Patriots stealing signals? (1 Viewer)

[dudaman]

So teams have 40 seconds between plays - from what I can see;

* People rise up from the scrum, takes about - what - 10 seconds to return to the huddle?

* The QB is telling the team the play with about 20-25 seconds left on the 40 second clock.

This means that the booth would have to steal the play/sign and get it to the QB within about a 10 second window? Am I oversimplifying? If this is physically possible, that's pretty amazing.

 

[bostonfred]

Huh, I guess there is something to the paranoia. Watching the Pack/Eagles game yesterday, they frequently showed the Eagles' defensive coordinator with two guys literally standing in front of him with towels held up to cover his face when he was giving signals. I kept wondering why he couldn’t just hold up his own clipboard in front of his face, but whatever works I guess…

Wait a minute. You're not implying that this kind of thing has been going on for years, are you? That kind of reckless accusation is a slap in the face to people who want Belichick suspended for life, the Pats to lose a first round pick, and the game to be forfeited.

 

[Kit Fisto]

- Why is signal stealing even illegal?

It's not. But using a videocamera to capture it is.

 

[Ray]

I remember Don Banks writing an article about sign stealing this summer - Specifically mentioning the videocamera thing and how the league has cracked down on it.

FWIW Here it is

from the banks article:

...reminding them that it was illegal for an advance scout or personnel official to bring a video recording device of any kind into the press box for the purposes of taping a potential opponent's signals or play-calling gestures from the sideline.

I wonder if the rule specifically states "press box?" If so, they are probably in the clear on this, right?

 

[SpecOpLoad]

 

[MDSkinner]

Interesting

Especially that part about it not being the first time.

So you think this played any role in New England's AWESOME pass protection against the Jets.

While I completely agree with you on this point, there is a chance that signal stealing could help the pass protection.If the offensive lineman know where the stunts/bltizes are coming from and know how they need to block the opposing players prior to the snap, it certainly could make their job a great deal easier. It seemed clear in this game that the Pats were just that much better, and that signal calling is not the issue, but a person could certainly make the argument that it "could" make a huge difference.

 

[Workhorse]

Does this remind anyone of the tempest in a teapot that was the whole Colts controversy about "piped in noise" at the RCA Dome?

 

[code]

This should be fun

 

[g5jamz]

Are these the same Jets that brought Reche Caldwell in for a debriefing before the game?

Were they retaliating for the Patriots bringing in Tim Dwight?http://jets.scout.com/2/677190.html

 

[IvanKaramazov]

- Why is signal stealing even illegal?

Good question. I hate NE as much as the next guy, but I have a hard time getting upset over something like this.

 

[greenline]

- Why is signal stealing even illegal?

Good question. I hate NE as much as the next guy, but I have a hard time getting upset over something like this.

Well, I'm the next guy and I love them so...

 

[AB in DC]

ESPN.com (especially Mort) does not have a good record lately on being accurate about what "sources said".

 

[ack34]

I had an archenemy once. I put an open bottle of SoCo on the floor of his car in the backseat. Then called the police after he left the party about an erratic driver and the plates and make of his car.

It was a hell of a lot less expensive and time consuming than all this crap.

 

[Kit Fisto]

Does this remind anyone of the tempest in a teapot that was the whole Colts controversy about "piped in noise" at the RCA Dome?

Or the Patriots watering their field down?

 

[LBH]

Im looking forward to seeing what the investigation discovers. How high of a draft pick would the Pats have to give up if they are found to be guilty of these allegations? Could the game be forfeited?

 

[GregR_2]

But Artrell Hawkins' (just cut be the Pats) day long interview with the Jets brass last week is OK?

I assume you're just fishing, but in the event you actually are being sincere...Most people would recognize a big difference between:

A) Hiring an employee with knowledge of a competitor, or of asking someone not affiliated with the competitor anymore about the competitor.

