Pete Rose reinstated off MLB's permanently ineligible list (1 Viewer)

[Eephus]

It will be interesting seeing the voting percentages on their first ballot. 75% requirement I believe?

The reinstated players won't be on the regular BBWAA ballot. Their HoF fates will be determined by a 16 person committee in late 2027. It'll be interesting to see who is named to the election committee.

 

[FarFromHome]

RIP the greatest base hit player in MLB history.

Ichiro

Ted Williams*


*If we don't care about roids, then it's Bonds by a mile.

I wasn't talking about best overall hitter. Best singles hitter. Imo

Rose was a compiler. He was a solid hitter but not close to the best hitter or even singles hitter.

He isn't even in the top 10 of best singles hitter:

1. Willie Keeler - .261 singles per AB
2. Jeter - .241
3. Ichiro - .234
4. Ty Cobb - .233
5. Gwynn - .232
6. Cap Anson - .230
7. Rod Carew - .227
8. Nap Lajoi - .223
9. Eddie Collins - .218
10. Honus Wagner - .206

*I am sure there are a lot more as I only went down the list of players with the most singles in MLB history.

*** Rose was at .202 singles per AB.

I don't care about this thing you call math. Numbers mean nothing. Ha ha. I will say you bringing up numbers is the primary argument for my comment. More base hits then anyone in the universe. Sure he played a long time, but he kept a 303 career batting average.

 

[Don Quixote]

Baseball HoF still has its character clause in effect requiring voters to take character into account. So, while no longer on the permanently ineligible list (which the Baseball HoF board was using as a set rule and a cop out to keep off the ballot and save the writers from making a decision themselves), writers will still need to decide that piece of it.

It may put some pressure on them to take out the character clause. It seems like a lot of writers (at least the ones that I follow on Twitter), would prefer that taken out so they could just vote based on field performance anyway. That would also probably open up more to the steroids era candidates too.

 

[Cowboysfan8]

since those fans may actually lose money based on a "fixed" game.

I’ve felt this way multiple times

 

[Anarchy99]

Baseball HoF still has its character clause in effect requiring voters to take character into account. So, while no longer on the permanently ineligible list (which the Baseball HoF board was using as a set rule and a cop out to keep off the ballot and save the writers from making a decision themselves), writers will still need to decide that piece of it.

It may put some pressure on them to take out the character clause. It seems like a lot of writers (at least the ones that I follow on Twitter), would prefer that taken out so they could just vote based on field performance anyway. That would also probably open up more to the steroids era candidates too.

I believe the Classic Baseball Era Committee (which will be the one determining who makes the ballot and then votes) is usually comprised of former players, executives, and historians. I am not sure how many true "writers" or "regular" media folks will be on that committee. Candidates will need to be on ballots of 12 of the 16 voters to get enshrined. I am guessing there will be a number of hardliners that will just continue carrying the torch of "no gamblers or steroid abusers allowed." All it would take would be 5 such voters to block someone from getting in. My overall point being, it's a different group of voters and a different demographic than the regular induction process.

 

[zamboni]

Baseball HoF still has its character clause in effect requiring voters to take character into account. So, while no longer on the permanently ineligible list (which the Baseball HoF board was using as a set rule and a cop out to keep off the ballot and save the writers from making a decision themselves), writers will still need to decide that piece of it.

It may put some pressure on them to take out the character clause. It seems like a lot of writers (at least the ones that I follow on Twitter), would prefer that taken out so they could just vote based on field performance anyway. That would also probably open up more to the steroids era candidates too.

I believe the Classic Baseball Era Committee (which will be the one determining who makes the ballot and then votes) is usually comprised of former players, executives, and historians. I am not sure how many true "writers" or "regular" media folks will be on that committee. Candidates will need to be on ballots of 12 of the 16 voters to get enshrined. I am guessing there will be a number of hardliners that will just continue carrying the torch of "no gamblers or steroid abusers allowed." All it would take would be 5 such voters to block someone from getting in. My overall point being, it's a different group of voters and a different demographic than the regular induction process.

