Full time officials. Like every other major sport.
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Officiating has ruined the NFL. (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter WiDDoW_MaKeR
- Start date
Deamon
Footballguy
Ya, I'll admit I'm a bit naive on this. Didn't think they had other jobs. What does full-time entail? Like employed through offseason and meeting weekly, going through drills, etc? Like what do they do outside of the games.
Dizzy
Footballguy
I'll go the other way on this... instant replay and state-of-the-art camera technology has ruined (exposed?) officiating. In truth the officiating may be better now than ever, but we didn't have the camera work to expose it back in the day.
See that CMC TD catch yesterday? In real time, was there any doubt in anyone's mind that it wasn't a TD? Oooooh, then super slo-mo instant replay revealed that the ball did move and... did he re-establish possession and get 2 more feet in? Turned out, YES... and the officials had it right as well. Just a shame we had to wait 10 minutes to get excited about it.
See that CMC TD catch yesterday? In real time, was there any doubt in anyone's mind that it wasn't a TD? Oooooh, then super slo-mo instant replay revealed that the ball did move and... did he re-establish possession and get 2 more feet in? Turned out, YES... and the officials had it right as well. Just a shame we had to wait 10 minutes to get excited about it.
Deamon
Footballguy
This is a fantastic point I never thought about. How in the world could anyone see his tiny toe tap without those crazy camera angles.... People are expecting the eyeballs of refs to be advancing the same way our cameras are and that's not realistic of course.
eighsse2
Footballguy
But for some people, any slackening of QB protection will be a bad "look" and they'll scream "but remember Tuuuuuaaaaa!" It should obviously be changed though. Especially this "landing on the QB" crap.
My big pet peeve is the tackling any player "who appears to be going out of bounds" drawing penalties. It's not too common, but so frustrating, because how do you know what the ballcarrier's intentions are until he actually sets foot out of bounds? And even once he contacts the ground out of bounds, you've gotta give a defender at least one step of grace because of momentum, just like hitting a QB who has just released a pass. Especially when you've got a ridiculous guy like Mahomes. But even a regular receiver or running back past the line of scrimmage who can't do a forward pass, how do you know he's not going to do some wacky lateral from mid-air while in the out-of-bounds air space? That's a bit of a weak argument since that essentially never happens and would rarely be wise. But I don't like to just assume no one is going to do that and penalize someone for tackling the guy.
My big pet peeve is the tackling any player "who appears to be going out of bounds" drawing penalties. It's not too common, but so frustrating, because how do you know what the ballcarrier's intentions are until he actually sets foot out of bounds? And even once he contacts the ground out of bounds, you've gotta give a defender at least one step of grace because of momentum, just like hitting a QB who has just released a pass. Especially when you've got a ridiculous guy like Mahomes. But even a regular receiver or running back past the line of scrimmage who can't do a forward pass, how do you know he's not going to do some wacky lateral from mid-air while in the out-of-bounds air space? That's a bit of a weak argument since that essentially never happens and would rarely be wise. But I don't like to just assume no one is going to do that and penalize someone for tackling the guy.
My neighbor is an MLB umpire,has been for over 20 years now. I've had interesting conversations with him about how MLB umps can't believe The NFL hasn't gone to full time officials yet. During his "offseason" he said they are constantly meeting,refreshing,training and conducting seminars on their job. Full time NFL officials could do that. He said there was an idea floated several years ago to make NFL officials full time,a training schedule was laid out,the proposal included officials officiating college games that were played on weekdays to stay sharp and an everyday training,refresher and meeting schedule. My neighbor said it could be done very easily and many of the current NFL refs were in favor of it. The league never carried it any further,the guess is part of the reason is economic,you'd have to pay full time officials more and give more benefits,which of course would put The NFL in severe economic distress. NOT!
Deamon
Footballguy
Ya, that all sounds pretty good to me. I'm sure the refs would be for it if they're making way more money to be involved all year, and it would be surprising if this didn't lead to some improvement at the very least.
Todem
Footballguy
2021 was probably the most insane, exciting post season I have ever seen. And I am a hard nosed bonafide 1970’s/80’s/90’s/00’s NFL junkie. I do not like the QB rules....I think they border on insanity now.
