medstudent
Footballguy
Not sure what your criteria is for a mobile quarterback but I think Ryan Tannehill is in the same class as Smith and Rodgers in running ability.
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Patriots the Greatest Dynasty in NFL History? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Warhogs
- Start date
Niles Standish
Footballguy
I assume you're a Packers fan. Do you really feel as much appreciation for a championship in the 30s as you do for the one with Rodgers a few years ago or the one with Favre in 96? I'm assuming you're not old enough to have watched the 30s championships. If so, that's weird to me. Having watched championships and heard/read/even watched replays of older championships the ones that I actually got to witness in real time felt much more fun to me. I'd assume that's the case with most of the forum but maybe I'm wrong.Sabertooth said:
Sabertooth
Footballguy
I appreciate the history of the game. I'm into history. Love watching WW2 documentaries, stuff about Charlemagne, you name it. It's fascinating. These teams are all a part of history. You want to read a cool book. Read When Pride Still Mattered. It's a bio on Vince Lombardi. So interesting.
To be honest when the Packers have won the Super Bowl, it was cool for a couple days and then it was more like "now lets see if we can keep it rolling."
The glory of the game is fleeting. The afterglow fades. But the history books are always there.
I'm pretty sure I was at that game. Ha.
I also recall for many years not being able to watch them on tv due the blackout rules. The kids in New England under the age of 25 have been spoiled with all of the championships between the Pats, Red Sox, Bruins and Celtics. Crazy.
DropKick
Footballguy
Almost half of the Packers' "championships" were prior to the NFL color barrier being broken. Think about that. And you think this league is "watered down"?
That was an era when the virtually no one outside the Bears, Packers, Giants and Redskins won a championship for 20 years (17 of 20). What an era of parity!
The Patriots scored as many Touch Downs in OT of SB51 as the 1929 Dayton Triangles scored all season (and they only played road games). Read it twice but its true. All of three teams in the league were above .500 that season
The AFL was launched in 1960 and didn't merge with the NFL until 1970, although they started SBs in 1966. The Colts (68) and Vikings are considered NFL Champions but not WORLD CHAMPIONS since they lost the SB.
So, NE and GB have been in competition for a World Championship since 1966 with the Patriots holding a 5-4 edge.
No one every said it was EASY to win.. Just a lot easier than it is today.
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Sabertooth
Footballguy
So what? Look you are going to frame the argument so your team comes out on top. I am going to do the same for mine. It's all good. There is no logical argument either way unless the Pats win 8 more to the Packers winning zero more. Then we can talk logic.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
pats3in4
Footballguy
Like DW said, they are at least in the discussion. Personally, IDGAF. I can't believe this franchise that I watched (when they weren't blacked out) in the late Raymond Berry-, then Rod Rust/**** MacPherson years has brought home the title 5 times and started every game in the Tom Brady era in contention for a title.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Tale of the Tape in the Salary Cap Era . . .
Wins, Losses, Win%, Points For, Points Against, Point Differential, Playoff Appearances. SB Wins, SB Losses. Conference Finals Appearances
Wins, Losses, Win%, Points For, Points Against, Point Differential, Playoff Appearances. SB Wins, SB Losses. Conference Finals Appearances
Code:
Team W L % PF PA PD Post SB W SB L Conf
NEP 255 113 0.693 9477 7003 2474 18 5 3 12
GBP 236.5 131.5 0.643 9434 7457 1977 18 2 1 7
PIT 232.5 135.5 0.632 8277 6684 1593 15 2 2 9
DEN 224 144 0.609 9032 7827 1205 12 3 1 5
IND 221 147 0.601 8898 8144 754 16 1 1 5
PHI 201 167 0.546 8272 7635 637 12 0 1 5
DAL 199 169 0.541 8180 7592 588 11 1 0 2
BAL 181.5 154.5 0.54 7152 6376 776 10 2 0 4
SEA 198.5 169.5 0.539 8178 7539 639 12 1 2 3
MIN 195.5 172.5 0.531 8483 8159 324 11 0 0 3
KCC 192 176 0.522 8086 7732 354 9 0 0 0
NYG 191.5 176.5 0.52 7792 7802 -10 9 2 1 3
SFO 190.5 177.5 0.518 8082 7894 188 10 1 1 5
MIA 186 182 0.505 7561 7528 33 9 0 0 0