B) Conducting electronic surveillance of the competitor.

The former is pretty standard fare in any business endeavor. The latter would get you sent to jail in most settings.

 

[jonessed]

Im looking forward to seeing what the investigation discovers. How high of a draft pick would the Pats have to give up if they are found to be guilty of these allegations? Could the game be forfeited?

I seriously doubt it. The response would be the loss of draft picks.

 

[NoFBinLA]

I cant believe this!! Why would they all of a sudden get punished now, when it was swept under the rug the 1st time? I think that NE will get away with this one too.

It's apparently the same cameraman as well. Must be a big Pats fan.

Maybe it's a big misunderstanding, and he's just a Jets fan who loves watching coaches.

I'm a Jets fan. I love my team.They flat out got their butss kicked.If BB sent someone to steal the Jets signs.... he should burn the tape and call it a mistake. Whatever they were calling sure as heck didn't work.

 

[hellz_fireflies]

They been doing this for years taping coaches at games..why you think they place the clipboards closed to their face's..killing flys?

 

[JMJ]

Here is a direct quote from Kerry Rhodes after the game. He was on to something and didn't even know it:

The Jets mixed blitzes and coverage, but it was no use. Brady got a lot of use out of his new toy, Moss, who scorched the secondary (mostly David Barrett) for nine catches and 183 yards, including a 51-yard TD. Five different Patriots scored touchdowns. "(Brady) seemed like he knew what we were doing," safety Kerry Rhodes said. "Whether it was a blitz or coverage, he made all the right checks. I guess we have to do a better job of disguising our looks."

Also, Brady HAS TO BE in on it. The Pats wouldn't go through the trouble of cheating just so he can change the perfect play they called at the line. That would defeat the purpose. Brady must be a cheater also. He is checking in and out of things based on knowing what is coming.He cheated on his ex-girlfriend .....

 

[Kit Fisto]

Here is a direct quote from Kerry Rhodes after the game. He was on to something and didn't even know it:

The Jets mixed blitzes and coverage, but it was no use. Brady got a lot of use out of his new toy, Moss, who scorched the secondary (mostly David Barrett) for nine catches and 183 yards, including a 51-yard TD. Five different Patriots scored touchdowns. "(Brady) seemed like he knew what we were doing," safety Kerry Rhodes said. "Whether it was a blitz or coverage, he made all the right checks. I guess we have to do a better job of disguising our looks."

Also, Brady HAS TO BE in on it. The Pats wouldn't go through the trouble of cheating just so he can change the perfect play they called at the line. That would defeat the purpose. Brady must be a cheater also. He is checking in and out of things based on knowing what is coming.He cheated on his ex-girlfriend .....

Either that, or he's really, really good.

 

[JMJ]

Here is a direct quote from Kerry Rhodes after the game. He was on to something and didn't even know it:

The Jets mixed blitzes and coverage, but it was no use. Brady got a lot of use out of his new toy, Moss, who scorched the secondary (mostly David Barrett) for nine catches and 183 yards, including a 51-yard TD. Five different Patriots scored touchdowns. "(Brady) seemed like he knew what we were doing," safety Kerry Rhodes said. "Whether it was a blitz or coverage, he made all the right checks. I guess we have to do a better job of disguising our looks."

Also, Brady HAS TO BE in on it. The Pats wouldn't go through the trouble of cheating just so he can change the perfect play they called at the line. That would defeat the purpose. Brady must be a cheater also. He is checking in and out of things based on knowing what is coming.He cheated on his ex-girlfriend .....

Either that, or he's really, really good.

Either that, or you're a Patriots fan.

 

[intrinsic]

He cheated on his ex-girlfriend .....

 

[AB in DC]

Also, Brady HAS TO BE in on it. The Pats wouldn't go through the trouble of cheating just so he can change the perfect play they called at the line. That would defeat the purpose. Brady must be a cheater also. He is checking in and out of things

There is absolutely no way to get that kind of information to Brady while he's at the line. The radio is turned off as soon as they break the huddle.But feel free to continue with your

 

[Shrek]

Not a surprise at all. I think BB pushes the envelope as far as possible.

