Phenoms going under (2 Viewers)

[ROCKET]

The only solution is to pay a bunch of real life gangsters to visit Dads house and demand the money. Just threaten the breaking of limbs, swimming with the fishes, etc. and tell Dad he has 48 hours to come up with the prize $$ or the kid gets whacked. Pesci, Liotta and Deniro would be good examples of the cast needed.

 

[Grigs Allmoon]

The problem isn't whether it's gambling, it's that these guys requesting chargebacks are the ones who would not have received any money even if phenoms had paid out all prizes. They're lying to the banks to reimburse their losses, they're lying to themselves, engaging in personal attacks on anyone who questions them, and fabricating fantastic analogies that have nothing to do with phenoms so that somehow it's justified. That's why they need a shower.

The problem is that you're still under the delusion that there was money to win.

There was. There was the possibility right up until the bankruptcy filing. That is when the book really closed. No matter how dire the situation may have been leading up to that, there were plenty of ways the business could have been rescued, and the winners could have got their due. Mike just chose the easy way out of the hole he dug with his highly immoral, if not criminal actions.

 

[El If I No]

I'm catching up and in and out of this thread.. feel bad for all affected...

Just wondering, where in this thread is there stuff about calling his dad and family? I at that idea... good for anyone who called.... let this stank hang on mike

Nah, I vote to leave his dad out of it. If he ripped us off, you can be sure he "borrowed" a ton of money from papa. Families tend the be the first victims of scumbags.

At least it would be nice to find out what the family knows about him.

Mike's an adult, over the age of 18. Leave his family out of it. Good Lord, you people are just fools.

If you forgot to pay your electric bill one month would you want them calling your parents threatening them or publishing their information on the internet for all to see?

You can bet his parents probably know about this already being as it's been on USA Today and all...they don't need Billy Joe Jim Bob Moron from Podunk Kentucky calling them and threatening to beat them up because they lost $50 in a fantasy football league. SMDH

Get some perspective, people. And let the blasting begin....

Ahhhhh, but if a family member fails to pay his bill and it goes to a collections agency, THEY call family.

I know first hand as I used to get a call or two a month looking for my deadbeat Sister.

It only stopped when I filed a complaint.

No, I'm not encouraging anyone to call his family, I am just responding "they dont call family" thought process..........

 

[El If I No]

I have to admit that until I saw this thread I had never heard of Phenoms (or any of these other service providers), but if I were in one of those leagues, I would raise hell with my CC company only for the sole reason that it's probably the only realistic chance this guy stands of being harassed and pursued by anybody.

I feel bad for the guys that stood in line to win something. You guys got the shaft, no doubt. You gotta cut bait here though, you ALL got the shaft (everyone that played) and should ALL BE ON THE SAME SIDE HERE! Forget about what's fair, what you think you're entitled to, or what the "right thing" to do is with other people's refunds (if there are any).

Instead of bickering, perhaps some organization and common sense should be applied. People have claimed to have spoken to the local police. I doubt it, but if so; what was their reaction? What are your expectations?

There are already predictions on what the result of the class action lawsuit will bring. How's that going? How many are involved? Any info/experience on monetary thresholds required to actually bring a class action lawsuit (that will get somebody's attention)?

What other actions are being taken?

Unlucky (aka Mike Z) probably reads through this thread a dozen times a day just to see what's going on... and whats going on probably looks to him like a bunch of monkeys trying to #### a football.

I live in Utah and I can tell you that this valley is flooded with con artists, always has been. Big time con's, not some small timer trying to make off with a couple hundred thousand dollars. You might get more mileage out here by exposing Mike as a Democrat than a con. The Attorney General in Utah, yeah... they're quite busy trying to bring the last two (2), TWO Attorney General's to justice on fraud charges (spent $5.5 million and counting so far). Best shot IMO as a trans-planted Utahn are to work the news angles. Salt Lake Tribune may have some interest, and KSL5 may be interested in hearing about a con that appeared on their show (they're owned by the church and might be attracted by the gambling aspect enough to care). Also, Mike appeared on the Bill Gephardt Gets It segment on KSL5... Gephardt is a consumer advocate that makes a living exposing scams. His stamp of approval is highly sought after (by sought after, I mean paid for) by "legitimate" small business' and he might get a charge out of exposing a crook that once appeared on his own show.

you know what, that would be worth the price of admission in some regards......

Someone living in Utah who saw the original deal on TV and signed up for Phenoms after seeing it should call this guy and get this rolling.

That personal "I saw it on one of your segments and decided to give it a try only to get taken" would probably rile this news guy up!

