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Peppers to the Patriots for a 2nd round pick? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter tdmills
- Start date
stewartcjae
Footballguy
Season Team G GS Total Solo Ast Sck SFTY PDef Int Yds Avg Lng TDs FUM Lost
2008 Minnesota Vikings 16 16 54 41 13 14.5 2 3 -- -- 0.0 -- -- -- --
2007 Kansas City Chiefs 14 14 64 55 9 15.5 0 10 -- -- 0.0 -- -- -- --
2006 Kansas City Chiefs 16 16 77 65 12 7.5 -- 10 1 3 3.0 3 0 1 1
2005 Kansas City Chiefs 16 15 55 48 7 11.0 -- 5 -- -- 0.0 -- -- -- --
2004 Kansas City Chiefs 15 10 31 29 2 9.0 -- 0 -- -- 0.0 -- -- -- --
TOTAL 281 238 43 57.5 2 28 1 3 -- 3 0 1 1
Season Team
G GS Total Solo Ast Sck SFTY PDef Int Yds Avg Lng TDs FUM Lost
2008 Carolina Panthers 16 16 51 40 11 14.5 -- 5 -- -- 0.0 -- -- -- --
2007 Carolina Panthers 14 14 38 30 8 2.5 -- 5 1 0 0.0 0 0 -- --
2006 Carolina Panthers 16 16 57 48 9 13.0 -- 6 -- -- 0.0 -- -- -- --
2005 Carolina Panthers 16 16 50 38 12 10.5 -- 6 -- -- 0.0 -- -- -- --
2004 Carolina Panthers 16 16 64 52 12 11.0 0 7 2 143 71.5 97 1 -- --
2003 Carolina Panthers 16 16 44 37 7 7.0 -- 3 -- -- 0.0 -- -- -- --
2002 Carolina Panthers 12 12 35 28 7 12.0 -- 4 1 21 21.0 21 0 -- --
TOTAL 339 273 66 70.5 0 36 4 164 -- 97 1 0 0
Seems very comparable in terms of production
Avery
Footballguy
Seems boarderline unreadable...But assuming what we have above is stats that indicate that Peppers' production is somewhat equitable to Allen's in terms of tackles, sacks etc... this is one of those places where you have to look beyond the numbers.
Peppers had played on a very good defensive line where he has often been left one on one with the opposing offensive tackle while Allen has been stuck in KC where he was often double teamed (and I'd bet even triple teamed) as he was the player for the opposing team to account for and stop. I know all we have is stats for direct comparison but I think their situations are a little bit of comparing apples to oranges.
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Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
You guys are reading way too much into what I'm saying. I'm just saying it's weird is all. I'm not seriously insinuating that there's some grand conspiracy.Yeah, I'm not really sure what he's getting at here either.I don't get it.So Belichick is colluding with Pioli & the Chiefs to screw the Pats out of market value for Cassel/Vrabel, then is separately colluding with the Panthers front office to steal Peppers for below-market value? And what exactly is the secret in all this collusion? It seems like everything is out in the open.I'm honestly very curious to hear the explanation.
stewartcjae
Footballguy
Sorry looked all pretty when I pasted it
But ya you got the general idea. I believe Allen is better, just not sure a 1st and 2 3rds vs. a 2nd round only. Good deal for the pat's if it holds up imo.
PatsWillWin
Footballguy
Upon further review, I don't see how this trade is remotely possible for the Patriots to pull off.
Nigel
Footballguy
Adam Shefter just said on WEEI that he is 99.99% sure this deal will not happen.
PatsWillWin
Footballguy
Yeah I listened to Shefter on the way in. He is what snapped me out of it. He made a lot of sense.
- Peppers has not signed his franchise contract, therefore it's against the rules for the Patriots and Panthers to be talking compensation
- Patriots really don't have the cap space, and Peppers (Shefter's guess) would be looking at more than $75 million/6 years with $35 million or so in guarantees. I don't know how they could swing that.
On the ESPN evening show, the Lou & Mike show, they had a Carolina sports radio talk show guy on yesterday, he was singing a different tune. He didn't seem to have any inside information on any kind of trade talks, but what he did say was interesting:
- Peppers is not the kind of guy who needs to chase every dime. He's a private guy, and does not do any kind of endorsement deals or anything, which, obviously, is leaving a lot of money on the table.
