***OFFICIAL: Will Vince Young be a bust or not?*** (1 Viewer)

[Colin Dowling]

You guys are being critical of his arm strength....unreal. Three of the strongest arms in the NFL belong to JP Losman, Kyle Boller, and David Carr. Armstrength is painfully overrated, which is why guys like Tom Brady and Jake Delhomme slide slide slide on draft day.

 

[cstu]

You guys are being critical of his arm strength....unreal. Three of the strongest arms in the NFL belong to JP Losman, Kyle Boller, and David Carr. Armstrength is painfully overrated, which is why guys like Tom Brady and Jake Delhomme slide slide slide on draft day.

Except that Young has more in common with Losman, Boller and Carr than Brady or Delhomme.

 

[WhoDat]

You guys are being critical of his arm strength....unreal.

You followed much more closely than I did but for every solid throw I saw him make I also saw him float one. With coaching and the right system this is minimized or can be eliminated. I am on the fence with this one aspect of his game. But like I said, the kid wins games. Period.Hey, this is coming from a former Sooner and it is EXTREMELY difficult to lavish praise on a product of Austin but I like the kid. His maturity on the field is enough for me to overlook his weaknesses, which every kid in the draft will have. When he cracked that first grin last week, I told my wife the game was over.

 

[Colin Dowling]

You guys are being critical of his arm strength....unreal.  Three of the strongest arms in the NFL belong to JP Losman, Kyle Boller, and David Carr.  Armstrength is painfully overrated, which is why guys like Tom Brady and Jake Delhomme slide slide slide on draft day.

Except that Young has more in common with Losman, Boller and Carr than Brady or Delhomme.

LOL....I wish you were kidding, but I know you're not. It's amazing what some people will conclude despite what their own eyes see....Did you EVER see Losman, Boller, Carr, or countless others perform like Young in the Rose Bowl last week? The Rose Bowl last year? The Kansas game last year? The OkState game the last two years? The Tech game? The Ohio State game? On and on and on and on....

 

[Colin Dowling]

You guys are being critical of his arm strength....unreal.

You followed much more closely than I did but for every solid throw I saw him make I also saw him float one. With coaching and the right system this is minimized or can be eliminated. I am on the fence with this one aspect of his game. But like I said, the kid wins games. Period.Hey, this is coming from a former Sooner and it is EXTREMELY difficult to lavish praise on a product of Austin but I like the kid. His maturity on the field is enough for me to overlook his weaknesses, which every kid in the draft will have.

When he cracked that first grin last week, I told my wife the game was over.

Good post. It's inevitable that people will look at metrics to draw a conclusion when the point is WINNING GAMES>

 

[cstu]

You guys are being critical of his arm strength....unreal. Three of the strongest arms in the NFL belong to JP Losman, Kyle Boller, and David Carr. Armstrength is painfully overrated, which is why guys like Tom Brady and Jake Delhomme slide slide slide on draft day.

Except that Young has more in common with Losman, Boller and Carr than Brady or Delhomme.

LOL....I wish you were kidding, but I know you're not. It's amazing what some people will conclude despite what their own eyes see....Did you EVER see Losman, Boller, Carr, or countless others perform like Young in the Rose Bowl last week? The Rose Bowl last year? The Kansas game last year? The OkState game the last two years? The Tech game? The Ohio State game? On and on and on and on....

Ok, so I wasn't 100% serious there. While I'm on the fence about Young, I can see how he could come into the league and be very successful if he's put in a role where he isn't asked to make difficult throws and mainly uses his TE and WR's on short routes. I have a feeling that if he does succeed in the NFL he won't be that fun to watch since his game will mainly consist of handing the ball off, making short passes and occasionally making a nice run. The bottom line is that he could turn out to be a good winning QB despite not putting up fantastic numbers.

 

[bagger.]

Why is the most basic premise regarding Young's scrambling so hard to "get" for people? He's NOT Michael Vick. Nor is he McNabb or even Cunningham of old. The best example is someone like McNair or even Jeff Garcia.

Young's running ability is valuable not becuase he'll average 20 yards a carry, but because he is big enough, strong enough, fast enough, and evasive enough to turn 2 yard losses in to 6 yard gains.

