***Official Soccer Discussion Thread*** (5 Viewers)

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

“We’re not naïve,” Boswell said. “We knew going into this that every [u.S. sports] league that has won free agency has won it through a work stoppage. We’re hoping to be that outlier.

He's right IMO. With the usual path to free agency blocked by the SEM (and the courts), if MLS players truly want free agency they're probably going to have to shut the league down and inflict a lot of pain on everyone involved. Even then, I'm not sure the owners will budge.

 

[The Gator]

Pathetic...not the same team ever since the Bayern debacle.

Couldn't tell which team NEEDED to win the game...odd

 

[NewlyRetired]

“We’re not naïve,” Boswell said. “We knew going into this that every [u.S. sports] league that has won free agency has won it through a work stoppage. We’re hoping to be that outlier.

He's right IMO. With the usual path to free agency blocked by the SEM (and the courts), if MLS players truly want free agency they're probably going to have to shut the league down and inflict a lot of pain on everyone involved. Even then, I'm not sure the owners will budge.

I am not that familiar with free agency history but multiple people have reported that Boswell was mistaken in how the other leagues gained free agency. The reports say that most of the other US leagues gained free agency through the court system, not through work stoppage.

I believe Curt Flood was the guy who sued in court for Baseball in Flood vs Kuhn, which ultimately led to free agency.

Certainly in soccer world wide, free agency was won through the courts as well via Bosman.

 

[NewlyRetired]

I still see no reason at all why MLS can't keep the price/value of free agency under control but still allow the player some movement choices.

They could add in something simple like when a player is out of contract, any team can sign him for X% more than he made on his current salary. You block the ability for teams to bid against each other, which is what MLS is most afraid of, but you still give the player the choice of where he wants to play if multiple teams are interested in him.

It is very far from true free agency but it would at least give the player some choices in where he wants to live and what playing situation might be better for him in his next contract.

You could also enact a "Bird" type rule allowing the current team to be able to offer the player more than any other team in an attempt to retain him. The player would not be obligated to stay if he did not want to though and could choose another lower paying team.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

“We’re not naïve,” Boswell said. “We knew going into this that every [u.S. sports] league that has won free agency has won it through a work stoppage. We’re hoping to be that outlier.

He's right IMO. With the usual path to free agency blocked by the SEM (and the courts), if MLS players truly want free agency they're probably going to have to shut the league down and inflict a lot of pain on everyone involved. Even then, I'm not sure the owners will budge.

I am not that familiar with free agency history but multiple people have reported that Boswell was mistaken in how the other leagues gained free agency. The reports say that most of the other US leagues gained free agency through the court system, not through work stoppage.

I believe Curt Flood was the guy who sued in court for Baseball in Flood vs Kuhn, which ultimately led to free agency.

Certainly in soccer world wide, free agency was won through the courts as well via Bosman.

Curt Flood lost in the courts. Baseball got free agency when an arbitrator (who's authority was established through collective bargaining) strictly construed the reserve clause.

I thought Bank's piece today was particularly bad. Right now the dispersal draft is a collectively bargained procedure. It would be silly to sue now. The labor process needs to break down before there is an antitrust suit.

 

[NewlyRetired]

“We’re not naïve,” Boswell said. “We knew going into this that every [u.S. sports] league that has won free agency has won it through a work stoppage. We’re hoping to be that outlier.

He's right IMO. With the usual path to free agency blocked by the SEM (and the courts), if MLS players truly want free agency they're probably going to have to shut the league down and inflict a lot of pain on everyone involved. Even then, I'm not sure the owners will budge.

I am not that familiar with free agency history but multiple people have reported that Boswell was mistaken in how the other leagues gained free agency. The reports say that most of the other US leagues gained free agency through the court system, not through work stoppage.

I believe Curt Flood was the guy who sued in court for Baseball in Flood vs Kuhn, which ultimately led to free agency.

Certainly in soccer world wide, free agency was won through the courts as well via Bosman.

Curt Flood lost in the courts. Baseball got free agency when an arbitrator (who's authority was established through collective bargaining) strictly construed the reserve clause.

I know Flood lost but I was under the impression that it was Flood suing that kicked off the events that led to free agency.

Wiki says something similar but they are not always the best source so they might be wrong as well.

Although the Court ruled in baseball's favor 5-3, it admitted the original grounds for the antitrust exemption were tenuous at best, that baseball was indeed interstate commerce for purposes of the act and the exemption was an "anomaly"[1] it had explicitly refused to extend to other professional sports or entertainment. That admission set in motion events which ultimately led to an arbitrator's ruling nullifying the reserve clause and opening the door for free agency in baseball and other sports.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

“We’re not naïve,” Boswell said. “We knew going into this that every [u.S. sports] league that has won free agency has won it through a work stoppage. We’re hoping to be that outlier.

He's right IMO. With the usual path to free agency blocked by the SEM (and the courts), if MLS players truly want free agency they're probably going to have to shut the league down and inflict a lot of pain on everyone involved. Even then, I'm not sure the owners will budge.

I am not that familiar with free agency history but multiple people have reported that Boswell was mistaken in how the other leagues gained free agency. The reports say that most of the other US leagues gained free agency through the court system, not through work stoppage.

I believe Curt Flood was the guy who sued in court for Baseball in Flood vs Kuhn, which ultimately led to free agency.