- He "loves the game," but at the same time, he will probably only play about 4 more years - he's not the kind of guy who lives for football and will hang around for too long once he descends into mediocrity.
- He's really sick of playing in Carolina - he's played all of his football since high school in the same 80 mile area (or maybe 180 miles, forget), and he does not really want to be the "face" of the franchise - he just wants to be one of the guys, and with all the stars in New England, it seems like a good fit.
- He definitely doesn't want to play with his hand on the ground anymore.
Those all are pretty good reasons why NE might work out, but again, there can't be any official discussions between CAR and NE for trade compensation right now, and I still think the Patriots are too tight on cap space to get this done. Unless they get Brady/Moss/Seymour to restructure, which I guess is possible.
- Peppers has not signed his franchise contract, therefore it's against the rules for the Patriots and Panthers to be talking compensation
- Patriots really don't have the cap space, and Peppers (Shefter's guess) would be looking at more than $75 million/6 years with $35 million or so in guarantees. I don't know how they could swing that.
On the ESPN evening show, the Lou & Mike show, they had a Carolina sports radio talk show guy on yesterday, he was singing a different tune. He didn't seem to have any inside information on any kind of trade talks, but what he did say was interesting:
- Peppers is not the kind of guy who needs to chase every dime. He's a private guy, and does not do any kind of endorsement deals or anything, which, obviously, is leaving a lot of money on the table.
- He "loves the game," but at the same time, he will probably only play about 4 more years - he's not the kind of guy who lives for football and will hang around for too long once he descends into mediocrity.
- He's really sick of playing in Carolina - he's played all of his football since high school in the same 80 mile area (or maybe 180 miles, forget), and he does not really want to be the "face" of the franchise - he just wants to be one of the guys, and with all the stars in New England, it seems like a good fit.
- He definitely doesn't want to play with his hand on the ground anymore.
Those all are pretty good reasons why NE might work out, but again, there can't be any official discussions between CAR and NE for trade compensation right now, and I still think the Patriots are too tight on cap space to get this done. Unless they get Brady/Moss/Seymour to restructure, which I guess is possible.
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Carver
Footballguy
Why would NE ever want/need to take cap lessons from the Washington Redskins?
twitch
Footballguy
I generally fall in line with Schefter. He's normally the most informed guy in the business. So, I'll buy what he's selling here as well. Having said that, I find it strange that 2 writers from NFL.com could have such differing opinions and/or sources. Im also surprised to hear Schefter sort of throw Carucci somewhat under the bus here, by pretty much calling 'BS' on him by labeling it a 99.99% non-story. Wonder how Carucci feels about that. Imo, its somewhat irresponsible of Schefter to throw out such an absolution. He's well informed, but that man certainly isnt all knowing.
bcr8f
Footballguy
Of course. Why did so many buy into this BS? It's probably agents leaking garbage.
ScottyFargo
Footballguy
This is something that was out there the whole time but it got lost in all the drooling.
twitch
Footballguy
The two teams cant talk. But under the franchise tag guidelines, Peppers and his agent can talk to any and all teams. Carolina's people have basically confirmed that the two teams arent talking.
This is something that was out there the whole time but it got lost in all the drooling.
PatsWillWin
Footballguy
It's certainly a significant reason to believe that there's no deal "in place," but I also don't think it alone is enough to completely debunk everything. There are ways around this, or ways to break it in secret...Peppers signing the contract is merely a formality anyways.Also worth noting that it is not against the rules for Bus Cook to talk contract with the Patriots, and I'm guessing it might not be against the rules for Cook to talk to the Patriots about what they might give up, and maaaaybe sorta talk to the Panthers and find out what they'd want, etc.
This is something that was out there the whole time but it got lost in all the drooling.
I think the biggest reason why this won't happen is the cap figures, not this rule, though again, it certainly is a factor.
Carver
Footballguy
Yeah, but that doesnt mean that NE wasn't trying to work on a deal with Peppers and his agent, they very well could have been. What really got lost is the fact that NE would need to be almost 17M under the cap to even make this deal a possibility. They are currently only about 5.5M under not including the estimated cost of signing their draft picks.