It's like people want something out a video game, and when it doesn't appear to be the case, there's a problem. Are people already forgetting that he was a MAN AMONG BOYS against a team that had won 34 straight games? Are people forgetting that no fewer than 5 times in the last two seasons, Vince took over games when none of his teammates were doing anything?

The point is that he's a good enough passer, a better-than-good-enough scrambler, and a fiery competitor.

USC won most of those games with a much better defense than the one VY faced.USC won it's 12 games this year because of having the greatest collegiate offense of all time, with a better than average defense.

His running like a madman against a top 30 college defense is nice, but not something that makes me think he'll be an amazing QB.

He never even completed a pass past 20 yards.

 

[Bloom]

You guys are putting way too much on that USC game. the fact of the matter is VY didnt complete a long pass because USC took that away. Just like in the OSU game (an elite defense), the defense opposing Vince decided to take away one part of his game - in that case, the run. Just like in the rose bowl, VY took what the defense gave him in that game - the pass, including the long pass. In the USC game, VY adjusted and took what the D gave him, the short passes and checkdowns and the run. Thats one of the things included in his amazing intangibles. He's flexible. He is not a one-dimensional QB, he just looks that way when the D sells out to take away one part of his game.

 

[valhallan]

You guys are putting way too much on that USC game.

I think both sides are guilty of this

 

[Hook Em]

You guys are putting way too much on that USC game. the fact of the matter is VY didnt complete a long pass because USC took that away. Just like in the OSU game (an elite defense), the defense opposing Vince decided to take away one part of his game - in that case, the run. Just like in the rose bowl, VY took what the defense gave him in that game - the pass, including the long pass. In the USC game, VY adjusted and took what the D gave him, the short passes and checkdowns and the run. Thats one of the things included in his amazing intangibles. He's flexible. He is not a one-dimensional QB, he just looks that way when the D sells out to take away one part of his game.

EXACTLY! Whatever weakness the defense has shown he has exploited. And to those that say he can't hit the deep ball, you are flat out wrong. I watched every minute of every Texas game this year and he consistently placed the ball in the hands of his receivers in stride when they were open streaking down the field (see closing seconds of first half in OU game for prime example). The key is when they were open. As pointed out by Bloom, it all depended on what opportunities were present. VY has made college defenders look like high school B teamers all year (will he do that in the NFL, no, but he'll still play at a higher level than most of the defenders he'll face), and he still has a great deal of room for improvement. He WILL get much better than he is right now. VY is going to be a Hall of Famer before it's all said and done. How's that for taking a stand?

 

[Colin Dowling]

Why is the most basic premise regarding Young's scrambling so hard to "get" for people? He's NOT Michael Vick. Nor is he McNabb or even Cunningham of old. The best example is someone like McNair or even Jeff Garcia.

Young's running ability is valuable not becuase he'll average 20 yards a carry, but because he is big enough, strong enough, fast enough, and evasive enough to turn 2 yard losses in to 6 yard gains.

It's like people want something out a video game, and when it doesn't appear to be the case, there's a problem. Are people already forgetting that he was a MAN AMONG BOYS against a team that had won 34 straight games? Are people forgetting that no fewer than 5 times in the last two seasons, Vince took over games when none of his teammates were doing anything?

The point is that he's a good enough passer, a better-than-good-enough scrambler, and a fiery competitor.

USC won most of those games with a much better defense than the one VY faced.USC won it's 12 games this year because of having the greatest collegiate offense of all time that still scored fewer points than the Longhorns offense, with a better than average defense.

His running like a madman against a top 30 college defense is nice, but not something that makes me think he'll be an amazing QB.

He never even completed a pass past 20 yards.

Fixed.

 

[bagger.]

Why is the most basic premise regarding Young's scrambling so hard to "get" for people?  He's NOT Michael Vick.  Nor is he McNabb or even Cunningham of old.  The best example is someone like McNair or even Jeff Garcia.

Young's running ability is valuable not becuase he'll average 20 yards a carry, but because he is big enough, strong enough, fast enough, and evasive enough to turn 2 yard losses in to 6 yard gains.

