***Official Soccer Discussion Thread*** (10 Viewers)

[The Z Machine]

I'm not going to go down this road again (tried it like 100 pages ago and had everyone jumping down my throat). But the fact is that US soccer is not going to get the elite US athlete (for the most part). The best athletes Italy produces play soccer. Same thing in Spain (for the most part), England, Brazil, German, ect. Does the US team have some GREAT athletes? (going by the traditional definition...size, speed, quickness, ect) Of course. But in terms of pure athletic talent, we're still behind the power teams. If great athletes like Chris Paul, Allen Iverson, Reggie Bush, Chris Johnson (just picking a few guys out of the air that might have the right size and speed to excel at soccer) were born in Europe, they'd have grown up playing soccer. In the US, they play football and hoops.

I don't disagree, but I don't think you need to be the same kind of athlete to be a great soccer player. I liken it more to being a tennis-player type of athlete rather than a football player. I got caught up in an argument in the FFA awhile back about how great of an athlete Rafael Nadal is. I don't think you can really distinguish between a guy like Chris Paul and a guy like Rafael Nadal - they're both great athletes, but they're athletes in different ways.I don't know, I still think it's a copout. No, the best pure athletes in the US don't play soccer generally, but there are 300+ million people in America. And with the player development that we have right now, you can take the 11 best athletes that you can think of (the Lebron Jameses of the world) and imagine them as playing soccer only from their youth. I still don't think we'd be much better than we are now. Would we be a little better? Probably. Would we be a top 5-10 team in the world? I really don't think so

I agree totally.This isn't an athletic prowess thing. There are lots of athletically gifted people in the US, and many of them even played soccer as youths. However, athleticism doesn't translate into winning on the soccer pitch. Sure it helps, but "soccer instincts" and tactical/technical training help a LOT more. There's a reason that a nation like Holland or even Ireland and Scotland can put out decent quality national sides. The Netherlands has 16+ million people, over 80% of which are ethnically dutch (not to say anything horrible, but the dutch aren't known for their explosive athleticism...). That's not a lot of people to select from. Yet they have a deep and talented group of soccer players, capable of doing damage and making the top 4 of any competition they enter. That's pretty impressive.So in just comparing the number of soccer playing youngsters in the Netherlands to the number in the US, I'm sure that the US has 10x as many players. Yet, we don't have a decent left back at all. Explain me that.

 

[Steve Tasker]

obvously, there are diferent types of athletes. Obviously a 6'9 guy like Lebron might have trouble with soccer. However, it would be great to see him try.that being said, NFL RB's are generally like 5'11 200 lbs and lightening fast. Great stregnth, quick feet, great balance, good reflexes and peripheral vision. All those traits would transfer quite nicely to the soccer field. Defensive backs? same thing.Lots of NBA guards in the 5'11 to 6'4 range have similar traits that i think would work for a soccer player.Obviously this whole conversation is a tad silly, but i dont think its a total cop out. If germany produces a 6'3 athlete with tremendous vision, high sports IQ and good speed, he plays in the midfield. That same person born in the US becomes a quarterback or a guard. Its a built in disadvantage that the US has to overcome.

It's definitely a disadvantage. The only reason I called it a "copout" is because I can't think of a better term for it. I mean it as like an excuse - I don't think it'll ever change in my lifetime, but that shouldn't stop us from progressing.I really think a lot of the discrepancy is in the youth systems and young player development. I'll use football as an example because I've worked in college football in the past. The gap in coaching intelligence between the average high school football coach and the average high school soccer coach is HUGE. Not a knock on Acer, cause I know he coaches soccer, but my high school soccer coach was an earth science teacher who liked sports. Didn't know a damn thing about soccer. But the high school football coaches I've met are always well-versed in the spread offense, zone blitz schemes, etc.Say you've got a great athlete, a Chris Paul type, at age 10. If he chooses football, he's got decent local coaches, a strong high school coach, and a ton of support coaching (position coaches, offensive coordinators, etc.), and people who instill a lot of good habits and tactics at a young age. He gets a shot at an Elite 11 camp, etc.If he chooses soccer, he gets kids parents who know nothing about soccer, a high school earth science teacher, and very little individual development. When I played premier, we had a head coach and a goalkeeper's coach. I know most high school football teams don't have a super-extensive coaching staff, but they have more than soccer.I just think there's some problems with the way we develop soccer players in this country. You can take the best athletes we have, and I think they'll turn out like Jozy Altidore and Landon Donovan, not Cristiano Ronaldo and Didier Drogba.

