Ole Miss basketball players take a knee (1 Viewer)

[KCitons]

see the problem with the bolded and underlined? the Confederate flag is a symbol of hate and treason to the US. 

Shouldn't we be moving to ban the Confederate Flag?

 

[Sheriff Bart]

Shouldn't we be moving to ban the Confederate Flag?

From publicly funded space, yes. 

 

[squistion]

So he is being more respectful than people who stand to the flag of the country that is oppressing him?  No one genuflects to the American flag as a sign of respect.   At least be honest with his intentions. 

No, not more respectful or as respectful but I still see it as being respectful.

From an interview with the ex-Green Beret who suggested kneeling instead of sitting to Kaepernick:

https://www.npr.org/2018/09/09/646115651/the-veteran-and-nfl-player-who-advised-kaepernick-to-take-a-knee

And, you know, people - in my opinions and in my experience, kneeling's never been in our history really seen as a disrespectful act. I mean, people kneel when they get knighted. You kneel to propose to your wife, and you take a knee to pray. And soldiers often take a knee in front of a fallen brother's grave to pay respects. So I thought, if anything, besides standing, that was the most respectful. But, of course, that's just my opinion.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Hmm  

Your governor is the nephew of one of Emmet Till’s murderers.

The state flag is the only one that contains the confederate flag.

Not that bad? 

Only one hate crime in 2017 in Mississippi. If we trust kamala harris that is.

 

[KCitons]

From publicly funded space, yes. 

Why only publicly funded spaces? It's a symbol of hate. 

 

[squistion]

Shouldn't we be moving to ban the Confederate Flag?

No, the swastika and Nazi flag have not been banned anywhere in this country and they are considered much more offensive than the Confederate Flag and it is not even close.

 

[KCitons]

No, the swastika and Nazi flag have not been banned anywhere in this country and they are considered much more offensive than the Confederate Flag and it is not even close.

Why have we not banned both?

 

[squistion]

Why have we not banned both?

Might have something to do with that pesky 1st Amendment freedom of speech thingy.

 

[KCitons]

Might have something to do with that pesky 1st Amendment freedom of speech thingy.

Right. So we have people protesting on a State University campus. Also freedom of speech and freedom to public assembly. Would you support the employers of those Confederate supporters firing them?

 

[Shula-holic]

From what I’ve seen locally and on the message boards for the team, the supporters of the school are largely on the side of the players here. Some don’t understand the choosing the anthem to make their statement but they do agree with the players so by in large so far I don’t see a big boycott of events or anything like that. 

 

[squistion]

Right. So we have people protesting on a State University campus. Also freedom of speech and freedom to public assembly. Would you support the employers of those Confederate supporters firing them?

If they are private employers, then they have every right to terminate employees for political activity they don't approve of even if it occurs at a State University campus. I think it may be unfortunate depending on what is being protested, but the right of free speech does not protect one from the consequences of that speech from a private employer.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Why have we not banned both?

Germany has banned swastikas, but that cuts a little close to home for them.

 

[Ilov80s]

Simplest answer, the announcer says "please rise for our National Anthem". If you choose to kneel or sit, it's seen as doing the opposite of what is asked. 

Sitting and kneeling are very different. I would say asking for someone to stand out of respect and then they kneel means they are showing even more respect. They are going beyond what is asked. 

 

[KCitons]

If they are private employers, then they have every right to terminate employees for political activity they don't approve of even if it occurs at a State University campus. I think it may be unfortunate depending on what is being protested, but the right of free speech does not protect one from the consequences of that speech from a private employer.

Does a college player, who's scholarship may be paid by group, organization, or taxpayers money, have the right to keep that scholarship,  should that group disagree with kneeling during the anthem?

 

[KCitons]

Sitting and kneeling are very different. I would say asking for someone to stand out of respect and then they kneel means they are showing even more respect. They are going beyond what is asked. 

