Larrywarren
Footballguy
Panthers may be happier to get a 2nd round pick from an AFC team rather than a 1st from an NFC Rival - New England have the 34 overall pick in any event from the Cassell trade so the Panthers may be ok taking that.
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Peppers to the Patriots for a 2nd round pick? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter tdmills
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David Yudkin
Footballguy
The reason why Carolina will have a tough time dealing Peppers is he's going to be paid $16.68 million this year. That's a lot of money for one player that's not a QB (heck, that's a lot even for a QB).
As of right now, NE could not make this deal as they don't have the cap space. NE is approximately $7.8 million under the cap as of today. So they need to clear $8.8 million of cap space to be able to do this. And that would leave them nothing to sign any rookies.
They will need to get busy restructuring, extending, and renegotiating deals for this trade to happen.
As of right now, NE could not make this deal as they don't have the cap space. NE is approximately $7.8 million under the cap as of today. So they need to clear $8.8 million of cap space to be able to do this. And that would leave them nothing to sign any rookies.
They will need to get busy restructuring, extending, and renegotiating deals for this trade to happen.
A new contract would have to get done. The franchise tender on Peppers is $16.7M. If the Pats couldn't afford Cassel at $14M, they can't afford Peppers at the franchise number.
tombonneau
Footballguy
I don't get it.
So Belichick is colluding with Pioli & the Chiefs to screw the Pats out of market value for Cassel/Vrabel, then is separately colluding with the Panthers front office to steal Peppers for below-market value? And what exactly is the secret in all this collusion? It seems like everything is out in the open.I'm honestly very curious to hear the explanation.
It's pretty well known within the NFL circles that Peppers isn't an elite talent. Most teams are not doubling him. Elite DE's demand double teams. Most of the Panthers opponents only used one lineman to account for Peppers. I wish we could get more for him, but I suspect a second and something along the lines of a fifth is all that the market will bear given his salary requirements.
Brady signed his deal 4 years ago.Even when he restructured 2 years ago it didn't change any money, it just changed the way it was paid out so the Pats could save money on the cap.
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
Clearly, I am farther away from "within NFL circles" than I ever thought I possibly could be. My circle might as well be on Jupiter.If he is not an elite talent, then why in the world would anyone be willing to pay him $16M per season? Why would Carolina franchise him at this crazy number?
Workhorse
Footballguy
I keep seeing this $16 million figure for Peppers and I'm not sure where it comes from. I thought that the franchise tender for DEs was just under $9 million? What am I missing?
Adebisi
Footballguy
Yeah, I'm not really sure what he's getting at here either.I don't get it.So Belichick is colluding with Pioli & the Chiefs to screw the Pats out of market value for Cassel/Vrabel, then is separately colluding with the Panthers front office to steal Peppers for below-market value? And what exactly is the secret in all this collusion? It seems like everything is out in the open.I'm honestly very curious to hear the explanation.
Carver
Footballguy
They have even less than 7.8 after signing Wright and Galloway. Pretty sure it's closer to $5.5 right now.
drfeelgood
Footballguy
I don't believe that.
mozzy84
Footballguy
The Tag pays either the average of the top 5 at the position or 120% over the players previous year, whichever is greater. Peppers salary cap number last year was 13.9M and like the 5th most expensive in the league. The other four were Manning, Brady, Palmer and Aaron Rodgers.
He has elite natural ability and can make spectacular athletic plays. I shouldn't have said he's not an elite talent, I should have said he's not an elite player. He's worth more than a late third compensatory pick so the panthers rolled the dice by tagging him hoping to work out a trade. It definately won't be good if the plan blows up and the Cats are stuck paying him $16 mill as it would decimate the franchise.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
i don't see belichick blinking in a game of chicken, & coughing up a 1st if he doesn't have to... i think most assume CAR can't keep franchising peppers (it goes up, 20% next season?)... so he could wait & get peppers for nothing next year, likely... as david typically germanely & saliently noted, trade options are very limited when trying to deal one of the most expensive players in the league... better for CAR to get a 2nd than nothing...just to interject & put in my 2 cents on whether peppers is an elite talent or not...
