One Point Safety (1 Viewer)

[David Yudkin]

I found an interesting blurb in an explanation of league rules, and I'm wondering if this has ever actually happened in an NFL game:

Under NFL rules, an unsuccessful try-for-point is dead if kicked, but while attempting a two-point try, it is possible for a safety to be ruled if the defensive team forces the ball back into their own end zone and they recover. One point would be awarded, instead of the two points that are normally awarded for safeties.

LINKAnyone see this or know of a game where this happened?

 

[radballs]

I found an interesting blurb in an explanation of league rules, and I'm wondering if this has ever actually happened in an NFL game:

Under NFL rules, an unsuccessful try-for-point is dead if kicked, but while attempting a two-point try, it is possible for a safety to be ruled if the defensive team forces the ball back into their own end zone and they recover. One point would be awarded, instead of the two points that are normally awarded for safeties.

LINKAnyone see this or know of a game where this happened?

No #######g way this has ever happened.

 

[stugnut]

How would it be "forced"? Would the QB have to be sacked for a 98 yard loss?

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

[berman]

and they score the ROUGE....

[/berman]

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

How would it be "forced"? Would the QB have to be sacked for a 98 yard loss?

Here's the scenario:RB runs for a 2 pointer, but the ball is punched out of his arm from behind at the 1. The ball is recovered in the end zone by the defense.One point for the offense.Never has happened.

 

[PahtyTom]

How would it be "forced"? Would the QB have to be sacked for a 98 yard loss?

Here's the scenario:RB runs for a 2 pointer, but the ball is punched out of his arm from behind at the 1. The ball is recovered in the end zone by the defense.One point for the offense.Never has happened.

I think that's a touchback, no points. Unless you mean the ball is punched out 99 yards the other way out of the endzone. I could be wrong since the rule says "in their own endzone?".

 

[Bojang0301]

How would it be "forced"? Would the QB have to be sacked for a 98 yard loss?

Here's the scenario:RB runs for a 2 pointer, but the ball is punched out of his arm from behind at the 1. The ball is recovered in the end zone by the defense.One point for the offense.Never has happened.

I think that's a touchback, no points. Unless you mean the ball is punched out 99 yards the other way out of the endzone. I could be wrong since the rule says "in their own endzone?".

Not if they recover before the end zone then run back into the end zone.

 

[radballs]

How would it be "forced"? Would the QB have to be sacked for a 98 yard loss?

Here's the scenario:RB runs for a 2 pointer, but the ball is punched out of his arm from behind at the 1. The ball is recovered in the end zone by the defense.One point for the offense.Never has happened.

I think that's a touchback, no points. Unless you mean the ball is punched out 99 yards the other way out of the endzone. I could be wrong since the rule says "in their own endzone?".

This is the way I interpreted it. Like a 98 yard QB sack on a two point conversion.

 

[xfactor99]

So let me get this straight - hypothetically, what could happen is that a linebacker jars the ball loose from a running back, a safety picks it up and runs 99 yards, but a wide receiver tackles him at the last moment and forces the ball free, and the quarterback who has hauled ### back down the field recovers it in the end zone? That's a point, right?

 

[radballs]

So let me get this straight - hypothetically, what could happen is that a linebacker jars the ball loose from a running back, a safety picks it up and runs 99 yards, but a wide receiver tackles him at the last moment and forces the ball free, and the quarterback who has hauled ### back down the field recovers it in the end zone? That's a point, right?

No, a point for the defense when the QB picks it up anywhere between the 2 yard line (from where it was snapped) and the other 1 yard line and then gets sacked in the wrong end zone. I think.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

So let me get this straight - hypothetically, what could happen is that a linebacker jars the ball loose from a running back, a safety picks it up and runs 99 yards, but a wide receiver tackles him at the last moment and forces the ball free, and the quarterback who has hauled ### back down the field recovers it in the end zone? That's a point, right?

I don't think so. That would be a touchback, not a safety.The defense gets a point whenever it gets what would otherwise be a safety -- like a 99 yard sack. (Or a three yard sack if the offense snaps it from the "wrong" two yard-line, which it is allowed to do.)

