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***Official Soccer Discussion Thread*** (8 Viewers)
- Thread starter Ramsay Hunt Experience
- Start date
shader
Footballguy
Yeah, some reddit guys are claiming that this isn't the Pogba money.
If that's true, I don't know why Pogba would leave. Wait one more year and try to win the Champions League. If he really wants to go to ManU, go next year once they've qualified.
B Maverick
Footballguy
shader
Footballguy
Question on the long-term ramifications of Juventus, PSG and Bayern Munich and their dominance.
These three teams are spending mad cash and are so far ahead of their league rivals that the league almost becomes a joke. While that's good in a way, is it really good for them long-term?
How much interest is there really in watching any of those three leagues? I suppose with Borussia, the Bundesliga is the only of the three where there is a competitor, but that will never happen as long as Borussia is forced to sell players once they mature.
The EPL has 6-7 teams with a legitimate shot at the title. La Liga has 3. I think that makes those two TV contracts much more valuable, and longterm it may be tough for PSG, Juventus and Bayern to compete financially. Obviously this isn't the case just yet, but 5-10 years of massive TV money for EPL teams haven't happened yet. When they do, the tide may really shift.
The CL needs to be reformatted, imo, to maximize potential TV dollars for a new contract.
These three teams are spending mad cash and are so far ahead of their league rivals that the league almost becomes a joke. While that's good in a way, is it really good for them long-term?
How much interest is there really in watching any of those three leagues? I suppose with Borussia, the Bundesliga is the only of the three where there is a competitor, but that will never happen as long as Borussia is forced to sell players once they mature.
The EPL has 6-7 teams with a legitimate shot at the title. La Liga has 3. I think that makes those two TV contracts much more valuable, and longterm it may be tough for PSG, Juventus and Bayern to compete financially. Obviously this isn't the case just yet, but 5-10 years of massive TV money for EPL teams haven't happened yet. When they do, the tide may really shift.
The CL needs to be reformatted, imo, to maximize potential TV dollars for a new contract.
El Floppo
Footballguy
Kafka
Footballguy
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
You guys must realize he is doing complete schtick by this point .....right? He is running the entire suite of snobbery so well that I just read the posts assuming his tongue is planted deep in his cheek.......Damn, RHE...you WEREN'T joking!....Snobbery of the highest proportions!
{at least I hope that is what he is doing}
Kafka
Footballguy
Yes...no...maybe? I do appreciate the moxy, though.
Eta: Hey, he's a fan! That's enough for me
Last edited by a moderator:
roadkill1292
Footballguy
How would you like to reformat CL?
What's the benefit to the fans for maximizing potential TV money?
Kafka
Footballguy
R= LIVERPOOL!
AAABatteries
Footballguy
My founding member supporters flag came while we were on vacation in NY - I'll try to post a pic when I get home and check it out.
Cheap beer and watching Balotelli would be a great way to watch the MLS in person for the first time.
shader
Footballguy
I don't know what I'm missing here. I seem to have touched a nerve. I just honestly wondered what people thought about the financial state of the game in Europe.
Please remember, I'm quite new. So maybe this stuff has happened plenty of times over the years. But from a newbie perspective, it seems as if Juventus, Bayern and PSG are pulling further and further ahead of their rivals in their perspective leagues. Is that not true? If so, how can you sell those leagues to a global audience, and what happens to those top teams if their leagues fall further and further behind in the TV money race?
There's no shtick, I'm honestly wondering.
As for the reformatting of the CL, I'm not wanting to do this in some way that guarantees Liverpool a shot. Cmon guys. If we finish 8th in the league, we don't deserve the CL. I'm not that petty.
shader
Footballguy
Eephus
Footballguy
The big clubs want to replace the Champions League with a Superleague of big clubs. There would probably be some very limited promotion/relegation system but the goals are a bigger cut of TV money and guaranteed franchise stability if a giant had an off year or two.
I don't see how this helps the game. The champions of Macedonia and Kazakhstan would presumably be left on the outside and the potential huge payday of advancing to the knockouts would be lost. It also would reduce interest in national leagues because finishing runner-up to PSG in Ligue Oon wouldn't have as much value. There's been talk about this for as long as I've been following the sport. The only saving grace is the big clubs can't agree on anything which helps the status quo.