i would say he is an elite physical specimen & talent... it hasn't always seemed to translate to HoF type numbers... he has had a few mediocre years, & some very good ones... that is a real head scratcher given his ability & talent, & at times has made me question his passion & desire... it seems like he SHOULD be better...
so there is a disconnect there... but make no mistake, just on pedigree & potential, he will command a massive salary if he hits the open market...
if i were a GM, mario williams would be the only DE i would definitely takle over him... i'd probably take jared allen on effort, but he has the scary off field trouble history... imo, freeney, at his best was more one dimensional & a pure pass rusher, seemingly very disinterested & ineffectual in run support (albeit, a good fit in the dungy scheme, & did what they asked him to do), & he has been on the way down for a few years (& look at what he made... one of the highest paid defenders in NFL history... again, for IND, they sort of needed to do that, but that contract is more inexplicable to me than one that would make peppers one of the highest paid defenders in league history)...
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nxmehta
Footballguy
Amazing if the Pats can pull this off, but I don't see how they can afford Peppers? Would they be able to restructure his contract after the trade (i.e. are teams allowed to trade for players that put them over the cap)?
And to the guy who said Peppers isn't elite... you're telling me a guy who is being paid $16M and netted 14.5 sacks last year (5th in the NFL) isn't elite? Because he doesn't command double teams? WTF? If teams are never doubling a guy who averages a sack a game, that doesn't strike me as smart. It's similarly as dumb to pay a guy that much if he's not elite. Huge mistake on Carolina's part then you'd say? However you slice it, that statement makes no sense.
And to the guy who said Peppers isn't elite... you're telling me a guy who is being paid $16M and netted 14.5 sacks last year (5th in the NFL) isn't elite? Because he doesn't command double teams? WTF? If teams are never doubling a guy who averages a sack a game, that doesn't strike me as smart. It's similarly as dumb to pay a guy that much if he's not elite. Huge mistake on Carolina's part then you'd say? However you slice it, that statement makes no sense.
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David Yudkin
Footballguy
Didn't realize that Wright and Galloway hadn't been factored in yet . . . so even more to the point that the Pats could not possibibly be in position to consummate this trade, as they HAVE to be under the cap WITH Peppers cap number at the time of the trade.
Playoff game....Defense T-A SCK INT FF C. Harris 10-0 0.0 0 0 T. Davis 9-1 0.0 0 0 J. Beason 6-2 0.0 1 0 C. Godfrey 6-1 0.0 0 0 M. Kemoeatu 5-0 0.0 0 0 K. Lucas 5-1 0.0 0 0 T. Brayton 3-1 0.0 0 0 N. Diggs 2-2 0.0 0 0 C. Gamble 2-2 0.0 0 0 C. Johnson 2-0 0.0 0 0 D. Lewis 2-0 1.0 0 0 R. Marshall 2-0 0.0 0 0 J. Peppers 2-0 0.0 0 0 N. Hayden 1-0 0.0 0 0 Here's the Denver game where they used one lineman against him...and yes, he did play.Defense T-A SCK INT FF J. Beason 9-1 0.0 0 0 C. Gamble 6-1 0.0 1 0 T. Brayton 5-0 1.0 0 0 R. Marshall 5-0 0.0 0 0 T. Davis 4-0 1.0 0 0 C. Godfrey 4-0 0.0 0 1 C. Harris 3-0 0.0 0 0 C. Johnson 3-0 1.0 0 0 K. Lucas 3-0 0.0 0 0 D. Lewis 2-0 0.0 0 0 N. Diggs 1-0 0.0 0 0 M. Kemoeatu 1-0 0.0 0 0
Carver
Footballguy
I think it will definitely factor into the decision (Sey's injury history). The front office and coaching staff will likely take a long hard look at how "motivated" he played after his last payday. As for Peppers, I can see them using him in all kinds of different packages. My guess is that you'd see him playing up and with a hand down, similar to the way they used Willie McGinnist. You're right though, the ways in which they could utilize his size/skills are plentiful.good points, though i wonder if seymour's recent injury history will impact on belichick's decision to keep him or not... & what kind of salary he could command? at least peppers seems to be a bit cleaner in his recent medical history... but i agree with everything you said about seymour being a stud, & the greatest 3-4 DL of his generation...* BTW, i see some speculation that peppers might play LB? its possible on a limited basis... he is athletic enough to do that (sheesh, he is probably athletic enough to play NT & than CB on some snaps!
