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***Official Soccer Discussion Thread*** (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter Ramsay Hunt Experience
- Start date
Sebowski
Footballguy
apparently this is the first Europa game that ever mattered according to this thread.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
The Boro-Brighton match is on BeIN at 7:30 eastern tomorrow morning. Which naturally conflicts with Norwich's desperation grapple with Manyoo at 7:45.
GULLS!
GULLS!
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Just some fun trivia I recently saw - in the famous 2013 Leicester City- Watford Championship playoff second leg (http://youtu.be/kJYtDPcd-fU ), Vardy, Drinkwater and Harry Kane all started for Leicester City ... on the bench. Vardy never made it into the game, while the other two were second half subs. Palace ended up beating Watford to win promotion that year, but this is still one of the greatest endings I've ever seen.
Sammy3469
Footballguy
Yes..the only way the 4th place finisher wouldn't would be if both the Europa and CL winner comes from your league, but is outside a qualifying position (ie. 4th in the EPL).
roadkill1292
Footballguy
One more time, assuming Manyoo wins the Cup, does seventh place get into Europa if Liverpool wins it? What if Liverpool wins it and finishes seventh?
Sammy3469
Footballguy
It's my understanding, England gets 3 Europa slots no matter what. Usually they are for 5th, FA, and Capital One. City won the Capital One, so that should revert to the standings which means the 6th gets in for sure.
Since Palace can still win the FA Cup, they could take the 3rd slot. If not it'll be the 7th place team.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
Let's assume this scenario. Top four are Leicester, Totnum, Arsenal and Citeh. United finishes fifth and wins the Cup and Liverpool finishes seventh and wins Europa. Who goes where?
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Here is every scenario explained for UEFA competitions for English teams
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_football_clubs_in_international_competitions
shader
Footballguy
roadkill1292
Footballguy
That's very helpful for an old simpleton like me. So we Soton fans need Manyoo to win the Cup (yuck) and then Liverpool to drop a few points in their last three matches. AND beat Spurz and Palace. That's a lot when I write it all out. Still gotta dream.
shader
Footballguy
LIV have 3 games in 6 days, are already exhausted, and have to also prepare for a final.
#BattleForSeventh should be close
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roadkill1292
Footballguy
Hopefully their three mid-table opponents with nothing to play for will show some pride much like Chelski did against Spurs and give them a go. Then again, Spurs could beat Southampton Sunday and pretty much end the speculation.
The Gator
Footballguy
Liverpool have one game left that counts. You should see a ton of youth minutes in the league while they concentrate on the Europa League.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
Still lots of scenarios, including one where Liverpool loses to Sevilla and then finishes eighth. It would be dreamy if it was West Brom who did them in.
shader
Footballguy
I think that outside of Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern and PSG, the EPL is head and shoulders above everyone else. If you made an all-star team of the best players that are outside of those four teams, I'd imagine the EPL would figure prominently into the discussion.
I think that Man City, by hiring Pep, desperately wants to be that 5th "super rich" team, but their problem is that they play in a league where everyone has a ton of money.
I thought before the year that the days of the "big four" in the premier league were over, and I'm still 100% confident in that.
shader
Footballguy
There's a very good chance that the loser of the Europa won't have any European football next season. Makes for a fascinating game.
shader
Footballguy
So a question I've seen debated by Liverpool fans is this: "Which is more important for the team, getting a CL spot, or winning a Europa League Trophy?"
Many fans look at the win as a trophy, but primarily as a way to the CL. That's kind of how I view it.
But other fans are saying that just winning the trophy is in itself a much bigger accomplishment than simply getting a CL spot and that the trophy itself is the most important thing.
As an American, I still at times struggle to get a handle on the importance of the different trophies.
When I first started following, I viewed the CL as the NCAA tourney, and the Europa as the NIT.
It seems, though, that the comparison isn't quite accurate, as the Europa has more prestige than the NIT.
Anyway, I'd love to hear what you guys think about it.
Many fans look at the win as a trophy, but primarily as a way to the CL. That's kind of how I view it.
But other fans are saying that just winning the trophy is in itself a much bigger accomplishment than simply getting a CL spot and that the trophy itself is the most important thing.
As an American, I still at times struggle to get a handle on the importance of the different trophies.
When I first started following, I viewed the CL as the NCAA tourney, and the Europa as the NIT.
It seems, though, that the comparison isn't quite accurate, as the Europa has more prestige than the NIT.
Anyway, I'd love to hear what you guys think about it.
Sure, and if you took away all of Messi's goals, he'd be an average player....the reality is the best players in the world play outside if England. There are still a lot of very good players in England, but not many "elite" players.
And, I would also argue that today - Atletico, Dortmund, and Juventus are above any of the EPL teams.