I don't see how this helps the game. The champions of Macedonia and Kazakhstan would presumably be left on the outside and the potential huge payday of advancing to the knockouts would be lost. It also would reduce interest in national leagues because finishing runner-up to PSG in Ligue Oon wouldn't have as much value. There's been talk about this for as long as I've been following the sport. The only saving grace is the big clubs can't agree on anything which helps the status quo.
jonessed
Footballguy
I would hate to see something like this happen. It's not just the minnows falling out, it would be everybody but the very top tier. It would impact every league.
The big teams already have huge financial advantages. If they can't maintain consistency that's their problem.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
United (or Real Madrid) get Pogba
Juventus get 130mil Euros (or Higuain + 40mil)
Napoli get 90mil Euros for Higuain (or Milik + 55mil)
Ajax get 35mil Euros for Milik, paid 3mil for him one year ago.
Who is the big winner? Ajax!
(probably Porto or Benfica as well, we just don't know why or how yet)
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
While I agree with your comments, I think a similar sentiment was heard in the early 90's when Uefa moved to the current format. Perhaps the traditionalist voices weren't very loud at the time, but there was definitely concern that admitting second, third and fourth place teams into a tournament previously reserved for Champions would lessen the value of the cup. In retrospect, I think the current format is almost unquestionably better than the old single stage knock out tournament. Perhaps we'll be saying the same, or our kids will, after the next format change has had time to season and grow on us.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
I think you'd also end up seeing 2-4 clubs emerging as the dominant force in the Super League too. It might actually make things worse in terms of competition.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
I'm the resident "scrap the Champions League and just create a SuperLeague" guy. My motives are entirely selfish. I want to see Barca play Chelsea, Bayern Munich, PSG, and Juventus twice a year. And it would make my life easier to follow one league. Heck, I already mostly follow one league and it's not even the best one. This way, I'd get the best players, and the best resources devoted to covering them.
Now, I get that I have a very American perspective to this. I don't care what this would do to Fulham or Nice or Stuttgart or Lazio (who am I kidding, Lazio can burn). I understand people who don't want to lose connections to those teams and who worry about what would happen to the teams left out. But the thing is that the type of people with my perspective are becoming more of the audience. I'm sure a billion Chinese have a limited capacity to follow leagues as well.
I also understand the argument that we wouldn't have a Leicester story. My response to that is that it's already crazy that we had a Leicester story under the current system, and that under the Super League, maybe Marseille winning would be your Leicester story. There's still a decent gap between Real Madrid and the 20th biggest team in the world.
Now, I get that I have a very American perspective to this. I don't care what this would do to Fulham or Nice or Stuttgart or Lazio (who am I kidding, Lazio can burn). I understand people who don't want to lose connections to those teams and who worry about what would happen to the teams left out. But the thing is that the type of people with my perspective are becoming more of the audience. I'm sure a billion Chinese have a limited capacity to follow leagues as well.
I also understand the argument that we wouldn't have a Leicester story. My response to that is that it's already crazy that we had a Leicester story under the current system, and that under the Super League, maybe Marseille winning would be your Leicester story. There's still a decent gap between Real Madrid and the 20th biggest team in the world.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
My main problem with the super league is that there's going to be a severe lack of churn in the ranks. If it were to happen, I'd like to see only the top 10 teams guaranteed places next year with the other 10 teams needing to qualify to get in. But really, that's just a CL group stage reformatted to be a "table". And is a home-home, table based system better than a knock-out playoff? The American in me says no.
shader
Footballguy
I watch the Bundesliga. But I don't see how I need to watch French or Italian league games to see what is happening there. Do I need to watch a set number of games to have an opinion? Didn't PSG win their league by like February? Again, we just may be in the middle of a cyclical balance of power that I can't see due to my limited perspective. But I don't think so, I think that we are dealing with teams that have financially put themselves far ahead of their league-mates and there isn't anyone that can check them, inside their league. Which makes the league a foregone conclusion.
By the way, this isn't just "Shader's opinion". It's a pretty common talking point around the game, at least on the internet. I just wondered what you guys thought.
