***Official Soccer Discussion Thread*** (5 Viewers)

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

I think this site, which looks at several "offensive" team stats is kind of interesting.

http://www.eplindex.com/32488/the-alternative-premier-league-tables-possession-chances-created-shot-accuracy.html

The author does fall down by not looking at chances or shots conceded. There's an awesome graphic somewhere that looks at all the big European teams in that context that I found really constructive. EDIT: Ah, here they are:

http://experimental361.com/2013/01/21/attacking-effectiveness-europe/

For instance, for all the talk about how Di Canio wants to play more attractive soccer at Sunderland, it seems to me that his first priority has to be limiting the chances his team concedes. MIgnolet somehow had 13 clean sheets while facing nearly twice the number of shots as Lloris did last season. The numbers suggested that probably earned more points than their performance justified and they still were very nearly relegated.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Those charts really are amazing. For instance, you can really see what made Bayern so ridiculous. Bayern allowed less than 8 shots per game, the fewest in Europe. But they also only allowed every 19.5 shots or so. Only PSG was more "efficient" defensively, allowing a goal every 20+ shots, but allowing over 3 more shots a game than Bayern.

You look at the how far Bayern is from any other team in the top left of the chart, and you have to believe its an outlier that any coach, Pep or whoever, will be hard pressed to reproduce.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

On Liverpool's midfield... it just feels off to me.

I like the pairing of Gerrard (still) and Leiva behind Couthino. But I don't think Allen fits into that setup at all. He's a tidy player and I do like watching him, but he doesn't mesh with those three and there's no width there even if you only have one of Allen or Leiva.

Downing and Henderson never seemed to catch my eye in a good way. No idea if that's borne out by the stats or not, but neither guy seemed to add a whole lot when I watch. I don't know anything about the two Spanish players they brought in to replace Downing, or how a true wing player would play with the trio above without unbalancing things.

I think I'd rather see another true two-way player so that you'd have Leiva behind him and Gerrard, with Coutinho in front of them. Still no width though. Will be curious to see what they do this year. (ETA: from a bit of reading it almost sounds like they'll go this route with Henderson in the midfield.)

Speaking of stats... as much as I love numbers to describe the world and use stats to make almost all my FF decisions I've never really looked into the OPTA (etc) stuff for soccer. Anyone want to point me to a good site or the key numbers to track?

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

I thought Henderson was very good at the end of last season. Gerrard was among the top midfielders in assists, particularly considering he lies deep. Factor in Coutinho, and I'm not sure there are many better teams at service from central areas (particularly once Suarez is back). Allen was hurt much of last year, which may have affected his play. Leiva is a guy you play when you want an anchor man. You're sacrificing service to put him in there. Even if he's healthy, I think he'll lose minutes in most games.

 

[SmoovySmoov]

On Liverpool's midfield... it just feels off to me.

I like the pairing of Gerrard (still) and Leiva behind Couthino. But I don't think Allen fits into that setup at all. He's a tidy player and I do like watching him, but he doesn't mesh with those three and there's no width there even if you only have one of Allen or Leiva.

Downing and Henderson never seemed to catch my eye in a good way. No idea if that's borne out by the stats or not, but neither guy seemed to add a whole lot when I watch. I don't know anything about the two Spanish players they brought in to replace Downing, or how a true wing player would play with the trio above without unbalancing things.

I think I'd rather see another true two-way player so that you'd have Leiva behind him and Gerrard, with Coutinho in front of them. Still no width though. Will be curious to see what they do this year.

Speaking of stats... as much as I love numbers to describe the world and use stats to make almost all my FF decisions I've never really looked into the OPTA (etc) stuff for soccer. Anyone want to point me to a good site or the key numbers to track?

Keep an eye on Ibe, and if they can add Willian

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Interesting graphs there RHE. Barcelona's efficiency and Bayern's defense are both insane there.

Liverpool was in a better spot than I expected on both sides of the ball too. They take plenty of shots and don't concede too many, but the quality of attempt is lacking on offense and the chances are too good on D. A small movement on both counts would leave them in pretty good company.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

On stats sites, I'm just starting to try to look at them. I'm also reading The Numbers Game, which is another attempt at a Soccernomics type book. It's better than Soccenomics, but is still asking many of the wrong questions, IMO.