It's like people want something out a video game, and when it doesn't appear to be the case, there's a problem.  Are people already forgetting that he was a MAN AMONG BOYS against a team that had won 34 straight games?  Are people forgetting that no fewer than 5 times in the last two seasons, Vince took over games when none of his teammates were doing anything? 

The point is that he's a good enough passer, a better-than-good-enough scrambler, and a fiery competitor.

USC won most of those games with a much better defense than the one VY faced.USC won it's 12 games this year because of having the greatest collegiate offense of all time that still scored fewer points than the Longhorns offense, with a better than average defense.

His running like a madman against a top 30 college defense is nice, but not something that makes me think he'll be an amazing QB.

He never even completed a pass past 20 yards.

Fixed.

lolwhat is more impressive?

USC scoring 38 against Texas' #1 defense or Texas scoring 41 against USC's ~25th-30th ranked defense?

solid collegiate insight as always colin.

 

[Colin Dowling]

Why is the most basic premise regarding Young's scrambling so hard to "get" for people? He's NOT Michael Vick. Nor is he McNabb or even Cunningham of old. The best example is someone like McNair or even Jeff Garcia.

Young's running ability is valuable not becuase he'll average 20 yards a carry, but because he is big enough, strong enough, fast enough, and evasive enough to turn 2 yard losses in to 6 yard gains.

It's like people want something out a video game, and when it doesn't appear to be the case, there's a problem. Are people already forgetting that he was a MAN AMONG BOYS against a team that had won 34 straight games? Are people forgetting that no fewer than 5 times in the last two seasons, Vince took over games when none of his teammates were doing anything?

The point is that he's a good enough passer, a better-than-good-enough scrambler, and a fiery competitor.

USC won most of those games with a much better defense than the one VY faced.USC won it's 12 games this year because of having the greatest collegiate offense of all time that still scored fewer points than the Longhorns offense, with a better than average defense.

His running like a madman against a top 30 college defense is nice, but not something that makes me think he'll be an amazing QB.

He never even completed a pass past 20 yards.

Fixed.

lolwhat is more impressive?

USC scoring 38 against Texas' #1 defense or Texas scoring 41 against USC's ~25th-30th ranked defense?

solid collegiate insight as always colin.

I'd say the Texas offense scoring more points over the course of a season than the Trojans trumps both points.Colin

 

[bagger.]

Why is the most basic premise regarding Young's scrambling so hard to "get" for people?  He's NOT Michael Vick.  Nor is he McNabb or even Cunningham of old.  The best example is someone like McNair or even Jeff Garcia.

Young's running ability is valuable not becuase he'll average 20 yards a carry, but because he is big enough, strong enough, fast enough, and evasive enough to turn 2 yard losses in to 6 yard gains.

It's like people want something out a video game, and when it doesn't appear to be the case, there's a problem.  Are people already forgetting that he was a MAN AMONG BOYS against a team that had won 34 straight games?  Are people forgetting that no fewer than 5 times in the last two seasons, Vince took over games when none of his teammates were doing anything? 

The point is that he's a good enough passer, a better-than-good-enough scrambler, and a fiery competitor.

USC won most of those games with a much better defense than the one VY faced.USC won it's 12 games this year because of having the greatest collegiate offense of all time that still scored fewer points than the Longhorns offense, with a better than average defense.

His running like a madman against a top 30 college defense is nice, but not something that makes me think he'll be an amazing QB.

He never even completed a pass past 20 yards.

Fixed.

lolwhat is more impressive?

USC scoring 38 against Texas' #1 defense or Texas scoring 41 against USC's ~25th-30th ranked defense?

solid collegiate insight as always colin.

I'd say the Texas offense scoring more points over the course of a season than the Trojans trumps both points.Colin

there are so many things wrong with this statement i am not sure where to begin.

 

[Colin Dowling]

Why is the most basic premise regarding Young's scrambling so hard to "get" for people? He's NOT Michael Vick. Nor is he McNabb or even Cunningham of old. The best example is someone like McNair or even Jeff Garcia.

Young's running ability is valuable not becuase he'll average 20 yards a carry, but because he is big enough, strong enough, fast enough, and evasive enough to turn 2 yard losses in to 6 yard gains.