Do you think they were kneeling out of respect or in protest? We assign all kinds of values to non verbal communication. I could hold my hand up to you. If I do so with the palm facing you, the assumption is I want you to stop. If I put my thumb up, it means I approve. Thumb down, I disapprove. If I give you the middle finger, you'd take offense and it may escalate the situation. In the end, I put my hand up. The subtleties are where the meaning is determined. 

 

[Ilov80s]

Do you think they were kneeling out of respect or in protest? We assign all kinds of values to non verbal communication. I could hold my hand up to you. If I do so with the palm facing you, the assumption is I want you to stop. If I put my thumb up, it means I approve. Thumb down, I disapprove. If I give you the middle finger, you'd take offense and it may escalate the situation. In the end, I put my hand up. The subtleties are where the meaning is determined. 

I don’t think they were protesting the anthem or the flag, there’s no evidence of that I wouldn’t assume they a physical gesture that is typically associated with respect, admiration and submission was negative or disrespectful. It seems like they wanted to draw attention to a Confederate rally and it seems to have worked. 

 

[KCitons]

I don’t think they were protesting the anthem or the flag, there’s no evidence of that I wouldn’t assume they a physical gesture that is typically associated with respect, admiration and submission was negative or disrespectful. It seems like they wanted to draw attention to a Confederate rally and it seems to have worked. 

Right. But will it have the effect they desire. Which would be to ban the Confederate rally from campus property. That's infringing on that groups right to assemble peacefully. Is one groups right to protest greater than the others?

At this point, it appears that taking a knee has negative effects in regards to a wide range of people. Ole Miss supporters as well. Hopefully, the offset is worth it and has lasting effects. Time will tell. I think this is an example of "the end justifies the means". Which means someone has to lose, in order for someone to win. Unfortunately, there is collateral damage. 

 

[squistion]

Does a college player, who's scholarship may be paid by group, organization, or taxpayers money, have the right to keep that scholarship,  should that group disagree with kneeling during the anthem?

In this case, it is a moot point. Even though Ole Miss players on a scholarship have to follow a code of conduct to maintain their scholarship, that should not be a problem in this instance as the coach indicated he had no objection to it:

http://www.sportingnews.com/us/ncaa-basketball/news/ole-miss-basketball-players-kneel-during-national-anthem-pro-confederate-march/z5lmemce43i51g280qgkwa4a2

[...]

While NFL players, led by quarterback Colin Kaepernick, have protested racial inequality in the U.S. by refusing to stand during the national anthem, the practice has not been widespread in the college ranks, where student-athletes typically have follow codes of conduct to maintain scholarships.

Ole Miss coach Kermit Davis previously said he would not support anthem protests. However, he was supportive of the team's actions Saturday.

"This was all about the hate groups that came to our community and tried to spread racism and bigotry in our community," Davis said. "Our players made an emotional decision to show these people they're not welcome on our campus, and we respect our players' freedom and ability to choose that."

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Why have we not banned both?

cuz this is America.

the same reason you can protest the anthem, is the same reason you can fly that flag.....we also are not free from criticism for our actions....

 

[KCitons]

In this case, it is a moot point. Even though Ole Miss players on a scholarship have to follow a code of conduct to maintain their scholarship, that should not be a problem in this instance as the coach indicated he had no objection to it:

http://www.sportingnews.com/us/ncaa-basketball/news/ole-miss-basketball-players-kneel-during-national-anthem-pro-confederate-march/z5lmemce43i51g280qgkwa4a2

[...]

While NFL players, led by quarterback Colin Kaepernick, have protested racial inequality in the U.S. by refusing to stand during the national anthem, the practice has not been widespread in the college ranks, where student-athletes typically have follow codes of conduct to maintain scholarships.

Ole Miss coach Kermit Davis previously said he would not support anthem protests. However, he was supportive of the team's actions Saturday.

"This was all about the hate groups that came to our community and tried to spread racism and bigotry in our community," Davis said. "Our players made an emotional decision to show these people they're not welcome on our campus, and we respect our players' freedom and ability to choose that."

Your comment only addresses one part of my statement. What about private groups that funded the scholarship? 