Eephus
Footballguy
If one of the previous attempts at a Superleague succeeded, both Milan clubs would be in and Atletico and Man City would be out. Fortunes rise and fall but a closed shop would effectively freeze the current hierarchy. Even if the system allowed for promotion/relegation, the member clubs would have such a huge financial advantage that stasis would be the likely long-term outcome.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
Is churn necessary or even desirable? I think it would very likely be a closed league just as the NBA, the NFL and so many other leagues are. I imagine the owners would demand it.
Yeah. Probably worth doing if you're asking the question about why people would want to watch those leagues. Different people prefer different styles.
I disagree with about all of this....except the #### Lazio bit. Racist aholes
El Floppo
Footballguy
but while we're at it, let's just close off the WC and make it Brazil, Argie, Germany and Italy only.
shader
Footballguy
I 100% get the appeal of a super league. It would make crazy money. I also understand the downside to it. I think that could be resolved "somewhat" by having a certain number of "at-large" teams, but it still leaves a lot of teams out in the cold.
The real issue with the CL, one that I've seen written about a lot, is that many of the games are boring.
Look for instance at Barcelona last year. They played six games in the group stages against Bayer Leverkusen, Roma and FC BATE Borisov. The Roma game is appealing, but are any of the other ones? You have a team that has a higher draw than any team on the planet, and those are the opponents!
The problem when you let all these teams from lower leagues in, is that you have a lot of boring games and while it's cool to see the smaller teams get a chance, they aren't bringing in big ratings.
Solution? I have no idea.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
I'm as new as you are and meant no hostility by my questions. Well, I'm hostile to a Super League concept because of, well, Liverpool, but that should be understandable to almost everyone.
I watch a decent amount of Bundesliga, Serie A, La Liga and League Un (ok, a little bit of League 1) and, yeah, I'd like to see a little more competitive balance in those leagues. But the fact is that PSG, Juvie and Bayern haven't been dominating them for very long and there's no guarantee that they'll dominate in the decades to come. (Notice how I adroitly sidestep the Barca/Real situation, which I actually think can be helped a lot with a decent TV revenue-sharing plan) And if they're not particularly competitive, that's no skin off my nose, really. Those leagues will do what they have to to compete with the Prem -- if they feel it necessary to actually compete with the Prem.
El Floppo
Footballguy
Inter and Milan have been fighting it out this century until recently, but it's always been Juve and BM.
shader
Footballguy
Here's my opinion on this. Ultimately I think the fact that those teams haven't been dominating for long is the reason nothing has changed yet. People feel that maybe this is cyclical.
I suppose my question is what happens if it's not. What if the massive money that is now flowing into the game is causing a wider and wider separation to take place. What if 5 years from now, PSG, Juventus and Bayern are even further ahead of their league-mates than they are now? Is that really good for their leagues?
As the game goes worldwide and more and more fans "pick" leagues to watch (can't watch them all), how would those three leagues keep up? And ultimately would the dominance of those three teams backfire as their leagues lose importance in the eyes of fans? Further, would big players decide that it's boring to spend 80% of their year in a non-competitive league and yearn for the competitive nature of La Liga and the EPL?
I'm just throwing stuff out there because it's interesting.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
There's always some confusion in these discussions due to the wide variety of proposals that have been floated. It seems to me the type of league you're contemplating would mean the Super League clubs would no longer play in their domestic leagues, but would get a full league schedule in the Super League of 38 games rather than a tournament? I think this type of proposal is on the far end of the spectrum as to what has been proposed. If that were to happen, I assume for example the English clubs would have to leave the FA, meaning they would not participate in the FA Cup, League Cup, etc. In the end, these Super clubs would in most cases be playing fewer games each year than they do now.
The Kansas Comet
Footballguy
El Floppo
Footballguy
roadkill1292
Footballguy
Of course, I should have remembered reading that. The question that comes to me is, are there inherent advantages held by those clubs or do they just have the widest and most avid support?
Inter and Milan have been fighting it out this century until recently, but it's always been Juve and BM.
I think I've made my feelings about people who latch on to the Yankees/Lakers, etc. and the same thing holds for people who, given a choice, pick the strongest football club with the most advantages to support.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
I think it's interesting, too. And I'm not even opposed to a Super League if that makes the most financial sense.. But it's gotta be connected to the rest of Europe via pro/rel or I'm outta here.
Kafka
Footballguy
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
I'm not sure less games would be bad. Whether a Super League club would be allowed to compete in domestic cups could be a decision for each football association. I don't really see why they'd have to be excluded.