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Here is the actual rule:

During this Try: ... if there is no kick and the Try results in what would ordinarily be a safety by the defense, one point is awarded to the offensive team.

 

[David Yudkin]

You guys are making this way more complicated than it actually is (although no more likely that it ever happened).

On a 2-pt conversion or a botched kick, if the defense recovers the ball and they take possession outside of the end zone and then get downed inside the endzone (or fumble out of bounds in the endzone), that would normally be a 2 point safety. In this case it would be scored as a single point safety.

 

[Grigs Allmoon]

On a 2-pt conversion or a botched kick, if the defense recovers the ball and they take possession outside of the end zone

Isn't the play over as soon as the defense takes possession on a conversion attempt. I'm pretty sure I've seen INTs on 2 point conversions that were blown dead when the Int is made.

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

You guys are making this way more complicated than it actually is (although no more likely that it ever happened).On a 2-pt conversion or a botched kick, if the defense recovers the ball and they take possession outside of the end zone and then get downed inside the endzone (or fumble out of bounds in the endzone), that would normally be a 2 point safety. In this case it would be scored as a single point safety.

Here is the actual rule:

During this Try: ... if there is no kick and the Try results in what would ordinarily be a safety by the defense, one point is awarded to the offensive team.

David,The scenario you lay out is opposite of the wording of the rule as MT states it.I was with your scenario, but MT's comment about "what would ordinarily be a safety by the defense" is the other end of the field.It also makes no logical sense - why would a Defensive Sack be points for the offense?If MT got the quote wrong then your scenario makes sense (such as forcing a fumble and kicking out of your own end zone on the try) - but I still think it has never happened.

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

On a 2-pt conversion or a botched kick, if the defense recovers the ball and they take possession outside of the end zone

Isn't the play over as soon as the defense takes possession on a conversion attempt. I'm pretty sure I've seen INTs on 2 point conversions that were blown dead when the Int is made.

This is correct, but a safety can happen by the defense never taking possession in their own end zone (such as a fumble through the end zone).

 

[Doug Drinen]

I could be wrong, but I vaguely remember this happening in the Texas vs. Texas A&M game not long ago. Let me take a look....

If Wikipedia is to be believed, the college rules for one-point safeties are different, but one did happen in a UT/A&M game in 2004.

 

[JAA]

everyone better make sure there FF rules are updated to support this! Otherwise its guarenteed to happen in the playoffs

 

[Grigs Allmoon]

On a 2-pt conversion or a botched kick, if the defense recovers the ball and they take possession outside of the end zone

Isn't the play over as soon as the defense takes possession on a conversion attempt. I'm pretty sure I've seen INTs on 2 point conversions that were blown dead when the Int is made.

This is correct, but a safety can happen by the defense never taking possession in their own end zone (such as a fumble through the end zone).

Agreed, but what does that have to do with my point?

 

[AB in DC]

I could be wrong, but I vaguely remember this happening in the Texas vs. Texas A&M game not long ago. Let me take a look....

If Wikipedia is to be believed, the college rules for one-point safeties are different, but one did happen in a UT/A&M game in 2004.

Just to clarify (I think you understand this already), but this particular scenario can't happen in the NFL, since the play is dead as soon as the defending team gains possession.I think the only way this could happen realistically is a Wrong Way Corrigan kind of scenario.

 

[David Yudkin]

After re-reading the quote I posted in the start of the thread, the defense would need to hit the ball backwards from the field of play into the endzone and either recover it or knock it through the endzone. In that case, the KICKING team would score the 1 point safety.

So it would involve the defense not taking full possession of the ball but still hitting it into their own endzone. Given that, I certainly won't be waiting around for that to happen anytime soon.

I do not believe that the defense can ever socre on an extra point attempt in the NFL.

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

After re-reading the quote I posted in the start of the thread, the defense would need to hit the ball backwards from the field of play into the endzone and either recover it or knock it through the endzone. In that case, the KICKING team would score the 1 point safety.So it would involve the defense not taking full possession of the ball but still hitting it into their own endzone. Given that, I certainly won't be waiting around for that to happen anytime soon.I do not believe that the defense can ever socre on an extra point attempt in the NFL.