It's like people want something out a video game, and when it doesn't appear to be the case, there's a problem. Are people already forgetting that he was a MAN AMONG BOYS against a team that had won 34 straight games? Are people forgetting that no fewer than 5 times in the last two seasons, Vince took over games when none of his teammates were doing anything?

The point is that he's a good enough passer, a better-than-good-enough scrambler, and a fiery competitor.

USC won most of those games with a much better defense than the one VY faced.USC won it's 12 games this year because of having the greatest collegiate offense of all time that still scored fewer points than the Longhorns offense, with a better than average defense.

His running like a madman against a top 30 college defense is nice, but not something that makes me think he'll be an amazing QB.

He never even completed a pass past 20 yards.

Fixed.

lolwhat is more impressive?

USC scoring 38 against Texas' #1 defense or Texas scoring 41 against USC's ~25th-30th ranked defense?

solid collegiate insight as always colin.

I'd say the Texas offense scoring more points over the course of a season than the Trojans trumps both points.Colin

there are so many things wrong with this statement i am not sure where to begin.

Do your worst, I'll be here all day.At the end of the day though, you'll find the Texas O outscored USC.

 

[Irish]

Vince Young is my fullproof bonafide NFL bust. He's a running quarterback that doesn't have great speed (I'd guess somewhere between 4.5-4.6) and lacks agility. In the NFL the defensive players are so fast, so I don't see his 'running ability' helping him too much; it will only get him injured. Every game I've watched of his didn't impress me with his throwing the ball. He seems to float too many balls, the passes lack velocity. Now, if he is drafted by the Titans and gets a year or two to work on his mechanics and bulks up, maybe he has a chance. I just try to picture him being sucessful in the NFL and I just don't see it. I'm usually pretty good at evaluating quarterbacks, I hate to brag but I was on the Roethlisberger wagon in 2004 and on the Alex Smith sucks ### wagon, too. Those are two good wagons to be on. Also, am I the only one that sees similarities between Peyton Manning and Matt Leinhart?

You couldn't be more off base in your evaluations of Young and Leinhart. Young is a freak athlete who will take some time adjusting to the pro game, but he is a winner and a hard worker. Leinhart will be a bust. He has a noodle arm and and was surrounding by far superior talent than his opponents each week.

 

[kingmalaki]

Why is the most basic premise regarding Young's scrambling so hard to "get" for people?  He's NOT Michael Vick.  Nor is he McNabb or even Cunningham of old.  The best example is someone like McNair or even Jeff Garcia.

Young's running ability is valuable not becuase he'll average 20 yards a carry, but because he is big enough, strong enough, fast enough, and evasive enough to turn 2 yard losses in to 6 yard gains.

It's like people want something out a video game, and when it doesn't appear to be the case, there's a problem.  Are people already forgetting that he was a MAN AMONG BOYS against a team that had won 34 straight games?  Are people forgetting that no fewer than 5 times in the last two seasons, Vince took over games when none of his teammates were doing anything? 

The point is that he's a good enough passer, a better-than-good-enough scrambler, and a fiery competitor.

USC won most of those games with a much better defense than the one VY faced.USC won it's 12 games this year because of having the greatest collegiate offense of all time that still scored fewer points than the Longhorns offense, with a better than average defense.

His running like a madman against a top 30 college defense is nice, but not something that makes me think he'll be an amazing QB.

He never even completed a pass past 20 yards.

Fixed.

lolwhat is more impressive?

USC scoring 38 against Texas' #1 defense or Texas scoring 41 against USC's ~25th-30th ranked defense?

solid collegiate insight as always colin.

I'd say the Texas offense scoring more points over the course of a season than the Trojans trumps both points.Colin

there are so many things wrong with this statement i am not sure where to begin.

If the Texas offense averaged more points than the USC offense over the course of a season, then exactly what can you say? That USC had to face the stringent Pac-10 D? Additionally, isn't that more impressive for Vince since he doesn't have an all-world receiver or RB on his team?

 

[Colin Dowling]

Why is the most basic premise regarding Young's scrambling so hard to "get" for people? He's NOT Michael Vick. Nor is he McNabb or even Cunningham of old. The best example is someone like McNair or even Jeff Garcia.