Now the only thing to do is sit back and wait for all the New England apologists to come in and call it sour grapes.

 

[JMJ]

Also, Brady HAS TO BE in on it. The Pats wouldn't go through the trouble of cheating just so he can change the perfect play they called at the line. That would defeat the purpose. Brady must be a cheater also. He is checking in and out of things

There is absolutely no way to get that kind of information to Brady while he's at the line. The radio is turned off as soon as they break the huddle.But feel free to continue with your

Oh I see. So there is no way Brady can look to the sideline to a specific coach while at the line of scrimmage who gives him a specific hand signal to alert him whether or not their is a blitz coming?In turn, knowing a blitz is coming Brady then checks to his TE and RB to stay in and block. Where as on the flip side, no blitz is coming so the TE and RB both go into pass patterns for additional receiving options.Yeah, that could NEEEEEEVER happen.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

No class. None.

No honor. None.

But they win. A lot.

 

[PatsFanCT]

I also heard some sources say Randy Moss was going to be cut before the start of the season.

Just sayin...

 

[Kit Fisto]

Here is a direct quote from Kerry Rhodes after the game. He was on to something and didn't even know it:

The Jets mixed blitzes and coverage, but it was no use. Brady got a lot of use out of his new toy, Moss, who scorched the secondary (mostly David Barrett) for nine catches and 183 yards, including a 51-yard TD. Five different Patriots scored touchdowns. "(Brady) seemed like he knew what we were doing," safety Kerry Rhodes said. "Whether it was a blitz or coverage, he made all the right checks. I guess we have to do a better job of disguising our looks."

Also, Brady HAS TO BE in on it. The Pats wouldn't go through the trouble of cheating just so he can change the perfect play they called at the line. That would defeat the purpose. Brady must be a cheater also. He is checking in and out of things based on knowing what is coming.He cheated on his ex-girlfriend .....

Either that, or he's really, really good.

Either that, or you're a Patriots fan.

Yes! All those times that Brady has escaped pressure or changed coverage to protect for an impending blitz, it was a signal from the sidelines that alerted him! Try not to forget that Brady is not only one of the best QBs of his era, but another ring or two and he might go down as one of the best of all time. Let's give him a little credit to be able to read a defense. Especially yours...

 

[PMENFAN]

I wonder how common this is? If it's very common they are being singled out because of their status.

I've never heard of it with any other team. I don't exactly follow it though. Perhaps someone else can chime in if they know.

I remember a Miami game last year where one of the MIami players said they had purchased just such a tape, and knew all of the line calls, allowing them to dominate the Pats. Since Mangini worked w/ BB just a short time ago, for a long time, I would suspect he knew the tactic? Is it prevalent? Maybe. If it's a rule violation, take the punishment. Kind of like holding. Happens every play, but only a penalty when called.

 

[PMENFAN]

Interesting

Especially that part about it not being the first time.

So you think this played any role in New England's AWESOME pass protection against the Jets.

My guess would be that was the result of a better line against a weak one? I mean, the tape never made it to be analyzed. If true, this would likely be for a future game, not the current one.

 

[1huskerfan]

It's a stupid rule and doesn't belong on any professional level of sports. Stealing signals goes on on much lower levels than the NFL and those amateurs can deal with it. Mix up your signs. Have multiple senders. Have situation specific indicators. Geez, if you can teach this to 12-yr-olds, why can't you teach it to grown 'college educated' men? Lets make the audible and formation shifts illegal while we're at it.

 

[1huskerfan]

Interesting

Especially that part about it not being the first time.

So you think this played any role in New England's AWESOME pass protection against the Jets.