That's my understanding as well.

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

On a 2-pt conversion or a botched kick, if the defense recovers the ball and they take possession outside of the end zone

Isn't the play over as soon as the defense takes possession on a conversion attempt.

I'm pretty sure I've seen INTs on 2 point conversions that were blown dead when the Int is made.

This is correct, but a safety can happen by the defense never taking possession in their own end zone (such as a fumble through the end zone).

Agreed, but what does that have to do with my point?

How was that NOT on point?

 

[AB in DC]

I'd like to see the wording of the actual rule.

 

[AB in DC]

Here's a thought -- has a two-point safety ever been scored, along the lines that David describes, on a normal offensive play? I've never seen two points being scored for a team when their offense is on the field.

 

[posty]

http://www.nfl.com/fans/rules/try

Try

1. After a touchdown, the scoring team is allowed a try during one scrimmage down. The ball may be spotted anywhere between the inbounds lines, two or more yards from the goal line. The successful conversion counts one point by kick; two points for a successful conversion by touchdown; or one point for a safety.

2. The defensive team never can score on a try. As soon as defense gets possession or the kick is blocked or a touchdown is not scored, the try is over.

 

[jabarony]

http://www.nfl.com/fans/rules/try

Try

1. After a touchdown, the scoring team is allowed a try during one scrimmage down. The ball may be spotted anywhere between the inbounds lines, two or more yards from the goal line. The successful conversion counts one point by kick; two points for a successful conversion by touchdown; or one point for a safety.

2. The defensive team never can score on a try. As soon as defense gets possession or the kick is blocked or a touchdown is not scored, the try is over.

Judging by this, it would seem to be impossible for the 1 pt safety to occur. That is, if the defense recovers a fumble, the play is dead before they have a chance to get safetied.However, I seem to recall something on this before where the Offense can actually snap the ball, run 98+ yards out of the back of their own end-zone and get a point for it. Obviously, this can't be, especially the way the rule states you can spot the ball anywhere. Otherwise teams would spot the ball on their own 1 and take a knee every time.

 

[s_ezy]

http://www.nfl.com/fans/rules/try

Try

1. After a touchdown, the scoring team is allowed a try during one scrimmage down. The ball may be spotted anywhere between the inbounds lines, two or more yards from the goal line. The successful conversion counts one point by kick; two points for a successful conversion by touchdown; or one point for a safety.

2. The defensive team never can score on a try. As soon as defense gets possession or the kick is blocked or a touchdown is not scored, the try is over.

Judging by this, it would seem to be impossible for the 1 pt safety to occur. That is, if the defense recovers a fumble, the play is dead before they have a chance to get safetied.However, I seem to recall something on this before where the Offense can actually snap the ball, run 98+ yards out of the back of their own end-zone and get a point for it. Obviously, this can't be, especially the way the rule states you can spot the ball anywhere. Otherwise teams would spot the ball on their own 1 and take a knee every time.

or just kick it on the try and score the point the "normal" way

 

[bigfishboy]

http://www.nfl.com/fans/rules/try

Try

1. After a touchdown, the scoring team is allowed a try during one scrimmage down. The ball may be spotted anywhere between the inbounds lines, two or more yards from the goal line. The successful conversion counts one point by kick; two points for a successful conversion by touchdown; or one point for a safety.

2. The defensive team never can score on a try. As soon as defense gets possession or the kick is blocked or a touchdown is not scored, the try is over.

Judging by this, it would seem to be impossible for the 1 pt safety to occur. That is, if the defense recovers a fumble, the play is dead before they have a chance to get safetied.However, I seem to recall something on this before where the Offense can actually snap the ball, run 98+ yards out of the back of their own end-zone and get a point for it. Obviously, this can't be, especially the way the rule states you can spot the ball anywhere. Otherwise teams would spot the ball on their own 1 and take a knee every time.

Or just snap it out the back of the endzone. This can't be right.

 

[GregR_2]

http://www.nfl.com/fans/rules/try

Try

1. After a touchdown, the scoring team is allowed a try during one scrimmage down. The ball may be spotted anywhere between the inbounds lines, two or more yards from the goal line. The successful conversion counts one point by kick; two points for a successful conversion by touchdown; or one point for a safety.