Certainly in soccer world wide, free agency was won through the courts as well via Bosman.

Curt Flood lost in the courts. Baseball got free agency when an arbitrator (who's authority was established through collective bargaining) strictly construed the reserve clause.

I know Flood lost but I was under the impression that it was Flood suing that kicked off the events that led to free agency.

Wiki says something similar but they are not always the best source so they might be wrong as well.

Although the Court ruled in baseball's favor 5-3, it admitted the original grounds for the antitrust exemption were tenuous at best, that baseball was indeed interstate commerce for purposes of the act and the exemption was an "anomaly"[1] it had explicitly refused to extend to other professional sports or entertainment. That admission set in motion events which ultimately led to an arbitrator's ruling nullifying the reserve clause and opening the door for free agency in baseball and other sports.

Yeah, I don't think it set anything in motion that led to Seitz's decision. The NFL case that held that the NFL did not have an exemption was decided before the Flood case. Seitz's decision had nothing to do with antitrust. It was straight contract interpretation.

 

[Kafka]

Pathetic...not the same team ever since the Bayern debacle.

Couldn't tell which team NEEDED to win the game...odd

Exactly.

 

[NewlyRetired]

Were not naïve, Boswell said. We knew going into this that every [u.S. sports] league that has won free agency has won it through a work stoppage. Were hoping to be that outlier.

He's right IMO. With the usual path to free agency blocked by the SEM (and the courts), if MLS players truly want free agency they're probably going to have to shut the league down and inflict a lot of pain on everyone involved. Even then, I'm not sure the owners will budge.

I am not that familiar with free agency history but multiple people have reported that Boswell was mistaken in how the other leagues gained free agency. The reports say that most of the other US leagues gained free agency through the court system, not through work stoppage.

I believe Curt Flood was the guy who sued in court for Baseball in Flood vs Kuhn, which ultimately led to free agency.

Certainly in soccer world wide, free agency was won through the courts as well via Bosman.

Curt Flood lost in the courts. Baseball got free agency when an arbitrator (who's authority was established through collective bargaining) strictly construed the reserve clause.

I know Flood lost but I was under the impression that it was Flood suing that kicked off the events that led to free agency.

Wiki says something similar but they are not always the best source so they might be wrong as well.

Although the Court ruled in baseball's favor 5-3, it admitted the original grounds for the antitrust exemption were tenuous at best, that baseball was indeed interstate commerce for purposes of the act and the exemption was an "anomaly"[1] it had explicitly refused to extend to other professional sports or entertainment. That admission set in motion events which ultimately led to an arbitrator's ruling nullifying the reserve clause and opening the door for free agency in baseball and other sports.

Yeah, I don't think it set anything in motion that led to Seitz's decision. The NFL case that held that the NFL did not have an exemption was decided before the Flood case. Seitz's decision had nothing to do with antitrust. It was straight contract interpretation.

So back to the original point Boswell made.

Did all the other US leagues achieve free agency through work stoppage as he indicated? Many online say that is an incorrect statement but my historical knowledge of this topic is very weak.

 

[The Gator]

Pathetic...not the same team ever since the Bayern debacle.

Couldn't tell which team NEEDED to win the game...odd

Exactly.

I don't watch nearly as much of Roma you...but, is Totti basically doing what Gerrard has done this season and held the team back a bit?

 

[Good Posting Judge]

it might have been the sleep deprivation.

Are congratulations and Maradona-brand cigars in order?

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Were not naïve, Boswell said. We knew going into this that every [u.S. sports] league that has won free agency has won it through a work stoppage. Were hoping to be that outlier.

He's right IMO. With the usual path to free agency blocked by the SEM (and the courts), if MLS players truly want free agency they're probably going to have to shut the league down and inflict a lot of pain on everyone involved. Even then, I'm not sure the owners will budge.

I am not that familiar with free agency history but multiple people have reported that Boswell was mistaken in how the other leagues gained free agency. The reports say that most of the other US leagues gained free agency through the court system, not through work stoppage.

I believe Curt Flood was the guy who sued in court for Baseball in Flood vs Kuhn, which ultimately led to free agency.

Certainly in soccer world wide, free agency was won through the courts as well via Bosman.

Curt Flood lost in the courts. Baseball got free agency when an arbitrator (who's authority was established through collective bargaining) strictly construed the reserve clause.

I know Flood lost but I was under the impression that it was Flood suing that kicked off the events that led to free agency.

Wiki says something similar but they are not always the best source so they might be wrong as well.

Although the Court ruled in baseball's favor 5-3, it admitted the original grounds for the antitrust exemption were tenuous at best, that baseball was indeed interstate commerce for purposes of the act and the exemption was an "anomaly"[1] it had explicitly refused to extend to other professional sports or entertainment. That admission set in motion events which ultimately led to an arbitrator's ruling nullifying the reserve clause and opening the door for free agency in baseball and other sports.

Yeah, I don't think it set anything in motion that led to Seitz's decision. The NFL case that held that the NFL did not have an exemption was decided before the Flood case. Seitz's decision had nothing to do with antitrust. It was straight contract interpretation.

So back to the original point Boswell made.

Did all the other US leagues achieve free agency through work stoppage as he indicated? Many online say that is an incorrect statement but my historical knowledge of this topic is very weak.