This is something that was out there the whole time but it got lost in all the drooling.
ScottyFargo
Footballguy
So compensation in the terms of picks wouldn't be discussed, just contracts. So the whole idea of 2nd round pick has always been idle speculation. Meanwhile I do like what NE has done this offseason with shoring up their D. This move would get it noticed, making it rise up from a sleeper D/ST to possibly one targetted earlier. That wouldn't make me happy.The two teams cant talk. But under the franchise tag guidelines, Peppers and his agent can talk to any and all teams. Carolina's people have basically confirmed that the two teams arent talking.
This is something that was out there the whole time but it got lost in all the drooling.
twitch
Footballguy
On the compensation question, I dont have that specific information. I only know the two teams cant discuss any of the above. But I dont know why an agent and a team cant discuss what it may take to get a deal done. I dont see Carucci reporting that without some basis. But again, not real sure. Now, I also dont know the specifics with regards to NE talking to Peppers' agent, then him taking that information to the Panthers and sharing that information. Dont know if thats considered circumvention. It would seem to be. But just dont know for certain.So compensation in the terms of picks wouldn't be discussed, just contracts. So the whole idea of 2nd round pick has always been idle speculation. Meanwhile I do like what NE has done this offseason with shoring up their D. This move would get it noticed, making it rise up from a sleeper D/ST to possibly one targetted earlier. That wouldn't make me happy.The two teams cant talk. But under the franchise tag guidelines, Peppers and his agent can talk to any and all teams. Carolina's people have basically confirmed that the two teams arent talking.
This is something that was out there the whole time but it got lost in all the drooling.
Something's obviously been discussed between the agent and NE, that must is certain imo. Now, Carolina may just be lobbying for better compensation if theyve been made aware what NE would potentially be offering. They certainly have plenty of ammo. But my guess would be that Peppers' may just not be willing to take the typical NE discount to play there. He probably wouldnt mind being a Pat. But not for, as an example, the $3mil Moss was willing to accept to fit in. A big contract would surprise me. Interesting.
munchkin
Footballguy
HAPPY ST PATRICK'S DAY!!
Thank you Adam Schefter for bringing such good news on a day when Red Sox fans are in a funk over Pedroia's sprained pinky, J D Drew's annual injury cop out and Lugo's availability to strike out in the nine hole. The Patriots don't need a player who complains about playing DE for sixteen million dollars a year. Belichick doesn't need to bring in a player who KNOWS how best he can be used. Let Foxy deal with this one on his own.
Thank you Adam Schefter for bringing such good news on a day when Red Sox fans are in a funk over Pedroia's sprained pinky, J D Drew's annual injury cop out and Lugo's availability to strike out in the nine hole. The Patriots don't need a player who complains about playing DE for sixteen million dollars a year. Belichick doesn't need to bring in a player who KNOWS how best he can be used. Let Foxy deal with this one on his own.
Carver
Footballguy
ScottyFargo
Footballguy
I agree with him. Peppers is a legitimately franchised player who holds value if the team keeps him, very unlike Cassel who was franchised for the sole reason of trying to get anything for him rather than letting him walk for free.This isright?
Ron_Mexico
I Love Doggies
Teams covet high 2nd round picks becausethey don't get killed with the structured contractsI agree with him. Peppers is a legitimately franchised player who holds value if the team keeps him, very unlike Cassel who was franchised for the sole reason of trying to get anything for him rather than letting him walk for free.This isright?
of 1st round picks.
There is a sea change in the NFL.
If Peppers goes to NE for the 34th pick, it won't surprise me at all.
Just conjecture on my part, but I think they are working on a re-structuring of
Peppers' contract with NE to finalize this one.
PatsWillWin
Footballguy
Can't trade these picks.