2. The defensive team never can score on a try. As soon as defense gets possession or the kick is blocked or a touchdown is not scored, the try is over.

Judging by this, it would seem to be impossible for the 1 pt safety to occur. That is, if the defense recovers a fumble, the play is dead before they have a chance to get safetied.However, I seem to recall something on this before where the Offense can actually snap the ball, run 98+ yards out of the back of their own end-zone and get a point for it. Obviously, this can't be, especially the way the rule states you can spot the ball anywhere. Otherwise teams would spot the ball on their own 1 and take a knee every time.

No, it is possible. I believe the part you're missing is that the defense must be the one to cause the ball to go from the field of play into their endzone. If so when they fall on it in the end zone, it is a safety. I'll check the official rulebook tonight when I get home for the exact wording, unless MT beats me to it.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

So let me get this straight - hypothetically, what could happen is that a linebacker jars the ball loose from a running back, a safety picks it up and runs 99 yards, but a wide receiver tackles him at the last moment and forces the ball free, and the quarterback who has hauled ### back down the field recovers it in the end zone? That's a point, right?

I don't think so. That would be a touchback, not a safety.The defense gets a point whenever it gets what would otherwise be a safety -- like a 99 yard sack. (Or a three yard sack if the offense snaps it from the "wrong" two yard-line, which it is allowed to do.)

Oops. The bolded part is wrong. The defense can never score a point on a try.

 

[David Yudkin]

http://www.nfl.com/fans/rules/try

Try

1. After a touchdown, the scoring team is allowed a try during one scrimmage down. The ball may be spotted anywhere between the inbounds lines, two or more yards from the goal line. The successful conversion counts one point by kick; two points for a successful conversion by touchdown; or one point for a safety.

2. The defensive team never can score on a try. As soon as defense gets possession or the kick is blocked or a touchdown is not scored, the try is over.

Judging by this, it would seem to be impossible for the 1 pt safety to occur. That is, if the defense recovers a fumble, the play is dead before they have a chance to get safetied.However, I seem to recall something on this before where the Offense can actually snap the ball, run 98+ yards out of the back of their own end-zone and get a point for it. Obviously, this can't be, especially the way the rule states you can spot the ball anywhere. Otherwise teams would spot the ball on their own 1 and take a knee every time.

As I mentioned above, the only way that the defense would be able to give up a 1-point safety is if the ball was in the field of play (read as: outside the endzone) and there is a fumble and the defense bats the ball away from an offensive player to prevent tthe offense from getting a two point conversion and the ball travels into the endzone and is either a) recovered by the defense and not run out of the endzone or b) knocked through the endzone.In the NFL, the defense cannot score any points on an extra point. In college, the defense CAN score on an extra point attempt by returning the ball 98 yards (in fact, I remember seeing highlights of games where that's happened). And Doug posted al ink to a safety on an extra point in an NCAA game.

As for spotting the ball, the rule is that you can spot it anywhere east and west on the two yard line . . . not north and south at any yard line.

 

[BroadwayG]

10 holding penalties in a row, then a snap out of the end zone?

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I'd like to see the wording of the actual rule.

I posted the operative part above. In addition, several people have quoted the digest of rules, which happens to be accurate in this case.I am not going to type out the part about where the ball may be spotted, or how it may be place-kicked for one point or run/passed in for two points. But here are the provisions relevant to the safety stuff:

During this Try: ... if there is no kick and the Try results in what would ordinarily be a safety by the defense, one point is awarded to to the offensive team. [Note: "by the defense" means "against the defense." -- MT]...During a Try: ... if any foul by the defense would ordinarily result in a safety, one point is awarded for the offensive team....During a Try the defensive team can never score. When it gains possession, the ball is dead immediately.

I don't know of any examples of fouls by the defense that would result in a safety. On a play from scrimmage, if the defense intercepts and then throws an illegal forward pass from its own end zone, it is a safety -- but on a Try the ball is dead as soon as the interception occurs. So I can't think of how a penalty would result in a one-point safety on a Try.A one-point safety would occur, however, when the offense fumbles and a defensive player bats it backward out of its own end zone (or into its own end zone and falls on it).