Right now, the numbers feel more descriptive than prescriptive. It's kind of easy to look at the numbers and say, "Man U won the title because RvP was incredibly clinical for much of the EPL season (he did have a long drought)." But that's really what happened. RvP converted chances that turned a number of draws into wins. The question is whether that tells us anything about this season. I suspect it doesn't. But I also suspect that if Man U slips, we'll hear a lot about Moyes not being SAF. And I suspect that won't be the difference.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Interesting graphs there RHE. Barcelona's efficiency and Bayern's defense are both insane there.

Liverpool was in a better spot than I expected on both sides of the ball too. They take plenty of shots and don't concede too many, but the quality of attempt is lacking on offense and the chances are too good on D. A small movement on both counts would leave them in pretty good company.

What that supported, to me, is what my eyes told me. Which is that Reina didn't have a very good season. Mignolet faced 15 shots a game for Sunderland. If he faces the workload that Reina faced, that could be a lot of points in the table if he keeps the same level of efficiency.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Keep an eye on Ibe, and if they can add Willian

Ibe reminds me of Sterling at first glance.

Is the Willian thing legit? I don't follow the rumor mill very closely at all. I also confess that I'd never heard of him until the rumors. What sort of player is he?

 

[Spartans Rule]

If Wolfsburg nick Gustavo from Arsenal, add me to Die Wölfe fan base.

If Wolfsburg nick Gustavo from Arsenal, add me to the suicide help line.

I seriously can't figure out what the hell Arsenal's transfer strategy here is. Gustavo is a no-brainer for them and is even a bargain given his talent level and experience, and yet they're sitting on their hands apparently.

I've read Gus wants upwards of 130K/week for wages. I enjoy busting Wenger's chops, but that's a bit excessive imo.

And 20 million seems a bit excessive as a transfer fee for the fourth or fifth best CM on Bayern.

For one, Ramsay seems to be really blossoming as a holding mid. For another, a guy like Kongodgbia, is probably available for half that. Finally, other guys like Gundogan (his contract talks with Dortmund have broken down) and Khedira may be available if they want to pay a premium price for a player who is far more proven.

Gustavo feels like the exact opposite of a bargain to me.

Kondogbia has a £17M release clause and Sevilla have said they won't sell for anything less. That's the same price I'm hearing for Gustavo now.

Arsenal doesn't really have a truly defensive-minded midfielder right now. Arteta and Ramsey are creative players who will help out on defense, but Gustavo's a destroyer. They need that.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Interesting graphs there RHE. Barcelona's efficiency and Bayern's defense are both insane there.

Liverpool was in a better spot than I expected on both sides of the ball too. They take plenty of shots and don't concede too many, but the quality of attempt is lacking on offense and the chances are too good on D. A small movement on both counts would leave them in pretty good company.

What that supported, to me, is what my eyes told me. Which is that Reina didn't have a very good season. Mignolet faced 15 shots a game for Sunderland. If he faces the workload that Reina faced, that could be a lot of points in the table if he keeps the same level of efficiency.

Has anyone looked at expected goals based on from where shots were taken?

I know in golf some group used shotlink to chart every single shot on the PGA tour for years and took that data to tease out who was really a good putter (for example) and not just hitting their irons/chips close. Seems like that'd be the only way to confirm it was on the keeper and not the defense.

 

[The Gator]

On Liverpool's midfield... it just feels off to me.

I like the pairing of Gerrard (still) and Leiva behind Couthino. But I don't think Allen fits into that setup at all. He's a tidy player and I do like watching him, but he doesn't mesh with those three and there's no width there even if you only have one of Allen or Leiva.

Downing and Henderson never seemed to catch my eye in a good way. No idea if that's borne out by the stats or not, but neither guy seemed to add a whole lot when I watch. I don't know anything about the two Spanish players they brought in to replace Downing, or how a true wing player would play with the trio above without unbalancing things.

I think I'd rather see another true two-way player so that you'd have Leiva behind him and Gerrard, with Coutinho in front of them. Still no width though. Will be curious to see what they do this year.

Speaking of stats... as much as I love numbers to describe the world and use stats to make almost all my FF decisions I've never really looked into the OPTA (etc) stuff for soccer. Anyone want to point me to a good site or the key numbers to track?

Keep an eye on Ibe, and if they can add Willian

Ibe >>>>>> Sterling

 

[Spartans Rule]

Keep an eye on Ibe, and if they can add Willian

Ibe reminds me of Sterling at first glance.

Is the Willian thing legit? I don't follow the rumor mill very closely at all. I also confess that I'd never heard of him until the rumors. What sort of player is he?

Versatile attacking midfielder who can play in the middle or on the wing. He's fast, can dribble, pass and finish. Could really be dangerous paired with Suarez.