Buffaloes
Footballguy
I don't think teams can trade comp picks
pantherclub
Footballguy
The key fact in this whole equation to me is that Carolina offered him a contract that would have made him the highest paid DE ever and Peppers turned it down. Now it is almost written in stone that neither the panthers or any other team is going to offer that again. That is the whole wild card in this situation. Did Peppers lose out on a ton of money due to a bluff or does he really not give a crap about being extremely wealthy. We will never know
Carver
Footballguy
Carolina can not financially afford to keep him if he is unwilling to work out a long term deal with them. I mean they can... but it would pretty much cripple their ability to sign FA in other areas of need. Peppers is a weight around their ankle right now. They would be lucky to get the #34 overall for him.I agree with him. Peppers is a legitimately franchised player who holds value if the team keeps him, very unlike Cassel who was franchised for the sole reason of trying to get anything for him rather than letting him walk for free.This isright?
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BigJim®
Footballguy
Not at all. Don't get me wrong... kudos to New England if they can get a young franchised-caliber defensive end for the cost of a 2nd round rookie prospect. Maybe I'm oversimplifying, but the question that comes to mind is whether the Panthers could hope to draft someone of Pepper's caliber/production with that pick. To me the answer here is an emphatic no. I just can't imagine that is Peppers' value to Carolina, and it seems to me Carolina would have placed a different tag on Peppers if they were willing to part with him for a 2nd; all they did is make him more expensive to themselves by designating him a franchise player. I've seen at least one person in this thread say that Jared Allen is superior to Peppers and I happen to agree with that, but nevertheless that trade is the best benchmark I can think of for a Peppers deal.This is
twitch
Footballguy
He was the 2nd overall, and he's been fairly well paid now for what, 7 or 8 years? Im thinking he's extremely wealthy already. I think he just wants to play somewhere else. Not necessarily NE. I originally felt either Dallas or Miami would be his calling. But it sounds like he just wants out. Like he's determined to be a 'backer. And I admire that about the guy. It was mentioned before that Peppers' value to Carolina right now is too high to be moved for just a 2nd. And Id agree. Considering specifically what Jared Allen drew last year, he should go for more. But the $17mil counters that value to a degree. Carolina frees up that $17mil, and they have flexibility. But as it is, I dont see them doing much right now.
Chicago Hooligan
Footballguy
He must know that OLBs make less than DEs...?
Maybe a contract like Suggs's, which paid a % based on the number of snaps he lined up at each position.
Maybe a contract like Suggs's, which paid a % based on the number of snaps he lined up at each position.
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Chase Stuart
Footballguy
Jared Allen signed a 6 year, $73 million contract. That was certainly factored into what the Vikings would trade for him.twitch said:
massraider
Footballguy
I wonder if Peppers will wind up getting what he wants.If I am a coach of a 3-4 team, do I want to make him my highest paid defender, then move him to OLB? A position change? Not sure I'd be willing to do that.
Buffaloes
Footballguy
I'll add to that the draft pick that will be traded away too. There is too much risk involved in trading forhim and moving him to OLB.
Ron_Mexico
I Love Doggies
Peppers trade to Pats NOT LIKELY....
Citing two sources, NBCSports' Tom Curran reports that Panthers franchise player Julius Peppers is "virtually certain" to not be traded to the Patriots.
Curran confirms that New England is on Peppers' wish list, but calls Adam Schefter right to say the deal is "not gonna happen." The trade makes sense on paper; Peppers wants out of Carolina and New England is desperate for pass rush help. But the cap ramifications would be difficult for the Pats to endure and Peppers has never played in a 3-4 defense. Committing upwards of $75M to a player totally new to their scheme would be a colossal risk.
Citing two sources, NBCSports' Tom Curran reports that Panthers franchise player Julius Peppers is "virtually certain" to not be traded to the Patriots.
Curran confirms that New England is on Peppers' wish list, but calls Adam Schefter right to say the deal is "not gonna happen." The trade makes sense on paper; Peppers wants out of Carolina and New England is desperate for pass rush help. But the cap ramifications would be difficult for the Pats to endure and Peppers has never played in a 3-4 defense. Committing upwards of $75M to a player totally new to their scheme would be a colossal risk.
cstu
Footballguy
OLB is actually the most important position in a 3-4 besides DT.