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

As for spotting the ball, the rule is that you can spot it anywhere east and west on the two yard line . . . not north and south at any yard line.

The offense may spot the ball at a point "(a) anywhere between the inbounds lines and (b) which is also two or more yards from the defensive team's goal."

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

10 holding penalties in a row, then a snap out of the end zone?

That's a safety by the offense. No points.

 

[David Yudkin]

Here's a thought -- has a two-point safety ever been scored, along the lines that David describes, on a normal offensive play? I've never seen two points being scored for a team when their offense is on the field.

I have seen some crazy plays on offense, defense, special teams, and change of possession plays. A year or two ago, there was a play where a WR caught a pass and ran along the sideline but fumbled at the 1 yard line but right near the sideline. A defender slid to recover the fumble (which he successfully did) but slid across the endzone line and slide out of bounds after crossing the goalline.The call was a safety for the offense. Unlike interceptions where a defender can be spotted at the spot of the interception even if his momentum carried him into the endzone, there is no such rule forfumble recoveries. So the defense had to run the ball out of the endzone but didn't to avoid a safety and obviously that didn't happen.

 

[The Ref]

You guys are making this way more complicated than it actually is (although no more likely that it ever happened).On a 2-pt conversion or a botched kick, if the defense recovers the ball and they take possession outside of the end zone and then get downed inside the endzone (or fumble out of bounds in the endzone), that would normally be a 2 point safety. In this case it would be scored as a single point safety.

Bingo! Nice job. This is the most probable way that would would ever see this happen. I have actualy called a one point safety once. That team lost the game by one point and they actualy thought the game was tied... it was crazy at the end.

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

You guys are making this way more complicated than it actually is (although no more likely that it ever happened).On a 2-pt conversion or a botched kick, if the defense recovers the ball and they take possession outside of the end zone and then get downed inside the endzone (or fumble out of bounds in the endzone), that would normally be a 2 point safety. In this case it would be scored as a single point safety.

Bingo! Nice job. This is the most probable way that would would ever see this happen. I have actualy called a one point safety once. That team lost the game by one point and they actualy thought the game was tied... it was crazy at the end.

That wouldn't fly in the NFL rules:

As soon as defense gets possession or the kick is blocked or a touchdown is not scored, the try is over.

So once the defense recovers the ball, the try is over. So the part above where the D takes possession outs ide the end zone should be the end of the play.I still think that the only way this would happen is if the D forces a fumble, intentionally, OR kicks/bats an existing fumble into their own end zone and recovers it there. They CANNOT recover it outside of the end zone and then take it back to their own end zone, as the play would be dead at the spot of the recovery.

 

[AB in DC]

Here's a thought -- has a two-point safety ever been scored, along the lines that David describes, on a normal offensive play? I've never seen two points being scored for a team when their offense is on the field.

I have seen some crazy plays on offense, defense, special teams, and change of possession plays. A year or two ago, there was a play where a WR caught a pass and ran along the sideline but fumbled at the 1 yard line but right near the sideline. A defender slid to recover the fumble (which he successfully did) but slid across the endzone line and slide out of bounds after crossing the goalline.The call was a safety for the offense. Unlike interceptions where a defender can be spotted at the spot of the interception even if his momentum carried him into the endzone, there is no such rule forfumble recoveries. So the defense had to run the ball out of the endzone but didn't to avoid a safety and obviously that didn't happen.

OK, I see what you're saying. But this also couldn't happen on a try, since the play is over when the defense takes possession. I've seen MT speculate that batting the ball out of their own end zone is a safety, but I'll have to look this up in my copy of the rulebook over the weekend. I thought that if the offense is the last team to have possession, then a ball rolling out of the end zone is automatically a touchback.

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

Here's a thought -- has a two-point safety ever been scored, along the lines that David describes, on a normal offensive play? I've never seen two points being scored for a team when their offense is on the field.