 

[Slapdash]

If Wolfsburg nick Gustavo from Arsenal, add me to Die Wölfe fan base.

If Wolfsburg nick Gustavo from Arsenal, add me to the suicide help line.

I seriously can't figure out what the hell Arsenal's transfer strategy here is. Gustavo is a no-brainer for them and is even a bargain given his talent level and experience, and yet they're sitting on their hands apparently.

I've read Gus wants upwards of 130K/week for wages. I enjoy busting Wenger's chops, but that's a bit excessive imo.

And 20 million seems a bit excessive as a transfer fee for the fourth or fifth best CM on Bayern.

For one, Ramsay seems to be really blossoming as a holding mid. For another, a guy like Kongodgbia, is probably available for half that. Finally, other guys like Gundogan (his contract talks with Dortmund have broken down) and Khedira may be available if they want to pay a premium price for a player who is far more proven.

Gustavo feels like the exact opposite of a bargain to me.

Kondogbia has a £17M release clause and Sevilla have said they won't sell for anything less. That's the same price I'm hearing for Gustavo now.

Arsenal doesn't really have a truly defensive-minded midfielder right now. Arteta and Ramsey are creative players who will help out on defense, but Gustavo's a destroyer. They need that.

Gundogan seems like he would be closer to 30 too.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

I guess part of my skepticism about Gustavo lies in asking who that "dedicated destroyer" is who plays for the teams that are above Arsenal in the table? Man U won the league playing Carrick and Cleverly in the middle. Sometimes, very rarely, they'd play Phil Jones to man mark a guy. Toure isn't a dedicated destroyer for City. He's a box to box guy (who they'll pair with another box to box guy). Chelsea only fitfully used a pure DM. Same with Liverpool. Even Everton employed Fellaini more and more as a CAM.

Football is cyclical, but I think the top teams nowadays put far more emphasis on distribution from the holding midfleld spot than on physicality.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Keep an eye on Ibe, and if they can add Willian

Ibe reminds me of Sterling at first glance.

Is the Willian thing legit? I don't follow the rumor mill very closely at all. I also confess that I'd never heard of him until the rumors. What sort of player is he?

Versatile attacking midfielder who can play in the middle or on the wing. He's fast, can dribble, pass and finish. Could really be dangerous paired with Suarez.

Just saw that he scored 20 in 140 appearances for Shaktar. Works out to be about five goals per EPL season. Seems like he's not a huge scorer ... is he more of a #10 or a two-way guy? How would that work with Coutinho?

 

[The Gator]

Keep an eye on Ibe, and if they can add Willian

Ibe reminds me of Sterling at first glance.

Ibe is bigger and faster at 17 than Sterling will ever be. He needs work on his technical skill, but I don't doubt he'll out perform Sterling going forward.

Is the Willian thing legit? I don't follow the rumor mill very closely at all. I also confess that I'd never heard of him until the rumors. What sort of player is he?

It's legit although unlikely imo.

Almost the same type of player as Coutinho..can play AM out wide left.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Arteta out 4-6 weeks for Arsenal. He was their "DM" and did a good job of it though it's not his natural position. The club's win % with/without him is about 65/20.

We've gone from a situation where the team won't be improved to an immediate problem of figuring out how to put together a complete first team plus seven subs for a game.

Two weeks to go and it seems Gazidis is still keeping his powder dry. Those quotes are going to haunt Arsenal fans all year if they don't buy. Swissramble did a typically thorough review of Arsenals spending on Monday - painful for you guys I'd think but worth reading. I'm on mobile today but his blog is easy enough to find.

Meanwhile I was surprised to see that Fellaini's release clause expired. Seemed like good value at £22mil. The Toffees might be in the top 4 range at seasons end.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Looked this up and holy cow is Sterling small -- 5'7", 152. You're right that Ibe is much bigger -- 5'9" and 179.

So you'd envision...

Sturridge/Suarez?

Willian/Coutinho (Henderson)

Leiva/Gerrard (Allen)

As the first choice front six plus subs if that went through? Really need another forward even if Suarez stays.

 

[The Gator]

Looked this up and holy cow is Sterling small -- 5'7", 152. You're right that Ibe is much bigger -- 5'9" and 179.

So you'd envision...

Sturridge/Suarez?

Willian/Coutinho (Henderson)

Leiva/Gerrard (Allen)

As the first choice front six plus subs if that went through? Really need another forward even if Suarez stays.