Based on the bolded, I figured that Rose's ban would eventually be lifted once the BBHOF writer/voter pool turned over. Just didn't think it would happen this soon, although Pete's death clearly seemed to change things.

 

[Don Quixote]

Baseball HoF still has its character clause in effect requiring voters to take character into account. So, while no longer on the permanently ineligible list (which the Baseball HoF board was using as a set rule and a cop out to keep off the ballot and save the writers from making a decision themselves), writers will still need to decide that piece of it.

It may put some pressure on them to take out the character clause. It seems like a lot of writers (at least the ones that I follow on Twitter), would prefer that taken out so they could just vote based on field performance anyway. That would also probably open up more to the steroids era candidates too.

I believe the Classic Baseball Era Committee (which will be the one determining who makes the ballot and then votes) is usually comprised of former players, executives, and historians. I am not sure how many true "writers" or "regular" media folks will be on that committee. Candidates will need to be on ballots of 12 of the 16 voters to get enshrined. I am guessing there will be a number of hardliners that will just continue carrying the torch of "no gamblers or steroid abusers allowed." All it would take would be 5 such voters to block someone from getting in. My overall point being, it's a different group of voters and a different demographic than the regular induction process.

It is a different group of voters, but they also have to consider the character clause when they vote too. For sure, they may interpret it (or apply it) differently from how the baseball writers do in the standard induction process. My point is just that it is still around too.

 

[Anarchy99]

It is a different group of voters, but they also have to consider the character clause when they vote too. For sure, they may interpret it (or apply it) differently from how the baseball writers do in the standard induction process. My point is just that it is still around too.

My guess when they start considering who to put on the Era Committee will be that select enough guys they know will vote no to gamblers and steroid related players in an effort to continue to keep them out. They likely can get whatever outcome they want based on the composition of the voters.

 

[AAABatteries]

I kind of like this.

Keeps the player who broke the big big rules from enjoying their induction and enshrinement and puts a big asterisk next to their for all time, but still provides a path into the Hall for players who are integral to the history of the game.

Kind of my thinking. I would have been ok if they let his accomplishments in but not reward him with the ceremony and bust. This way you can kind of do both - and I don't feel sorry for him. I think if he had owned up to it sooner and not been a dirtbag then they maybe looked the other way while he was still alive.

 

[Corporation]

My memory is there was evidence that Rose bet against his own team. If I was a Hall voter, he still wouldn't get my vote.

nope, never been a thing. The only evidence ever found is that he bet on his team to win.

Thats just as bad IMO. Because what do you have to do to help your team win on a given night? In baseball that probably means your using your best pitchers and therefore excluding them from pitching on another night, which means your team is more likely to lose on that other night.

This is my exact reasoning when I tell other people. You could almost excuse it if he bet on his team to win each and every game. But he didn't, and either consciously or subconsciously, if he had money riding on a game he would be more likely to stress his bullpen to get the win (and then not bet on them to win the next day).

The baseball player, inarguably a first ballot Hall of Famer. The person, super questionable given allegations he seemed to admit to. The manager, IMO, absolutely disqualifies himself from the Hall of Fame because you cannot have the integrity of the game challenged.

 

[SWC]

serious question do people think that gambling can be a medically described addiction take that to the bank brohans

 

[Joe Bryant]

It's an interesting dilemma.

My gut feel is it finally became too much to keep Rose out for gambling while Baseball (and the other sports) have their hands out taking bookoos of money promoting gambling.

And I'm not advocating for him to be in the HOF. What he did was obviously wrong. Full Stop. I just think it's complicated and the pressure got to be a bit too much.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

You could almost excuse it if he bet on his team to win each and every game. But he didn't, and either consciously or subconsciously, if he had money riding on a game he would be more likely to stress his bullpen to get the win (and then not bet on them to win the next day).

This is an extremely important distinction that should be recognized and often isn't. It's how "just betting on his own team" really isn't a valid point.