I can’t stand the entire review process and how officials cannot call a game in real time anymore.....I mean it’s as if the game is now truly played in slow mo HDR......which is not human and loses the human touch. You can’t even celebrate TD’s, turnovers etc without waiting for the ****ing confirmation.....it ruins the moment big time. And seeing a game live is garbage. I can only watch on TV....so I can flip to Red Zone on commercials or my multi screen mix channel. The commercial breaks border on repulsive these days.
Despite that.....I love my football on Saturdays and Sundays. Simple as that. I can scream at the sky about the BS I see every Sunday and BTW they gotta make some rules adjustments on the sacks....because it’s outta hand how bad the calls are getting. But overall.....the game is as popular as ever and yeah....gambling and FF is a huge part of the reason. It’s a massive machine and it ain’t stopping.
I can’t stand the entire review process and how officials cannot call a game in real time anymore.....I mean it’s as if the game is now truly played in slow mo HDR......which is not human and loses the human touch. You can’t even celebrate TD’s, turnovers etc without waiting for the ****ing confirmation.....it ruins the moment big time. And seeing a game live is garbage. I can only watch on TV....so I can flip to Red Zone on commercials or my multi screen mix channel. The commercial breaks border on repulsive these days.
Despite that.....I love my football on Saturdays and Sundays. Simple as that. I can scream at the sky about the BS I see every Sunday and BTW they gotta make some rules adjustments on the sacks....because it’s outta hand how bad the calls are getting. But overall.....the game is as popular as ever and yeah....gambling and FF is a huge part of the reason. It’s a massive machine and it ain’t stopping.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Between 2012 and 2017 they did convert 24 of the 121 officials to full time. That was shelved in the 2019 CBA negotiations. As of today all 122 are part-time contractors, though that seems like a misnomer.
Referees have what is referred to as a dark period between the end of the season and the middle of May. That time and during the summer is when they typically focus on their other job. During the season, they are essentially considered full-time employees for the league.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Average salary is $205K
Guy who just retired after 27 years was making $230K. 3 senior guys make around $250K - guesstimated, the NFL is opaque about it.
Current CBA runs through 2026
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
the weakest roughing the passer call of all time
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Brent Sobleski @brentsobleski
We officially have the weakest roughing the passer call of all time. Everybody can go home now.
massraider
Footballguy
No. The officials gave a 10 yard makeup call the next play (which isn't equal to a drive-ending sack, but it's the best they can do).
When they really mess up a call, and they know it, NFL officials all have a way of making themselves look really busy, suddenly they look really concerned, as they check and re-check the ball spot, while 60,000 people are trying to make eye contact with them.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
Not a fan of either team and that was one of the most disgusting calls I've ever seen. As a fan that leaves you with a feeling of hopelessness. Probably not a good word to use in this context and is exaggerated, but that's the way I felt.
The Duff Man
Footballguy
I wouldn’t watch the NFL but for one thing. It is fun to be a Bills fan. The team is likeable, and the fan base is a riot and feels like a community. Game day experience is incredible. I don’t watch any other football other than games that impact their standings.
Years ago I came to the realization that the refs dramatically impact a team’s fortune on a weekly basis, so there is no point getting worked up about any single call.
Any team can have their season end on a bad call at the end of a game. If I am not good with that as a fan I probably shouldn’t watch or I am just setting myself up to get angry.
I quit fantasy about 5 years ago after 16 years.
Years ago I came to the realization that the refs dramatically impact a team’s fortune on a weekly basis, so there is no point getting worked up about any single call.
Any team can have their season end on a bad call at the end of a game. If I am not good with that as a fan I probably shouldn’t watch or I am just setting myself up to get angry.
I quit fantasy about 5 years ago after 16 years.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
I'm guessing you got angry a lot in fantasy football and decided it was better to quit playing.
BeTheMatch
Footballguy
Seems like this thread should probably be bumped today
DocHolliday
Footballguy
Don’t know how the refs missed the obvious Colts fumble that the Vikes returned for a TD.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Gee I wonder why the officiating thread got bumped.
sushinsky4tsar
Footballguy
You can bump it again for the no-call on the last play of Giants-Commanders on SNF.
Has officiating ruined the NFL? I wouldn't go that far, but it does seem to be hurting the overall product. Due in part to all of the calls that are getting missed, the NFL makes it a point to train the officials not to blow the play dead, and let any questionable play conclude before making a ruling on the field. When the officials are getting the call on the field wrong, and also so certain of their wrong call that they're blowing the play dead, where do you go from there?