Young's running ability is valuable not becuase he'll average 20 yards a carry, but because he is big enough, strong enough, fast enough, and evasive enough to turn 2 yard losses in to 6 yard gains.

It's like people want something out a video game, and when it doesn't appear to be the case, there's a problem. Are people already forgetting that he was a MAN AMONG BOYS against a team that had won 34 straight games? Are people forgetting that no fewer than 5 times in the last two seasons, Vince took over games when none of his teammates were doing anything?

The point is that he's a good enough passer, a better-than-good-enough scrambler, and a fiery competitor.

USC won most of those games with a much better defense than the one VY faced.USC won it's 12 games this year because of having the greatest collegiate offense of all time that still scored fewer points than the Longhorns offense, with a better than average defense.

His running like a madman against a top 30 college defense is nice, but not something that makes me think he'll be an amazing QB.

He never even completed a pass past 20 yards.

Fixed.

lolwhat is more impressive?

USC scoring 38 against Texas' #1 defense or Texas scoring 41 against USC's ~25th-30th ranked defense?

solid collegiate insight as always colin.

I'd say the Texas offense scoring more points over the course of a season than the Trojans trumps both points.Colin

there are so many things wrong with this statement i am not sure where to begin.

If the Texas offense averaged more points than the USC offense over the course of a season, then exactly what can you say? That USC had to face the stringent Pac-10 D? Additionally, isn't that more impressive for Vince since he doesn't have an all-world receiver or RB on his team?

We all know where i come down in this, but just because Vince's cast aren't household names doesn't mean they aren't all world. For starters, all the best skill players on the team outside of David Thomas and Selvin Young are 1st or 2nd year players. Ramonce Taylor, Jamal Charles, and Henry Melton would all start for most every team in the NCAA. As I am fond of pointing out, Taylor scored more frequently than Bush on a per touch basis) and not as a goalline back. He is silly explosive. Charles and Melton are Freshmen who posed huge problems for defenses. And the receivers, particularly Sweed, were much better and much more consistent than ther higher-profile predecessors (Roy Williams, Sloan Thomas, etc.)

 

[B Maverick]

I agree with this guy from Huddle Report

Strengths

Vince is a hell of an athlete. He is big, strong, has good speed and in the open field, is very hard to bring down. He shows good leadership skills and makes the players around him better. Vince has improved his ability to throw the ball every year I've seen him play. This shows me that he wants to be the best at his position and that he works hard to improve.

Needs to Improve

Let’s be honest...Vince is nowhere near being an NFL QB. His throwing motion is suspect (to say the least.) He does not stay in the pocket. He does not read defenses at all. He is only effectve in the shotgun formation and when he's running the ball.

Bottom Line

If Vince wants to be a QB in the NFL, it will take a whole lot of hard work and at least four years. If he thinks that all he has to do when he's in trouble in the NFL is take off and run, he needs to talk to Michael Vick and JP Losman. Both players have already broken a leg and both lost a year in their development. Vick had a lot of injuries this year and is just now starting to learn that staying in the pocket is the only way to stay on the field and impact. Vince doesn’t have the arm strength and velocity on his ball that those two players have. Both Vick and Losman struggle with their mechanics to this day and in doing so, miss a lot of open receivers. I’m not sure Vince will make it as a QB in the NFL. If he had stayed in for his senior year and I saw marked improvement in his throwing motion and velocity on his ball, then I could have given you a better profile. Now that he's decided to leave Texas after this year because of his projection as a top ten pick, I have to say that the road for him to travel will be way too long and if you are the coach of the team that drafts him, you'll probably be fired before he becomes your QB. I would rate Vince as a good, long-range developmental QB that I would pick maybe in the third or fourth round; but to be honest, there is no way I pick this kid to be my future franchise QB. The recent Rose Bowl did nothing to change my mind about Vince -- in fact, if anything, it made me more convinced of my opinion of him as a potential QB in the NFL. Now if you want to talk about him playing another position, I would be happy to see what he could do as a WR. I bet he would be outstanding.

 

[bagger.]

