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***Official Soccer Discussion Thread*** (3 Viewers)

The Gator said:
Thought this was interesting;

Falcao to Monaco move explained-

You have probably all already seen that Falcao is destined for Monaco. There were a lot of rumors about a potential move to Manchester United, Chelsea, Real Madrid and others - so why does he end up moving to Monaco?

The answer is because of the complicated third-party ownership involved with Falcao. There was a very similar situation with Hulk when he moved to Zenit.

To explain this, we need to take a step back and first see how third party ownership works. Those in England would have previously seen this topic as it reached prominence when Carlos Tevez and Javier Mascherano signed for West Ham United. Here were two stars from Argentina signing for a club in London who were struggling to stay in the top flight. The controversy lead to West Ham paying compensation of £18M to Sheffield United, and lead the FA to ban third party ownership.

But third party ownership is still alive and well on the continent. It is most often applied with South American stars making the jump across the Atlantic to Europe. The way it works is that investment groups will purchase the registration rights of an upcoming player. This is sometimes done while the player is at a club, and sometimes as part of a transfer.

For eg. one scenario would be that a 16 year old star in South America would be approached by an agent and asked if he wants backing with marketing and making it big in Europe. These deals usually involve paying the player a better salary, hooking him up with a better agent, better management, sponsorship deals etc. If and when the player agrees, the third party owners will then go to the club he is registered to and negotiate to buy his registration rights - either all of or part of.

The player is then in the hands of the management and third party ownership group, who manage every aspect of his career from that point on. That usually involves paying him a larger salary on top of his club salary, placing him in clubs where he will get more exposure, etc.

The other way third-party ownership happens is that the investment group finances a transfer for a player. For eg. Porto want to sign a player from Brasil but don't have the funds, they would approach an investment group and have them stake 50-60% of the deal in return for the players registration rights.

The investment group make all of this upfront investment with the hope that at some point in the future the player proves himself, becomes a star, and can then exit at a very large valuation.

Some examples: Tevez and Mascherano were placed into West Ham by their investment group as a way of getting them more exposure. It worked out well in both cases as Liverpool purchased Mascherano (buying out the investment group and giving them a good return) and City eventually ended up buying out Tevez - albeit via Manchester United (who never owned the entirety of his transfer rights).

Back to Falcao. He was purchased by a third-party ownership group as part of his transfer to Porto. They bought 55% (likely more) of his transfer rights, supplemented his salary while he was paying at Porto and then moved him to Atletico for the purpose of getting him more exposure (likely with an eye on moving him eventually to Real Madrid). During the time Falcao was there, the investors were supplementing his wages again (infact paying most of them) and working on negotiating his big move which would see them cash out.

Porto's financials show the following for the Falcao transfer:

sale of 60% of the economic rights of the player Bolatti to the entity Natland Financieringsmaatschappij B.V., on July 2009, by the amount of, approximately, 1,500,000 Euro, (transaction perform under the acquisition process of 40% of the registration of Falcao)

There is another section where it is disclosed that they sold another 5% option in Falcao, and another section where it is disclosed that there is an option for a third party to purchase a further 10%.

The same filing shows that Porto only owned 45% of Hulk.

What is more interesting is who is involved in the Falcao ownership. The group is called Doyen Sports and it was founded by Jorge Mendes (most famous as Ronaldo's agent, but an infamous player agent who is involved in a lot of third-party deals) and Peter Kenyon (former Chelsea chairman).

On their website they have a page for Falcao and you can also see the other players listed. Falcao, like Hulk, ended up in a situation where there was so much invested in him that it would take a lot of money for the investors to see a return (known as being highly leveraged). They were paying his salary for a few seasons, had floated Atleti some money to keep them alive (they got some shirt sponsorship in return) and had made the initial investment when he first transferred.

