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***Official*** Washington Redskins 2014 Thread (In-Season) (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter RGIII HTTR
- Start date
On the RGIII vs. Cousins debate, I am happy to just let it play out and see where it goes. I mentioned the worst case scenario is that the Redskins end up with no starting QB from the 2012 draft. The best case scenario is that they got two starting QBs.
The one sentiment that I whole heartedly agree with: a tie goes to RGIII. That is clear cut. I think for Cousins to get the edge, he needs to play really well and they need to win games. I don't think it will be that hard to go back to RGIII if Cousins puts up great stats, looks good, and the team is 3-6 and virtually out of the playoffs.
Cousins is also a young QB and is still learning. It is entirely possible that he gets better the more playing time he gets.
Finally, if RGIII gets healthy and does not get the starting job back, I think you lose RGIII permanently. They will probably need to trade him in the off season and his value will be like a damaged goods QB. I think will be difficult for RGIII to be a back up QB here.
The one sentiment that I whole heartedly agree with: a tie goes to RGIII. That is clear cut. I think for Cousins to get the edge, he needs to play really well and they need to win games. I don't think it will be that hard to go back to RGIII if Cousins puts up great stats, looks good, and the team is 3-6 and virtually out of the playoffs.
Cousins is also a young QB and is still learning. It is entirely possible that he gets better the more playing time he gets.
Finally, if RGIII gets healthy and does not get the starting job back, I think you lose RGIII permanently. They will probably need to trade him in the off season and his value will be like a damaged goods QB. I think will be difficult for RGIII to be a back up QB here.
It's not just one game I am talking about. We are talking about a guy with a 1-4 career record as a starter. A career QB rating in the 70s and thanks to yesterday finally got his TD-INT ratio over 50%. But since you want to talk about yesterday, the game was in his hands. Short field, down by 3. Drive the team to tie or win and you show you got the goods. He didn't move the Skins at all. Some great plays by the Eagles secondary didn't help, but you have to get at least a FG attempt on that drive if you're Cousins.
dgreen
Footballguy
Not really Redskins related, but thought I'd give Dan Daly's blog a shout out here. Long time Washington Times sports columnist and is great at historical stuff. Really enjoy reading his stuff. Good Twitter follow, too.
It's just the facts. People are crowning Cousins like he accomplished something. RG3 had an all time great rookie season, turned around the franchise and helped get them to the playoffs. Cousins has had a much smaller sample size to go with but he hasn't shown the ability to be the difference between a win and a loss. I know RG3 has. Yes he lost a lot last year, but do we honestly think if Cousins was given the same amount of starts on that dumpster fire that was last year's team, his record would have been better? Cousins has done well in spots. He's had statistical success against some of the poorer teams he's faced. He's also struggled mightily in other games as well (Giants game was painful last year). I think both QBs can succeed under Gruden, I would just like to see Cousins actually do it for more games before we start crowning him the savior and better than RG3 like a lot of the media and general public has.
Stay out of the spotlight and scrutiny? LOL
I'm no QB talent scout, but physical skills wise, probably nothing. I'm sure he slides better than RG3 and makes the smarter plays in regards to body safety. Looks like he makes his progression reads faster and stays in the pocket more so the OL can block for him easier since they can assume where he is whereas RG3 is more likely to move around thus the OL can be put in a tough spot not knowing where to block for him
I'm no QB talent scout, but physical skills wise, probably nothing. I'm sure he slides better than RG3 and makes the smarter plays in regards to body safety. Looks like he makes his progression reads faster and stays in the pocket more so the OL can block for him easier since they can assume where he is whereas RG3 is more likely to move around thus the OL can be put in a tough spot not knowing where to block for him
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avoiding injuries
Footballguy
Protect himself
dgreen
Footballguy
I think one reason I really want to stay away from this debate is because I'm growing extremely tired of the trend to label everything as either "great" or "horrible". There's no middle ground anymore. For some reason, we all must reach a conclusion of "great" or "horrible" on every play or every game. Which, of course, leads to opinions swinging from "great" to "horrible" and back to "great" in a matter of minutes. It's annoying and I have no desire to discuss Cousins and Griffin with anyone who wants to use those labels right now.