At the end of the day though, you'll find the Texas O outscored USC.

i never argued this point.however, to assert that the texas offense is better than usc's because it marginally outscored the usc offense, when neither were trying to go for a total points title at the end of the year is absolutely ridiculous.

especially when you consider that both schools rested starters in the 4th quarter on multiple occasions. you add in each school played a different schedule there is absolutely no way to assert that one offense is better than another based on total points.

texas ppg: 50.15

USC ppg: 49.08

this is what you are basing your argument on? really?

you then have to consider how many points did texas score on special teams and defense? if you are comparing offenses you have to back these out.

you then look at total offense where USC is #1, Texas is #3. fairly close, but then when you look deeper and see that USC is top 10 in every offensive category (top 5 in most) where texas is #40 in passing offense, also consider that USC turns the ball over much less than Texas (#2 in turnover margin compared to Texas' #27), it is absolutely clear that USC has a better total offense than Texas.

Texas played a great game in the Rose Bowl and made a couple key plays on defense when they needed to. They're a great national champ.

Thanks for your "analysis" though. Spitting out total PPG when that includes factors other than offense was awesome.

 

[bagger.]

Why is the most basic premise regarding Young's scrambling so hard to "get" for people?  He's NOT Michael Vick.  Nor is he McNabb or even Cunningham of old.  The best example is someone like McNair or even Jeff Garcia.

Young's running ability is valuable not becuase he'll average 20 yards a carry, but because he is big enough, strong enough, fast enough, and evasive enough to turn 2 yard losses in to 6 yard gains.

It's like people want something out a video game, and when it doesn't appear to be the case, there's a problem.  Are people already forgetting that he was a MAN AMONG BOYS against a team that had won 34 straight games?  Are people forgetting that no fewer than 5 times in the last two seasons, Vince took over games when none of his teammates were doing anything? 

The point is that he's a good enough passer, a better-than-good-enough scrambler, and a fiery competitor.

USC won most of those games with a much better defense than the one VY faced.USC won it's 12 games this year because of having the greatest collegiate offense of all time that still scored fewer points than the Longhorns offense, with a better than average defense.

His running like a madman against a top 30 college defense is nice, but not something that makes me think he'll be an amazing QB.

He never even completed a pass past 20 yards.

Fixed.

lolwhat is more impressive?

USC scoring 38 against Texas' #1 defense or Texas scoring 41 against USC's ~25th-30th ranked defense?

solid collegiate insight as always colin.

I'd say the Texas offense scoring more points over the course of a season than the Trojans trumps both points.Colin

there are so many things wrong with this statement i am not sure where to begin.

If the Texas offense averaged more points than the USC offense over the course of a season, then exactly what can you say? That USC had to face the stringent Pac-10 D? Additionally, isn't that more impressive for Vince since he doesn't have an all-world receiver or RB on his team?

i forgot how potent Baylor and North Texas' defense were.

also please see my note above regarding total ppg factoring in defensive and special teams scores. the differential between total ppg between texas and usc is so close that i bet if you strip out those two categories usc is ahead.

regardless, VY is a great athlete, but has shown me nothing in regards to being a good NFL QB. Having the 40th ranked passing offense in college football does not impress me, and running for VY will only get tougher in the NFL.

 

[kingmalaki]

Why is the most basic premise regarding Young's scrambling so hard to "get" for people?  He's NOT Michael Vick.  Nor is he McNabb or even Cunningham of old.  The best example is someone like McNair or even Jeff Garcia.

Young's running ability is valuable not becuase he'll average 20 yards a carry, but because he is big enough, strong enough, fast enough, and evasive enough to turn 2 yard losses in to 6 yard gains.

It's like people want something out a video game, and when it doesn't appear to be the case, there's a problem.  Are people already forgetting that he was a MAN AMONG BOYS against a team that had won 34 straight games?  Are people forgetting that no fewer than 5 times in the last two seasons, Vince took over games when none of his teammates were doing anything? 

The point is that he's a good enough passer, a better-than-good-enough scrambler, and a fiery competitor.

USC won most of those games with a much better defense than the one VY faced.USC won it's 12 games this year because of having the greatest collegiate offense of all time that still scored fewer points than the Longhorns offense, with a better than average defense.

His running like a madman against a top 30 college defense is nice, but not something that makes me think he'll be an amazing QB.

He never even completed a pass past 20 yards.

Fixed.

lolwhat is more impressive?