If(big if) it goes through and after Suarez is back, I think it'd be-

Sturridge(Aspas,Borini)

Willian(ibe,Sterling) Coutinho(Allen,Alberto) Suarez(Aspas,Sterling)

Gerrard(Henderson) Lucas

 

[T Bell]

I made this.

 

[The Gator]

Hfs

 

[Slapdash]

Arteta out 4-6 weeks for Arsenal. He was their "DM" and did a good job of it though it's not his natural position. The club's win % with/without him is about 65/20.

We've gone from a situation where the team won't be improved to an immediate problem of figuring out how to put together a complete first team plus seven subs for a game.

Two weeks to go and it seems Gazidis is still keeping his powder dry. Those quotes are going to haunt Arsenal fans all year if they don't buy. Swissramble did a typically thorough review of Arsenals spending on Monday - painful for you guys I'd think but worth reading. I'm on mobile today but his blog is easy enough to find.

Meanwhile I was surprised to see that Fellaini's release clause expired. Seemed like good value at £22mil. The Toffees might be in the top 4 range at seasons end.

Ooof. That had to hurt.

 

[Christo]

Arteta out 4-6 weeks for Arsenal. He was their "DM" and did a good job of it though it's not his natural position. The club's win % with/without him is about 65/20.

We've gone from a situation where the team won't be improved to an immediate problem of figuring out how to put together a complete first team plus seven subs for a game.

Same with Real Christo

 

[Steve Tasker]

I made this.

So that's where Gator got it from when he tweeted it at me....

 

[Steve Tasker]

Updated list. I think I got everything. Link is always in my sig if you need it....always nice to know who's on your side while arguing in this thread.

This is the official who's a fan of what team(s) post. As many teams/leagues as you want to put in here.

International
United States - everyone (probably?)
Argentina - Sebowski, otello, Gianmarco
Bolivia - Sebowski
Brazil - Desert Power, Z's wife, Derek, Abrantes, SmoovySmoov
Canada - Polsonov?
Croatia - kblitz
Denmark - Major
Egypt - Jmon
England - LHUCKS, SmoovySmoov, AAABatteries, Txns8, theprince, T Bell, Charvik
Germany - Mjolnirs, eagles2007, editor47, Bonzai, Short Corner
Ireland - PIK95
Italy - Steve Tasker, Texas Football, otello, Boubucarow, Gianmarco
Japan - SmoovySmoov
Netherlands - MrPhoenix, AAABatteries, Major
Nigeria - Eephus
Portugal - Gator
Serbia - Vipers
Spain - Sebowski, Kansas Comet, Z Machine, The Reytheist, Good Posting Judge
Turkey - Steve Tasker
Venezuela - Z's wife, Z Machine
Wales - Jonessed

England
EPL
Arsenal - Steve Tasker, Sebowski, Z's wife, Brewer, Vipers, Major, Sparty, Jmon, Scoobygang, The Reytheist, T Bell
Chelsea - Native (pre-Abramovich), Cletius Maximus, Eephus Jr., Tremendous Upside, Gianmarco
Everton - Senor Schmutzig, eagles2007

Fulham - Christo

Hull - QuizGuy66

Liverpool - MrPhoenix, Bentley, Kendall, SmoovySmoov, editor47, Gator, PIK95, Texas Football, Sleeping King, jplvr, theprince, wdcrob, Charvik
Manchester City - editor47, Derek, TitusIII, NYCelt, whoknew
Manchester United - B Maverick, AAABatteries, JuniorNB, Bonzai, AcerFC, Txns8, Ted Lange as your Bartender, Ursa M
Newcastle - Polsonov, Z Machine
Southampton - GoFishTN

Sunderland - Gianmarco
Swansea - Good Posting Judge
Tottenham - GoFishTN, Jonessed, jplvr, LHUCKS
WBA - Steve Tasker
"Big 4 + any team with an American" - El Floppo

Championship
Blackpool - Jonessed, Otello
Bolton - berndog

Derby County - Gator
Ipswich Town - Texas Football, Sparty

Queen's Park Rangers - Christo, Bentley

Football League One

Wolves - Boubucarow, theprince

Football League Two
AFC Wimbledon - Eephus

Northern Premier League, Premier Division
FC United of Manchester - otello


Spain
Atletico Madrid - Z Machine
Barcelona - Desert Power, Sebowski, Kansas Comet, Jmon, SmoovySmoov, The Reytheist, otello, Good Posting Judge
Real Madrid - Z's wife, Derek
Sevilla - Kansas Comet