Boswell is also inaccurate, but I hold law professors to a higher standard. All leagues that come to mind have gotten free agency as a result of a collective bargaining impasse. Which typically entails a work stoppage, but the work stoppage itself does not usually bring about a concession from the owners. What generally happens is that the owners try to unilaterally impose a rule the players haven't agreed to or preserve a rule that the players no longer want. The players will argue that the rule is not then protected by the non-statutory labor exemption. At that point a lawsuit is filed. The players will ask for an injunction, but those are rarely granted due to the Norris-LaGuardia Act. So it becomes a damages trial like the Freeman-MacNeil case.

This is an arcane field of law, but it's stuff every sports law class covers

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

it might have been the sleep deprivation.

Are congratulations and Maradona-brand cigars in order?

Yup. Scrappygang came home a bit too late for the Saturday games, but after a very fussy night he settled into a deep sleep beside me for Liverpool / City. No comment on whether I tried to convince him he looked like Dennis Bergkamp during The Invincibles documentary.

 

[The Gator]

it might have been the sleep deprivation.

Are congratulations and Maradona-brand cigars in order?

Yup. Scrappygang came home a bit too late for the Saturday games, but after a very fussy night he settled into a deep sleep beside me for Liverpool / City. No comment on whether I tried to convince him he looked like Dennis Bergkamp during The Invincibles documentary.

congrats, man

 

[El Floppo]

it might have been the sleep deprivation.

Are congratulations and Maradona-brand cigars in order?

Yup. Scrappygang came home a bit too late for the Saturday games, but after a very fussy night he settled into a deep sleep beside me for Liverpool / City. No comment on whether I tried to convince him he looked like Dennis Bergkamp during The Invincibles documentary.

congrats, gb!

hope the mrs scoob is doing well. sleep is overrated anyways...

 

[The Z Machine]

it might have been the sleep deprivation.

Are congratulations and Maradona-brand cigars in order?

Yup. Scrappygang came home a bit too late for the Saturday games, but after a very fussy night he settled into a deep sleep beside me for Liverpool / City. No comment on whether I tried to convince him he looked like Dennis Bergkamp during The Invincibles documentary.

####### A, that's awesome Scoob!!! Best news Iv'e heard in a long while.

 

[Christo]

Looks like the FIRE! is movin' on up! To the East Side! A deluxe cable channel in the Sky-y-y-y!

Going from Power 50 to Comcast SportsNet Chicago.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

“We’re not naïve,” Boswell said. “We knew going into this that every [u.S. sports] league that has won free agency has won it through a work stoppage. We’re hoping to be that outlier.

He's right IMO. With the usual path to free agency blocked by the SEM (and the courts), if MLS players truly want free agency they're probably going to have to shut the league down and inflict a lot of pain on everyone involved. Even then, I'm not sure the owners will budge.

I am not that familiar with free agency history but multiple people have reported that Boswell was mistaken in how the other leagues gained free agency. The reports say that most of the other US leagues gained free agency through the court system, not through work stoppage.

I believe Curt Flood was the guy who sued in court for Baseball in Flood vs Kuhn, which ultimately led to free agency.

Certainly in soccer world wide, free agency was won through the courts as well via Bosman.

I was saying that since (it appears) the SEM has blocked the typical court path for MLS players they'll have to inflict an unbelievable amount of damage on the owners (and themselves) to get relief. And I don't think it'll work.

So dumb by the owners IMO. The lesson they should have learned from other sports is that the pie is plenty big enough to go around, and not to treat the players badly. Instead it appears that the lesson they learned is that if they block access to court-granted FA they can make more money.

ETA: at least that's what I think until RHE proves me wrong.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

it might have been the sleep deprivation.

Are congratulations and Maradona-brand cigars in order?

Yup. Scrappygang came home a bit too late for the Saturday games, but after a very fussy night he settled into a deep sleep beside me for Liverpool / City. No comment on whether I tried to convince him he looked like Dennis Bergkamp during The Invincibles documentary.

So awsome, Scoob. Congrats to you and missus RHE!

 

[NewlyRetired]

@BL_LatestEN: Sporting Kansas City have offered Rafael van der Vaart over €4.3m/$4,8m per season if he joins the American side, "Bild" reports. #HSV

 

[Jaysus]

I imagine few will be all that interested in what the Swans have to do to qualify for European play next year, but this article does a neat job of identifying all of the potential options... it is a bit mind boggling.

How the Swans could possibly qualify for Europe

P.S. lol @ The Fair Play league option

 

[roadkill1292]

I imagine few will be all that interested in what the Swans have to do to qualify for European play next year, but this article does a neat job of identifying all of the potential options... it is a bit mind boggling.

How the Swans could possibly qualify for Europe

P.S. lol @ The Fair Play league option

:shakesfistangrilyatJonjoShelvey:

 

[Sinn Fein]

I imagine few will be all that interested in what the Swans have to do to qualify for European play next year, but this article does a neat job of identifying all of the potential options... it is a bit mind boggling.

How the Swans could possibly qualify for Europe

P.S. lol @ The Fair Play league option

Oddly enough England was ranked 3rd at the end of December, but it is West Ham, of all teams, leading the EPL in Fair Play points... that looks to be a pretty ####ty way to enter Europa though - not only is it Europa, but the team enters at the first qualifying round - with matches slated for July 2 and 9th...