But yes, I think the proposal that would generate the most money (and thus is the most logical end game for all this at some point) is a closed league. Somewhere between 20-28 teams (the Championship is 24 teams and they have cups as well, if you left them out of domestic cups, I think you could get in the 50 or so league game area, less if you kept cups).
You would lose a lot of stuff that we associate with the game. Pro/rel. Many regional rivalries. Some compelling minnows. But how much money do we expect the big teams to leave on the table to keep all that stuff? At the end of the day, Fiorentino Perez or whoever has to ask himself whether Real makes more money partnering with Inter Milan or partnering with Elche. While understanding how passionate the opposition is, I only see that decision coming down one way.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
"Churn" makes it all matter to everyone else. MLS is gonna pay the price one day for ignoring that reality, too.
I prefer the current set-up - as I think it appeases the most people.
Take France (Please!) -
- PSG makes a crap ton of money, and easily wins the league.
- 5 teams were within 7 points for 2-6 - so those teams have a competitive race for CL spots, and the financial rewards. They also get to host PSG once, and can be expected to win home games against the bottom half of the league. Home supporters will be pleased to attend most games as: 1. PSG, 2. Competitive, 3. Winnable
- 14 points separated 7-17 That means those teams are playing a lot of competitive games. Yes, they will get run out of the stadium by PSG - but they are not far off the pace for European spots, and they can feel good about not losing most home games. (17th place team lost only 6 home games)
- only 1 team was terrible.
Now, take PSG away, and I think you end up feeling like a Ligue 2 set-up, that then makes less money for all teams, and makes all supporters a little less enthusiastic about the league/sport. Its great for PSG, but not so much for everyone else in France.
Take France (Please!) -
- PSG makes a crap ton of money, and easily wins the league.
- 5 teams were within 7 points for 2-6 - so those teams have a competitive race for CL spots, and the financial rewards. They also get to host PSG once, and can be expected to win home games against the bottom half of the league. Home supporters will be pleased to attend most games as: 1. PSG, 2. Competitive, 3. Winnable
- 14 points separated 7-17 That means those teams are playing a lot of competitive games. Yes, they will get run out of the stadium by PSG - but they are not far off the pace for European spots, and they can feel good about not losing most home games. (17th place team lost only 6 home games)
- only 1 team was terrible.
Now, take PSG away, and I think you end up feeling like a Ligue 2 set-up, that then makes less money for all teams, and makes all supporters a little less enthusiastic about the league/sport. Its great for PSG, but not so much for everyone else in France.
shader
Footballguy
Money talks. As an example, how much money in TV ratings will the CL lose by not having Manchester United?
I think in the end, these big clubs will figure out a way to get themselves permanent seats. I'd imagine that the carrot they could use to the smaller teams is an expansion of the qualification tournament.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
I again agree with most of what you say, but its unthinkable for me that these clubs would ever not participate in their domestic leagues. I would think the PL would disband if it lost United, LFC, City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs(??). Certainly the television contracts would be voided as well as most other commercial agreements. The same would likely occur in the other domestic leagues. Everyone would be sued. I'm sure you realize all this, just sayin, I think a more incremental change is most likely, if any change comes - something where a certain limited number of big clubs are guaranteed a spot year in and out regardless of their domestic league finish, with the remainder of CL spots open to competition and change each year.
shader
Footballguy
I personally don't think there's any chance of those above teams leaving the EPL. It's a cash cow.
If this super league had 20 games a year, EPL teams could cut out the League Cup and send the U-21's to the FA cup and manage just fine, imo.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
Oh, I certainly think it would incremental, probably starting with some guaranteed CL places. And I'm sure there might be suits, as we have with the conference re-alignments in college sports here. I also have no idea how European competition law would treat a closed league. But the game changes. There was a time when the FA Cup meant a lot more than it does now (when a top team won't play an A squad in the competition until the quarters).
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
The FA would never allow this, and supporters would revolt. They turn a blind eye to clubs using some reserves in the League Cup, but would never accept clubs openly sending youth teams to FA Cup games.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
yeah that was coming, too much money is spent on that squad to look that poor. I doubt Sigi is the only issue as the gm has to take some hear for these signings but the coach is always the first to go.
I wonder if Klinsmann will hire Sigi as an assistant coach....