Would love to see a larger slice of the NFL's pot of revenue invested in rewarding the top (or even adequately) graded officiating crews. Put more crews together in the pipeline so that there's real consequences for a crew that performs as poorly as the one assigned to the Vikings-Colts game. They should go to the bottom of a waitlist of about a half-dozen upstart crews looking for their crack at NFL action. If they can succeed in not making the officiating a glaring weakness that decides the outcomes of their assigned games, get them a larger payday to keep the competition robust. I know this is all a pipedream, but I'm not sure why it should be in a league this profitable.
Has officiating ruined the NFL? I wouldn't go that far, but it does seem to be hurting the overall product. Due in part to all of the calls that are getting missed, the NFL makes it a point to train the officials not to blow the play dead, and let any questionable play conclude before making a ruling on the field. When the officials are getting the call on the field wrong, and also so certain of their wrong call that they're blowing the play dead, where do you go from there?
Would love to see a larger slice of the NFL's pot of revenue invested in rewarding the top (or even adequately) graded officiating crews. Put more crews together in the pipeline so that there's real consequences for a crew that performs as poorly as the one assigned to the Vikings-Colts game. They should go to the bottom of a waitlist of about a half-dozen upstart crews looking for their crack at NFL action. If they can succeed in not making the officiating a glaring weakness that decides the outcomes of their assigned games, get them a larger payday to keep the competition robust. I know this is all a pipedream, but I'm not sure why it should be in a league this profitable.
you guys are starting with an incorrect premise.
You presume the NFL wants to get the calls correct.
WRONG
The NFL wants to control game outcomes thru the officials, which is why there are so many confusing, inconsistent rules and interpretations.
pass interference, what's a catch, holding
Calls can be made at any time against either team, depending on which way they want the game to go at that time.
No coincidence that most of the games this week stayed close (even the early blowouts) with several going to OT and other decided on last play of the game.
Gambling partners and advertisers think the NFL is just fine
Raiders TD with foot clearly out of bounds.
Redskins screwed out of 2 end of game scoring plays
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ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
If you're up for a long read, Peter King spent a week embedded with an officiating crew back in 2013. Some really good insights on how they prepare for a game, balance officiating with their "day jobs", etc.
ChiefD
Footballguy
Yep. This 100%.
sushinsky4tsar
Footballguy
@Obie Wan , how would you explain robbing the Commanders of another chance to score a TD and potentially tie the game with a 2-pt conversion? If they're making calls based on what's good for entertainment, don't you make the call there?
At least two examples to the contrary in the Viking-Colts game that would have resulted in a closer game had the proper call been made. There was another one the week previous where Jefferson was erroneously whistled out-of-bounds on what would have been a TD to pull within one score with 3:30 left in the game.
It's not a bad theory. I'm not saying that the NFL is above ever going that route at some point in a dystopian future. As a rube watching the game on a couch, the plays where the team that's trailing gets robbed are always the most frustrating when you're just a fan watching purely for entertainment. However, I'm going to pass on this conspiracy theory for the present day problem of what ails NFL officiating.
At least two examples to the contrary in the Viking-Colts game that would have resulted in a closer game had the proper call been made. There was another one the week previous where Jefferson was erroneously whistled out-of-bounds on what would have been a TD to pull within one score with 3:30 left in the game.
It's not a bad theory. I'm not saying that the NFL is above ever going that route at some point in a dystopian future. As a rube watching the game on a couch, the plays where the team that's trailing gets robbed are always the most frustrating when you're just a fan watching purely for entertainment. However, I'm going to pass on this conspiracy theory for the present day problem of what ails NFL officiating.
Pip's Invitation
Footballguy
If you really believe this, then why are you still watching the games/playing FF/betting on games/etc?
The Duff Man
Footballguy
It has been this way for years…
ghostguy123
Footballguy
That's two totally different conversations. If you assume the NFL wants the officiating correct, then we can have the conversation about how much the officiating sucks and ways to make it better.
If you assume the NFL is basically rigged, then there is no point having the officiating discussion.
In many ways it seems like things might be rigged with the point spread in mind, which is yet a third completely different conversation to have.
If you assume the NFL is basically rigged, then there is no point having the officiating discussion.
In many ways it seems like things might be rigged with the point spread in mind, which is yet a third completely different conversation to have.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
"Never attribute to malevolence what is merely due to incompetence”
Perhaps if the always cheapazz NFL used full time officials they would get a better product that also didn't invite quite as many "fixed " allegations.