Falcao ends up moving to Atletico in a 40M move - despite Atleti the previous season stating that they had to clear players out because of their 220M euro tax bill with the Spanish government. What this ended up being is a 20 + 20M deal. 20M never gets paid because its just the third-party owners paying themselves, and of the other 20M only 16M is owed by Atleti, who take an option of paying in two 8M installments (they were late on the first one, to the point of Porto suing). End situation is that around 60% of the rights are with the Doylen group. It also appears that while Falcao was at Atletico that Doylen took an option for a larger stake in him since Atleti were late on their payments. Something weird happen which involved Doylen taking a sponsorship. Either way, they had the majority stake and Atletico had no say or control of the player. For all purposes it was nothing more than a loan with Atletico having a small stake in his registration rights.

The president of Atletico Madrid continuously insisted that they own all the rights to Falcao, but this simply isn't true.

Falcao is on a wage of 10M euro per year, and the return the investors wanted is 60M euro in transfer fee. This narrows down the list of potential clubs that can buy you out to very few. Atletico had no say in where Falcao goes, they had an option in the winter transfer window, but that expired. The owners needed their return and they were going to get it one way or the other.

The list can be narrowed down to PSG, Monaco, Real Madrid, Chelsea and City. City aren't making large investments any longer, PSG have their fix of strikers. Of the remaining three, it is apparent that Real Madrid didn't want to pay up the 60M + 50M in contracts for Falcao (for whatever reason). Apparently Chelsea matched the 60M clause but to pay Falcao the 10M per season in wages would involve a total gross salary of 300k+ per week, which just isn't manageable. Chelsea also have the issue of not being allowed to directly purchase a player from a third-party owner (apparently this is what turned ManU off a move) so it would have required a two-step sale with Falcao going to one club outright and then to Chelsea. Apparently with the David Luiz transfer on the same day he moved to Chelsea Benfica bought out the entirety of his rights from third-party owners (so you can summize that Chelsea gave them the money to buy out that deal so that they could purchase 100% of Luiz directly from Benfica, thus avoiding the third-party rule in England).

With all of these factors you end up with only one target: Monaco. They have the 60M to pay out the investors, they have the funds to pay his wages of 10M per year and better yet they have no income tax so they don't have to supplement the gross.

So in the end Falcao is moved around Europe by his investors with the only goal of making a return for them. He has little to no say in his final destination because of a deal he agreed to years ago while he was still in South America.

More links:

Click to expand...
bump

Little bit of a read, but a really good read and was nailed on for the Monaco move.

 
jonessed said:
The Gator said:
If the contract numbers floating around are true, he'l get to keep 10M of his 10M contract as apposed to keeping 5M in other countries. That's a pretty freaking big deal imo. They should qualify for the CL next season. They probably aren't done buying and will continue to attract players with their money.
Click to expand...
I hope The French league smacks them with a tax proxy fee to compete. If they want to throw money like this around they should be forced to play by the same rules.
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I agree. The FFF is being nice to even let Monaco play in its league system. They shouldn't get an unfair advantage by being foreign.

On the other hand, part of me wants to side with Monaco just because France's tax rates are so absurdly high.

Monaco's owner is rich enough that the spending probably continues either way.

 
The Z Machine said:
So it looks like Monaco will sign Falcao today. Bummed. He did great things with Atlético, pushing them to their best finish in years, a Champions League spot, and a Copa del Rey win. Those are no small feats, and for that I'm VERY grateful.

So here's what I don't get... Falcao said in the past that he wants Champions League football. He has that at his current club for next year. So what does he do? He signs with a club that's just been promoted, which plays in a league with a poor CL record (only 1 win ever), is ranked 6th in European coefficients, and has only 3 spots for CL play (2 direct to Group). So he'll have to prove himself yet again that he's worthy of a CL spot. I'm not sure I'll be pulling for Monaco nest year...

Obviously, this isn't about CL play, despite what Falcao said prior to this season. It's about the money, and for that I can't blame him. It's just sour grapes that my team has sold off the following strikers in the last few years: Fernando Torres, Kun Agüero, Diego Forlán, and now Radamel Falcao. They're obviously a selling team. Hopefully this influx of money from these sales combined with the CL Group Stage money will move them OUT of the selling game, and into the buying game. It's pretty tough to compete against the bigs when you sell your best players every year (see Arsenal, BvB, etc.)
Click to expand...
In every league there's buyers and sellers - and I certainly can't fault you for bemoaning Atletico's selling of star players.But, I think they've done just fine with their transfers. Smaller money teams needs to be careful with buying and selling and need to take money when they can to replenish the rank and file.