 

[TLEF316]

well, i disagree that we wouldnt be noticably better. There are literally hundreds and hundreds of elite athletes (faster, quicker and stronger than probably any soccer player that the US produced) that probably never touched a soccer ball.

 

[TLEF316]

agreed, player development is a HUGE part of it. Honestly, i'd say its at least half the problem.

 

[The Z Machine]

We're about a 1/2 hour away from kickoff here. I'm getting ansy. Gonna have to leave work soon to grab a seat at the pub.

 

[TLEF316]

TIVO'ing the game. Have to remind myself not to go to any sports websites or this thread for the rest of the day. Go US.

 

[Mjolnirs]

I'm recording the game, but won't get to watch it until later tonight. Considering my team's first game is tonight I'm pretty sure someone at the field will have watched the game. Therefore I'll try and find a TV at work or watch the ticker. There's no way I make it until tonight without knowing the results.

 

[Steve Tasker]

I'm recording the game, but won't get to watch it until later tonight. Considering my team's first game is tonight I'm pretty sure someone at the field will have watched the game. Therefore I'll try and find a TV at work or watch the ticker. There's no way I make it until tonight without knowing the results.

I had this happen during the Champions League final's evening. Thankfully no one said anything.

 

[TLEF316]

the lineup is up on CNNSI

Howard

Gooch, Demerit

Spector, bocanegra

Clarke, Bradley, Donovan, Dempsey

Jozy, Davies

Spanish lineup is typical i believe..

Casillas

Ramos, Pique, Pujol, Capdevilla

Alonso, Fabergas,Xavi, Riera

Villa, Torres

Jesus thats a lot of talent.

I think Spain wins 2-0. Maybe 3 if the US goes a man down (the ref is the same one that tossed Mastroeni and Pope against Italy in 06)

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Ives posted these lineups:

PRE-GAME- Spain doesn't really use a right winger here, Fabregas will be more central, with Sergio Ramos having the run of the right flank. Bocanegra vs. Ramos should be a good battle.

--------------------------

PRE-GAME- Spain is coming out in a 4-4-2:

-------------Torres--------Villa---------

Riera--------Xavi----------Fabregas-------

--------------------Alonso---------------------

Capdevila---Puyol----Pique--------Ramos

-------------------Casillas--------------------

--------------------------

PRE-GAME- Bob Bradley goes with the back four that makes the most sense. Jonathan Bornstein hasn't done terribly, but the back four of Bocanegra-Onyewu-DeMerit-Spector is pretty rock solid.

--------------------------

PRE-GAME- Here is the USA lineup:

--------------Altidore--------Davies--------------

Donovan--------------------------------Dempsey

-----------------Bradley------Clark----------------

Bocanegra----Onyewu-----DeMerit----Spector

-------------------------Howard-------------------

--------------------------

 

[prefontaine]

Spanish lineup is typical i believe..

Casillas

Ramos, Pique, Pujol, Capdevilla

Alonso, Fabergas,Xavi, Riera

Villa, Torres



Jesus thats a lot of talent.

I think Spain wins 2-0. Maybe 3 if the US goes a man down (the ref is the same one that tossed Mastroeni and Pope against Italy in 06)

Pretty scary that Iniesta and Senna aren't playing and they can still put this kind of lineup out there. Sick sick midfield talent they have.

 

[Steve Tasker]

This is Davies' chance to really make an impact on the USMNT, I think. If he plays well today...

 

[Moe.]

say no to racism, folks.

 

[TLEF316]

ok, no more checking in. GLLL peas

 

[CletiusMaximus]

I'm looking forward to seeing this back 4 working together as I think this could be our best group looking forward to next summer. Ives also noted that Gooch matched up directly with Torres in the Champions League recently and reportedly was solid. Certainly our back 4 and midfield will get a huge test today.

He also noted that our ref today is Jorge Larrionda, the guy who sent off two yanks in the WC '06 game against Italy.

 

[Steve Tasker]

Yep, Jorge Larrionda as the ref.

 

[Steve Tasker]

I'm looking forward to seeing this back 4 working together as I think this could be our best group looking forward to next summer. Ives also noted that Gooch matched up directly with Torres in the Champions League recently and reportedly was solid. Certainly our back 4 and midfield will get a huge test today.He also noted that our ref today is Jorge Larrionda, the guy who sent off two yanks in the WC '06 game against Italy.