Agreed. I also try to avoid this debate when talking with my friends about it because it makes it seem like you have to choose a side. I believe in RG3 if healthy, but it seems like in doing so, it will come out like I am hating on Cousins. In the end I just want the Redskins to win.
avoiding injuries
Footballguy
I don't think it's fair to the coach or the team to gameplan and draw plays up with the assumption that RG3 is going to be the QB, and then have to adjust to Cousins style if/when he gets hurt.
My confidence in him having the ability to play an entire season couldn't be much lower. I don't know when the correct time is to come to the conclusion that I have reached. If he comes back and gets hurt again, I can't imagine anyone having confidence in him.
I just want the Redskins to win and I think Cousins is the better option long term.
My confidence in him having the ability to play an entire season couldn't be much lower. I don't know when the correct time is to come to the conclusion that I have reached. If he comes back and gets hurt again, I can't imagine anyone having confidence in him.
I just want the Redskins to win and I think Cousins is the better option long term.
I'm no QB guru but it just looks like Cousins get backs there, makes quicker reads, and delivers the ball much more quickly than RGIII. I'm not saying that RGIII CAN'T do that...but it's just my very untutored observation based upon the two players.
And by the way, I'm not saying this makes Cousins some great savior. I'm not saying he's Joe Montana. I really don't know what this kid has beyond the ability to do well in spot starts. But, that's my observation as of right now, he's really going through those progressions faster, standing in there and getting rid of it and to the open man.
I'm sure someone is going to write back and tell me that RGIII can do that. And you know what...you are right...he can, theoretically. I am just going off of what I have seen of the two recently.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
dgreen
Footballguy
Did you catch the report at the start of the 2nd half that Gruden told Cousins he needs to be more patient? I think Cousins' "quick reads" may sometimes be a negative in that he doesn't take the time to let plays develop. To his credit, he showed some patience and hit Jackson deep for the TD in the second half. I'd like to see Cousins hold the ball longer at times and take more shots down field. Yes, Griffin is probably at the other end of the spectrum in that he looks too often for the big play and misses the simple play.
dgreen
Footballguy
To me, the supposed advantages that Cousins brings are ones that Griffin is CAPABLE of doing. And, I think Griffin has actually shown to do those things at times. On the flip side, I think Griffin brings certain skills that Cousins will never be able to match. Griffin has the stronger arm, throws a better deep ball, is generally more accurate (when his mechanics aren't all effed up after ACL recovery), obviously has a mobility advantage, and I think is more likely to have "it" and can make an amazing play when needed.
Griffin is still just 24 years old and there are some things he needs to learn about being an NFL QB. No doubt about that. I really hope we get to see him stay healthy long enough to grow in those areas and it's going to totally suck if he reaches his full potential for some other team.
Griffin is still just 24 years old and there are some things he needs to learn about being an NFL QB. No doubt about that. I really hope we get to see him stay healthy long enough to grow in those areas and it's going to totally suck if he reaches his full potential for some other team.
MattFancy
Footballguy
Wasn't Chip won of the last straight leg kickers in the NFL? Don't see many any more it seems...
I actually think Forbath is pretty decent but he sure as Heck choked when we needed him to come through. He makes the long ones and missed the short ones. I'm sure it was "a bad hold."
RGIII HTTR
Footballguy
It was reported last week that RG3's trade value has not diminished...his unique skill set is what keeps him high and he can be very valuable in the right system. Not making it up, as I read it on twitter and the discussion came up.
