccer.
reading this still gets me all riled up thinking about Berhalters lunge that was block by a German arm in the 2002 WC quarter finals against Germany on the friggan goal line.3:45 of this clip.

Oh yes. It still bugs me as a fan. You may have noticed that you did not see that referee again on a big stage after that for a FIFA assignment. You do not make mistakes like that and then continue on a long career as a FIFA referee.
 
In the interests of honesty and integrity on handball/PK/red card calls, the rule book should really just instruct the referee to "go with your gut".

 
re: US v Egypt handball... it was a clear handball, but a bang-bang play with the ball deflecting into the defender's hand. He was not "making himself bigger" (as was the case v Brasil in game one), he was just covering the goal-line, but without keeping his hands pressed to his sides... the offending hand seemed to move "naturally" as he moved- not swinging out to deliberately handle the ball.

Easy PK, less easy card.

 
re: US v Egypt handball... it was a clear handball, but a bang-bang play with the ball deflecting into the defender's hand. He was not "making himself bigger" (as was the case v Brasil in game one), he was just covering the goal-line, but without keeping his hands pressed to his sides... the offending hand seemed to move "naturally" as he moved- not swinging out to deliberately handle the ball. Easy PK, less easy card.
There you go El Floppo and potentially why he did not award the PK. If you give the PK there you must give the red. This is what is called having the courage and character to make the right call at the right time even though there are dire consequences - i.e. a red card.
 

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