Perhaps if the always cheapazz NFL used full time officials they would get a better product that also didn't invite quite as many "fixed " allegations.
as a Bills fan, suffered for 20 years of getting screwed by refs in favor of the Pats every time they played
With Josh Allen, Bills have a chance to be the NFL media darlings for a while
will hang around for the potential payback, as it seems the Pats deal with the devil has expired.
yeah - no incentive to work with their gambling partners to get desirable outcomes
pretty obtuse to think the NFL has only 1 driver to determine selective outcomes
screwing Daniel Snyder explains the Redskins getting hosed
the point is the loosey-goosely officiating gives the NFL a tool to influence games, for whatever reason
lack of accountability for refs butchering calls just reinforces that theory
sushinsky4tsar
Footballguy
Okay, my mistake. It's not just a dramatic finish that the NFL is after. It's also getting an outcome that will satisfy their gambling partners, screw over Dan Snyder, and a combination of whatever else.... use your imagination.
I will stick with basic run-of-the-mill incompetence that's going to rear its ugly head a number of times over the course of an 18-week schedule in a 32-team league. I wish that the NFL would make an investment in quality control to eliminate some of these ugly moments that are affecting playoff races. At the end of the day, they would rather have another $1 or $2 M in the coffers of each of their teams. No grand conspiracy, but to each their own.
⚡DEADHEAD⚡
Footballguy
...in every sport in every country at every level. Because every one of us makes mistakes, most of us have some sort of subconscious bias, and some of us are corruptible.
Incompetence would never be tolerated if the NFL were serious about fairness, consistency and the rules themselves.
You would think a $10 billion company would absolutely demand that there be consistency and transparency in the officiating of their product.
There's only a maximum of 16 games a week that need to be monitored - not a tough task
why don't they?
unless they have very compelling reasons not to
Brunell4MVP
Footballguy
There are 121 officials. At $200K that's $24M per year in salary, so maybe you have to add ~ 150K per official to make them full time. And I don't think that's the issue at all for a league with franchises valued at $1-7 BILLION, billions in TV revenue, and a commish making $50M a year.
The issue is really that if they become full time, a number of officials would be out. And therein is the crux of the issue. The officials don't want to be full time. I'm sure some make over $200K away from football as doctors, lawyers, etc. A few I've read are banking over $1m elsewhere. They've got this as a side gig and if it goes full time, they would likely do only their real job and be out of the NFL circle. And they don't want to be out of the circle. So the refs themselves are what is keeping this a part time gig so they don't get replaced by full time similar cost options.
That side judge that flagged McLaurin has had problems in the past. But yet he's been in the last 3 super bowls. And I think it was that woman Sarah Thomas that is horrible that missed the PI call ( i could be wrong on this but think it was). It doesn't matter The officials union doesn't care. Who is gonna stop them? They operate separate from the NFL. This is their chance to get a few extra buck, be part of the NFL circle, not have to answer for their decisions, and do so without any penalty for being wrong .... game after game after game.
The issue is really that if they become full time, a number of officials would be out. And therein is the crux of the issue. The officials don't want to be full time. I'm sure some make over $200K away from football as doctors, lawyers, etc. A few I've read are banking over $1m elsewhere. They've got this as a side gig and if it goes full time, they would likely do only their real job and be out of the NFL circle. And they don't want to be out of the circle. So the refs themselves are what is keeping this a part time gig so they don't get replaced by full time similar cost options.
That side judge that flagged McLaurin has had problems in the past. But yet he's been in the last 3 super bowls. And I think it was that woman Sarah Thomas that is horrible that missed the PI call ( i could be wrong on this but think it was). It doesn't matter The officials union doesn't care. Who is gonna stop them? They operate separate from the NFL. This is their chance to get a few extra buck, be part of the NFL circle, not have to answer for their decisions, and do so without any penalty for being wrong .... game after game after game.
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sushinsky4tsar
Footballguy
Money -- specifically, bottom line profits for the current season. Lack of vision. Lack of stewardship. Lack of leadership. But that's just my theory.
In professional and big college sports, there are many examples of teams squeezing the public for every last drop. Even at the expense of what that might mean for the viability of their product many years down the road.
If every team throws $1M at officiating, it doesn't magically fix officiating in 2022 or 2023. It's an investment that probably doesn't start to result in an actual tangible improvement for a number of years down the road.
