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***Official Soccer Discussion Thread*** (7 Viewers)

Slapdash said:
All you're really arguing is how adept Barcelona and Real are at scoring lots of goals and the differences in tactical style between the leagues. Even when losing, relegation-threatened Spanish teams like Rayo and Deportivo continue to attack instead of turtling in defense.
 

Results in the CL and Europa League, where comparable teams actually play, have shown the gap for years.

You're reaching, but need to justify this consistent failure somehow...
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Why do I have to justify something that isn't relevant to the conversation? The issue was depth. Depth concerns the ability of mid-table and bottom feeder teams to compete with the big boys week-in and week-out. CL and Europa are by definition competitions between the top 4 to 5 teams in all of the leagues.And that has nothing to do with the depth of the leagues.

All you need to know about the depth of the PL is to see who won this year.

 
Slapdash said:
All you're really arguing is how adept Barcelona and Real are at scoring lots of goals and the differences in tactical style between the leagues. Even when losing, relegation-threatened Spanish teams like Rayo and Deportivo continue to attack instead of turtling in defense.
 

Results in the CL and Europa League, where comparable teams actually play, have shown the gap for years.

You're reaching, but need to justify this consistent failure somehow...
Click to expand...
There is no competition for the worst 10 teams in each league.  But there does seem to be some evidence (like Christo's) that the bottom of some leagues are considerably worse than the bottom of the EPL.

 
Slapdash said:
All you're really arguing is how adept Barcelona and Real are at scoring lots of goals and the differences in tactical style between the leagues. Even when losing, relegation-threatened Spanish teams like Rayo and Deportivo continue to attack instead of turtling in defense.
 

Results in the CL and Europa League, where comparable teams actually play, have shown the gap for years.

You're reaching, but need to justify this consistent failure somehow...
Click to expand...
No mid-table or lower clubs play in those leagues.

if mid-tier and below La Liga teams attack relentlessly why aren't they scoring more?  And why is their attendance so atrocious?

http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/aveesp.htm

The EPL has one team with below 90% average attendance, La Liga has one team above 90% average attendance.

No matter who they support, fans don't show up to watch teams get blown out of the water.  It's boring.

 
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Christo said:
Oh, and perhaps they should rethink their tactics. They don't seem to be working.
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My guess is that this simply reflects the differences between tiebreaking in La Liga versus the EPL.  There is no penalty to losing 6-0 to Barcelona in La Liga.  Net GD doesn't factor into the tie breaker.  So why not play to get a goal back?

 
I don't know who this guy is, someone on Twitter. Amazing stat, and Spain could add two more tomorrow. 

Colin Millar–  ‏@Millar_Colin

UPDATE: Spanish clubs now won 14 of 14 knockout ties v non Spanish clubs this season. 45 of 48 in last three seasons.

1:39 PM - 4 May 2016

 
CletiusMaximus said:
I don't know who this guy is, someone on Twitter. Amazing stat, and Spain could add two more tomorrow. 

Colin Millar–  ‏@Millar_Colin

UPDATE: Spanish clubs now won 14 of 14 knockout ties v non Spanish clubs this season. 45 of 48 in last three seasons.

1:39 PM - 4 May 2016
Click to expand...
Its those damn siestas they allow in La Liga.  

 
The last 10 CL finals by country:

Spain/Spain
Spain/Italy
Spain/Spain
Germany/Germany
England/Germany
Spain/England
Italy/Germany
Spain/England
England/England
Italy/England
Totals - Spain = 7, England = 6, Germany = 4, Italy = 3
Champs - Spain = 5, England = 2, Italy = 2 , Germany = 1

I don't know what it means, just looking at the numbers.
Also in that time Bayern has won once, finished 2nd twice and lost in the semis three times.  So, each of Pep's seasons they lost to Spanish sides and the eventual winner the last two.  :wall:   This bodes well for Atletico.

 
Simply put, there's no evidence either way that the bottom half of the EPL is better than the bottom half of la Liga. 

However, it is definitive that the top half of la Liga IS better than the EPL top half.

What's more exciting / interesting is up to the beholder, but if parity is your thing, you should consider MLS or LMX.

 
Christo said:
Why do I have to justify something that isn't relevant to the conversation? The issue was depth. Depth concerns the ability of mid-table and bottom feeder teams to compete with the big boys week-in and week-out. CL and Europa are by definition competitions between the top 4 to 5 teams in all of the leagues.And that has nothing to do with the depth of the leagues.

All you need to know about the depth of the PL is to see who won this year.
Click to expand...
If you wanted to see competition vs the big boys, why did you leave out Atletico? 