USC scoring 38 against Texas' #1 defense or Texas scoring 41 against USC's ~25th-30th ranked defense?

solid collegiate insight as always colin.

I'd say the Texas offense scoring more points over the course of a season than the Trojans trumps both points.Colin

there are so many things wrong with this statement i am not sure where to begin.

If the Texas offense averaged more points than the USC offense over the course of a season, then exactly what can you say? That USC had to face the stringent Pac-10 D? Additionally, isn't that more impressive for Vince since he doesn't have an all-world receiver or RB on his team?

i forgot how potent Baylor and North Texas' defense were.

also please see my note above regarding total ppg factoring in defensive and special teams scores. the differential between total ppg between texas and usc is so close that i bet if you strip out those two categories usc is ahead.

regardless, VY is a great athlete, but has shown me nothing in regards to being a good NFL QB. Having the 40th ranked passing offense in college football does not impress me, and running for VY will only get tougher in the NFL.

Just as potent as some of the D's in the Pac-10. Are you going to argue that defense on average is better in the Pac-10 than the Big 12 (and the out of conference schools that each team faced)?I read your previous note, and yes it does make sense to do a complete analysis to say which offense is better. But in your removal of special teams and defensive scores, you also have to take into account how often each teams main starters were on the field (UT was in more blowouts than USC), how often the defense put the offense in scoring position, etc. In other words, unless you are gonna go through each game tape and truly track it like a coach, the best measure you have is points scored by game. There was nothing wrong with the other poster using that statistic (isn't that why they rank em), unless you want to do the full analysis for us? In most cases, one won't say an offense that scored LESS is better.

 

[Colin Dowling]

At the end of the day though, you'll find the Texas O outscored USC.

i never argued this point.however, to assert that the texas offense is better than usc's because it marginally outscored the usc offense, when neither were trying to go for a total points title at the end of the year is absolutely ridiculous.

especially when you consider that both schools rested starters in the 4th quarter on multiple occasions. you add in each school played a different schedule there is absolutely no way to assert that one offense is better than another based on total points.

texas ppg: 50.15

USC ppg: 49.08

this is what you are basing your argument on? really?

you then have to consider how many points did texas score on special teams and defense? if you are comparing offenses you have to back these out.

you then look at total offense where USC is #1, Texas is #3. fairly close, but then when you look deeper and see that USC is top 10 in every offensive category (top 5 in most) where texas is #40 in passing offense, also consider that USC turns the ball over much less than Texas (#2 in turnover margin compared to Texas' #27), it is absolutely clear that USC has a better total offense than Texas.

Texas played a great game in the Rose Bowl and made a couple key plays on defense when they needed to. They're a great national champ.

Thanks for your "analysis" though. Spitting out total PPG when that includes factors other than offense was awesome.

1. They still scored more points.2. If you want to hack on me for not including ST/D in total points, then I'll hack you similarly for not including field position in total offense. Points are more important than yards.

3. USC had 82 offensive TDs on 987 snaps, or 1 TD every 12.03 snaps. UT had 81 offensive TDs on 933 snaps or 1 TD every 11.5 snaps .

3. The fact that Texas turned the ball over more often has little to do with the offense - Vince had 10 INTs, Leinart had 8. Pretty similar. As for fumbles, I wasn't aware that they were an offensive category.

4. The UT QBs averaged 9.17 ypa with a 64.9% completion percentage. The USC QBs averaged 8.67 ypa with a 65.1% completion percentage.

5. The Horns had more rushing TDs (55 to 50). The Trojans win the ypc battle 6.9 to 6.5.

I think if you look at it objectively, it's pretty easy to see how the burden of proof lies on a Trojan backer like yourself to defend the "USC has the best offense" bit. The Horns scored more frequently, had a more efficient passing game, and found paydirt more often on the ground. THe things in USC's favor - completion %, total offensive TDs, and ypc are USC "wins" by the tiniest of margins. Factor in that the Longhorns 1st stringers were on the bench in the fourth quarter in every game but 2 (OhSU and USC) and the Trojan first teamers had to play the full game multiple times (Fresno, ND, UTexas) and it' seems even harder to argue they were the better offense.