drfeelgood
Footballguy
And? I don't believe that "It's pretty well known within the NFL circles that Peppers isn't an elite talent."
Carver
Footballguy
Yeah... number wise (at the moment) it looks extremely unlikely.
PatsWillWin
Footballguy
So by "well known in NFL circles" you mean "hey look at me copy and paste stats from two games?"
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
So does that mean the other owners can vote to overturn it? Because that would be swell.The word that comes to mind RE: the Patriots is "collusion".
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Because everyone knows that every elite player puts up elite numbers in every game. Especially defensive linemen, which is why they all end the year with 48+ sacks. If you'd like, we could sit here and list dozens of games from every elite player in the league that's been around as long as Peppers were they put up pedestrian or poor numbers.
National analysts that have been interview on local radio. One in particular that I remember discussing how Arizona personal had commented to him that they had seen the Denver tape and didn't feel the need to game plan around Peppers. Denver sinlge covered him with what they considered an average lineman. They also mentioned that Arizona was shocked that Carolina basically made no adjustments at halftime of the Arizona game.Another interview, I believe this was with Lombardi but I'm not sure, stated that Peppers play didn't warrant the type of money he would seeking.
Chunky Soup
Footballguy
Not possible. They acquired Greg Lewis.
Buffaloes
Footballguy
Who considers Ryan Clady to be an average lineman? Sure, he was a rookie but he still gave up less than 1 sack last year, if I remember correctly.
I've watch about every snap over the last several years. It's not just about the stats. The guys disappears in games at times for long stretches. Reminds me of Vince Carter. I have no problem with pedestrain numbers if you are disprupting the play or garnering double coverage. Certain players impact the game when they aren't having big number days, Peppers is not one of those players. I will admit that he's a head scratcher. One play he'll be chasing down a RB 30 yards down field and the next Jeff Garcia or the like will be driving him backwards into the endzone.That being said, I could see him being very successful numberwise on a defensive that has other talent that has to be accounted for.
bostonfred
Footballguy
No way the Patriots are giving up that pick. Early second rounders are worth more than early first rounders.
Ron_Mexico
I Love Doggies
huh ?I believe you will see the 34th pick go to Carolina.Call me insane, but I think early 1st round picks are more valuable than early 2nds.
Sweetness_34
Footballguy
Highly doubt the Panthers will be able to get any more than a 2nd rounder since Peppers will cost a lot of $/salary cap impact.
The Great Snook
Footballguy
It all depends on your definition of valuable. Many teams do not believe they get their money's worth out of early 1st round picks and are much better off getting a slightly lesser talent for considerably less cap space.
Carver
Footballguy
The higher pick is still more valuable in that you can trade out of it for multiple later round picks.
David Yudkin
Footballguy
I think this may have been true 5-10 years ago but the climate has changed. You need a trading partner to want to move up and take on a $50 million contract for an unproven player, shelling out $20+ million up front on a big gamble. Many teams have revised their thinking on wanting to jump up to the top of the class. I can't remember the last time a team moved multiple first and second round picks picks to move up into the Top 5.
metoo
Footballguy
I agree with Bass. I've seen plenty of Panther games the last few years and I think Peppers is overrated here. He's not the same player he was in his rookie year for whatever reason. Maybe things will be different in NE but at this time I can't put him in Freeney or Allen category. I love my Tarheels but Peppers has been disappointing to me.
twitch
Footballguy
Why in the world is Vic Carucci breaking this story now? If it suppposely isnt even going down for a month? I just dont get that. Doesnt sound like its even close to being consumated or even financially possible. Very, very perplexing story. I like it. I like the sounds of adding Peppers to the team. Im just not understanding the #s at this stage.