 

[charvik]

it might have been the sleep deprivation.

Are congratulations and Maradona-brand cigars in order?

Yup. Scrappygang came home a bit too late for the Saturday games, but after a very fussy night he settled into a deep sleep beside me for Liverpool / City. No comment on whether I tried to convince him he looked like Dennis Bergkamp during The Invincibles documentary.

####### A, that's awesome Scoob!!! Best news Iv'e heard in a long while.

Great news GB! Congrats!!!!!

 

[charvik]

I imagine few will be all that interested in what the Swans have to do to qualify for European play next year, but this article does a neat job of identifying all of the potential options... it is a bit mind boggling.

How the Swans could possibly qualify for Europe

P.S. lol @ The Fair Play league option

Oddly enough England was ranked 3rd at the end of December, but it is West Ham, of all teams, leading the EPL in Fair Play points... that looks to be a pretty ####ty way to enter Europa though - not only is it Europa, but the team enters at the first qualifying round - with matches slated for July 2 and 9th...

I found it curious that Wales Online and the Liverpool Echo is using the exact same template for their web site. Threw me off for a bit.

 

[Mjolnirs]

DFB Pokal Third Round today and tomorrow:

Today FC Kaiserslautern (BL2) @ Bayer Leverkusen     ESPN3 12:551899 Hoffenheim         @ VfR Aalen (BL2)FC Köln (BL2)           @ SC FreiburgBorussia Dortmund       @ Dynamo Dresden (BL2) ESPN3 2:25TomorrowWolfsburg                @ Leipzig (BL3)Werder Bremen            @ Arminia Bielefeld (BL2)Borussia Mönchengladbach @ Kickers Offenbach ESPN3 2:25Eintracht Braunschweig   @ Bayern München    ESPN3, ESPN DEPORTES 2:25

 

[Sinn Fein]

I imagine few will be all that interested in what the Swans have to do to qualify for European play next year, but this article does a neat job of identifying all of the potential options... it is a bit mind boggling.

How the Swans could possibly qualify for Europe

P.S. lol @ The Fair Play league option

Oddly enough England was ranked 3rd at the end of December, but it is West Ham, of all teams, leading the EPL in Fair Play points... that looks to be a pretty ####ty way to enter Europa though - not only is it Europa, but the team enters at the first qualifying round - with matches slated for July 2 and 9th...

I found it curious that Wales Online and the Liverpool Echo is using the exact same template for their web site. Threw me off for a bit.

Both owned by Trinity Mirror plc

 

[El Floppo]

I imagine few will be all that interested in what the Swans have to do to qualify for European play next year, but this article does a neat job of identifying all of the potential options... it is a bit mind boggling.

How the Swans could possibly qualify for Europe

P.S. lol @ The Fair Play league option

Oddly enough England was ranked 3rd at the end of December, but it is West Ham, of all teams, leading the EPL in Fair Play points... that looks to be a pretty ####ty way to enter Europa though - not only is it Europa, but the team enters at the first qualifying round - with matches slated for July 2 and 9th...

Didn't Fulhamerica qualify for Europa (IIRC, the year the went to the finals on Dempsey's wonder/lucky goal) through Fair Play? or they were 7th or 8th and some doubles or trebles ahead of them opened a spot...

 

[Sinn Fein]

I imagine few will be all that interested in what the Swans have to do to qualify for European play next year, but this article does a neat job of identifying all of the potential options... it is a bit mind boggling.

How the Swans could possibly qualify for Europe

P.S. lol @ The Fair Play league option

Oddly enough England was ranked 3rd at the end of December, but it is West Ham, of all teams, leading the EPL in Fair Play points... that looks to be a pretty ####ty way to enter Europa though - not only is it Europa, but the team enters at the first qualifying round - with matches slated for July 2 and 9th...

Didn't Fulhamerica qualify for Europa (IIRC, the year the went to the finals on Dempsey's wonder/lucky goal) through Fair Play? or they were 7th or 8th and some doubles or trebles ahead of them opened a spot...

yes and no - that year, 09-10, they qualified on league placement, but for the 2010-11 season they qualified under fair play - but did not make it out of the group stage.

 

[Sammy3469]

“We’re not naïve,” Boswell said. “We knew going into this that every [u.S. sports] league that has won free agency has won it through a work stoppage. We’re hoping to be that outlier.

He's right IMO. With the usual path to free agency blocked by the SEM (and the courts), if MLS players truly want free agency they're probably going to have to shut the league down and inflict a lot of pain on everyone involved. Even then, I'm not sure the owners will budge.

I am not that familiar with free agency history but multiple people have reported that Boswell was mistaken in how the other leagues gained free agency. The reports say that most of the other US leagues gained free agency through the court system, not through work stoppage.

I believe Curt Flood was the guy who sued in court for Baseball in Flood vs Kuhn, which ultimately led to free agency.

Certainly in soccer world wide, free agency was won through the courts as well via Bosman.

I was saying that since (it appears) the SEM has blocked the typical court path for MLS players they'll have to inflict an unbelievable amount of damage on the owners (and themselves) to get relief. And I don't think it'll work.

So dumb by the owners IMO. The lesson they should have learned from other sports is that the pie is plenty big enough to go around, and not to treat the players badly. Instead it appears that the lesson they learned is that if they block access to court-granted FA they can make more money.