:volley:

:set:

:spike:

Colin

 

[Colin Dowling]

Also, by my count, Texas had 8 wins against teams that ranked in the top-50 in Total Defense including 5 in the top 26.USC had 5, and 3 of them (Michigan, Oregon, and Cal) were ranked 42nd or worse. THeir only others were Texas (6th, a loss) and Fresno (32nd, a win).

 

[Pat Patriot]

USC didnt play Michigan.

 

[Colin Dowling]

USC didnt play Michigan.

Got them confused w/ ND. THanks for pointing that out. Makes the case even more interesting.

 

[Da Guru]

My feeling is that Young will run better than Vick and pass worse!

 

[LHUCKS]

Bust

 

[Assani Fisher]

BUMP FROM JANUARY 2006

Not

 

[-OZ-]

In Tennessee with a very good coach, good TEs, and a good fan base, he'll thrive.

 

[NOSRAC247]

I dont see why we're having a convo on the rookie of the year being a bust, but I can see the point. There have been many rookies of the year that had a great first season, then went downhill after. I dont see Vince Young being a bust. He's too big of a guy. He might not put up Peyton Manning numbers ever, but look at how good the Titan, who everyone thought was going to win 2 or 3 games maximum, performed this year. He's good to go, for a minute.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Dude won his last 20 games and has as much athleticism and natural talent as any QB out there.

VY = STUD + Winner

Athleticism. Yes.Too bad they don't run the spread option in the NFL.

You saying that VY winning his past 20 games inferring that somehow correlates to NFL success is a little curious.

He'll be a BUST.

You don't get faster in the NFL. Everyone else does. You have to throw deep and I have not seen his ability to do that at all with the exception of throwing jump balls to his WRs against inferior talent like Baylor CBs.

VY did not complete one pass over 20 yards against USC and looked atrocious throwing the ball anytime they blitzed. He'll be seeing a lot more of that with bigger, faster players in the NFL.

He'll be a great WR in 3 years.

It's silly that so many people criticize a player for not winning the way they want him too. Sure, he didn't pass for tons of yards (but he led the nation in YPA and YPC); the smart move for him was to run often since defenses couldn't stop him. Sure, he didn't complete any long passes against USC (but he dominated them and his team won the NC), but the smart move was to take what the defense gave him.With all that raw talent, I see no reason why he won't be able to adjust and dominate at the pro level.

We'll see obviously.Of course the easy comeback to saying the reason he didn't throw any deep passes is because that is what was there. But USC's pass defense was vulnerable to the deep ball all year long. When he was down 12 why didn't he attack deep?

Is it because USC runs a Tampa 2 (very similar to what many pro teams are running) and he couldn't find any deep open WRs?

Just to be clear, is your argument for Vince Young really predicated on the fact that Texas' defense stopped USC on a 4th and 2 (thus winning the NC)?

VY is a tremendous athlete. However, he is going to have to line up under center in the NFL and play a system completely different than the spread option.

How can this not concern people?

Tons of guys that were supposed to be NFL ready turned out to be horrible. I know lots of people thought McNabb was a bust because all he could do was run (my brother went to school with him, and the feeling was by many that he would be a bust in the pros). Sure, if the UT D doesn't come up big, VY doesn't get a chance to make history. But there have been QBs that were studs in college in pro offenses, and then stunk in the NFL. Then there were QBs in gimmicky, division II offenses that dominated in the pros. Other QBs have been horrible for one team, then great for another. Some QBs were studs for one team, and then totally fizzled once they left.

I'm not a college football expert, and everyone knows this is anything but an exact science. But Young has all the physical tools you want: strong-arm, big body, elusiveness, mobility and accuracy. His throwing motion is weird for sure, but that can be corrected. But when a guy has all the skills + all the intangibles (plays at his best in big games, extremely likeable, good guy) I don't see much reason to doubt him.

 

[Chase Stuart]

I dont see why we're having a convo on the rookie of the year being a bust, but I can see the point. There have been many rookies of the year that had a great first season, then went downhill after. I dont see Vince Young being a bust. He's too big of a guy. He might not put up Peyton Manning numbers ever, but look at how good the Titan, who everyone thought was going to win 2 or 3 games maximum, performed this year. He's good to go, for a minute.

This is a bump from last year.