ATL 185.5 182.5 0.504 8123 8369 -246 9 0 2 4
SDC 181 187 0.492 8367 8102 265 8 0 1 2
CAR 172.5 179.5 0.491 7369 7389 -20 7 0 2 4
TEN 179 189 0.486 7762 8116 -354 6 0 1 2
NOS 178 190 0.484 8589 8647 -58 6 1 0 2
NYJ 171 197 0.465 7289 7682 -393 7 0 0 3
CHI 171 197 0.465 7269 7866 -597 5 0 1 2
TBB 169 199 0.459 6981 7496 -515 7 1 0 2
BUF 166 202 0.451 7457 8024 -567 4 0 0 0
CIN 163.5 204.5 0.444 7592 8348 -756 7 0 0 0
HOU 106 134 0.442 4890 5395 -505 4 0 0 0
JAX 155 197 0.44 7084 7646 -562 6 0 0 2
ARI 159.5 208.5 0.433 7217 8565 -1348 5 0 1 2
WAS 158 210 0.429 7446 8165 -719 5 0 0 0
OAK 152 216 0.413 7521 8623 -1102 4 0 1 2
LAR 150.5 217.5 0.409 7490 8678 -1188 5 1 1 2
DET 142 226 0.386 7614 8771 -1157 7 0 0 0
CLE 104 216 0.325 5455 7165 -1710 2 0 0 0
Casting Couch
Footballguy
Not a Pats fan, but this IS the BOTTOM line.DropKick said:
Enjoy these days, as you will probably never see sustained greatness on the level of Belichick and Brady ever again.
DropKick
Footballguy
There are tons of logical arguments which would go over your head. I told you I was a Dolphins fan.... do you actually read the posts?
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
Yeah my buddy who is a Giants fan is always yammering on about the Giants pre Super Bowl championships.DropKick said:
everytime I tell him: We don't count rings when the brothers weren't allowed to play.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
They don't go over my head. I choose not to value them. Just like you choose not to value my logical arguments which paint the Packers as far superior.
Boston
Footballguy
I don't think the youngsters can truly appreciate how bad/what a comedy of errors this franchise was pre-Kraft/Parcells...by the way...**** McPherson always seemed like the nicest guy...was like having Father Flanagan as a Coach...actually, I believe his Brother was a Priest...I think that was a story they wrote about once a week...it's what you do when you're losing games 40-14 on a weekly basis...
I remember those seasons.
It was so bad, that I remember somebody on ESPN predicting that the Patriots would reach the super bowl at the beginning of the season. To me, that was as big as actually winning the super bowl.
People also forget that this same fanbase or a good chunk of us that have been around a bit longer also suffered through the ball going through Buckner's legs in the '86 World Series.
Fan base for the most part is super spoiled now. They've experienced no pain.
Pipes
Footballguy
I'm going to say no. Yes what they've done is amazing and I respect the hell out of them. I think the salary cap argument hurts them. Before the cap there was multiple great teams to go up against. In the 70's the Steelers had the Dolphins and Raiders to go up against then the Cowboys to deal with...all great teams. In the 80's the 49ers had the Giants, Redskins and the Bears to a lesser extent to contend with. The 90's it was the Cowboys, 49ers and Packers ...Broncos had a nice run there as well.
I think not having a great rival hurts the Patriots argument just a little. There is so much parity and the league is watered down now. That doesn't mean they aren't a great team...they are...maybe the best ever. I just think the Patriots could use another great team to battle year in and year out to help make that claim.
I think not having a great rival hurts the Patriots argument just a little. There is so much parity and the league is watered down now. That doesn't mean they aren't a great team...they are...maybe the best ever. I just think the Patriots could use another great team to battle year in and year out to help make that claim.
I think you are almost making an argument for them. The fact that pre-salary cap there were always multiple great teams and now under the salary cap there isn't underscores how impressive their run has been.
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Pipes
Footballguy
My point is it's difficult to measure their true greatest in a watered down NFL. I think the salary cap argument is a little overstated when you have the best QB ever with his longevity to boot. Credit to the Patriots for making it happen and I'm not taking anything away from them. The Patriots are near or at the top of the list I just wish they had some great teams to consistently compete against to give us some memorable epic battles like the 49ers/Cowboys of the 90s or Raiders/Steelers of the 70's.