HW_53
Footballguy
If a league is going to depend on 'replay' technology to support it's officiated decisions, then that technology needs to be consistently placed, monitored, and calibrated on EVERY field in which the games are played. It isn't at this point, which tells you everything you need to know. Its all bs.
The fact the officials get as much 'right' as they do in real time is damn impressive, if you ask me. It's not an easy task. However, if the NFL were sincere in their quest for 'justice' in officiating, so much more could be done than currently is. Put a chip in the damn ball - it wouldn't cost them too much at this point. Just ask my dog.
Edited to add more ranting.
The fact the officials get as much 'right' as they do in real time is damn impressive, if you ask me. It's not an easy task. However, if the NFL were sincere in their quest for 'justice' in officiating, so much more could be done than currently is. Put a chip in the damn ball - it wouldn't cost them too much at this point. Just ask my dog.
Edited to add more ranting.
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sushinsky4tsar
Footballguy
Thanks for the numbers. I would really like to think that money can (eventually) solve this and that it would ultimately be in the league's best interest. If it's something like $24M in salary now, what if we went to another $1M per team to get to $56M? Would that be enough leverage to work with the union to ensure that we're getting more accountability, more competition, more training, more recruiting, etc? If not, how about $88M?
It would be great if we got to a point where the lesser D-1 athletes without a likely NFL future actually had enough of a dangling carrot to incentivize the pursuit of an officiating career in the NFL.
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not likely the league is going to spend $50 million to make it harder to control the outcomes
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Look at the stats from a refereeing point of view.
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Rick Gosselin
@RickGosselin9
Through the first 16 weeks of the 2022 NFL season encompassing 240 games, only 12 times had a team been assessed 100 penalty yards in games.
The Tennessee Titans became the 13th team assessed 100 yards in penalties Thursday night against the Cowboys.
Rick Gosselin
@RickGosselin9
The Cowboys-Titans game has drawn the Shawn Hochuli officiating crew.
The last time the Cowboys saw Hochuli he was assessing them a franchise-record 166 yards on 14 penalties in a 2021 home loss to Las Vegas.
Home teams are a league-best 10-4 with Hochuli this season.
------------------------
Rick Gosselin
@RickGosselin9
Through the first 16 weeks of the 2022 NFL season encompassing 240 games, only 12 times had a team been assessed 100 penalty yards in games.
The Tennessee Titans became the 13th team assessed 100 yards in penalties Thursday night against the Cowboys.
Rick Gosselin
@RickGosselin9
The Cowboys-Titans game has drawn the Shawn Hochuli officiating crew.
The last time the Cowboys saw Hochuli he was assessing them a franchise-record 166 yards on 14 penalties in a 2021 home loss to Las Vegas.
Home teams are a league-best 10-4 with Hochuli this season.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
No idea what is trying to be said here
if he isn't calling and announcing boatloads of penalties, nobody would know his name or who he is
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Here is the next ridiculous proposed rule change that is getting massive blowback from players.
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Garrett Bush@Gbush91
I have a serious question
Im totally confused 
how any defensive player can theoretically tackle a player from behind while in pursuit. You can’t use the horse collar, can’t touch their facemask, now its illegal to tackle a guy around his waist. The NFL can never chill our------------------
Dov Kleiman
@NFL_DovKleiman
The #NFL is planning to have an "active conversation" this offseason about possibly banning the “hip drop” tackles, according to NFL's CMO Allen Sills.
LINK to >>> Picture Showing the 'hip drop' technique of defender tackling ball carrier from behind.
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Dov Kleiman
@NFL_DovKleiman
NFL players reaction... not loving it to say the least.
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>>> LINK
>>> More negative feedback from NFL players on proposed rule change
>>> More negative feedback
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
I can’t believe people are advocating for this. (Some are even for horse collar and gator rolls
) You can tackle like youve been tackling for 100 years. It’s only dudes out here intentionally hurting people that are causing this.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Lol, the people who actually play the game are advocating for it so I'll take their word as fact especially since I've played on a much lower level and know that you HAVE to drop your entire weight if you don't have leverage and it has NOTING WHATSOEVER TO DO with intentionally trying to hurt anyone.
What an idiotic take.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
That rule might ruin the game. Penalty every other play just for that, to go along with all the other penalties.
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
Thanks for calling my opinion “idiotic” Who pissed in your corn flakes?
There is a difference between wrapping up a guy and attaching yourself to them and dropping the entire weight of your body into their lower extremities. It’s the same exact thing as the horse collar.
I also played football.