You aren't determining anything in your post.  All you're really pointing out is that two of the historically great attacking forces can score goals in bunches.  Pretty clear a front line of Ronaldo-Benzama-Bale or Neymar-Suarez-Messi is going to have massive offensive success in any league, half of them scored prolifically in England too.  Now they are surrounded by even more talent.  There are maybe a few attackers in the entire EPL close to that level and no team has three of them.

 
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jonessed said:
No mid-table or lower clubs play in those leagues.

if mid-tier and below La Liga teams attack relentlessly why aren't they scoring more?  And why is their attendance so atrocious?

http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/aveesp.htm

The EPL has one team with below 90% average attendance, La Liga has one team above 90% average attendance.

No matter who they support, fans don't show up to watch teams get blown out of the water.  It's boring.
Click to expand...
Atrocious?  Spain is averaging 28k this year despite having one stadium less than 6k.  And your site shows it growing 5.4% this season as opposed to the decline in England. 

Further, most smaller clubs enjoy their highest attendance of the year during those "boring" visits from Real Madrid and Barcelona.  Their fans want to see the best in the world play.  You have it completely backwards.

Spain is smaller that England, less wealthy, and has been going through a recession most of the past 8 years.  We shouldn't be surprised that it is averaging 8k less in attendance per match.  That doesn't make it atrocious.  :lol:

 
wdcrob said:
There is no competition for the worst 10 teams in each league.  But there does seem to be some evidence (like Christo's) that the bottom of some leagues are considerably worse than the bottom of the EPL.
Click to expand...
Or evidence that the strikers at the top of La Liga are much better than at the top of the EPL. 

 
The Z Machine said:
Simply put, there's no evidence either way that the bottom half of the EPL is better than the bottom half of la Liga. 

However, it is definitive that the top half of la Liga IS better than the EPL top half.

What's more exciting / interesting is up to the beholder, but if parity is your thing, you should consider MLS or LMX.
Click to expand...
At least the same guys can't go around claiming La Liga is two teams and then #### like they were a few years ago.  Now they're left arguing about matchups like Aston Villa vs. Levante and claiming fans of teams like Eibar are bored when Messi and Ronaldo come to town. :lol:

 
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Guys, guys,....the problem here is the Anglo's cold & calculated pragmatism  vs Iberian/Mediterranean's penchant for passion & theatrics...never the 'twain shall meet...

 
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I do enjoy how Barcelona's 4-0 win over Real in  November is in the list of supposed evidence about bottom-feeders :lmao:

 
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Atletico Madrid has only won one game all season by 4 or more goals (5-1), yet is even on points with first place and in the CL final. What great evidence of the parity and depth of La Liga! I'm sure Christo just forgot about them.

Or maybe margin of victory has more to do with the style they play....

 
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3 teams all separated by less than a point at the top of la liga where as the EPL is already wrapped up, what this tells me is that the EPL teams care more about concentrating on the league than they do the cup :shrug: still doesn't point to who is stronger....

 
The Z Machine said:
Simply put, there's no evidence either way that the bottom half of the EPL is better than the bottom half of la Liga. 

However, it is definitive that the top half of la Liga IS better than the EPL top half.

What's more exciting / interesting is up to the beholder, but if parity is your thing, you should consider MLS or LMX.
Click to expand...
No one wants parity... they were just suggesting that you can't coast in the EPL.  IIRC there is a LOT more money outside the top-X teams.  So the bottom teams are better, and they at least attempt to put up a fight for the points.  At least that's my impression of what the argument was about.  YMMV on both pieces.

 
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Time for a weekly Bundesliga upate.

But before that, one more example of frustration at Bayern getting knocked out of the CL:
Bayern are 39-7-4  118:29 in all competitions this season.
They were 6-0-0 21:4 at home in the CL, and 2-2-2 9:7 on the road.
Half of all their losses, and 1/4 of all goals allowed where on the road in the CL. 

Moving on.
Two weeks to go.
 

Top three:
Bayern 26-4-2 82 75-15 +60
Dortmund 24-5-3 77 80-31 +49
Leverkusen 17-6-9 57 52-36 +16


Bayern simply need two points out of the next two weeks, or for Dortmund to not get six.  All three of the above have clinched Champions League Group Stage.

The next 4
Gladbach 15-4-13 49 63-49 +14
Berlin 14-7-11 49 41-40 + 1
Schalke 14-6-12 48 46-47 - 1
Mainz 13-7-12 46 43-41 + 2


The top of this grouping will get into the Champions league Playoff round.  Goal diff is the tie-breaker after points.
The next three get Europa League at various stages.
Köln and Ingolstadt have a chance to overtake Mainz, but they each play either Dortmund or Bayern in the next two weeks.  Making their chances slimmer.