RGIII HTTR
Footballguy
I think we need to put the onus on who it really belongs on...Special Teams and Defense. I agree with Snott, 34 points should be more than enough and had Special Teams done the job they were supposed to do, Redskins WIN! The defense also didn't step it up at certain times and they let the Eagles equal or surpass the momentum the offense had gained. Kirk could surely played a bit better, several behind receiver passes, but asking for perfection is unrealistic too. I also don't want to be misunderstood as our defense made many good to great plays, but they also had some significant breakdowns, which seems to be our achilles heel of sorts over the past few years. SPECIAL TEAMS and DEFENSE
dgreen
Footballguy
Yeah, I read an article saying some GMs out there said he could still get a 1st round pick in return. Not nearly what they paid, but it's not like his value has completely tanked. Many teams would gladly take a 24 year old with that skill set.
Sadly, at this point "what they paid" for either RGIII or Kirk Cousins is unimportant at this point. The costs are sunk, and the game is now to get maximum value for the two players currently on our roster.
The sad thing to me is that we cannot keep both of them. Both men want to start -- as well as they should -- so we're going to have to deal one of them. And a first round pick for RGIII would be better than just letting him walk away. Ditto a second or a third round pick for Cousins would be better than just letting him walk way.
Either way, we have to get it out of our minds what we paid in the past. Honestly, it should not even be a part of the decision process. Yes, if we deal one of these players for less than what we want then the fans of other teams will "make fun of us." But you have to tune that out and think, "what is the best thing I can do for this team."
The good news is that both men can be wrapped up through 4 years and we have a 5th year option for RGIII, so we can keep hold of our cards for a while longer..
dgreen
Footballguy
Yep, that was a total choke job on the 33 yard FG. That's one of those misses where you immediately say, "Well, we're definitely going to lose now." We've seen it too many times over the years.
I think Forbath has leg strength issues. Notice he's not doing kickoffs despite the fact that Way seems to struggle getting it to the endzone. Also, to end the first half of the Jags game, Gruden opted to throw a hail mary instead of attempting a 56 yard FG. And, IIRC, the hail mary didn't even make to the end zone. Probably a good decision, though, to avoid a blocked kick returned for a TD.
RGIII HTTR
Footballguy
Hmm...maybe we should just go for it on 4th down. Kick it out of bounds on kick offs, at least starting at their own 40 is not 6/7 spot on the scoreboard.
MattFancy
Footballguy
There was an article in the NY Times about it: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/05/upshot/4th-down-when-to-go-for-it-and-why.html?_r=0
dgreen
Footballguy
Eagles fans will love this:
@MarkMaske: NFL won't suspend Redskins' Chris Baker after ruling that his hit on Nick Foles was legal; fines coming for fight... http://t.co/Fd9SzHWyOJ
@MarkMaske: NFL won't suspend Redskins' Chris Baker after ruling that his hit on Nick Foles was legal; fines coming for fight... http://t.co/Fd9SzHWyOJ
PinkydaPimp
Footballguy
Cant wait for this. PM a reminder on saturday and i can probably find it for you online.
dgreen
Footballguy
@john_keim: Under review: Kirk Cousins #Redskins... comparing his 1st and 2nd half #s in his last 5 games. http://t.co/ktjlUHrpvy
Swing 51
Footballguy
DC Sports Bog has a nice write up on the program, tho some stuff at the following link could be considered a spoiler for the show.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-sports-bog/wp/2014/09/24/nfl-networks-sean-taylor-film-attempts-to-provide-a-full-picture-of-seans-life/
RGIII HTTR
Footballguy
Don't think he does get the same trade value. RG3 supposedly could easily fetch a 1st rounder, while I doubt Kirk will fetch that regardless of how well he plays the next few games. RG3 has the intangibles that can't be taught and that is what makes his value stay high.
dhockster
Footballguy
Copied this post by Ash in the Eagles Thread. He does great game analysis. Thought you guys might appreciate some of the Redskins comments:
Some things from the Washington game (don't know why it takes so long for the All-22 film to come out)
The series before the long Desean TD, WAS ran the exact mirror of that play action post-dig combo and Jenkins bit hard on the dig but Cousins went to a RB underneath. They came back to it first play of the next series, this time Allen bit and they scored. Good playcalling by Gruden.