As for going forward, I think it will be difficult, but not impossible, for another Leicester City. I do think that Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea and Liverpool will continue to outspend everyone. This year just happened to be that rare year where they were all really in transition. Spurs are likely to stay contenders with the best core group of young players in the league, and the new stadium, and Arsenal may actually buy a few players one of these years. But, all the England teams will be flush with cash, and can buy a lot of foreign talent and pay wages that the other leagues simply can't support. The question will be one of scouting, and how quickly teams can integrate players.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
At some point in time you would think the money flowing into PL from Asia and the western hemisphere would result in the talent being ever more diffused among ever more clubs. I know it's hard to conceive of the big clubs in Spain and Germany ever not able to field all star teams, but even in my short period of observation that seems to be nibbling away a little.
Things change, even in footy.
Things change, even in footy.
The Gator
Footballguy
shader
Footballguy
It's a very strange scenario. It seems to me that if any player is deemed as "good enough" to crack the starting XI of Real/Bayern/Barcelona, than he goes to one of those three teams. To a lesser extent, PSG and Juventus. I'd argue that Atletico is not as talented throughout their XI as the other teams, but is insanely good at what they do, which is playing defense. But as I've watched 2 Atletico games in my life, I'm probably not the expert on that!
Anyway, how does the EPL overcome this? Gather up all the A- and B+ players in the world? That seems to be the way it's headed.
I think that once you get past the top superstars that play for the top 3-4 teams, you get into a much bigger playing field, and you lose that "top level" scoring ability. So when you look at teams like Man City and ManU, you see two teams that are desperately trying to "buy" trophies by spending a lot of money. But the problem is that the players they are buying aren't really all that better than the other teams in the EPL.
I just don't think it's going to be possible for any EPL team to outclass the rest of the league, unless one of the teams can get to the point where they can actually compete with Barcelona/Real/Bayern for the elite players. I imagine that's City's intentions with hiring Pep, but City is an Arsenal loss away from staring the Europa league in the face next season, and their team honestly feels like a total mish-mash of talent. Pep has a tough job on his hands.
El Floppo
Footballguy
it's all about hardware.
Europa is a big competition. yeah- it's not CL, but once you're in a spot to win the thing? Huge. IMO, bigger than a CL spot (but obviously serves both purposes).
I wonder which is bigger- FA Cup or Europa.
I'd start the thinking with this: every team in england is eligible for the FA cup every year. only a few for Europe... plus, playing against the almost best of the rest of the Europe rather than against your usual peers and their lessers.
don't get me wrong- I freaking love the FA cup. I'd guess it's probably on equal footing for english teams vis a vis the above hardware comment.
Sammy3469
Footballguy
Barca and Real still make more than any EPL and PSG/Bayern aren't far behind.
The EPL still has one problem for all these clubs, the homegrown rule and in some cases a much harder process for getting a WP. This is coupled with most South Americans preferring to go to Spain and Eastern Europeans preferring Germany or Italy (at least for their initial move to/in Europe). Yes, the EPL is flush with money, but that money is still chasing around a fairly limited pool of talent.
shader
Footballguy
Things do change. To even suggest a year ago that the Big Four in the EPL don't have a stranglehold on the top was considered laughable. Now everyone can see that the money is going to widen the number of competitors.
How are the Bundesliga and Ligue One and Serie A going to keep up? This summer, the EPL is going to absolutely strip these other leagues of talent, as there will be piles of money, and lots of angry teams that had poor seasons. Bayern and PSG may win their leagues by January next season. That's just not competitive and it's not fun.
So at some point, players are going to say "playing for Bayern is boring, I want big money, and I want to play in the best league in the world". At that point, PSG and Bayern will head downhill.
My totally amateur and completely meaningless prediction is that in 5 years, the EPL and La Liga will be the only leagues that matter, and Bayern/PSG/Juventus will be behind the top EPL teams in money and in talent.
CGRdrJoe
Footballguy
I couldn't disagree with you more but 3 cups of coffee this morning has my brain doing weird things and for some reason I can't put together sentences.It's a very strange scenario. It seems to me that if any player is deemed as "good enough" to crack the starting XI of Real/Bayern/Barcelona, than he goes to one of those three teams. To a lesser extent, PSG and Juventus. I'd argue that Atletico is not as talented throughout their XI as the other teams, but is insanely good at what they do, which is playing defense. But as I've watched 2 Atletico games in my life, I'm probably not the expert on that!
Anyway, how does the EPL overcome this? Gather up all the A- and B+ players in the world? That seems to be the way it's headed.
I think that once you get past the top superstars that play for the top 3-4 teams, you get into a much bigger playing field, and you lose that "top level" scoring ability. So when you look at teams like Man City and ManU, you see two teams that are desperately trying to "buy" trophies by spending a lot of money. But the problem is that the players they are buying aren't really all that better than the other teams in the EPL.