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
Road Warriors
Footballguy
I had this conversation with my 18 & 14 year old sons. They truly don't understand what it was to be a fan of Boston sports from the mid 70s on ( Celtics aside ) - that's as far back as I can remember experiencing. I still have a tiny bit of the "when is the crushing blow coming?" mentality, and never feel fully comfortable before any big game regarding Boston sports, but the past 15 years has certainly softened those edges quite a bit.kyoun1e said:
jabarony
Footballguy
Well, the Red Wings have had an incredible run, so there's that. Always a nice buffer between 5-11 seasons.
DropKick
Footballguy
I understand the pride you take in their past success. I still boast about winning 9 of the first 10 Championships in my family fantasy league. It's been tougher sledding since we expanded beyond two teams but no one is going to match that mark anytime soon!
DropKick
Footballguy
Really? Manning vs Brady? The Colts/Patriots were a huge rivalry that morphed into Broncos/Patriots. They also have a healthy rivalry against the Ravens and Steelers. Throw in the Giants and the fact that Eli is Peyton's brother. Controversy with the Jets has gone on for decades with players and coaches moving both ways. Give them credit for staying on top while other teams come and go.
I don't think the cap is overrated. Teams have success and guys want to get paid. Leads to tough personnel decisions. Coaches want to get paid or take jobs with more responsibility. A couple years of success and teams usually get cherry picked.
Pipes
Footballguy
Colts had Manning and little else. None of these other teams you describe equal the rivalries of the 70s, 80s and 90s. It's not the Patriots fault there's a lot of mediocrity in today's NFL. I am giving the Patriots credit they are a great franchise and maybe the best ever but I just don't agree with those are saying the Patriots are the best without a doubt. I'm just taking a slight contrarian view as this thread appears to be a Patriots circle jerk.
Manning and little else? Pretty sure the Colts will induct more players from that era into the HoF than the Pats will.
jabarony
Footballguy
I tend to think of dynasties as dominance over 4-5 years like the Steelers or Cowboys. Using that definition, I'll give a NO to the Pats. For as good as they've been, other than the 18-1 year, they weren't a destructive force. Just look at their Superbowl win margins.
If you define it as sustained success over long periods like the Spurs or Red Wings (which also don't fit into the aforementioned definition ), then YES, Pats are easily #1.
The only minor things against the Pats these 15 years (and let me stress minor, because I don't want any sensitive NE homers crying for 6 pages) is their division has be absolute trash a majority of their run. Playoff berths, home field, etc. Are a lot easier when you are spotted 5-6 wins each year. That's about the only negative. Yep. Can't think of anything else untoward...
If you define it as sustained success over long periods like the Spurs or Red Wings (which also don't fit into the aforementioned definition ), then YES, Pats are easily #1.
The only minor things against the Pats these 15 years (and let me stress minor, because I don't want any sensitive NE homers crying for 6 pages) is their division has be absolute trash a majority of their run. Playoff berths, home field, etc. Are a lot easier when you are spotted 5-6 wins each year. That's about the only negative. Yep. Can't think of anything else untoward...
JohnnyU
Footballguy
According to Jason La Canfora of CBS Sports, there is a "growing sense" the Patriots could see a "significant exodus of coaching and front-office talent" this offseason.
The Patriots have had a subpar year, at least by their usual standards, and seem to be nearing the end of their decades-long dynasty. With concerns over the team's future including owner Robert Kraft's diminishing role in day-to-day operations, coaches and execs could be eager to move on before the Patriots begin their inevitable rebuild. One league executive who spoke to La Canfora remarked, "This is the time to get out, and those guys know it." OC Josh McDaniels, who has been reluctant to leave the safety net of Foxboro in years past, could be more amenable to outside opportunities this year while LBs coach/de-facto DC Brian Flores may also entertain offers to go elsewhere. With Tom Brady finally showing signs of decline and Rob Gronkowski looking like a shell of his former, pre-injury self, New England's days of being an AFC powerhouse could be coming to an abrupt end.
The Patriots have had a subpar year, at least by their usual standards, and seem to be nearing the end of their decades-long dynasty. With concerns over the team's future including owner Robert Kraft's diminishing role in day-to-day operations, coaches and execs could be eager to move on before the Patriots begin their inevitable rebuild. One league executive who spoke to La Canfora remarked, "This is the time to get out, and those guys know it." OC Josh McDaniels, who has been reluctant to leave the safety net of Foxboro in years past, could be more amenable to outside opportunities this year while LBs coach/de-facto DC Brian Flores may also entertain offers to go elsewhere. With Tom Brady finally showing signs of decline and Rob Gronkowski looking like a shell of his former, pre-injury self, New England's days of being an AFC powerhouse could be coming to an abrupt end.