Forlan wasn't really a home grown talent. He was bought for nearly 19 million euros. And he played with Atletico for four years. He had to go and AM was lucky to get what they did for him (look what he's done at Inter)

Torres was Atletico - but they got nearly 34m euro's for him. That's a pretty prodigious sale and they probably needed that money for the transfer of Simao and Forlan tbh.

I think the Arguero sale would be the most I would be upset about if I was a AM supporter. He really blossomed and with him and Forlan, the team really seemed to start hitting their stride and making waves. Yeah, you sell the old guy and build around Kun. But again, 40m euros is not exactly pocket change- that's a huge transfer fee. I know he was young, but they seemed to do well in getting top dollar for him.

All of which leads me to Falcao. Again, not really a home grown talent but it seems AM is reluctant to turn down a tidy profit. If what I'm reading seems to be true, AM bought in Falcao for 40m (profits from the Aguero sale for sure) and will turn him around and sell him in two years for 60m? That's a pretty good return. I'm sure they will find a use for this money elsewhere on their club, no? Along with CL money - they have a good opportunity here to build and bring in more players.

Falcao came from the machine as far as selling talent goes. This article details Porto and is well worth the read:

http://thinkfootball.co.uk/archives/9870

 
Spartans Rule said:
jonessed said:
The Gator said:
If the contract numbers floating around are true, he'l get to keep 10M of his 10M contract as apposed to keeping 5M in other countries. That's a pretty freaking big deal imo. They should qualify for the CL next season. They probably aren't done buying and will continue to attract players with their money.
Click to expand...
I hope The French league smacks them with a tax proxy fee to compete. If they want to throw money like this around they should be forced to play by the same rules.
Click to expand...
I agree. The FFF is being nice to even let Monaco play in its league system. They shouldn't get an unfair advantage by being foreign. On the other hand, part of me wants to side with Monaco just because France's tax rates are so absurdly high. Monaco's owner is rich enough that the spending probably continues either way.
Click to expand...
One could also argue that Ligue 1 is lucky to have Monaco and that it would be extremely stupid to change the rules after an investment has been made. Monaco has a great history with tons of great talent - both French and foreign - and a deep history of success home and abroad. Ligue 1 should be very happy imo to have a chance to add a second super club with this new ownership.
 
France and Monaco have had a treaty regarding taxes for 50 years that also plays into this situation somehow. It apparently was never an issue until Monaco was awash in petrodollars.

Rainier faced a crisis in 1962, when Charles de Gaulle grew fed up with French citizens' taking residence in Monaco to avoid paying income tax. He threatened to isolate the principality and cut off its supply of French francs, the principality's currency until the advent of the euro. In 1963, Rainier agreed to a treaty that decreed that the French citizens who live in Monaco (currently there are some 12,000) have to pay income tax to Paris.
Click to expand...
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9906E3DD153EF933A25757C0A9639C8B63

 
So, who does Atlético go after now with the Falcao money? Or do they sit on it, and the CL money, return to mediocrity and build a new stadium, hope the Spanish economy recovers and that they can rebuild their alienated fan base?

Bah...

 
The Z Machine said:
So, who does Atlético go after now with the Falcao money? Or do they sit on it, and the CL money, return to mediocrity and build a new stadium, hope the Spanish economy recovers and that they can rebuild their alienated fan base?

Bah...
Click to expand...
You didn't really know who Falcao was when Atletico moved for him (I realize he was coming off a successful season at Porto). There's not one guy that they can replace him with. But maybe Bony from Vitesse and some other players in other positions. Maybe trump Tottenham to someone like Damiao or someone else playing in South America. Maybe join the bidding for Jovetic. Or try to outbid the Italian teams bidding on Dzeko.

There's a huge domino effect that seems likely to happen with attackers this summer.

 
Looks like Sacha is getting a start in CM against Belgium tomorrow night. I'm excited to see this, as I still think Sacha/Bradley (who is not available for tomorrow) is my preferred pairing (maybe playing Jones behind as a pure 6 in a balanced 4-3-3).