I have seen some crazy plays on offense, defense, special teams, and change of possession plays. A year or two ago, there was a play where a WR caught a pass and ran along the sideline but fumbled at the 1 yard line but right near the sideline. A defender slid to recover the fumble (which he successfully did) but slid across the endzone line and slide out of bounds after crossing the goalline.The call was a safety for the offense. Unlike interceptions where a defender can be spotted at the spot of the interception even if his momentum carried him into the endzone, there is no such rule forfumble recoveries. So the defense had to run the ball out of the endzone but didn't to avoid a safety and obviously that didn't happen.

OK, I see what you're saying. But this also couldn't happen on a try, since the play is over when the defense takes possession. I've seen MT speculate that batting the ball out of their own end zone is a safety, but I'll have to look this up in my copy of the rulebook over the weekend. I thought that if the offense is the last team to have possession, then a ball rolling out of the end zone is automatically a touchback.

No - recall the Seattle / Dallas game from just a few weeks ago.A team taking over possession in their end zone gets it at the 20 (touchback), because the impetus of the ball from the other team (either a kick or a pass or a fumble) put that ball in the end zone. If the offense puts the ball in their own endzone for any reason, a safety could occur.

 

[GregR_2]

Official rules, Rule 11, Section 4, Article 1:

When an impetus by a team sends the ball in touch behind its own goal , it is a safety if the ball is either:(a) dead in the end zone in its possessionb) out of bounds behind the goal line

Also as MT already stated, as soon as the defense GAINS POSSESSION the PAT try is over.I don't know how this thing got so murky. It's pretty simple. Offense snaps the ball. Somehow the live ball ends up on the ground in the regular field of play. Obviously the defense cannot recover it and gain possession there or the play is immediately dead. So what has to happen is, the defense knocks the ball into their own end zone... that is, by the rule above, they supply the impetus to send the ball into their own end zone. If the ball goes out of bounds, it's a safety by the rule above. If the defense gains possession of the ball in their own endzone, the play immediately is dead as per MT's posted rule, and by the rule above, it is a safety.The offense (the team who snapped the ball on the PAT) cannot give up a safety. As MT said, by rule the defense cannot score on the play. If they did sack the QB for a 99 yard loss, it would just end the play, it would not give them points.

 

[David Yudkin]

Official rules, Rule 11, Section 4, Article 1:

When an impetus by a team sends the ball in touch behind its own goal , it is a safety if the ball is either:

(a) dead in the end zone in its possession;

(b) out of bounds behind the goal line

Also as MT already stated, as soon as the defense GAINS POSSESSION the PAT try is over.I don't know how this thing got so murky. It's pretty simple. Offense snaps the ball. Somehow the live ball ends up on the ground in the regular field of play. Obviously the defense cannot recover it and gain possession there or the play is immediately dead. So what has to happen is, the defense knocks the ball into their own end zone... that is, by the rule above, they supply the impetus to send the ball into their own end zone.

If the ball goes out of bounds, it's a safety by the rule above. If the defense gains possession of the ball in their own endzone, the play immediately is dead as per MT's posted rule, and by the rule above, it is a safety.

The offense (the team who snapped the ball on the PAT) cannot give up a safety. As MT said, by rule the defense cannot score on the play. If they did sack the QB for a 99 yard loss, it would just end the play, it would not give them points.

I still question the bolded part. I can't see how if the defense were to bat the ball into their own end zone, picked it up, and got out of the endzone that it would be a safety. I know that the rule says once they gain possession the play is dead, but that would be nonsensical.It's unclear, but I would think that the defender would have to gain control and be DOWNED in the endzone for it to be a safety.

Otherwise, it would defeat the purpose of trying to gain possession of the ball if at that point the defense by rule had to give up a 1 point safety or a 2 point conversion.

 

[GregR_2]

Official rules, Rule 11, Section 4, Article 1:

When an impetus by a team sends the ball in touch behind its own goal , it is a safety if the ball is either:

(a) dead in the end zone in its possession;

(b) out of bounds behind the goal line

Also as MT already stated, as soon as the defense GAINS POSSESSION the PAT try is over.I don't know how this thing got so murky. It's pretty simple. Offense snaps the ball. Somehow the live ball ends up on the ground in the regular field of play. Obviously the defense cannot recover it and gain possession there or the play is immediately dead. So what has to happen is, the defense knocks the ball into their own end zone... that is, by the rule above, they supply the impetus to send the ball into their own end zone.