 

[General Tso]

I didn't think long con when I first heard this story, but I do now. The timing of his announcement is What has convinced me. If you were planning a long con this is exactly how you'd do it. You play the regular season out and then fold after the first week of the playoffs. And you do it exactly at that point. Half the contestants don't make the playoffs and won't feel compelled to file a claim. From their standpoint they didn't really lose anything. The other 50% - those that made the playoffs - can't file a claim for lost winnings because the league technically ended prior to things being ultimately decided.

If Mike really cared about his customers he would have let things play out and then announced his inability to pay AFTER everything was settled. He couldn't wait another two weeks??

Well played indeed.

 

[JimmyJabroni]

I didn't think long con when I first heard this story, but I do now. The timing of his announcement is What has convinced me. If you were planning a long con this is exactly how you'd do it. You play the regular season out and then fold after the first week of the playoffs. And you do it exactly at that point. Half the contestants don't make the playoffs and won't feel compelled to file a claim. From their standpoint they didn't really lose anything. The other 50% - those that made the playoffs - can't file a claim for lost winnings because the league technically ended prior to things being ultimately decided.

If Mike really cared about his customers he would have let things play out and then announced his inability to pay AFTER everything was settled. He couldn't wait another two weeks??

Well played indeed.

Yep. Say 70% or so are out of contention, so he figures they get nothing. The other 30% or so are in contention, but didn't get to finish before the anouncement was made, so they can't claim the prize money, but only their entry fee back. So the 30% get their money back, and he keeps that other 70% of the prize pool that should have been paid to the 30% in contention. Sneaky sneaky. But that's why everyone should try to reclaim their fees.

 

[hamhocs]

Might have already been posted, but Mike Z joined some sites over the summer to try to get people to sign up for football leagues. I'm guessing he needed to do this to make the baseball payouts. This screams desperation on his part just to make it to football season and give him time to get out of his hole.

https://www.draftsharks.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=6

 

[JimmyJabroni]

In his original message he says only a portion would be available, 20 - 40%.

So that's exactly what his plan was. At worst, pay back the entry of those in contention, and keep the rest of the prize pool for himself.

 

[fatness]

The problem isn't whether it's gambling, it's that these guys requesting chargebacks are the ones who would not have received any money even if phenoms had paid out all prizes. They're lying to the banks to reimburse their losses, they're lying to themselves, engaging in personal attacks on anyone who questions them, and fabricating fantastic analogies that have nothing to do with phenoms so that somehow it's justified. That's why they need a shower.

The problem is that you're still under the delusion that there was money to win.

There was. There was the possibility right up until the bankruptcy filing. That is when the book really closed. No matter how dire the situation may have been leading up to that, there were plenty of ways the business could have been rescued, and the winners could have got their due. Mike just chose the easy way out of the hole he dug with his highly immoral, if not criminal actions.

"There was"

"There was the possibility"

Nobody can say the first with certainty. The second is only a matter of wishful thinking.

"There were plenty of ways the business could have been rescued"

Again, wishful thinking.

 

[The Duff Man]

Can we also hold the parents of rapists, murderers and muggers responsible for the actions of their adult children and harrass them?

I just want to make sure I keep up with where the mob is going and not get left behind in this land of "accountability" where I currently live.

Thanks in advance...

 

[Max Power]

The only people I sympathize with are the winners of the leagues. Everyone else got what they were promised as far as I can tell.

I didnt play in any Phenoms Leagues this year. But just two questions/scenarios for people who don't think losers should file for reimbursement...

Say guy A enters 5 leagues at $50 a pop. 250 total in. He wins one league that would have paid out over $250. People here feel he should only file for his fees in a single league?

OR... A dynasty player at mid point of the season (still in contention) decides to sell off his players with current value for draft picks or prospects that will improve his team down the road. This trade was obviously made to benefit future years. But without a 2015 season, he was cheated...

 

[CalBear]

[SIZE=13.63636302948px]S[/SIZE]ay you play with one dollar and you win the national lottery. Then it turns out the national lottery is broke and can't pay you. Do you have legal standing to claim your full winnings or just your one dollar back?

Saying everyone is entitled to their money back makes no sense. If you are not owed any money by the Phenom leagues, then you haven't been wronged in any legal way. Phenoms has fulfilled its obligation to you of providing you with a league, platform, etc. The only people who will have legal standing are the ones who are owed something, whether it is prize money or deposits. It's pretty straight-forward, just like with any other scam.

Say you run a private lottery. You advertise $100M in prizes. You take in $100M in cash. One guy finally wins, but you can't pay him because you stole all the money.