It's all been said before obviously, but Foles was $$ in this game. Mentally he was really "on". Got rid of the ball on time, threw it away when he needed to and when he moved it was with purpose, rather than just drifting around waiting to get hit. To not get sacked in a game where the line fell apart with injuries is an impressive feat. It's impossible to over praise that throw for Matthews 2nd TD, but the catch doesn't get enough credit.
There was an interesting play with about 30 seconds to go before the half, looked like an overthrow to nobody at the goalline. WAS started in a Cover 2 look, but rolled the left S up late then blitzed him and a LB from the left side. The right side S went to the left hash as the other S walked up to the line, which left two Eagles in single coverage on the right side of the formation. Foles kept the single high S left with his eyes then went back right and threw to where Maclin would have been at the goalline if he'd run a post route instead of breaking it off. Because the S had been held on the left hash, the post was open so possibly an option route where Maclin didn't make the right read.
There were a few nice anticipation throws as well. Those outs to Matthews and Cooper's 3rd down conversion were all thrown just before the WR made the break.
Riley Cooper's not having much luck lately. He was open 4 or 5 times vs. the Colts on shallow cross routes, Foles didn't go to him once. He got open on a post route and would probably have scored but the ball was slightly tipped by one of the underneath defenders and deflected behind him.
Davis started out with all zone coverage and WAS did a good job scheming guys open and Cousins ran it well. From some time in the 2nd quarter on they mixed in a lot of "man under" with either one or two safeties playing over the top of man coverage underneath. That's when things tightened up a bit (but only a bit) and we did start to see some tighter coverage, pass breakups and getting off the field on 3rd down.
Pass rush is a big concern. Cousins dropped back 51 times and we barely got anyone near him. Graham had a nice play or two and Cox got in there once or twice but not much of what you'd call real pressure. We're on pace for 16 sacks. Jeebus.
They can make all the excuses they want about Boykin being small, he's still the best CB on the team. I would have matched him up with Jackson whenever they were in man, nickel or not. Not like Jackson's going to out-physical him.
See the post above, Bennie Logan is all over the field making tackles. He locks out his arms and keeps guys off his body and he's so agile he can just keep moving laterally on those outside zone runs. He's consistently in on plays near the sideline and very rarely ends up on the ground. That was a great draft pick. Cox is playing well against the run as well.
Trent Williams is a hell of a player. Easily handled Cox, Cole or whoever went against him all day, no help.
If Tobin can play next week that will get Gardner off the field, which will be a good thing. He's struggled badly, more plays than not in that game he was getting walked back or giving up outside pressure. Heremanns is playing well, Kelly is doing OK, getting better in the run game, but still plays pass pro like a T sometimes, letting a man outside him and riding him upfield. At G that's middle pressure, so that's bad. He still needs to be more aggressive with his hands, especially inside. You can see a real difference between him and Todd technique wise. Even on pass plays Heremanns takes a step forward and gets hands on his guy ASAP before settling back. Kelly at times is still retreating initially like a T. That said he doesn't look completely overmatched like Gardner has at times. Molk struggled in pass pro too. He'll have a NT over him this week as well, hopefully they've got a plan to give him some help. Maybe a few games experience will settle him in a bit, I hope so. He made some decent run blocks though. Still, get well Jason Kelce.
Tough road trip this week, but the 49ers do look shaky.
Edited by Ash, Today, 09:17 AM.
That’s it, I cannot work under these conditions. If anybody wants me, I’ll be downstairs at McDoogles. Call the weekend guy, I don’t care.