I just don't think it's going to be possible for any EPL team to outclass the rest of the league, unless one of the teams can get to the point where they can actually compete with Barcelona/Real/Bayern for the elite players. I imagine that's City's intentions with hiring Pep, but City is an Arsenal loss away from staring the Europa league in the face next season, and their team honestly feels like a total mish-mash of talent. Pep has a tough job on his hands.
The Gator
Footballguy
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roadkill1292
Footballguy
Sammy makes a good point above about the home grown rule holding PL back internationally but that's not set in stone, no matter who supports it now. Eventually, the money will have to matter more. If PL has a chance to get the next Messi/Ronaldo and a bunch of other great players by outbidding the big guns on the continent, they will get them. Of course, it would help greatly if an English club or two could win a European tournament once in a while along the way.
Unless they all go off to China, of course.
Man, I wish our clubs could be players in all this.
Kafka
Footballguy
Kafka
Footballguy
Mjolnirs
Footballguy
Using the Guardian's top 100 players, I took the top 50 and removed Real, Barca, Atletico, Bayern, PSG & Juve players.
That left 16, and of those 16, 11 are in EPL.
9 Sergio Agüero Manchester City
10 Alexis Sánchez Arsenal
13 Eden Hazard Chelsea
14 Kevin De Bruyne Manchester City
17 Carlos Tevez Boca Juniors
18 David de Gea Manchester United
26 Mesut Özil Arsenal
27 Pierre Aubameyang Borussia Dortmund
29 Yaya Touré Manchester City
30 David Silva Manchester City
36 Thibaut Courtois Chelsea
38 Harry Kane Tottenham Hotspur
42 Andrea Pirlo New York City FC
46 Philippe Coutinho Liverpool
48 Gonzalo Higuaín Napoli
50 Marco Reus Borussia Dortmund
Of course, that also means the only of 11 of the top 50 are in the EPL.
That left 16, and of those 16, 11 are in EPL.
9 Sergio Agüero Manchester City
10 Alexis Sánchez Arsenal
13 Eden Hazard Chelsea
14 Kevin De Bruyne Manchester City
17 Carlos Tevez Boca Juniors
18 David de Gea Manchester United
26 Mesut Özil Arsenal
27 Pierre Aubameyang Borussia Dortmund
29 Yaya Touré Manchester City
30 David Silva Manchester City
36 Thibaut Courtois Chelsea
38 Harry Kane Tottenham Hotspur
42 Andrea Pirlo New York City FC
46 Philippe Coutinho Liverpool
48 Gonzalo Higuaín Napoli
50 Marco Reus Borussia Dortmund
Of course, that also means the only of 11 of the top 50 are in the EPL.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
As long as the Brazilian, at least, club system is so inefficient, La Liga will always have the best inroads into that vast pool of South American talent. It will take a lot of time and money for other leagues to overcome that, which boils down to PL and its massive television revenues.
Sebowski
Footballguy
roadkill1292
Footballguy
This is a really good point even if it's at odds with everything else I've been saying. I've read some pretty informed opinions that the football-crazy areas containing Newcastle and Sunderland, etc., are at a distinct disadvantage in recruitment because, well, of where they are and what they are.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Kafka
Footballguy
The one problem I can't wrap my head around, is that FFP seems to keep the already established top team$ in power, ex post facto. The reason it's brought to my attention, is because Roma is in an annual dilemma of selling good players to balance the books NOW, whereas established top-tier teams (especially nouveau riche) already had their finances "in place", so any fines would just be a slap on the wrist. I blame Platini (& by proxy Charvik) for this " the rich get richer" scheme, but I am also prone to pessimism & hyperbole. To be honest, I really don't see how this balances out the $chism between the plebians & the proletariat...2¢.
Since you've only watched 2 Atletico Madrid games in your life, I'm going to doubt you have seen much Bundesliga, Ligue Un, or Seria 1 games. A little weird to be predicting their demise.
To expand on my point to Sinn Finn yesterday, it doesn't bother me that people prefer to watch/pull for the EPL for whatever reasons they do. But when you form such sweeping opinions about leagues or teams you admittedly never watch, that gets annoying.
Sebowski
Footballguy
Yeah, Cletius called this when it was going to start. Its making it hard for teams to break through the glass ceiling.
Kafka
Footballguy
Glass ceiling?! ...Wait, what? Mother####er, so you're basically saying ASR have ######s?
#BOYCOTT OCELOT#
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Kafka
Footballguy
Cmon man, one loss does not a season make!it must be summer, and all competitions are already done...
At least you used an unbiased source...