Is only that one guy entitled to his dollar back? Is only that one guy wronged?

 

[JimmyJabroni]

[SIZE=13.63636302948px]S[/SIZE]ay you play with one dollar and you win the national lottery. Then it turns out the national lottery is broke and can't pay you. Do you have legal standing to claim your full winnings or just your one dollar back?

Saying everyone is entitled to their money back makes no sense. If you are not owed any money by the Phenom leagues, then you haven't been wronged in any legal way. Phenoms has fulfilled its obligation to you of providing you with a league, platform, etc. The only people who will have legal standing are the ones who are owed something, whether it is prize money or deposits. It's pretty straight-forward, just like with any other scam.

Say you run a private lottery. You advertise $100M in prizes. You take in $100M in cash. One guy finally wins, but you can't pay him because you stole all the money.

Is only that one guy entitled to his dollar back? Is only that one guy wronged?

Advertise $100M in prizes, take in $100M in cash. Before the lottery balls are picked, lottery says they won't be able to pay the prize money because of money issues and they estimates that only 1% will be available. That one guy that wins gets his dollar back and the lottery keeps the rest. I don't see how anyone could argue that only he was wronged, but that is what people in this thread are arguing.

 

[JimmyJabroni]

If you fail to claim back your entry fee or make no effort to attempt to collect it, knowing that no prizes are going to be paid, you are looking the other way while this dude gets away with stealing a large portion of the prize pool.

 

[Yamato]

[SIZE=13.63636302948px]S[/SIZE]ay you play with one dollar and you win the national lottery. Then it turns out the national lottery is broke and can't pay you. Do you have legal standing to claim your full winnings or just your one dollar back?

Saying everyone is entitled to their money back makes no sense. If you are not owed any money by the Phenom leagues, then you haven't been wronged in any legal way. Phenoms has fulfilled its obligation to you of providing you with a league, platform, etc. The only people who will have legal standing are the ones who are owed something, whether it is prize money or deposits. It's pretty straight-forward, just like with any other scam.

Say you run a private lottery. You advertise $100M in prizes. You take in $100M in cash. One guy finally wins, but you can't pay him because you stole all the money.

Is only that one guy entitled to his dollar back? Is only that one guy wronged?

Fantasy football isn't a lottery. Not sure why people don't get that. Most leagues aren't won by luck. They are won with diligence and forsight. Not pulled from a hat.

 

[Grigs Allmoon]

[SIZE=13.63636302948px]S[/SIZE]ay you play with one dollar and you win the national lottery. Then it turns out the national lottery is broke and can't pay you. Do you have legal standing to claim your full winnings or just your one dollar back?

Saying everyone is entitled to their money back makes no sense. If you are not owed any money by the Phenom leagues, then you haven't been wronged in any legal way. Phenoms has fulfilled its obligation to you of providing you with a league, platform, etc. The only people who will have legal standing are the ones who are owed something, whether it is prize money or deposits. It's pretty straight-forward, just like with any other scam.

Say you run a private lottery. You advertise $100M in prizes. You take in $100M in cash. One guy finally wins, but you can't pay him because you stole all the money.

Is only that one guy entitled to his dollar back? Is only that one guy wronged?

Advertise $100M in prizes, take in $100M in cash. Before the lottery balls are picked, lottery says they won't be able to pay the prize money because of money issues and they estimates that only 1% will be available. That one guy that wins gets his dollar back and the lottery keeps the rest. I don't see how anyone could argue that only he was wronged, but that is what people in this thread are arguing.

You are conveniently leaving out one very key detail in your delusion analogy. The lottery balls do end up getting picked. We know who Phenoms, LLC, the corporate entity is indebted to.

 

[JimmyJabroni]

[SIZE=13.63636302948px]S[/SIZE]ay you play with one dollar and you win the national lottery. Then it turns out the national lottery is broke and can't pay you. Do you have legal standing to claim your full winnings or just your one dollar back?

Saying everyone is entitled to their money back makes no sense. If you are not owed any money by the Phenom leagues, then you haven't been wronged in any legal way. Phenoms has fulfilled its obligation to you of providing you with a league, platform, etc. The only people who will have legal standing are the ones who are owed something, whether it is prize money or deposits. It's pretty straight-forward, just like with any other scam.

Say you run a private lottery. You advertise $100M in prizes. You take in $100M in cash. One guy finally wins, but you can't pay him because you stole all the money.

Is only that one guy entitled to his dollar back? Is only that one guy wronged?