 
CletiusMaximus said:
The Gator said:
Liverpool have agree to terms with Kolo Toure on a free transfer. Decent move and I think just brought in for leadership and a backup role.
Click to expand...
Kolo's affair - when he posed as a car salesman and hid his identity from a girl in Manchester for over a year - is my favorite off the field footballer story ever. I think he even managed to get married during the affair. Whenever I hear his name I think of the phone picture she took of him in the shower where he looks like Sylvester the cat with the bird feathers sticking out of his mouth. Its really very hard not to laugh out loud at that image to this day. Easily one of my favorite athletes of all time for pulling that off.
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:goodposting:

He's going to get #### at every away game for the rest of his career, and he deserves it fully.

 
In US Open Cup action tonight, the Charleston Battery defeated the San Jose Earthquakes 1-0. The Battery now move to the next round and will play at Real Salt Lake in two weeks.

 
Any reason our boy Jozy isn't rumored to any clubs after scoring 30 goals for AZ? I would've thought he'd be in the papers by now...

 
Native said:
Any reason our boy Jozy isn't rumored to any clubs after scoring 30 goals for AZ? I would've thought he'd be in the papers by now...
Click to expand...
Because the Dutch league is crap, especially on defense? It's not like they dude had been lighting up teams internationally so he's not going to get much love.Now I could see an English team making s play for Bradley though.
 
The Z Machine said:
Also, Carvalho is moving to Monaco as well.
Click to expand...
Valdes is apparently on his way too.

So if Bayern gets Lewandowski, do he and Gotze both start? Muller and Mandkuzic both stay I assume. Kroos?

Who goes? Gomez, obviously. Ribery? Robben?

 
The Z Machine said:
So, who does Atlético go after now with the Falcao money? Or do they sit on it, and the CL money, return to mediocrity and build a new stadium, hope the Spanish economy recovers and that they can rebuild their alienated fan base?

Bah...
Click to expand...
I hear Fernando Torres is available.

 
Native said:
Any reason our boy Jozy isn't rumored to any clubs after scoring 30 goals for AZ? I would've thought he'd be in the papers by now...
Click to expand...
He is. I've heard Fiorentina, Real Betis, Sevilla, and West Ham. With that said, Jozy was still only the 4th high scorer in the Eredivisie (2nd in Holland in all competitions due to excellent cup record). A lot of strikers figure to move and that second and third tier has not been set and probably won't until Lewandowski, Falcao, and Cavani end up where they will.It's also true that top scorers in Holland have mixed results in other leagues. For every Suarez and Huntelaar there is a Alves or Bas Dost.
 
Good Posting Judge said:
The Z Machine said:
Also, Carvalho is moving to Monaco as well.
Click to expand...
Valdes is apparently on his way too.

So if Bayern gets Lewandowski, do he and Gotze both start? Muller and Mandkuzic both stay I assume. Kroos?

Who goes? Gomez, obviously. Ribery? Robben?
Click to expand...
Bayern is going to be playing plenty of matches next year. It sounds like Gomez is a gone for sure, don't see why they'd sell the others.

 
The Z Machine said:
So, who does Atlético go after now with the Falcao money? Or do they sit on it, and the CL money, return to mediocrity and build a new stadium, hope the Spanish economy recovers and that they can rebuild their alienated fan base?

Bah...
Click to expand...
Gotta reload. Lots of strikers on the market this offseason and they have a solid base to build on. Getting Villa or Torres would be a good move and they'd come cheap.

 
The Z Machine said:
Native said:
Any reason our boy Jozy isn't rumored to any clubs after scoring 30 goals for AZ? I would've thought he'd be in the papers by now...
Click to expand...
Because the Dutch league is crap, especially on defense? It's not like they dude had been lighting up teams internationally so he's not going to get much love.Now I could see an English team making s play for Bradley though.
Click to expand...
Jozy might be attractive to one of the recently promoted sides in England, like Palace.