 

[Zow]

My buddies and I have argued over Pete Rose in the HOF for ages. My contention has always been if you keep Rose out because of improper activity, you may as well kick most of the HOF out. Probably some skeletons in just about everyone’s closet.

Not many broke the primary rule of professional sports.

To be clear, I'm a proponent of Rose getting in so long as the first sentence or two on his busk indicates that he received a lifetime ban for betting on baseball. But what he did compared to others, from a purely sports law standpoint, is much different and more egregious.

I get that, but betting against the game is really only the primary rule of baseball (and other) because that is what the founders decided it should be.

Crimes like beating your spouse or injuring/killing someone, much less cheat in some way like throwing spitballs, using doctored bats, or taking steroids are much more accepted. Just don't bet on the game. I'm exaggerating a bit, but not too much.

And they were absolutely right in doing so. The number one rule of sports law is that the outcome of a game must be unknown. Accordingly, if a player/manager/ref/ump has a gambling interest, such is no longer the case as there is now an external influence on the game's outcome from somebody with the ability to affect the game's outcome.

Now, obviously, in the "real world" this sort of thing pales in comparison to things like domestic violence, etc. But in the world of sports, personal gambling on the games is and should be the cardinal sin.

 

[ChicoCat]

It's not about being a good or bad guy; it's about breaking a rule in MLB that is posted in every clubhouse.

He gambled when it was illegal to gamble. That's a far cry from today. He allowed organized crime to get a toehold into America's Past Time; to potentially compromise the integrity of the game. Plus, he lied about betting on baseball.....and while he says he only bet on his team to win; why do we take that as lock, stock and barrel truth?

I was a kid in the Philly region when he was there. I wore 14 in Little League. I jumped off the dugout roof and onto the field at the Phillies Home Opener in 1983 before the game to look for him. I saw him; yelled out "HEY PETE"! and he gave me a ball, signed my program, laughed and told me "KID, YOU GOT TO GET THE HELL OF THE FIELD!"

He doesn't belong in baseball.

 

[FarFromHome]

I just saw the clip with Pete on Johnny Carson. He made 7000 dollars his rookie year. Won rookie of the year and the following year me made 12500. No wonder he had to gamble. Ha ha

 

[shuke]

Rose was a compiler.

Regardless if you love or hate Pete as a person, I find this argument silly. It's stated in a manner as if it's easily accomplished. I assume since it's so easy to compile 4200 hits, everybody's doing it.

I also don't understand the critique about him not even being the best singles hitter. I guess the doubles hurt is "singles per AB" stat. Guy had a lifetime .300+ BA and .375 OBP.

 

[zamboni]

Rose was a compiler.

Regardless if you love or hate Pete as a person, I find this argument silly. It's stated in a manner as if it's easily accomplished. I assume since it's so easy to compile 4200 hits, everybody's doing it.

I also don't understand the critique about him not even being the best singles hitter. I guess the doubles hurt is "singles per AB" stat. Guy had a lifetime .300+ BA and .375 OBP.

All anyone needs to do is take 5 minutes and stare at his stats to see what kind of hitter he was - power be damned. Unbelievable long term consistency at a very high level.

Pete Rose Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More | Baseball-Reference.com

Check out the latest Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More of Pete Rose. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, bats, throws, school and more on Baseball-reference.com

www.baseball-reference.com

 

[Gally]

I also don't understand the critique about him not even being the best singles hitter. I guess the doubles hurt is "singles per AB" stat. Guy had a lifetime .300+ BA and .375 OBP.

Someone made the statement that he was the best singles hitter. I disagreed because I don't think he was the best hitter. I think he was a very good hitter for a long time. There is value in that. That being said using the fact he has the most hits of all time does not equate to being the best hitter of all time. That is where my statement of him being a compiler stemmed from. That is not the same as saying he was a bad hitter. He was very good.for a long time. Just not the best hitter ever.