Advertise $100M in prizes, take in $100M in cash. Before the lottery balls are picked, lottery says they won't be able to pay the prize money because of money issues and they estimates that only 1% will be available. That one guy that wins gets his dollar back and the lottery keeps the rest. I don't see how anyone could argue that only he was wronged, but that is what people in this thread are arguing.

You are conveniently leaving out one very key detail in your delusion analogy. The lottery balls do end up getting picked. We know who Phenoms, LLC, the corporate entity is indebted to.

They are indebted to everyone because they don't plan to pay any winnings.

 

[Sabertooth]

[SIZE=13.63636302948px]S[/SIZE]ay you play with one dollar and you win the national lottery. Then it turns out the national lottery is broke and can't pay you. Do you have legal standing to claim your full winnings or just your one dollar back?

Saying everyone is entitled to their money back makes no sense. If you are not owed any money by the Phenom leagues, then you haven't been wronged in any legal way. Phenoms has fulfilled its obligation to you of providing you with a league, platform, etc. The only people who will have legal standing are the ones who are owed something, whether it is prize money or deposits. It's pretty straight-forward, just like with any other scam.

Say you run a private lottery. You advertise $100M in prizes. You take in $100M in cash. One guy finally wins, but you can't pay him because you stole all the money.

Is only that one guy entitled to his dollar back? Is only that one guy wronged?

Fantasy football isn't a lottery. Not sure why people don't get that. Most leagues aren't won by luck. They are won with diligence and forsight. Not pulled from a hat.

 

[fatness]

If these were free leagues they should have been advertised that way. Instead, entry fees of $50, $100, $500, $1000, etc. were collected to play in free leagues. Everyone paying was cheated.

 

[JimmyJabroni]

Everyone who played, played with the expectation that winners would get the prize pool...NOT...players in contention would maybe get their money back while the guy collecting the money gets most of the prize pool. If the pool is not being paid to winners, it needs to be distributed back to everyone and not kept by the guy collecting it. This isn't a super hard concept to grasp.

 

[CalBear]

[SIZE=13.63636302948px]S[/SIZE]ay you play with one dollar and you win the national lottery. Then it turns out the national lottery is broke and can't pay you. Do you have legal standing to claim your full winnings or just your one dollar back?

Saying everyone is entitled to their money back makes no sense. If you are not owed any money by the Phenom leagues, then you haven't been wronged in any legal way. Phenoms has fulfilled its obligation to you of providing you with a league, platform, etc. The only people who will have legal standing are the ones who are owed something, whether it is prize money or deposits. It's pretty straight-forward, just like with any other scam.

Say you run a private lottery. You advertise $100M in prizes. You take in $100M in cash. One guy finally wins, but you can't pay him because you stole all the money.

Is only that one guy entitled to his dollar back? Is only that one guy wronged?

Advertise $100M in prizes, take in $100M in cash. Before the lottery balls are picked, lottery says they won't be able to pay the prize money because of money issues and they estimates that only 1% will be available. That one guy that wins gets his dollar back and the lottery keeps the rest. I don't see how anyone could argue that only he was wronged, but that is what people in this thread are arguing.

You are conveniently leaving out one very key detail in your delusion analogy. The lottery balls do end up getting picked. We know who Phenoms, LLC, the corporate entity is indebted to.

It doesn't matter if the lottery balls are picked. If only one guy won, and there's no money to pay him, everyone was wronged whether they won or not.

 

[Sabertooth]

Correct. People paid for the chance to win. They never received what they paid for.

 

[CalBear]

[SIZE=13.63636302948px]S[/SIZE]ay you play with one dollar and you win the national lottery. Then it turns out the national lottery is broke and can't pay you. Do you have legal standing to claim your full winnings or just your one dollar back?

Saying everyone is entitled to their money back makes no sense. If you are not owed any money by the Phenom leagues, then you haven't been wronged in any legal way. Phenoms has fulfilled its obligation to you of providing you with a league, platform, etc. The only people who will have legal standing are the ones who are owed something, whether it is prize money or deposits. It's pretty straight-forward, just like with any other scam.

Say you run a private lottery. You advertise $100M in prizes. You take in $100M in cash. One guy finally wins, but you can't pay him because you stole all the money.

Is only that one guy entitled to his dollar back? Is only that one guy wronged?

Fantasy football isn't a lottery. Not sure why people don't get that. Most leagues aren't won by luck. They are won with diligence and forsight. Not pulled from a hat.

OK, how about a contest which is 100% skill? Let's say, a spelling bee. I advertise it as having $1M in prizes with a $100 entry fee. 10,000 people sign up. I steal the $1M. The best speller wins and I can't pay her. Is only the best speller entitled to recompense?