Italy
Serie A
Inter - El Floppo, Texas Football, Gianmarco
Juventus - Boubucarow
Milan - Soulfly3

Roma - Sebowski, Good Posting Judge, Charvik
Udinese - eagles2007

Serie B

Ascoli - otello

Germany
Bundesliga
1. FC Nurnberg - Bonzai
Bayern Munchen - Mjolnirs, Short Corner, Sparty
Borussia Dortmund - eagles2007, editor47, Boubucarow, SmoovySmoov, Z Machine
Eintracht Frankfurt - Eephus
VfB Stuttgart - kblitz

2. Bundesliga

FC Kaiserslautern - Charvik
FC St. Pauli - Christo


Scotland

Scottish Premier League

Celtic - walnutz, PIK95, NYCelt
Hearts - Steve Tasker, Donsmith753

Scottish League One
Rangers - Senor Schmutzig


USA
MLS
Chicago Fire - Senor Schmutzig, Vipers, Christo, Boubucarow
Columbus Crew - Bonzai, Derek
DC United - walnutz, Jmon, wdcrob
FC Dallas - Txns8
Houston Dynamo - Txns8, whoknew
LA Galaxy - Kansas Comet, Z Machine, The Reytheist
New England Revolution - andy b, PIK95
New York Red Bulls - JuniorNB, El Floppo, AcerFC
Philadelphia Union - Z's wife, eagles2007, editor47, Ted Lange as your Bartender, otello
San Jose Earthquakes - Good Posting Judge
Seattle Sounders - Vipers, SmoovySmoov
Toronto FC - Steve Tasker

NASL
Carolina Railhawks - walnutz

USL Professional Division
Charleston Battery - Mjolnirs, walnutz, Desert Power


Argentina
Boca Juniors - Steve Tasker, walnutz, El Floppo
Los Piratas - otello
Newell's Old Boys - Z Machine
River Plate - Z's wife


Mexico
Chivas Guadalajara - Z Machine
UNAM Pumas - Z's wife


Croatia
Hajduk Split - kblitz


Brazil
Botafogo - Z Machine
Flamengo - Abrantes, Sebowski


France
Paris St. Germain - Eephus

Egypt
Al-Ahly - Jmon

Turkey
Besiktas - Good Posting Judge
Fenerbahce - Steve Tasker

Serbia
Red Star Belgrade - Sparty

 

[The Gator]

I made this.

So that's where Gator got it from when he tweeted it at me....

 

[Steve Tasker]

Before it gets lost in EPL chatter, I wanted to post my thoughts on the US/Bosnia game.

- Brooks looked really overmatched. Like, really really overmatched. Against Dzeko, of course...but still. Got beaten handily on Dzeko's headed goal and was out of position on the first goal. Still though, you have to learn from mistakes....guy has great size and I look forward to seeing him in the future. But yesterday wasn't his day.

- Bradley is pretty decent, eh?

- Jozy looked like the player we all hoped he could be. His confidence has to be through the roof right now....and it's showing out there. That angled shot for the second goal was superb....that is 100% a confidence goal. If he's not 100% committed to that strike, 100% sure he knows where it's going, he misses by a mile. Love it. AND he set up EJ's goal.

- EJ was too indecisive. Nice cool finish in the empty netter, but Gator could've scored that one....still though, there's something to be said for being in the right position. Nice tactical switch at the half to move more 4-4-2 from JK.

- Johansson was very impressive. Perhaps what impressed me the most was his ability to create for himself....he won 2 notable 1v1s and created good shooting opportunities for himself. I can't recall the last time the US really had a striker confident enough to take defenders 1v1 and have the pace to create without service. I think Jozy can get there but I haven't seen it lately. EJ tried it a few times and failed (though he gets points for trying)....Johansson pulled it off.

- Was this a first choice Bosnia team? Other than Dzeko, Begovic, Ibisevic, and a handful of others....I didn't know like 1/2 of their team. Is this their A team?

- I'll say it....I thought Sacha looked good. You're all shocked to read that, I know. His perfect touch + Bradley's perfect touch set up that 4th goal. Those are the plays that separate the good teams from the great teams....not to say the US is great, but those perfect-touch linkups are what score the goals on the biggest stage. The US maybe be able to sleepwalk through a game against Jamaica and win...but you can't win like that in the Cup. You need the precision, and that goal was a world-class goal.

- I thought Diskerud looked listless and kinda meh. Bedoya and Corona and Castillo were all quiet. Nothing really of note there.