ETA: at least that's what I think until RHE proves me wrong.

I'll just throw this out there as well, but I think a big part of the MLS posture is coming from an NFL angle as opposed from a MLB/NBA/NHL angle since so many of the MLS owners are also NFL ones. The only reason I point this out is the NFL simply runs over it's players in negotiations. Over and over and over and over and over (you get the point) again. NBA and especially MLB, not so much (and the NBA just recently got a spine after getting run over for the past 10 years or so). I fully expect the MLS owners think they can and will continue to do so to their players.

 

[roadkill1292]

“We’re not naïve,” Boswell said. “We knew going into this that every [u.S. sports] league that has won free agency has won it through a work stoppage. We’re hoping to be that outlier.

He's right IMO. With the usual path to free agency blocked by the SEM (and the courts), if MLS players truly want free agency they're probably going to have to shut the league down and inflict a lot of pain on everyone involved. Even then, I'm not sure the owners will budge.

I am not that familiar with free agency history but multiple people have reported that Boswell was mistaken in how the other leagues gained free agency. The reports say that most of the other US leagues gained free agency through the court system, not through work stoppage.

I believe Curt Flood was the guy who sued in court for Baseball in Flood vs Kuhn, which ultimately led to free agency.

Certainly in soccer world wide, free agency was won through the courts as well via Bosman.

I was saying that since (it appears) the SEM has blocked the typical court path for MLS players they'll have to inflict an unbelievable amount of damage on the owners (and themselves) to get relief. And I don't think it'll work.

So dumb by the owners IMO. The lesson they should have learned from other sports is that the pie is plenty big enough to go around, and not to treat the players badly. Instead it appears that the lesson they learned is that if they block access to court-granted FA they can make more money.

ETA: at least that's what I think until RHE proves me wrong.

I'll just throw this out there as well, but I think a big part of the MLS posture is coming from an NFL angle as opposed from a MLB/NBA/NHL angle since so many of the MLS owners are also NFL ones. The only reason I point this out is the NFL simply runs over it's players in negotiations. Over and over and over and over and over (you get the point) again. NBA and especially MLB, not so much (and the NBA just recently got a spine after getting run over for the past 10 years or so). I fully expect the MLS owners think they can and will continue to do so to their players.

While straining to subdue my kneejerk anti-NFL feelings, I wonder why MLS owners shouldn't feel this way. The leverage appears to be on their side as long as domestic players aren't good enough to routinely command bidding wars from foreign clubs. And even if American players continue to improve to that point, they will increase the popularity of MLS along with them, allowing MLS to pay better wages while maintaining the restrictions so common to our domestic sports.

In my mind it is a precarious balance to maintain, especially with other factors outside of MLS control looming as well.

 

[Sinn Fein]

FFP regulations under attack

Manchester City’s hopes that Financial Fair Play (FFP) might be ruled illegal rest on a potentially hugely significant court case which opens in Brussels on Thursday.

The challenge to Uefa’s regime – which City fell foul of last year – has been brought by football agent Daniel Striani, and supporters of both City and Paris Saint-Germain, and will be heard over the next two days at the Court of First Instance in the Belgian capital.

Striani and the fans are being represented by Jean-Louis Dupont, one of the lawyers who secured the landmark Bosman ruling 20 years ago, with Dupont preparing to argue that FFP infringes competition law and should therefore be declared illegal.

European football’s governing body, Uefa – which will have its own legal representation in court – insists it has support for FFP from the European Commission, which in October decided not to investigate Striani’s case further. Legal opinion suggests that it may be more than a year before the case is resolved.

 

[NewlyRetired]

“We’re not naïve,” Boswell said. “We knew going into this that every [u.S. sports] league that has won free agency has won it through a work stoppage. We’re hoping to be that outlier.

He's right IMO. With the usual path to free agency blocked by the SEM (and the courts), if MLS players truly want free agency they're probably going to have to shut the league down and inflict a lot of pain on everyone involved. Even then, I'm not sure the owners will budge.

I am not that familiar with free agency history but multiple people have reported that Boswell was mistaken in how the other leagues gained free agency. The reports say that most of the other US leagues gained free agency through the court system, not through work stoppage.

I believe Curt Flood was the guy who sued in court for Baseball in Flood vs Kuhn, which ultimately led to free agency.

Certainly in soccer world wide, free agency was won through the courts as well via Bosman.

I was saying that since (it appears) the SEM has blocked the typical court path for MLS players they'll have to inflict an unbelievable amount of damage on the owners (and themselves) to get relief. And I don't think it'll work.

So dumb by the owners IMO. The lesson they should have learned from other sports is that the pie is plenty big enough to go around, and not to treat the players badly. Instead it appears that the lesson they learned is that if they block access to court-granted FA they can make more money.

ETA: at least that's what I think until RHE proves me wrong.

I'll just throw this out there as well, but I think a big part of the MLS posture is coming from an NFL angle as opposed from a MLB/NBA/NHL angle since so many of the MLS owners are also NFL ones. The only reason I point this out is the NFL simply runs over it's players in negotiations. Over and over and over and over and over (you get the point) again. NBA and especially MLB, not so much (and the NBA just recently got a spine after getting run over for the past 10 years or so). I fully expect the MLS owners think they can and will continue to do so to their players.