My guess would be that was the result of a better line against a weak one? I mean, the tape never made it to be analyzed. If true, this would likely be for a future game, not the current one.

 

[massraider]

I wonder how common this is? If it's very common they are being singled out because of their status.

I've never heard of it with any other team. I don't exactly follow it though. Perhaps someone else can chime in if they know.

I remember a Miami game last year where one of the MIami players said they had purchased just such a tape, and knew all of the line calls, allowing them to dominate the Pats. Since Mangini worked w/ BB just a short time ago, for a long time, I would suspect he knew the tactic?

Is it prevalent? Maybe. If it's a rule violation, take the punishment. Kind of like holding. Happens every play, but only a penalty when called.

Comparing videotaping defensive signals to holding is sad. All of a sudden, everyone does it? Really?

In that case, we must have previous instances of NFL security catching teams red-handed. Not just rumors that went nowhere, but staff working for the NFL, catching cameramen during the game, breaking the rules.

Frankly, if it's true, it's serious business, and any fan trying to spin this as no big deal is embarrassing himself.

Stealing signals is no big deal? Obviously the coaches think so, that's why they designed the signals rather than just yelling, "Hey, Zach, run the 3-4, and have Taylor stunt over left guard!!"

 

[PMENFAN]

Here is a direct quote from Kerry Rhodes after the game. He was on to something and didn't even know it:

The Jets mixed blitzes and coverage, but it was no use. Brady got a lot of use out of his new toy, Moss, who scorched the secondary (mostly David Barrett) for nine catches and 183 yards, including a 51-yard TD. Five different Patriots scored touchdowns. "(Brady) seemed like he knew what we were doing," safety Kerry Rhodes said. "Whether it was a blitz or coverage, he made all the right checks. I guess we have to do a better job of disguising our looks."

Also, Brady HAS TO BE in on it. The Pats wouldn't go through the trouble of cheating just so he can change the perfect play they called at the line. That would defeat the purpose. Brady must be a cheater also. He is checking in and out of things based on knowing what is coming.He cheated on his ex-girlfriend .....

Okay, so now calling an audible at the line because of the coverage is cheating now? I didn't see the game yet, but the one highlight that I did see was Moss beating triple coverage on his TD. I think most have seen it. So, Brady audibled into triple coverage, just to see if they could beat it? It worked, I hope they stick w/ it.

 

[1huskerfan]

I wonder how common this is? If it's very common they are being singled out because of their status.

I've never heard of it with any other team. I don't exactly follow it though. Perhaps someone else can chime in if they know.

I remember a Miami game last year where one of the MIami players said they had purchased just such a tape, and knew all of the line calls, allowing them to dominate the Pats. Since Mangini worked w/ BB just a short time ago, for a long time, I would suspect he knew the tactic?

Is it prevalent? Maybe. If it's a rule violation, take the punishment. Kind of like holding. Happens every play, but only a penalty when called.

Comparing videotaping defensive signals to holding is sad. All of a sudden, everyone does it? Really?

In that case, we must have previous instances of NFL security catching teams red-handed. Not just rumors that went nowhere, but staff working for the NFL, catching cameramen during the game, breaking the rules.

Frankly, if it's true, it's serious business, and any fan trying to spin this as no big deal is embarrassing himself.

Stealing signals is no big deal? Obviously the coaches think so, that's why they designed the signals rather than just yelling, "Hey, Zach, run the 3-4, and have Taylor stunt over left guard!!"

You should stick to pop warner if you don't know how to disguise your signs, or at the very least, hire someone who knows how. It amazes me that guys can reach this level without being able to do this.