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Carver
Footballguy
Whoa...lol Slow down Dave. I never said multiple first and second round picks.There will always be a team willing to move up a few spots to get their guy for a swap of firsts and an additional later round and/or future pick.
For instance... let's say the Jags REALLY wanted to make sure they get Crabtree. You don't think they would be willing to work out a deal with say Seattle??
Carver
Footballguy
I’m with you on this. I think Vic got a little to ahead of himself here. While the Pats could be working on a deal for Peppers, lots of work needs to be done before this thing is even close to becoming a reality. They would have to make several significant cuts, restructurings, and/or trades just to get into position to make the numbers work. And they have to do all this, while still figuring out how they are going to handle the Wilfork situation. Me thinks Vic has been watching a little too much ESPN. He probably should have waited a bit on this one.
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FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Maybe not into the top 5, but lots of teams still move around in the 1st, and what we're talking here is about the #22 pick, not a top 5 pick.Back around 22 and that general vicinity, there has been tons of trade activity the last few years.In 2008, teams traded up to picks 17, 18, 19, and 25.In 2007, teams traded up to picks 14, 21, 22 and 36.
Carver
Footballguy
The Pats and Carolina talking is not what is being reported. The report is that the Patriots are working on a deal for Peppers. That doesn’t necessarily mean they are in negotiations with the Panthers, they could just be talking to Peppers and his agent (which is fair game).In the end, Carolina would be lucky to get the #34 overall for him as their backs are kind of against the wall.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
doesn't exactly fit the criteria, but giants gave up a lot to swap rivers for manning, WITHIN the top 5 (?)... that was a pretty blockbuster trade... you are right, though, these are very rare... i agree exactly with what you said about the terrible risk in drafting a player like, oh, jamarcus russell... whiff on it, & it can set a franchise back for half a decade (maybe russell will be OK, but maybe he won't, & that is sort of the point)...* i forgot, but SUPPOSEDLY, the rams had multiple offers for the 1.2 in 2008 (from saints & ravens... forget who the ravens would have wanted, saints thought to be after dorsey, supposedly best DT prospect in a decade since sapp, far from playing like it for KC, but it is VERY early on that score)... that may have been a case when a deal didn't get done, because they thought there were about a half dozen, blue chip, elite prospects in the draft class, & they would have had to drop down too far, outside of that realm... plus they really liked chris long, not just for his playing ability & HoF pedigree, but the value his character & intangibles will hold down the road for a rebuilding team...its funny to me to think that the saints gave up their entire draft to get ricky williams... even funnier (sadder, more tragic?) that the bengals got first crack & TURNED DOWN the offer that i think WAS accepted (still got champ bailey with THEIR 1st?)... without looking it up, i think CIN took the immortal kijana carter with that pick (talk about a missed opportunity, & systemic organizational failure)?
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Moonlight_Graham
Footballguy
....because they can't draft one? ETA: I hope they do sign peppers, he's overrated for sure. I believe someone said Lombardi said his play didn't justify his salary?
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Donnybrook
Footballguy
First, Jared Allen cost the Vikes a 1st rounder and two 3rd rounders. Second, Jared Allen is without a doubt the best DE in the league.
Carver
Footballguy
That organization is just awful.
Avery
Footballguy
X 3I get to/have to watch a lot of the Panthers being in NC and Peppers, although an elite physical specimen, doesn't put out consistent effort from play to play and from game to game. Don't get me wrong. He's a steal for a 2nd round pick and he may well find the motivation playing for Bellichek but the truth is over the past few years he plays, well, a bit soft.