While straining to subdue my kneejerk anti-NFL feelings, I wonder why MLS owners shouldn't feel this way. The leverage appears to be on their side as long as domestic players aren't good enough to routinely command bidding wars from foreign clubs. And even if American players continue to improve to that point, they will increase the popularity of MLS along with them, allowing MLS to pay better wages while maintaining the restrictions so common to our domestic sports.

In my mind it is a precarious balance to maintain, especially with other factors outside of MLS control looming as well.

All good points from Rob, Sammy and roadkill.

I think Sammy is right that much of the MLS dna is based on the NFL, but there is less NFL ownership in the league than many might realize.

I think of the current 20 teams, the only MLS majority owners who are also NFL owners are Kraft (Pats and Revs), Hunt (FC Dallas and KC), and Kroenke (Rapids and Rams).

Paul Allen is a minority owner in the Sounders.

Arthur Blank will join this list in 2017 when they start up.

I don't think I am missing anyone but one of the 77 LAFC owners must have some ties to the NFL.

 

[roadkill1292]

FFP regulations under attack

Manchester City’s hopes that Financial Fair Play (FFP) might be ruled illegal rest on a potentially hugely significant court case which opens in Brussels on Thursday.

The challenge to Uefa’s regime – which City fell foul of last year – has been brought by football agent Daniel Striani, and supporters of both City and Paris Saint-Germain, and will be heard over the next two days at the Court of First Instance in the Belgian capital.

Striani and the fans are being represented by Jean-Louis Dupont, one of the lawyers who secured the landmark Bosman ruling 20 years ago, with Dupont preparing to argue that FFP infringes competition law and should therefore be declared illegal.

European football’s governing body, Uefa – which will have its own legal representation in court – insists it has support for FFP from the European Commission, which in October decided not to investigate Striani’s case further. Legal opinion suggests that it may be more than a year before the case is resolved.

Is it fair (or glaringly obvious) to speculate that agents don't like FFP because it prevents clubs from overspending [even more] on salaries? I understand the competitive arguments against FFP, too.

Andy Staples of SI.com wrote a piece this week saying that one college AD has told him that much of the opposition to paying players is because of the fear of schools creating what they call the "false market." But what they really mean by that is that they won't be able to help themselves from overpaying for talent should the wage fixing agreement be eliminated. People in the position of procuring talent just seem to lose all sense of proportion and have to artificially restrain themselves.

 

[Sammy3469]

All good points from Rob, Sammy and roadkill.

I think Sammy is right that much of the MLS dna is based on the NFL, but there is less NFL ownership in the league than many might realize.

I think of the current 20 teams, the only MLS majority owners who are also NFL owners are Kraft (Pats and Revs), Hunt (FC Dallas and KC), and Kroenke (Rapids and Rams).

Paul Allen is a minority owner in the Sounders.

Arthur Blank will join this list in 2017 when they start up.

I don't think I am missing anyone but one of the 77 LAFC owners must have some ties to the NFL.

FWIW, I think the more critical point is that between Hunt, Kraft, and Kroenke you have 3 of the 7 or 8 most powerful NFL owners (along with Jones, the Mara's, and Pitt's group), so it's not like these same guys are going to cower to the players. Kraft in particular was heavily involved in these types of negotiations, so if he cares at all about the MLS situation (for all I know he's still celebrating his Super Bowl victory), it's going to influenced by his historical ability to get about anything he wants in these types of disputes.

 

[jonessed]

FFP regulations under attack

Manchester Citys hopes that Financial Fair Play (FFP) might be ruled illegal rest on a potentially hugely significant court case which opens in Brussels on Thursday.

The challenge to Uefas regime which City fell foul of last year has been brought by football agent Daniel Striani, and supporters of both City and Paris Saint-Germain, and will be heard over the next two days at the Court of First Instance in the Belgian capital.

Striani and the fans are being represented by Jean-Louis Dupont, one of the lawyers who secured the landmark Bosman ruling 20 years ago, with Dupont preparing to argue that FFP infringes competition law and should therefore be declared illegal.

European footballs governing body, Uefa which will have its own legal representation in court insists it has support for FFP from the European Commission, which in October decided not to investigate Strianis case further. Legal opinion suggests that it may be more than a year before the case is resolved.

Is it fair (or glaringly obvious) to speculate that agents don't like FFP because it prevents clubs from overspending [even more] on salaries? I understand the competitive arguments against FFP, too.Andy Staples of SI.com wrote a piece this week saying that one college AD has told him that much of the opposition to paying players is because of the fear of schools creating what they call the "false market." But what they really mean by that is that they won't be able to help themselves from overpaying for talent should the wage fixing agreement be eliminated. People in the position of procuring talent just seem to lose all sense of proportion.

I would go with glaringly obvious.

I'm torn on FFP. I don't think it evens the playing field as much as it simply locks in the current power structure. Perhaps that's all it was ever intended to do.

 

[NewlyRetired]

Looks like possibly game over for any hope of starting the season on time. Wonderful first impression for 60k fans who bought tickets for Orlando this weekend. :(

========================================

CSN has learned that the MLS Players Union is close to walking away from the CBA negotiating table.

Multiple player agents spoke to CSN off-record today to stress that the negotiations are close to breaking down. It's possible that the players may formally walk away from the table as soon as this afternoon.