 

[PMENFAN]

Also, Brady HAS TO BE in on it. The Pats wouldn't go through the trouble of cheating just so he can change the perfect play they called at the line. That would defeat the purpose. Brady must be a cheater also. He is checking in and out of things

There is absolutely no way to get that kind of information to Brady while he's at the line. The radio is turned off as soon as they break the huddle.But feel free to continue with your

Oh I see. So there is no way Brady can look to the sideline to a specific coach while at the line of scrimmage who gives him a specific hand signal to alert him whether or not their is a blitz coming?In turn, knowing a blitz is coming Brady then checks to his TE and RB to stay in and block. Where as on the flip side, no blitz is coming so the TE and RB both go into pass patterns for additional receiving options.Yeah, that could NEEEEEEVER happen.

Let's say for an instant that they did. Brady foregoes his time to communicate in the huddle, to pick off the signals. Now, let's just say that Mangini is a brilliant coach as well. Don't you think maybe he'd catch on, and make adjustments at maybe halftime? I think he would. But, the bulk of the domination came in the second half. The Jets were outscored 24-7 after halftime. I'm not saying that signal stealing doesn't happen. If you're going to signal, it's going to be stolen. I'm saying it had nothing to do w/ the game.

 

[massraider]

Also, Brady HAS TO BE in on it. The Pats wouldn't go through the trouble of cheating just so he can change the perfect play they called at the line. That would defeat the purpose. Brady must be a cheater also. He is checking in and out of things

There is absolutely no way to get that kind of information to Brady while he's at the line. The radio is turned off as soon as they break the huddle.But feel free to continue with your

Oh I see. So there is no way Brady can look to the sideline to a specific coach while at the line of scrimmage who gives him a specific hand signal to alert him whether or not their is a blitz coming?In turn, knowing a blitz is coming Brady then checks to his TE and RB to stay in and block. Where as on the flip side, no blitz is coming so the TE and RB both go into pass patterns for additional receiving options.

Yeah, that could NEEEEEEVER happen.

Let's say for an instant that they did. Brady foregoes his time to communicate in the huddle, to pick off the signals. Now, let's just say that Mangini is a brilliant coach as well. Don't you think maybe he'd catch on, and make adjustments at maybe halftime? I think he would. But, the bulk of the domination came in the second half. The Jets were outscored 24-7 after halftime. I'm not saying that signal stealing doesn't happen. If you're going to signal, it's going to be stolen. I'm saying it had nothing to do w/ the game.

Who are you arguing with? Has anyone said the Jets might have lost it because of stolen signals?You are right, it had nothing to do with the game. Can we now move on, and discuss the allegation that this guy has been caught for a 2nd time pulling this stunt?

 

[rascal]

Take away both first rounders. That should send a strong enough message.

 

[massraider]

You should stick to pop warner if you don't know how to disguise your signs, or at the very least, hire someone who knows how. It amazes me that guys can reach this level without being able to do this.

That has absolutely nothing to do with my point. I was pointing out that stealing signals is a serious violation, in response to people that seem to think it can't help the Pats.Disguising signals has nothing to do with what I said.

 

[rascal]

First Harrison and now this...Patriots are a real classy organization.

Before every game opposing teams are going to require their players take a urine test and that all cameras be removed from the stadium. LOL

 

[1huskerfan]

You should stick to pop warner if you don't know how to disguise your signs, or at the very least, hire someone who knows how. It amazes me that guys can reach this level without being able to do this.

That has absolutely nothing to do with my point. I was pointing out that stealing signals is a serious violation, in response to people that seem to think it can't help the Pats.Disguising signals has nothing to do with what I said.

It's really not.

 

[JohnnyU]

They should have been punished for using these eyes here to steal signals in 2006.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

You should stick to pop warner if you don't know how to disguise your signs, or at the very least, hire someone who knows how. It amazes me that guys can reach this level without being able to do this.

That has absolutely nothing to do with my point. I was pointing out that stealing signals is a serious violation, in response to people that seem to think it can't help the Pats.Disguising signals has nothing to do with what I said.

It's really not.