Also, I'm not sure Davis' is the sole decision maker when it comes to code of conduct. 

And, as I mentioned to @Ilov80s, both sides have their rights protected under free speech and assembly. The only ones that end up losing in this equation are the people that disagree with kneeling during the anthem. Nothing will change with the Confederate protesters, and nothing will change with the basketball players. The Constitution protects that. 

 

[Ilov80s]

Right. But will it have the effect they desire. Which would be to ban the Confederate rally from campus property. That's infringing on that groups right to assemble peacefully. Is one groups right to protest greater than the others?

No it won’t get them banned and I’m not even sure if that’s what the players want or if they just are using their position as student athletes to peacefully and respectfully draw attention to the fact that we have what they perceive as a racially motivated protest at their school. 

 

[squistion]

Your comment only addresses one part of my statement. What about private groups that funded the scholarship? 

Also, I'm not sure Davis' is the sole decision maker when it comes to code of conduct. 

And, as I mentioned to @Ilov80s, both sides have their rights protected under free speech and assembly. The only ones that end up losing in this equation are the people that disagree with kneeling during the anthem. Nothing will change with the Confederate protesters, and nothing will change with the basketball players. The Constitution protects that. 

Well what about them? A private group that gives money to a state run university has no right to dictate the terms of a scholarship. If they don't like it, they can lodge their objections to the university, but if the school doesn't choose to act, there is nothing they can do about it, except give their money elsewhere in the future.

 

[KCitons]

No it won’t get them banned and I’m not even sure if that’s what the players want or if they just are using their position as student athletes to peacefully and respectfully draw attention to the fact that we have what they perceive as a racially motivated protest at their school. 

Did we need them to take a knee to make us aware that we have a racially motivated protest at their school? Don't they have press conferences after most games. They had one after this game. Which is where we learned about the Confederate protesters.

In the end, nothing changes. But, the overall effects from kneeling may have caused negative results for a percentage of people. 

Sorry. But, I try to find solutions to problems. Not create more problems. 

 

[KCitons]

Well what about them? A private group that gives money to a state run university has no right to dictate the terms of a scholarship. If they don't like it, they can lodge their objections to the university, but if the school doesn't choose to act, there is nothing they can do about it, except give their money elsewhere in the future.

Does that help or hurt the University?

Again, this isn't about a donor supporting the Confederate protesters. This is about the donor supporting or not supporting the players taking a knee during the anthem. 

 

[Ilov80s]

Did we need them to take a knee to make us aware that we have a racially motivated protest at their school? Don't they have press conferences after most games. They had one after this game. Which is where we learned about the Confederate protesters.

In the end, nothing changes. But, the overall effects from kneeling may have caused negative results for a percentage of people. 

Sorry. But, I try to find solutions to problems. Not create more problems. 

You are the one choosing to perceive what is almost always a sign of respect as a sign of disrespect. It’s something you should reconsider imo. I didn’t know about the protesters at Ol Miss and I doubt I would have if not the story about the players kneelkng so at some level it has gained attention. 

Have a good rest of the day, I’m done here because I’ve said all I really have to say.

 

[Sammy3469]

Did we need them to take a knee to make us aware that we have a racially motivated protest at their school? Don't they have press conferences after most games. They had one after this game. Which is where we learned about the Confederate protesters.

In the end, nothing changes. But, the overall effects from kneeling may have caused negative results for a percentage of people. 

Sorry. But, I try to find solutions to problems. Not create more problems. 

Seems to have put the spotlight on the school, so I’d say yes.  

Only with you convoluted logic is calling out racism creating a new problem.  I’d say your part of the problem, not trying to find a solution.

 

[KCitons]

Seems to have put the spotlight on the school, so I’d say yes.  

Only with you convoluted logic is calling out racism creating a new problem.  I’d say your part of the problem, not trying to find a solution.

Yes, start with the personal attacks. That always solves the problem.

We've already established that the actions of the players is not likely to change anything. We know that there are a percentage of people that don't agree with kneeling during the anthem. 