The agents say that the owners have refused to budge on the issue of free agency at all. Although they say the players are willing to be creative to find a solution that both allows for freer movement and keeps salary inflation under control, the owners refuse to consider any change to the way players move between clubs.

One agent wrote to CSN that "If the players are properly and financially supported throughout the strike...they would be on board for a long strike." The same agent went on to write "it doesn't look like the season will start this weekend."

Although the agent was careful to stress that his position was based only on the position of the players they represented, other agents expressed similar things.

Overnight, CSN was told that the union may have some powerful allies in the form of the other pro sports unions. It was suggested that the other unions would help to increase the player strike fund to allow for MLS players to make a living wage while on strike. The motivation to do so comes from a desire to see MLS move away from core concepts of single entity ownership. It's felt that the model is a threat to all professional sports in North America and there is a fear that other leagues could try to emulate all or parts of the system in the future. The other unions want to do what they can to make sure that doesn't happen.

It's worth noting that when MLSPU last challenged single entity in the courts it did so with the financial support of the NFLPA.

 

[Sammy3469]

Looks like possibly game over for any hope of starting the season on time. Wonderful first impression for 60k fans who bought tickets for Orlando this weekend. :(

========================================

CSN has learned that the MLS Players Union is close to walking away from the CBA negotiating table.

Multiple player agents spoke to CSN off-record today to stress that the negotiations are close to breaking down. It's possible that the players may formally walk away from the table as soon as this afternoon.

The agents say that the owners have refused to budge on the issue of free agency at all. Although they say the players are willing to be creative to find a solution that both allows for freer movement and keeps salary inflation under control, the owners refuse to consider any change to the way players move between clubs.

One agent wrote to CSN that "If the players are properly and financially supported throughout the strike...they would be on board for a long strike." The same agent went on to write "it doesn't look like the season will start this weekend."

Although the agent was careful to stress that his position was based only on the position of the players they represented, other agents expressed similar things.

Overnight, CSN was told that the union may have some powerful allies in the form of the other pro sports unions. It was suggested that the other unions would help to increase the player strike fund to allow for MLS players to make a living wage while on strike. The motivation to do so comes from a desire to see MLS move away from core concepts of single entity ownership. It's felt that the model is a threat to all professional sports in North America and there is a fear that other leagues could try to emulate all or parts of the system in the future. The other unions want to do what they can to make sure that doesn't happen.

It's worth noting that when MLSPU last challenged single entity in the courts it did so with the financial support of the NFLPA.

If the bolded is true, that's new since it's looked like the MLSPU was acting alone.

Just some background, but if they are getting help from the NBPA look out. The NBPA recently hire Michele Roberts who has basically already gone nuclear on the current NBA CBA. Everyone expects her to decertify the union and take the league to court if there is a lockout in 2017(http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/story/2015-02-26/nba-lockout-nbpa-michele-roberts-union-media-billy-hunter-donald-fehr). She's basically a bull in a china shop and if she's looking to set some precedence with MLS, well the MLS owners have a formidable opponent.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

One agent wrote to CSN that "If the players are properly and financially supported throughout the strike...they would be on board for a long strike." The same agent went on to write "it doesn't look like the season will start this weekend."

[snip]

Overnight, CSN was told that the union may have some powerful allies in the form of the other pro sports unions. It was suggested that the other unions would help to increase the player strike fund to allow for MLS players to make a living wage while on strike. The motivation to do so comes from a desire to see MLS move away from core concepts of single entity ownership. It's felt that the model is a threat to all professional sports in North America and there is a fear that other leagues could try to emulate all or parts of the system in the future. The other unions want to do what they can to make sure that doesn't happen.

It's worth noting that when MLSPU last challenged single entity in the courts it did so with the financial support of the NFLPA.

Well, now. That's interesting.

Seems like it would be cheaper to fund MLS's strike/lockout than to have to fight it out with their own league later on.

 

[B Maverick]

Bring on the scabs!! Are we all trying out for our local teams?!!?!

 

[NewlyRetired]

If this is true, the owners basically just told the player "go ahead and strike"

Brian Strauss went and figured it out. Exactly 1 player in the entire league would qualify, Brad Davis.

Steven Goff @SoccerInsider Follow

Owners' apparent lone proposal: player age 32 with 10 years' experience with same club can become free agent. #mls

 

[NewlyRetired]

If this is true, the owners basically just told the player "go ahead and strike"

Brian Strauss went and figured it out. Exactly 1 player in the entire league would qualify, Brad Davis.

Steven Goff @SoccerInsider Follow

Owners' apparent lone proposal: player age 32 with 10 years' experience with same club can become free agent. #mls

hmmm.....

Jorge Arangure ✔ @jorgearangure Follow

Source close to negotiations on the 10 year/32 year old MLS FA proposal: "old info. we've moved and improved it since then."

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

If this is true, the owners basically just told the player "go ahead and strike"

Brian Strauss went and figured it out. Exactly 1 player in the entire league would qualify, Brad Davis.

Steven Goff @SoccerInsider Follow

Owners' apparent lone proposal: player age 32 with 10 years' experience with same club can become free agent. #mls

hmmm.....

Jorge Arangure ✔ @jorgearangure Follow

Source close to negotiations on the 10 year/32 year old MLS FA proposal: "old info. we've moved and improved it since then."

I'm about as pro-player as it gets, but if they've got an offer better than 10/32 on the table they might be smart to push as far as they can and take that deal.