 

[otello]

http://prosoccertalk.nbcsports.com/2013/08/14/identity-and-the-premier-league-connecting-englands-top-clubs-to-teams-in-north-america/related/

 

[Steve Tasker]

What ever happened to Freddy Adu? Wasn't he to be the savior of American soccer? How could he be such a worthless turd? Discuss.....

Freddy is currently rotting on the bench for Bahia in the Brazilian league.

Freddy has had useful moments as a pro. In Greece, Turkey, and with Philadelphia. But because of the early hype, he still commands a salary that is not commensurate with his performance, so teams tend to give up on him.

Freddy is also hurt because he lacks the physical tools to be an elite attacker and has never really developed his game in another direction. I am still of the opinion that Freddy would be best employed as what the Italians call a regista, a deep-lying playmaker. But he'd have to really improve his defensive commitment. I still don't think he'd crack the national team there, but It would be his best position.

I remember he had a decent run with the national team a few years back in either the U-17 or U-20 World Cup. I had fleeting hopes that he might develop into something after all (even though the then-emerging Altidore and Bradley were clearly superior players) but.... :crickets: It's a shame.

2007 U-20 World Cup, he captained the US. I was at the QF game against Austria in Toronto, and Adu was far and away the best player on the field. It wasn't close. And that game also featured Michael Bradley (played all 120 minutes), Jozy Altidore (120 + scored the lone US goal), Robbie Rogers, Sebastian Proedl (Werder Bremen), Martin Harnik (Stuttgart). US lost 2-1 in extra time. US beat Uruguay in the round of 16, for christssakes (2-1, Uruguay goal scored by Luis Suarez ).

He played great in the 2011 Gold Cup too, IIRC.

Seems like the knock on him is a poor work ethic. It's a shame. So much talent seemingly wasted. I'm not gonna write the guy off forever yet, but it's certainly not looking good. He should come back to MLS.

 

[Steve Tasker]

Yeah I'm hippling this thread.

 

[Sebowski]

Tasker, I don't have enough teams in there. Put me down for the Tijuana Xolos in Liga MX. Hoping to go down and catch a few games and have been watching on TV when I can.

 

[Bonzai]

http://prosoccertalk.nbcsports.com/2013/08/14/identity-and-the-premier-league-connecting-englands-top-clubs-to-teams-in-north-america/related/

I get the ownership connection, but Liverpool are one of the most successful teams in all of soccer. Comparing them to the Red Sox is silly.

 

[The Gator]

Tasker, I don't have enough teams in there. Put me down for the Tijuana Xolos in Liga MX. Hoping to go down and catch a few games and have been watching on TV when I can.

 

[The Gator]

Pretty freaking excited for Saturday

 

[Steve Tasker]

I guess part of my skepticism about Gustavo lies in asking who that "dedicated destroyer" is who plays for the teams that are above Arsenal in the table? Man U won the league playing Carrick and Cleverly in the middle. Sometimes, very rarely, they'd play Phil Jones to man mark a guy. Toure isn't a dedicated destroyer for City. He's a box to box guy (who they'll pair with another box to box guy). Chelsea only fitfully used a pure DM. Same with Liverpool. Even Everton employed Fellaini more and more as a CAM.

Football is cyclical, but I think the top teams nowadays put far more emphasis on distribution from the holding midfleld spot than on physicality.

I agree with this in general, but Arsenal have consistently done well over the years with the destroyer-type...and I know you know that, but it bears repeating, especially since the team management is the same today as it was 15 years ago, for better or worse. Whether you consider Alex Song or Gilberto Silva true "destroyers", Wenger has always liked the strong stoic DCMs if he can get them. Even Arteta was used as a ball-winner in the deep CM for much of last season, and (IMO) excelled at it for the most part.

Patrick Vieira's not walking through that door, of course, but Gustavo could fit the type of game that Arsenal like to play. If he could play in the deep holding spot, it could free Wilshere and (if he's ever healthy) Diaby to push more offensively....which would be lovely.

What I'm most worried about is that Arsenal hold Wilshere too deep. Watching Michael Bradley a lot this summer, I see a lot of similarities between their styles of play, to be honest. When the US plays Bradley deep, everything goes through him, and that's fantastic because he's a controlling force in the CM. But when they get him forward....he touches the ball less but he makes things happen. He made that beautiful run to set up the 4th US goal just yestrday. The US doesn't get the same type of ball control when Jones or Cameron or Edu or whoever is lying deeper and maybe lose a few % of possession, it's not the same precision, but they sacrifice Bradley's playmaking ability by dropping him so deep. I see Wilshere in a similar vein, I guess. If Arteta is out and Diaby is hurt (let's be honest here....), Wilshere needs to be in that role in the deep CM because he's the only one who can really handle it. And then he's not playmaking, and it all falls on Cazorla or Podolski, etc. Getting a guy like Gustavo could free Wilshere...which is what I think they need to do if they want to be successful this season.