So, the question begs, what was really accomplished? Was there a net gain, or a net loss?

 

[Leroy Hoard]

So, the question begs, what was really accomplished? Was there a net gain, or a net loss?

If it were not for their actions most would know nothing about the confederate march. So yes they did accomplish something.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Yes, start with the personal attacks. That always solves the problem.

We've already established that the actions of the players is not likely to change anything. We know that there are a percentage of people that don't agree with kneeling during the anthem. 

So, the question begs, what was really accomplished? Was there a net gain, or a net loss?

well we are aware of it 

 

[Juxtatarot]

Yes, start with the personal attacks. That always solves the problem.

We've already established that the actions of the players is not likely to change anything. We know that there are a percentage of people that don't agree with kneeling during the anthem. 

So, the question begs, what was really accomplished? Was there a net gain, or a net loss?

They have brought awareness to the problem that we have people marching in Oxford, MS that are carrying confederate flags.  Hopefully someday everyone will agree that carrying such flags is shameful.  This might play a small part in making that happen.

 

[squistion]

Yes, start with the personal attacks. That always solves the problem.

We've already established that the actions of the players is not likely to change anything. We know that there are a percentage of people that don't agree with kneeling during the anthem. 

So, the question begs, what was really accomplished? Was there a net gain, or a net loss?

It doesn't matter. If you demand that a protest always be shown to have accomplished something immediately or that there be a visible net gain, then there probably wouldn't be any protests at all. 

And occasionally, while not apparent at the time, things do get changed in the long run. For instance, you could argue that Rosa Parks accomplished nothing at the time when she refused to give up her bus seat and got arrested - but ultimately it resulted in ending the discriminatory policy of the Montgomery Alabama bus district.

 

[KCitons]

If it were not for their actions most would know nothing about the confederate march. So yes they did accomplish something.

well we are aware of it 

They have brought awareness to the problem that we have people marching in Oxford, MS that are carrying confederate flags.  Hopefully someday everyone will agree that carrying such flags is shameful.  This might play a small part in making that happen.

You didn't support the Confederate protesters last week. Now you know about it and you still don't support them. 

Unless you're going to advocate for new laws,  (and changing the Constitution) you're knowing about them made zero difference. 

What it did do was renew the conversation about kneeling during the anthem. If that was the purpose, then they succeeded.

 

[Sinn Fein]

We know that there are a percentage of people that don't agree with kneeling during the anthem. 

My response:  so what?

I find most of the people who oppose kneeling during the anthem are the most anti-American people out there.  I don't care if their feelings are hurt.

 

[Juxtatarot]

You didn't support the Confederate protesters last week. Now you know about it and you still don't support them. 

Unless you're going to advocate for new laws,  (and changing the Constitution) you're knowing about them made zero difference. 

What it did do was renew the conversation about kneeling during the anthem. If that was the purpose, then they succeeded.

My hope is it sparks more conversations in the south about the confederate flag and what it represents.  There has been a great deal of progress made in educating people about this over the years but more needs to be done.

 

[Da Guru]

Why is kneeling considered disrespectful to the anthem? From everything I’ve seen in all other phases of life kneeling is a sign of respect and adoration. Kneel to propose marriage,kneel during Church for the most important parts, kneeling before a Monarch/Emperor, kneel to beg for forgiveness, kneel to pray, kneel to show that you are giving yourself up in a fight/struggle, etc. Why is this the one case where kneeling is being considered aggressive and disrespectful?

I agree..kneeling is a sign of respect and submission.

 

[squistion]

You didn't support the Confederate protesters last week. Now you know about it and you still don't support them. 

Unless you're going to advocate for new laws,  (and changing the Constitution) you're knowing about them made zero difference. 

What it did do was renew the conversation about kneeling during the anthem. If that was the purpose, then they succeeded.