Adebisi
Footballguy
I'm not sure I'm buying that. It would seem that either of the DEs would be more important than any of the LBs. And it would seem that the ILBs might be even more important than the OLBs.
massraider
Footballguy
No, I am wondering how many teams think it's a good move to take a 4-3 defensive end, at his age, and change his position.
womb
Footballguy
Unless Panthers are dead sure that they will retain Peppers or that the only way they will build this year is through draft, they are playing with fire. If I am not mistaken, they have almost no room to make a play in free agency.
This makes me wonder if Pats saw the cap situation with all teams and settled for #34 just because it was completed very fast and they went ahead to nab the guys they wanted. Sounds far fetched, but again what does BB do with his time other than analyze finances and read scouting reports at this point?
This makes me wonder if Pats saw the cap situation with all teams and settled for #34 just because it was completed very fast and they went ahead to nab the guys they wanted. Sounds far fetched, but again what does BB do with his time other than analyze finances and read scouting reports at this point?
encaitar
Footballguy
You might find some teams that covet 2nd round picks over top 10 picks because of the contracts involved, but you aren't going to find many who would rather have the 34th pick in the draft versus the 22nd. Late first round picks are very highly sought after, much moreso than early second round picks. If that weren't the case then you wouldn't see teams trading their early second and next year's first to move into the late first round.Ron_Mexico said:Teams covet high 2nd round picks becausethey don't get killed with the structured contractsScottyFargo said:I agree with him. Peppers is a legitimately franchised player who holds value if the team keeps him, very unlike Cassel who was franchised for the sole reason of trying to get anything for him rather than letting him walk for free.Carver said:This isBigJim® said:
of 1st round picks.
There is a sea change in the NFL.
If Peppers goes to NE for the 34th pick, it won't surprise me at all.
Just conjecture on my part, but I think they are working on a re-structuring of
Peppers' contract with NE to finalize this one.
pantherclub
Footballguy
Maybe I am just naive or just play too much FF but a deal involving Cutler for Peppers would just make too much sense for both parties. Delhommes days are certainly numbered and a franchise QB would be an awesome building block.BassNBrew said:
a) What would you do with Delhomme? Might as well cut him because you don't just move the starter that took you to 12 win season to the bench.b) Now what are you going to do on defensvie line? You get no other players or draft picks. The offensive better be good because the defense is going to be horrible. Don't count on a bunch of cap relief because you will have to sign Cutler to a new deal.Culter for Peppers makes you marginally better at QB this year and is a huge downgrade on the DL. The panthers aren't in rebuilding mode.
Moonlight_Graham
Footballguy
Marginally? They are much better with Cutler over Delhomme, not marginally better. I guarantee you Delhomme didn't account for many of those wins (see DeAngelo Williams).
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H.K.
Footballguy
Bass is right.Delhomme is the leader of that team, and his importance in that area is often way overlooked by outsiders.
Also, their numbers last year were similar.
Delhomme
TD% 3.6
Int% 2.9
Y/A 7.9
AY/A 7
Rate 84.7
Cutler
TD% 4.1
Int% 2.9
Y/A 7.3
AY/A 6.4
Rate 86
Cutler had 200 more attempts than Delhomme last year so of course his totals were higher, but remove that from the equation and they weren't far apart at all.
Cutler clearly has more upside and long term potential, but for next season, not sure how much of an upgrade Cutler would be over Jake.
Moonlight_Graham
Footballguy
Oh i don't know...there's this thing about injury risk (Tommy John), age, and play making ability that comes into play. If you think for one second any coach or GM prefers Delhomme over Cutler, then you're badly mistaken IMO. That's for next season, the season after that, or 5 seasons ahead, and that's also by a large margin.
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pantherclub
Footballguy
I may be the extreme pessimist but the Panthers had their shot last year and totally blew it. In the NFL it is extremely hard to put together 2 years like the Panthers just did. A lot of stars aligned perfectly for them and they didnt take the opportunity. All season long the pundits said that Jake was the biggest liability and they were correct. I dont see the running game being as good next year and of course the defense with or without Peppers will not be as good. Add in the schedule and a Atlanta and NO team that appear to be improving as well it adds for a disaster year. I am a huge Jake fan but his best days are way behind him. Leadership or not I seriously doubt he will be the starter in 2010.I really dont think too many Cat fans would be disappointed if they traded for Cutler. Who says he has to start, bring him in and have a competition for the job.