I agree with you that the game has changed and the top teams aren't using the same old formations and tactics anymore. But still...guys like (old destroyer-type) Yaya Toure and Mascherano and Essien still have a place in the game, I think. Maybe not on the truly elite Man City/Chelsea teams, but in the second upper-tier Arsenal group, maybe?

 

[T Bell]

ArsenalGent's been hard at work.

 

[The Gator]

ArsenalGent's been hard at work.

solid work

 

[Steve Tasker]

ArsenalGent's been hard at work.

"And lead us not into temptation

But deliver us from Benayoun"

 

[Steve Tasker]

And frankly, Arteta was a creative wizard for Everton back in the day. He filled in admirably for Alex Song last year, but I think we can all agree that holding CM isn't his natural spot. It wouldn't hurt to put him in a more creative role either.

 

[Ted Lange as your Bartender]

What ever happened to Freddy Adu? Wasn't he to be the savior of American soccer? How could he be such a worthless turd? Discuss.....

Freddy is currently rotting on the bench for Bahia in the Brazilian league.

Freddy has had useful moments as a pro. In Greece, Turkey, and with Philadelphia. But because of the early hype, he still commands a salary that is not commensurate with his performance, so teams tend to give up on him.

Freddy is also hurt because he lacks the physical tools to be an elite attacker and has never really developed his game in another direction. I am still of the opinion that Freddy would be best employed as what the Italians call a regista, a deep-lying playmaker. But he'd have to really improve his defensive commitment. I still don't think he'd crack the national team there, but It would be his best position.

I remember he had a decent run with the national team a few years back in either the U-17 or U-20 World Cup. I had fleeting hopes that he might develop into something after all (even though the then-emerging Altidore and Bradley were clearly superior players) but.... :crickets: It's a shame.

2007 U-20 World Cup, he captained the US. I was at the QF game against Austria in Toronto, and Adu was far and away the best player on the field. It wasn't close. And that game also featured Michael Bradley (played all 120 minutes), Jozy Altidore (120 + scored the lone US goal), Robbie Rogers, Sebastian Proedl (Werder Bremen), Martin Harnik (Stuttgart). US lost 2-1 in extra time. US beat Uruguay in the round of 16, for christssakes (2-1, Uruguay goal scored by Luis Suarez ).He played great in the 2011 Gold Cup too, IIRC.

Seems like the knock on him is a poor work ethic. It's a shame. So much talent seemingly wasted. I'm not gonna write the guy off forever yet, but it's certainly not looking good. He should come back to MLS.

I saw enough of Freddy with the Union to conclude that he can't play in MLS. It's a style problem. He's too small and too slow to get the space to create and to avoid getting muscled off the ball with regularity by MLS midfields. Throw in the questionable work ethic and suspected locker room chemistry issues, and he's cometely not worth the money he's historically demanded.

I had really high hopes when he came back to the league, and I thought maybe Brazil would fit his style of play better, but I don't miss him at all, which is saying something considering how shaky the Union's midfield is.

 

[T Bell]

And frankly, Arteta was a creative wizard for Everton back in the day. He filled in admirably for Alex Song last year, but I think we can all agree that holding CM isn't his natural spot. It wouldn't hurt to put him in a more creative role either.

He's a relentless worker and a level head at the back. I think he's fantastic, a lot like Michael Bradley actually. He doesn't look the part as he's not intimidating, but he's got every other attribute you'd want.

 

[Steve Tasker]

I saw enough of Freddy with the Union to conclude that he can't play in MLS. It's a style problem. He's too small and too slow to get the space to create and to avoid getting muscled off the ball with regularity by MLS midfields. Throw in the questionable work ethic and suspected locker room chemistry issues, and he's cometely not worth the money he's historically demanded.I had really high hopes when he came back to the league, and I thought maybe Brazil would fit his style of play better, but I don't miss him at all, which is saying something considering how shaky the Union's midfield is.

That's a shame. I'll defer to you on that. I suggested MLS because maybe it'd calm him down and ground him a bit.

Someone put it really well on the last page - he's too small to be a pure attacker, but he's never really developed any other part of his game. He's not a box-to-box player, but he's not enough of a playmaker either. How does he fit in?