 
Slapdash said:
The Z Machine said:
So, who does Atlético go after now with the Falcao money? Or do they sit on it, and the CL money, return to mediocrity and build a new stadium, hope the Spanish economy recovers and that they can rebuild their alienated fan base? Bah...
Click to expand...
Gotta reload. Lots of strikers on the market this offseason and they have a solid base to build on. Getting Villa or Torres would be a good move and they'd come cheap.
Click to expand...
I think Torres' contract is a problem for most teams, even if the transfer price were heavily discounted. It runs through the summer of 2016 at something like E150k / week. It's hard for Chelsea to eat a significant portion of that even if Abramovich were willing. FFP makes it hard to carry dead wages anymore. Despite the fans clamoring for a big acquisition at striker, I think there's a very good chance CFC stays put with Torres and Ba, maybe recalls Lukaku.
 
The Gator said:
15 and only 2-3 more if I knew how to spell their names

Big misses- Michu, Giroud
Click to expand...
Giroud was my biggest miss as well. I couldn't see past NoveauChateau.

One I was kind of ashamed not to get was Zoltan Gera, because I literally only know one Hungarian player, and he's it. I don't think I even noticed the country on the list. Same with Greece (although I doubt I could have spelled that Fulham's guy's name anyway).

 
Jozy's transfer market value right now seems to be pegged around 7 million euros. That likely prices him out of the relegation fodder teams in most of the big leagues. I doubt AZ will sell him at a cut-rate.

Sevilla makes sense because Negredo looks possibly be poached by another La Liga team with more money. Betis makes sense because their best striker is a 32 year-old journeyman who was just arrested for assaulting his girlfriend (and I don't think anyone thought Castro would net 18 league goals this year). West Ham possibly makes sense because Carroll seems reluctant to commit, and is made of glass, despite the fact that Jozy is a lousy hold up striker and seems particularly ill-suited to Big Sam's style.

Fiorentina is intriguing. They're almost certainly losing Jovetic, but will be getting Rossi back. I have no idea if Rossi is anything near what he was with Villareal. Maybe Jozy could push him for time or maybe they could play together and make every USMNT fan start crying uncontrollably.

There have also been rumblings of offers from Russia and a few hints that relatively large clubs have him on their radar. Decent candidates, it seems to me, are the Fenway Sports Group teams, who might take a slightly larger flyer on the potential of landing a marketable American star. Roma might lose Osvaldo and Lamela isn't really a central player. I think that's the biggest club that's a decent fit, but we don't even know who will be coaching.

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
Jozy's transfer market value right now seems to be pegged around 7 million euros. That likely prices him out of the relegation fodder teams in most of the big leagues. I doubt AZ will sell him at a cut-rate.

Sevilla makes sense because Negredo looks possibly be poached by another La Liga team with more money. Betis makes sense because their best striker is a 32 year-old journeyman who was just arrested for assaulting his girlfriend (and I don't think anyone thought Castro would net 18 league goals this year). West Ham possibly makes sense because Carroll seems reluctant to commit, and is made of glass, despite the fact that Jozy is a lousy hold up striker and seems particularly ill-suited to Big Sam's style.

Fiorentina is intriguing. They're almost certainly losing Jovetic, but will be getting Rossi back. I have no idea if Rossi is anything near what he was with Villareal. Maybe Jozy could push him for time or maybe they could play together and make every USMNT fan start crying uncontrollably.

There have also been rumblings of offers from Russia and a few hints that relatively large clubs have him on their radar. Decent candidates, it seems to me, are the Fenway Sports Group teams, who might take a slightly larger flyer on the potential of landing a marketable American star. Roma might lose Osvaldo and Lamela isn't really a central player. I think that's the biggest club that's a decent fit, but we don't even know who will be coaching.
Click to expand...
In combined TV and other revenue, I just read that promotion to the Premier League for Crystal Palace is worth £120M, and even if they're immediately relegated they get an additional £15M (maybe more) in parachute payments spread out over the following several years. It's a massive amount of money. A mere ~£5M in transfer fees for Altidore (obviously assuming they think he's good enough) is no longer out of reach under those circumstances.

In fact, he may not even command that much anyway given how Americans tend if anything to be undervalued in the market, unlike the typically overvalued English players for example. The smaller PL clubs are going overseas for less expensive foreigners in order to stay up, e.g. Swansea.