If the ball goes out of bounds, it's a safety by the rule above. If the defense gains possession of the ball in their own endzone, the play immediately is dead as per MT's posted rule, and by the rule above, it is a safety.

The offense (the team who snapped the ball on the PAT) cannot give up a safety. As MT said, by rule the defense cannot score on the play. If they did sack the QB for a 99 yard loss, it would just end the play, it would not give them points.

I still question the bolded part. I can't see how if the defense were to bat the ball into their own end zone, picked it up, and got out of the endzone that it would be a safety. I know that the rule says once they gain possession the play is dead, but that would be nonsensical.It's unclear, but I would think that the defender would have to gain control and be DOWNED in the endzone for it to be a safety.

Otherwise, it would defeat the purpose of trying to gain possession of the ball if at that point the defense by rule had to give up a 1 point safety or a 2 point conversion.

The rule says literally, "During a Try the defensive team can never score. When it gains possession, the ball is dead immediately."How is that nonsensical? It's extremely straight forward. Gain possession of the ball and the play is dead. It doesn't say, "Unless the defense is in their endzone in which case they can try to run it out."

Get possession, play is dead right then and there. If the defense batted it back into the end zone it's a safety. If the offense batted it forward it's an unsuccessful try as that would normally be a touchback for the defense.

And the defense had better still fall on it as they only give up 1 point. The alternative is let the offense fall on it and they get 2 points.

 

[ExtraPoint]

GregR seems to understand it correctly. If he's wrong then I guess if a team gets enough penalties on an extra point try, they are better off running backwards and taking a safety than kicking it? That alternative makes no sense. Its the kicking/2pt conv team that must score the safety in the same end zone that would normally award them two points for the try. In other words, if the offense gets what would be a safety or field goal in regulation, its one point. If they get what's a TD in regulation, its two points. The defense cannot possibly score.

 

[David Yudkin]

Official rules, Rule 11, Section 4, Article 1:

When an impetus by a team sends the ball in touch behind its own goal , it is a safety if the ball is either:

(a) dead in the end zone in its possession;

(b) out of bounds behind the goal line

Also as MT already stated, as soon as the defense GAINS POSSESSION the PAT try is over.I don't know how this thing got so murky. It's pretty simple. Offense snaps the ball. Somehow the live ball ends up on the ground in the regular field of play. Obviously the defense cannot recover it and gain possession there or the play is immediately dead. So what has to happen is, the defense knocks the ball into their own end zone... that is, by the rule above, they supply the impetus to send the ball into their own end zone.

If the ball goes out of bounds, it's a safety by the rule above. If the defense gains possession of the ball in their own endzone, the play immediately is dead as per MT's posted rule, and by the rule above, it is a safety.

The offense (the team who snapped the ball on the PAT) cannot give up a safety. As MT said, by rule the defense cannot score on the play. If they did sack the QB for a 99 yard loss, it would just end the play, it would not give them points.

I still question the bolded part. I can't see how if the defense were to bat the ball into their own end zone, picked it up, and got out of the endzone that it would be a safety. I know that the rule says once they gain possession the play is dead, but that would be nonsensical.It's unclear, but I would think that the defender would have to gain control and be DOWNED in the endzone for it to be a safety.

Otherwise, it would defeat the purpose of trying to gain possession of the ball if at that point the defense by rule had to give up a 1 point safety or a 2 point conversion.

The rule says literally, "During a Try the defensive team can never score. When it gains possession, the ball is dead immediately."How is that nonsensical? It's extremely straight forward. Gain possession of the ball and the play is dead. It doesn't say, "Unless the defense is in their endzone in which case they can try to run it out."

Get possession, play is dead right then and there. If the defense batted it back into the end zone it's a safety. If the offense batted it forward it's an unsuccessful try as that would normally be a touchback for the defense.

And the defense had better still fall on it as they only give up 1 point. The alternative is let the offense fall on it and they get 2 points.