Relelgation and the bottom 5
Darmstadt 8-11-13 35 36-50 -14
Bremen 9- 7-16 34 49-65 -16
Frankfurt 8- 9-15 33 33-51 -18
Stuttgart 9- 6-17 33 48-69 -21
Hannover 6- 4-22 22 29-59 -30


Hannover is going straight down, ending a 14 year run in the top level.
The second from bottom goes straight down as well, and third from the bottom is the relegation playoff spot.
Wolfsburg, Hamburger, Augsburg and Hoffenheim are mathematically in danger, but pretty much not.
Bremen, champs in 2004 have been up 35 years.  Stuttgart, champs in 2007 have been up 39 years.

Promotion
Freiburg 21-6-5 69 72-37 +35
Leipzig 19-7-6 64 52-31 +21
Nürnberg 17-8-7 59 66-41 +25


Freiburg has secured straight promotion after only one year down.
Leipzig only need two points to secure straight promotion.  They were just promoted to BL2 in 2014!
Nurnberg were sent down in 2014.

A side note, Paderborn was promoted to BL1 in 2014 for the first time.  The were promptly relegated back to BL2 and are now in danger of dropping to BL3.  Imaging the high of making the top flight for the first time then two straight drops to third division.  oof.

 
wdcrob said:
No one wants parity... they were just suggesting that you can't coast in the EPL.  IIRC there is a LOT more money outside the top-X teams.  So the bottom teams are better, and they at least attempt to put up a fight for the points.  At least that's my impression of what the argument was about.  YMMV on both pieces.
Click to expand...
I like parity, but that's not going to happen in soccer.  I will have to settle for exciting.

 
so spanish bottom teams lose big, but look pretty while losing big.

english bottom teams lose small, but look grim while losing or winning.

 
I just went back 10 years and this is the only year that Leicester would have won the title with fewer than 86 points.  In fact there's only one season in the last 10 that 81 points (a tie and win in the last two) would have been enough.

So...

Leicester has raft of perfect buys and unexpected development.

Those players stay healthy all year.

And they win it with a point total that would only be good enough about 10% of the time.  And that's giving them four points from the last two...three points (80pts +30gd) wouldn't be good enough in any of at least 15 years.

Crazy.

 
Sebowski said:
He's right. Go apples-to-apples. When Liga teams play EPL teams, who wins? I wouldn't be surprised to see it was 70% Liga. 
Click to expand...
That's probably because EPL teams are focusing on the league.

 
wdcrob said:
I just went back 10 years and this is the only year that Leicester would have won the title with fewer than 86 points.  In fact there's only one season in the last 10 that 81 points (a tie and win in the last two) would have been enough.

So...

Leicester has raft of perfect buys and unexpected development.

Those players stay healthy all year. AND they can concentrate on the league

And they win it with a point total that would only be good enough about 10% of the time.  And that's giving them four points from the last two...three points (80pts +30gd) wouldn't be good enough in any of at least 15 years.

Crazy.
Click to expand...
added some notes.  :D

Quite a story by Leicester, but also the perfect storm of traditionally top teams failing to impress.  With City up and down, Chelsea crapping the bed and United going full LVG, this really should have been Arsenal's return to the top.

And no, I am not disparaging LC's achievement.  since last year when they were bottom of the table they have made mind blowing run.   

 
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B Maverick said:
added some notes.  :D

Quite a story by Leicester, but also the perfect storm of traditionally top teams failing to impress.  With City up and down, Chelsea crapping the bed and United going full LVG, this really should have been Arsenal's return to the top.
Click to expand...
Which is way I've been finally been swayed to the anti-Wenger side. 

 
wdcrob said:
I just went back 10 years and this is the only year that Leicester would have won the title with fewer than 86 points.  In fact there's only one season in the last 10 that 81 points (a tie and win in the last two) would have been enough.

So...

Leicester has raft of perfect buys and unexpected development.

Those players stay healthy all year.

And they win it with a point total that would only be good enough about 10% of the time.  And that's giving them four points from the last two...three points (80pts +30gd) wouldn't be good enough in any of at least 15 years.

Crazy.
Click to expand...
Still amazing how much Chelsea collapsed at the start of the year while City has been off focusing on something else.  The two favorites only managed a 4th place finish at best

 
wdcrob said:
No one wants parity...
Click to expand...
I like parity.  I realize it can't work in most soccer leagues but I still appreciate the idea that you can build a team beyond just spending 10 times more than the next team.  It just seems more sporting to me in some ways.

 
Slapdash said:
"Lies about Pepe"
Click to expand...
The Gunners who backed Arsene, even though they knew what a buffoon and demagogue he was, never got over the stain. It ruined Arsenal's historical reputation. 

I suspect this current crop will suffer the same eventual fate.

edited to add that I need a shower now after going in the Trump thread to doctor a Tim post.

 
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