 

[Steve Tasker]

And frankly, Arteta was a creative wizard for Everton back in the day. He filled in admirably for Alex Song last year, but I think we can all agree that holding CM isn't his natural spot. It wouldn't hurt to put him in a more creative role either.

He's a relentless worker and a level head at the back. I think he's fantastic, a lot like Michael Bradley actually. He doesn't look the part as he's not intimidating, but he's got every other attribute you'd want.

I agree completely. He's a vital part of Arsenal's success (or lack thereof). He does all of the quiet "dirty work" with very little fanfare.

 

[Eephus]

I guess part of my skepticism about Gustavo lies in asking who that "dedicated destroyer" is who plays for the teams that are above Arsenal in the table? Man U won the league playing Carrick and Cleverly in the middle. Sometimes, very rarely, they'd play Phil Jones to man mark a guy. Toure isn't a dedicated destroyer for City. He's a box to box guy (who they'll pair with another box to box guy). Chelsea only fitfully used a pure DM. Same with Liverpool. Even Everton employed Fellaini more and more as a CAM.

Football is cyclical, but I think the top teams nowadays put far more emphasis on distribution from the holding midfleld spot than on physicality.

I agree with this in general, but Arsenal have consistently done well over the years with the destroyer-type...and I know you know that, but it bears repeating, especially since the team management is the same today as it was 15 years ago, for better or worse. Whether you consider Alex Song or Gilberto Silva true "destroyers", Wenger has always liked the strong stoic DCMs if he can get them. Even Arteta was used as a ball-winner in the deep CM for much of last season, and (IMO) excelled at it for the most part.

Patrick Vieira's not walking through that door, of course, but Gustavo could fit the type of game that Arsenal like to play. If he could play in the deep holding spot, it could free Wilshere and (if he's ever healthy) Diaby to push more offensively....which would be lovely.

What I'm most worried about is that Arsenal hold Wilshere too deep. Watching Michael Bradley a lot this summer, I see a lot of similarities between their styles of play, to be honest. When the US plays Bradley deep, everything goes through him, and that's fantastic because he's a controlling force in the CM. But when they get him forward....he touches the ball less but he makes things happen. He made that beautiful run to set up the 4th US goal just yestrday. The US doesn't get the same type of ball control when Jones or Cameron or Edu or whoever is lying deeper and maybe lose a few % of possession, it's not the same precision, but they sacrifice Bradley's playmaking ability by dropping him so deep. I see Wilshere in a similar vein, I guess. If Arteta is out and Diaby is hurt (let's be honest here....), Wilshere needs to be in that role in the deep CM because he's the only one who can really handle it. And then he's not playmaking, and it all falls on Cazorla or Podolski, etc. Getting a guy like Gustavo could free Wilshere...which is what I think they need to do if they want to be successful this season.

I agree with you that the game has changed and the top teams aren't using the same old formations and tactics anymore. But still...guys like (old destroyer-type) Yaya Toure and Mascherano and Essien still have a place in the game, I think. Maybe not on the truly elite Man City/Chelsea teams, but in the second upper-tier Arsenal group, maybe?

Jonathan Wilson wrote a good piece yesterday about variations in the middle of the 4-1-3-2 that a lot of teams are using this season. It's on Bleacher Report but don't let that dissuade you.

 

[bentley]

I was reading this article about LFC's offer for Willian and how it would mark the second biggest transfer fee ever paid by the club. And then I saw Andy Carroll's mug at the bottom of the article and I just still don't get it. Andy ####### Carroll?

 

[The Gator]

Third annual "rate my youth soccer team by racially judging the player's names"-

Loogman

Toste

Soares

Soares

Glynn

Bouvet

Apgar

Leist

Duff

Duffy

Calhoun

Welch

...I'm ####ed

and i've just triple checked the fact that I have a Duff AND Duffy on my team. :mindblown:

 

[bentley]

I'd be looking for random kids in the park whose name ends in "ez" myself regardless of age. They have to be better than that crew.

Also fascinated by Apgar. I'm pretty sure that's a test they give newborns and not a real last name.

 

[T Bell]

I'd be looking for random kids in the park whose name ends in "ez" myself regardless of age. They have to be better than that crew.

Also fascinated by Apgar. I'm pretty sure that's a test they give newborns and not a real last name.

Apgar is a simple 1-5 scoring method. If they turn blue it's a 1, I believe. Even Gator can handle this.

 

[The Gator]

I'm going to call that last kid The Welch Xavi