Regardless, establishing that Free Agency isn't incompatible with the SEM would be a great win IMO -- even if it doesn't affect many players today.

Then whittle the terms of service and age down over time. Which the owners might also be willing to do as the league continues to grow.

 

[NewlyRetired]

If this is true, the owners basically just told the player "go ahead and strike"

Brian Strauss went and figured it out. Exactly 1 player in the entire league would qualify, Brad Davis.

Steven Goff @SoccerInsider Follow

Owners' apparent lone proposal: player age 32 with 10 years' experience with same club can become free agent. #mls

hmmm.....

Jorge Arangure ✔ @jorgearangure Follow

Source close to negotiations on the 10 year/32 year old MLS FA proposal: "old info. we've moved and improved it since then."

I'm about as pro-player as it gets, but if they've got an offer better than 10/32 on the table they might be smart to push as far as they can and take that deal. 6/26? 7/27?

Regardless, establishing that Free Agency isn't incompatible with the SEM would be a great win IMO -- even if it doesn't affect many players today.

Then whittle the terms of service and age down over time. Which the owners might also be willing to do as the league continues to grow.

Agreed all around (assuming anything being leaked is true).

the 10/32 was terrible because of the "same team" clause.

But if they can get something in the area you mentioned, that would be great but considering the comments coming from the agents about blowing up the negotiation process, I have to assume the improvement was not very much from that original offer.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Missed "same team" previously.

Sounds crazy, but any FA coming out of this deal is a good thing. The players get what they said they had to get, and establish that MLS will in fact have free agency.

But the owners don't have to deal with a free market for another CBA, and the two sides can go at each other hammer and tong about exactly how fast true free agency enters the league.

And even a drop of 1/1 (service/age) every five years gets you to about the same age that NFL players see free agency in about 25 years. When, presumably, the league is in a much stronger position.

 

[NewlyRetired]

Missed "same team" previously.

Sounds crazy, but any FA coming out of this deal is a good thing. The players get what they said they had to get, and establish that MLS will in fact have free agency.

But the owners don't have to deal with a free market for another CBA, and the two sides can go at each other hammer and tong about exactly how fast true free agency enters the league.

And even a drop of 1/1 (service/age) every five years gets you to about the same age that NFL players see free agency in about 25 years. When, presumably, the league is in a much stronger position.

It appears each side is having fun using the media as mouthpieces.

Jorge Arangure ✔ @jorgearangure Follow

Asked Source if we'll see FA in new CBA. Response: Yes. But only if they accept now. If they strike, FA will likely be pulled off the table

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Looks like possibly game over for any hope of starting the season on time. Wonderful first impression for 60k fans who bought tickets for Orlando this weekend. :(

========================================

CSN has learned that the MLS Players Union is close to walking away from the CBA negotiating table.

Multiple player agents spoke to CSN off-record today to stress that the negotiations are close to breaking down. It's possible that the players may formally walk away from the table as soon as this afternoon.

The agents say that the owners have refused to budge on the issue of free agency at all. Although they say the players are willing to be creative to find a solution that both allows for freer movement and keeps salary inflation under control, the owners refuse to consider any change to the way players move between clubs.

One agent wrote to CSN that "If the players are properly and financially supported throughout the strike...they would be on board for a long strike." The same agent went on to write "it doesn't look like the season will start this weekend."

Although the agent was careful to stress that his position was based only on the position of the players they represented, other agents expressed similar things.

Overnight, CSN was told that the union may have some powerful allies in the form of the other pro sports unions. It was suggested that the other unions would help to increase the player strike fund to allow for MLS players to make a living wage while on strike. The motivation to do so comes from a desire to see MLS move away from core concepts of single entity ownership. It's felt that the model is a threat to all professional sports in North America and there is a fear that other leagues could try to emulate all or parts of the system in the future. The other unions want to do what they can to make sure that doesn't happen.

It's worth noting that when MLSPU last challenged single entity in the courts it did so with the financial support of the NFLPA.

A threat to walk out is more likely a good sign the end is near, rather than bad. For all the posturing about FA, my uninformed guess is this is more about money and guaranteed contracts.

 

[The Gator]

Oof, Ben Foster gives away a pen in the third of there stoppage time minutes. Still can't stand Sherwood

 

[QuizGuy66]

Ugh Hand of Rod costs Hull City 2 points :(

27 down 13 to go

-QG

 

[QuizGuy66]

FFP regulations under attack

Manchester City’s hopes that Financial Fair Play (FFP) might be ruled illegal rest on a potentially hugely significant court case which opens in Brussels on Thursday.

The challenge to Uefa’s regime – which City fell foul of last year – has been brought by football agent Daniel Striani, and supporters of both City and Paris Saint-Germain, and will be heard over the next two days at the Court of First Instance in the Belgian capital.

Striani and the fans are being represented by Jean-Louis Dupont, one of the lawyers who secured the landmark Bosman ruling 20 years ago, with Dupont preparing to argue that FFP infringes competition law and should therefore be declared illegal.

European football’s governing body, Uefa – which will have its own legal representation in court – insists it has support for FFP from the European Commission, which in October decided not to investigate Striani’s case further. Legal opinion suggests that it may be more than a year before the case is resolved.

If they overturn FFP how will those big bad financial behemoths like Hull City escape punishment?

-QG