 
Slapdash said:
I don't understand why Jozy would be looking to leave a club he has finally been able to perform at after one year.
Click to expand...
:goodposting:

From Jozy's standpoint I think he's best served staying at AZ. He's in a respected, if not elite, pro league, and performing very well. It's not like the USMNT requires elite league playing time in order to get into the squad. I want him to kick ### in the Eredivise for a couple of more years before he thinks about trading up and possibly disappearing in an elite league like the PL where he likely won't really stand out.

 
I think a club like Swansea would be a good fit. They need to bring in another striker and they wouldn't leave him on an island up top. They play entertaining football and their possession and quick passing could be a nice fit.

 
Slapdash said:
I don't understand why Jozy would be looking to leave a club he has finally been able to perform at after one year.
Click to expand...
It's not a matter of looking to leave (and it's been 2 1/2 years, I believe). It's a matter of AZ being a selling club and of Jozy likely maxing out there. AZ was a funny team. They were flirting with the relegation zone until the last month of the season. But they had the goal differential of a Europa League team, and they won the Cup (which I guess makes them a Europa Club team).

AZ can't afford to lose Jozy on a free transfer and he's one of two viable selling assets the team has (along with Maher). By all accounts, Jozy likes it there very much. I do think that he needs to keep looking to move up, especially considering that AZ has catered the offense to him in ways that other teams (and USMNT, for that matter) just won't. Jozy still has a lot to learn, but he's proven to be a good finisher, and a dangerous guy with the ball at is feet. That makes him an asset.

 
On my phone so can't link. Saw this on socceroverthere.com Anyone watch it yet? Christo?

This has nothing to do with anything US Soccer related, but a documentary that I highly enjoyed is now on Youtube. The Four Year Plan is an unbelievable behind-the-scenes look at QPR for a couple seasons as they attempt to earn promotion to the Premier League. I believe it is on Netflix (if you want a high quality version of it), but for those without Netflix, you cancheck it out here. It is amazing to see them earn promotion (spoiler alert!) while some of the people involved are batsh*t crazy.
Click to expand...
 
Sebowski said:
On my phone so can't link. Saw this on socceroverthere.com Anyone watch it yet? Christo?

This has nothing to do with anything US Soccer related, but a documentary that I highly enjoyed is now on Youtube. The Four Year Plan is an unbelievable behind-the-scenes look at QPR for a couple seasons as they attempt to earn promotion to the Premier League. I believe it is on Netflix (if you want a high quality version of it), but for those without Netflix, you cancheck it out here. It is amazing to see them earn promotion (spoiler alert!) while some of the people involved are batsh*t crazy.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Yep, I've seen it. It definitely shows you how blind ambition is a hell of a drug, especially when combined with money, some inept transfers and coaching, and some plain bad luck.

 
The Z Machine said:
GoFishTN said:
The Z Machine said:
Real Madrid is offering 70m€ for Bale.
Click to expand...
Do you have a link, other than the articles with his big mouth agent saying they would listen to an offer?
Click to expand...
Didn´t read the article, translated from Spanish: http://as.com/diarioas/2013/05/29/english/1369844757_215752.html
Click to expand...
Interesting. I don't think he's ever going to be worth more, but selling him will send the wrong signal, unless it's three figures. I'm just glad I'm not Levy.

 
Slapdash said:
Doesn't Bale play the same role as Ronaldo on the left wing?
Click to expand...
Bale can also be a wing back, and he's actually talented enough to either play centrally or perhaps even on the right.

Regardless, he's the sort of talent that I think you jump to get and then figure out where and how to use him.

 
T Bell said:
Slapdash said:
Doesn't Bale play the same role as Ronaldo on the left wing?
Click to expand...
Bale can also be a wing back, and he's actually talented enough to either play centrally or perhaps even on the right. Regardless, he's the sort of talent that I think you jump to get and then figure out where and how to use him.
Click to expand...
absolutely.Plus, he's 4 years younger than Ronaldo.I think he'll be at WHL one more year and then bye bye EPL
 
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