I agree with the defense, but I think I'd prefer Cherundolo over Demerit. Either way, they're looking like our best backline options right now.

 

[prefontaine]

espn camera work is annoying me here

 

[Steve Tasker]

Weak yellow for Donovan there.

 

[Christo]

Another thing I think the USMNT, and US youth system in general, is lacking is instruction on how to move without the ball/general game intelligence. Flat out, Eddie Johnson has absolutely no ####### clue what to do when he doesn't have the ball. And I know he doesn't get as much PT these days, but Jozy has looked Eddie-esque in the Confederations Cup. Put a ball into their feet or on Jozy's head and he's a finisher. Ask him to make a run and he is ####### clueless. Case in point is that Donovan-Altidore 2-on-1 against Egypt. Jozy should've been making a beeline for the backpost, and Donovan knew it. Jozy stopped his run at the top of the 18. Why?

My gut reaction to that play was that Jozy showed more instinct than Donovan, who should have shot the ball on goal. Altidore was putting himself in position for a rebound clean up goal.

Don't agree with that at all. A rebound would have most likely headed away from where Jozy was running after he made the cut.

 

[prefontaine]

Really like what Davies is bringing to the table. Starting to really like this guy

 

[Moe.]

Really like what Davies is bringing to the table. Starting to really like this guy

yup, doing a lot to cement a spot...that was an awesome attempt there.

 

[Bonzai]

Impressive stuff from Davies.

 

[prefontaine]

Holy #### we are getting a lot of good opportunities. This is the best I think we've looked in forever

 

[Steve Tasker]

Really like what Davies is bringing to the table. Starting to really like this guy

Nice flick there too but Altidore couldn't get it. at these announcers now saying the exact same thing that I said a few minutes ago - this is a HUGE opportunity for Davies....the US needs another striker to assert himself.

 

[DevilsTrifecta]

USA looking really good so far

 

[Steve Tasker]

Perfect example of my "we're lacking a good first touch" comment there - Donovan completely flubs the nice backheel from Davies and gives it away.

 

[Bonzai]

I was giving Altidore a pass for his work rate coming back from injury, but I'm afraid he just might be a lazy player.

 

[Steve Tasker]

I was giving Altidore a pass for his work rate coming back from injury, but I'm afraid he just might be a lazy player.

He's been a big disappointment so far this cup, IMO. I know he was hurt but I was hoping for more.

 

[Genedoc]

We're looking like we almost belong. 20 minutes in and we seem to be doing OK.

 

[Steve Tasker]

I stand by my assertion that Sergio Ramos is the best two-way player in the world...

 

[prefontaine]

Wtf Boca!?!

 

[Bonzai]

I was giving Altidore a pass for his work rate coming back from injury, but I'm afraid he just might be a lazy player.

He's been a big disappointment so far this cup, IMO. I know he was hurt but I was hoping for more.

He reminds me of Shaun Alexander.

 

[Steve Tasker]

Spector plays the ball back to Demerit.

Demerit has no one open.

Does Spector get out wide and show for the return pass? No, he just stands there, completely marked by a Spanish player.

 

[Steve Tasker]

JOZY

 

[prefontaine]

OMGOMGOMG

 

[whoknew]

JOZY!!!!

 

[Steve Tasker]

Put a ball at his feet, and he can finish!!!

Phenomenal turn right there. Absolutely phenomenal.

 

[Genedoc]

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

 

[Bonzai]

WOOOOOOO!

 

[Mjolnirs]

 

[prefontaine]

Are you kidding me with the yellow?

Btw, great use of his body there

 

[Moe.]

great work by dempsey and davies, ####### hell yes.

 

[Genedoc]

The yellow card for celebration is very NFLian.

 

[Moe.]

The yellow card for celebration is very NFLian.

cant take your shirt off, seems to be auto when they do that.

 

[Steve Tasker]

The yellow card for celebration is very NFLian.

Pretty standard rule though, you can't take your shirt off. Otherwise he would've been fine.

 

[Steve Tasker]

Spain looks really pissed...

 

[Doctor Detroit]

 

[Steve Tasker]

at Torres and Howard with the awkward Everton-Liverpool hello

 

[Genedoc]

Shouldn't that have been a foul there? Looked like our dude was tackled from behind without the ball being contacted.