Some things from the Washington game (don't know why it takes so long for the All-22 film to come out)
The series before the long Desean TD, WAS ran the exact mirror of that play action post-dig combo and Jenkins bit hard on the dig but Cousins went to a RB underneath. They came back to it first play of the next series, this time Allen bit and they scored. Good playcalling by Gruden.
It's all been said before obviously, but Foles was $$ in this game. Mentally he was really "on". Got rid of the ball on time, threw it away when he needed to and when he moved it was with purpose, rather than just drifting around waiting to get hit. To not get sacked in a game where the line fell apart with injuries is an impressive feat. It's impossible to over praise that throw for Matthews 2nd TD, but the catch doesn't get enough credit.
There was an interesting play with about 30 seconds to go before the half, looked like an overthrow to nobody at the goalline. WAS started in a Cover 2 look, but rolled the left S up late then blitzed him and a LB from the left side. The right side S went to the left hash as the other S walked up to the line, which left two Eagles in single coverage on the right side of the formation. Foles kept the single high S left with his eyes then went back right and threw to where Maclin would have been at the goalline if he'd run a post route instead of breaking it off. Because the S had been held on the left hash, the post was open so possibly an option route where Maclin didn't make the right read.
There were a few nice anticipation throws as well. Those outs to Matthews and Cooper's 3rd down conversion were all thrown just before the WR made the break.
Riley Cooper's not having much luck lately. He was open 4 or 5 times vs. the Colts on shallow cross routes, Foles didn't go to him once. He got open on a post route and would probably have scored but the ball was slightly tipped by one of the underneath defenders and deflected behind him.
Davis started out with all zone coverage and WAS did a good job scheming guys open and Cousins ran it well. From some time in the 2nd quarter on they mixed in a lot of "man under" with either one or two safeties playing over the top of man coverage underneath. That's when things tightened up a bit (but only a bit) and we did start to see some tighter coverage, pass breakups and getting off the field on 3rd down.
Pass rush is a big concern. Cousins dropped back 51 times and we barely got anyone near him. Graham had a nice play or two and Cox got in there once or twice but not much of what you'd call real pressure. We're on pace for 16 sacks. Jeebus.
They can make all the excuses they want about Boykin being small, he's still the best CB on the team. I would have matched him up with Jackson whenever they were in man, nickel or not. Not like Jackson's going to out-physical him.
See the post above, Bennie Logan is all over the field making tackles. He locks out his arms and keeps guys off his body and he's so agile he can just keep moving laterally on those outside zone runs. He's consistently in on plays near the sideline and very rarely ends up on the ground. That was a great draft pick. Cox is playing well against the run as well.
Trent Williams is a hell of a player. Easily handled Cox, Cole or whoever went against him all day, no help.
If Tobin can play next week that will get Gardner off the field, which will be a good thing. He's struggled badly, more plays than not in that game he was getting walked back or giving up outside pressure. Heremanns is playing well, Kelly is doing OK, getting better in the run game, but still plays pass pro like a T sometimes, letting a man outside him and riding him upfield. At G that's middle pressure, so that's bad. He still needs to be more aggressive with his hands, especially inside. You can see a real difference between him and Todd technique wise. Even on pass plays Heremanns takes a step forward and gets hands on his guy ASAP before settling back. Kelly at times is still retreating initially like a T. That said he doesn't look completely overmatched like Gardner has at times. Molk struggled in pass pro too. He'll have a NT over him this week as well, hopefully they've got a plan to give him some help. Maybe a few games experience will settle him in a bit, I hope so. He made some decent run blocks though. Still, get well Jason Kelce.
Tough road trip this week, but the 49ers do look shaky.
Edited by Ash, Today, 09:17 AM.
That’s it, I cannot work under these conditions. If anybody wants me, I’ll be downstairs at McDoogles. Call the weekend guy, I don’t care.
Griffindor
Footballguy
South Park last night was pretty great. No spoilers, but I was rolling over the timely edit from the clip they showed during the Sunday game.
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