If that's the rule, then if I'm a defender I'm kicking the ball back out of the endzone to make sure neither team picks it up.

 

[GregR_2]

....The rule says literally, "During a Try the defensive team can never score. When it gains possession, the ball is dead immediately."How is that nonsensical? It's extremely straight forward. Gain possession of the ball and the play is dead. It doesn't say, "Unless the defense is in their endzone in which case they can try to run it out."Get possession, play is dead right then and there. If the defense batted it back into the end zone it's a safety. If the offense batted it forward it's an unsuccessful try as that would normally be a touchback for the defense.And the defense had better still fall on it as they only give up 1 point. The alternative is let the offense fall on it and they get 2 points.

If that's the rule, then if I'm a defender I'm kicking the ball back out of the endzone to make sure neither team picks it up.

Wow is this getting complicated. I'm not entirely sure on this, but, it seems in this case these two rules would come into play:

(a) If a player of the team which intercepts, catches, or recovers the ball commits a foul in the end zone, it may be a safety.and:Article 2: It is a safety when the offense commits a foul (anywhere) and the spot of enforcement is behind its own goal line.

I note that "offense" is defined in the NFL rulebook to mean the team in possession of the ball. Ok, if I'm interpreting this right... should you kick or bat the ball out of the end zone, well if it's deemed as not deliberate you're fine of course. If it's deemed as deliberate it is a penalty, however. Which if your team then recovered the ball, it seems you would be the offense and it would still be a safety since the spot of enforcement would be the end zone. But if you kick the ball out and let the other team recover and you tackle them short of the goal, then they'd get the penalty and retry the PAT.I'm not at all sure on that, but those seem like the relevant rules. Someone get Pereira to join the Shark Pool.

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

It. Has. Never. Happened.

I doubt it ever will.

The scenarios are more complicated than trying to get Belichick in a tux.

 

[AB in DC]

Here's a thought -- has a two-point safety ever been scored, along the lines that David describes, on a normal offensive play? I've never seen two points being scored for a team when their offense is on the field.

I have seen some crazy plays on offense, defense, special teams, and change of possession plays. A year or two ago, there was a play where a WR caught a pass and ran along the sideline but fumbled at the 1 yard line but right near the sideline. A defender slid to recover the fumble (which he successfully did) but slid across the endzone line and slide out of bounds after crossing the goalline.The call was a safety for the offense. Unlike interceptions where a defender can be spotted at the spot of the interception even if his momentum carried him into the endzone, there is no such rule forfumble recoveries. So the defense had to run the ball out of the endzone but didn't to avoid a safety and obviously that didn't happen.

OK, I see what you're saying. But this also couldn't happen on a try, since the play is over when the defense takes possession. I've seen MT speculate that batting the ball out of their own end zone is a safety, but I'll have to look this up in my copy of the rulebook over the weekend. I thought that if the offense is the last team to have possession, then a ball rolling out of the end zone is automatically a touchback.

No - recall the Seattle / Dallas game from just a few weeks ago.A team taking over possession in their end zone gets it at the 20 (touchback), because the impetus of the ball from the other team (either a kick or a pass or a fumble) put that ball in the end zone. If the offense puts the ball in their own endzone for any reason, a safety could occur.

Yes, but we're talking about an offense putting the ball in the other team's end zone, not theirs.

 

[AB in DC]

Official rules, Rule 11, Section 4, Article 1:

When an impetus by a team sends the ball in touch behind its own goal , it is a safety if the ball is either:

(a) dead in the end zone in its possession;

(b) out of bounds behind the goal line

Also as MT already stated, as soon as the defense GAINS POSSESSION the PAT try is over.I don't know how this thing got so murky. It's pretty simple. Offense snaps the ball. Somehow the live ball ends up on the ground in the regular field of play. Obviously the defense cannot recover it and gain possession there or the play is immediately dead. So what has to happen is, the defense knocks the ball into their own end zone... that is, by the rule above, they supply the impetus to send the ball into their own end zone.

Thank you, GregR. This is exactly what I was looking for. The "impetus" langauge is what makes this possible.