 

[FarFromHome]

I also don't understand the critique about him not even being the best singles hitter. I guess the doubles hurt is "singles per AB" stat. Guy had a lifetime .300+ BA and .375 OBP.

Someone made the statement that he was the best singles hitter. I disagreed because I don't think he was the best hitter. I think he was a very good hitter for a long time. There is value in that. That being said using the fact he has the most hits of all time does not equate to being the best hitter of all time. That is where my statement of him being a compiler stemmed from. That is not the same as saying he was a bad hitter. He was very good.for a long time. Just not the best hitter ever.

One of the best things about these boards is that we have people smarter than me making great points. I also absorb info from everyone. Some change my stances on things and some dont. This is one of those that changed my stance. After further review of the greatest singles hitter of all time, I will conclude, that although Pete Rose is still in my top 5, he is not the leader. Lots of competition for that top spot. I just don't know who wears the crown. RIP Mr Hustle.

 

[bryhamm]

It's not about being a good or bad guy; it's about breaking a rule in MLB that is posted in every clubhouse.

He gambled when it was illegal to gamble. That's a far cry from today. He allowed organized crime to get a toehold into America's Past Time; to potentially compromise the integrity of the game. Plus, he lied about betting on baseball.....and while he says he only bet on his team to win; why do we take that as lock, stock and barrel truth?

I was a kid in the Philly region when he was there. I wore 14 in Little League. I jumped off the dugout roof and onto the field at the Phillies Home Opener in 1983 before the game to look for him. I saw him; yelled out "HEY PETE"! and he gave me a ball, signed my program, laughed and told me "KID, YOU GOT TO GET THE HELL OF THE FIELD!"

He doesn't belong in baseball.

He won't be in baseball.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Long overdue.

Not a good human by many accounts, but the Hall of Fame shouldn't be a "good human" contest where writers decide what is moral and what isn't.

It's a shame he wasn't inducted while alive.

No, it is not!

Pete Rose disgraced baseball more than just betting on it and the decades of he spewed that he didn't. We shouldn't forget that his agreement with baseball was also to thwart the investigation into other crimes committed by Rose. That he and his gambling, gym rat buddies all are federal felons. Oh, and the little matter of having 10 to 12 years olds down to Florida for his amusement. Forget all that. Just focus on the cheap shot to Ray Fosse. One that in the 70s was being celebrated as "AL plays baseball, NL plays hardball". What is left out of this is that Rose injured himself on that play, missed games and the Reds finished just outside looking in for the playoffs. Then there was the hit streak. How dare Gene Garber pitch to Rose in that situation! How dare he strike him out and deny Rose history. Then of course there is all time base hit record and the RBI record. Records that Rose pursued by writing his own name into the lineup night after night when there were much better options on a young and talented Reds team. He wrote his name in until he got the hit record. He would have written his name in until he had the RBI record if he wasn't finally shut down.

Rose was famous and celebrated and accumulated lots of numbers and played on a few very good teams. Local boy does good. One of the best interviews of his era. He probably on those accounts belongs in the Hall of Fame, but I'm sorry but it is a blessing to all that is right in this world that this selfish will never see it.

 

[shuke]

Just focus on the cheap shot to Ray Fosse.

Fosse was blocking the plate.

 

[massraider]

Rose the player is first ballot lock. Madness to think otherwise.

Rose post- playing career is first ballot pr*ck. So many awful flaws as a human that he was proud to display, decade after decade.

Rules are rules, so the ban made sense. Rose, of course, could have gotten back in the good graces of the baseball world by admitting, apologizing, and advocating for gambling awareness, or done some other empty gesture that would make the self-important writers forgive him. All he had to do was play the game.
Should he have had to jump thru all the PR hoops that definitely would have gotten him in? Maybe not, but so what? This is the reality, and the Hall is like this for everyone, that is why the roid boys aren't in.
At least the roid boys are quiet about it. It was sad to see Rose out there, lying again and again, doing one dumb morning show after another.

Some people don't get into the Hall till after they die, and it's a wicked ripping shame.

And some people, it's not.