 

Um, I don't follow this logic. We shouldn't be made aware of what we find or would find objectionable unless we start advocating for new laws? So presumably, this type of protest should not be allowed or press coverage of it should be prohibited because our knowledge probably makes zero difference.  Wow.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

My hope is it sparks more conversations in the south about the confederate flag and what it represents.  There has been a great deal of progress made in educating people about this over the years but more needs to be done.

They were traitors. That alone makes it wrong from a patriotic angle. 

 

[KCitons]

 

Um, I don't follow this logic. We shouldn't be made aware of what we find or would find objectionable unless we start advocating for new laws? So presumably, this type of protest should not be allowed or press coverage of it should be prohibited because our knowledge probably makes zero difference.  Wow.

You're right. You don't follow this logic.

You were against Confederate protests a week ago. You didn't need this latest incident to help you decide that these protesters are not something we want in this country. But, since we are limited in what we can actually do, it doesn't make any difference. 

 

[KCitons]

My hope is it sparks more conversations in the south about the confederate flag and what it represents.  There has been a great deal of progress made in educating people about this over the years but more needs to be done.

This takes us back to one of my original comments in this thread. 

Why don't we ban Confederate flags and ban protests by these groups?

 

[KCitons]

My response:  so what?

I find most of the people who oppose kneeling during the anthem are the most anti-American people out there.  I don't care if their feelings are hurt.

Isn't this the attitude that we are trying to change?

Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[Juxtatarot]

This takes us back to one of my original comments in this thread. 

Why don't we ban Confederate flags and ban protests by these groups?

I thought this was answered. Freedom of speech.

 

[squistion]

You're right. You don't follow this logic.

You were against Confederate protests a week ago. You didn't need this latest incident to help you decide that these protesters are not something we want in this country. But, since we are limited in what we can actually do, it doesn't make any difference. 

Which is a justification for never doing anything and/or prohibiting press coverage, despite countless examples (Rosa Parks, lunch counter protests, Stonewall riots, etc.) that sometimes it does make a difference.

 

[squistion]

I thought this was answered. Freedom of speech.

It was, but he won't listen.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Isn't this the attitude that we are trying to change?

Two wrongs don't make a right.

What attitude?  I have to like everyone now?

I am not wrong...

 

[Juxtatarot]

You're right. You don't follow this logic.

You were against Confederate protests a week ago. You didn't need this latest incident to help you decide that these protesters are not something we want in this country. But, since we are limited in what we can actually do, it doesn't make any difference. 

We want to change hearts and minds.

 

[KCitons]

Which is a justification for never doing anything and/or prohibiting press coverage, despite countless examples (Rosa Parks, lunch counter protests, Stonewall riots, etc.) that sometimes it does make a difference.

I thought this was answered. Freedom of speech.

It was, but he won't listen.

I listened. 

But, you guys are contradicting each other. 

I've asked a couple of times now. What did kneeling really solve. Was it a net gain, or net loss?

 

[KCitons]

We want to change hearts and minds.

By kneeling?

Again, most people have their opinions on the Confederate protesters. How you choose to make people aware of those protests is what's up for discussion. They aren't changing peoples minds about the protesters or how they feel about athletes that kneel during the National Anthem. 

 

[Juxtatarot]

I listened. 

But, you guys are contradicting each other. 

I've asked a couple of times now. What did kneeling really solve. Was it a net gain, or net loss?

This has been answered too.  Bringing awareness can get people talking and hopefully educate people about these groups.  That’s a gain.

 

[squistion]

I listened. 

But, you guys are contradicting each other. 

I've asked a couple of times now. What did kneeling really solve. Was it a net gain, or net loss?

No you asked this:

This takes us back to one of my original comments in this thread. 

Why don't we ban Confederate flags and ban protests by these groups?

And the answer was the 1st Amendment of the Constitution.

 

[KCitons]

What attitude?  I have to like everyone now?

I am not wrong...

Isn't this the attitude that we are trying to change?

Two wrongs don't make a right.

My response:  so what?

I find most of the people who oppose kneeling during the anthem are the most anti-American people out there.  I don't care if their feelings are hurt.

Do you have data to back this up?

Seems as though you are stereotyping a group of people.