If you are paying someone outside of your own coaching box and not on the sidelines with the players, or the players themselves - to get an advantage - you might as well be paying the refs.You are trying to do it in a way that cannot be monitored and is outside the processs of the game itself. Not only is it terribly bad cheating, its cheating that you are well aware of and are taking measures from outside to get an advantage anyway.

Its as bad food poising the other teams pregame meal or having someone take a led pipe to someones knee at the supermarket.

 

[1huskerfan]

You should stick to pop warner if you don't know how to disguise your signs, or at the very least, hire someone who knows how. It amazes me that guys can reach this level without being able to do this.

That has absolutely nothing to do with my point. I was pointing out that stealing signals is a serious violation, in response to people that seem to think it can't help the Pats.Disguising signals has nothing to do with what I said.

It's really not.

If you are paying someone outside of your own coaching box and not on the sidelines with the players, or the players themselves - to get an advantage - you might as well be paying the refs.You are trying to do it in a way that cannot be monitored and is outside the processs of the game itself. Not only is it terribly bad cheating, its cheating that you are well aware of and are taking measures from outside to get an advantage anyway.

Its as bad food poising the other teams pregame meal or having someone take a led pipe to someones knee at the supermarket.

Huh?

 

[BigSteelThrill]

You should stick to pop warner if you don't know how to disguise your signs, or at the very least, hire someone who knows how. It amazes me that guys can reach this level without being able to do this.

That has absolutely nothing to do with my point. I was pointing out that stealing signals is a serious violation, in response to people that seem to think it can't help the Pats.Disguising signals has nothing to do with what I said.

It's really not.

If you are paying someone outside of your own coaching box and not on the sidelines with the players, or the players themselves - to get an advantage - you might as well be paying the refs.You are trying to do it in a way that cannot be monitored and is outside the processs of the game itself. Not only is it terribly bad cheating, its cheating that you are well aware of and are taking measures from outside to get an advantage anyway.

Its as bad food poising the other teams pregame meal or having someone take a led pipe to someones knee at the supermarket.

Huh?

Thats your retort? Yep. It fits you very well.

 

[TLEF316]

The jets would have lost this game no matter what. The patriots are a tougher, more talented, better coached team. However, if this is true, its still cheating and should be punished (severely, if it is more than a first offense)

Nothing wrong at all with stealing signals. Its part of sports on every level. But using videotape is crossing the line IMO. Any intentional signal interference should result in VERY serious consequences IMO. (forfeiture of first rounders, lengthy coach suspensions, etc)

 

[BigSteelThrill]

The jets would have lost this game no matter what. The patriots are a tougher, more talented, better coached team. However, if this is true, its still cheating and should be punished (severely, if it is more than a first offense)Nothing wrong at all with stealing signals. Its part of sports on every level. But using videotape is crossing the line IMO. Any intentional signal interference should result in VERY serious consequences IMO. (forfeiture of first rounders, lengthy coach suspensions, etc)

All of it.

 

[1huskerfan]

You should stick to pop warner if you don't know how to disguise your signs, or at the very least, hire someone who knows how. It amazes me that guys can reach this level without being able to do this.

That has absolutely nothing to do with my point. I was pointing out that stealing signals is a serious violation, in response to people that seem to think it can't help the Pats.Disguising signals has nothing to do with what I said.

It's really not.

If you are paying someone outside of your own coaching box and not on the sidelines with the players, or the players themselves - to get an advantage - you might as well be paying the refs.You are trying to do it in a way that cannot be monitored and is outside the processs of the game itself. Not only is it terribly bad cheating, its cheating that you are well aware of and are taking measures from outside to get an advantage anyway.

Its as bad food poising the other teams pregame meal or having someone take a led pipe to someones knee at the supermarket.

Huh?

Thats your retort? Yep. It fits you very well.

I am just wondering when you are going to tie this into the JFK conspiracy.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

I am just wondering when you are going to tie this into the JFK conspiracy.

Stay off topic all you want. Heres hoping it makes you feel better.