 

[Craig_MiamiFL]

If you fail to claim back your entry fee or make no effort to attempt to collect it, knowing that no prizes are going to be paid, you are looking the other way while this dude gets away with stealing a large portion of the prize pool.

You're talking to a wall with some folks here.

"Winner" or "loser" are completely irrelevant here. Their was no contest. Do I consider myself a "winner" for being in the finals in both "leagues"? No. We're all losers and victims of a fraudulent venture. Do I expect anyone else in the league falling short of championship, etc.. to send me cash? No. (If they do, great. Not something I'll openly campaign for). Bankruptcy court isn't going to say "Johnny you won League #521, here's the winnings" I don't know how many ways or times this can be stated.

 

[Yamato]

[SIZE=13.63636302948px]S[/SIZE]ay you play with one dollar and you win the national lottery. Then it turns out the national lottery is broke and can't pay you. Do you have legal standing to claim your full winnings or just your one dollar back?

Saying everyone is entitled to their money back makes no sense. If you are not owed any money by the Phenom leagues, then you haven't been wronged in any legal way. Phenoms has fulfilled its obligation to you of providing you with a league, platform, etc. The only people who will have legal standing are the ones who are owed something, whether it is prize money or deposits. It's pretty straight-forward, just like with any other scam.

Say you run a private lottery. You advertise $100M in prizes. You take in $100M in cash. One guy finally wins, but you can't pay him because you stole all the money.

Is only that one guy entitled to his dollar back? Is only that one guy wronged?

Fantasy football isn't a lottery. Not sure why people don't get that. Most leagues aren't won by luck. They are won with diligence and forsight. Not pulled from a hat.

OK, how about a contest which is 100% skill? Let's say, a spelling bee. I advertise it as having $1M in prizes with a $100 entry fee. 10,000 people sign up. I steal the $1M. The best speller wins and I can't pay her. Is only the best speller entitled to recompense?

I think everyone should try to get whatever they can. After Phenoms said they would go the bankruptcy route I can only assume that the 20%-40% that was going to be paid isn't now. You don't have to compare what is going on to anything else. The reality that most of us here are living doesn't need to be compared to anything. I do wish that the people who don't have money in the game not be so vocal of what the players who do are doing. When someone comes out and says they will not be getting $4000 of winnings they earned and doesn't think the people who didn't win should get anything...he has every right to say that. Why attack him when you don't agree? Especially when you haven't even paid in Phenoms. I would love to have a forums page where only paid Phenoms customers could vent and the rest can just read. We really don't need hypothetical here say and flaming going on when we should be helping.

 

[MissionCoach]

Question for the legal eagles.

Does it matter that Phenoms indicated that payouts would be made in "full at the completion of the fantasy season"?

Obviously it is not the end of the "fantasy season" yet.

I'm getting ready to call my CC and file a dispute, just wondering if this was relevant or not.

 

[Yamato]

Question for the legal eagles.

Does it matter that Phenoms indicated that payouts would be made in "full at the completion of the fantasy season"?

Obviously it is not the end of the "fantasy season" yet.

I'm getting ready to call my CC and file a dispute, just wondering if this was relevant or not.

They will probably want anything that is relevant. And that would be. There are link in this thread that go to web pages that Phenoms deleted that might be useful (using a wells fargo/ebay accounts to hold money.

 

[Grigs Allmoon]

[SIZE=13.63636302948px]S[/SIZE]ay you play with one dollar and you win the national lottery. Then it turns out the national lottery is broke and can't pay you. Do you have legal standing to claim your full winnings or just your one dollar back?

Saying everyone is entitled to their money back makes no sense. If you are not owed any money by the Phenom leagues, then you haven't been wronged in any legal way. Phenoms has fulfilled its obligation to you of providing you with a league, platform, etc. The only people who will have legal standing are the ones who are owed something, whether it is prize money or deposits. It's pretty straight-forward, just like with any other scam.

Say you run a private lottery. You advertise $100M in prizes. You take in $100M in cash. One guy finally wins, but you can't pay him because you stole all the money.

Is only that one guy entitled to his dollar back? Is only that one guy wronged?

Advertise $100M in prizes, take in $100M in cash. Before the lottery balls are picked, lottery says they won't be able to pay the prize money because of money issues and they estimates that only 1% will be available. That one guy that wins gets his dollar back and the lottery keeps the rest. I don't see how anyone could argue that only he was wronged, but that is what people in this thread are arguing.

You are conveniently leaving out one very key detail in your delusion analogy. The lottery balls do end up getting picked. We know who Phenoms, LLC, the corporate entity is indebted to.

It doesn't matter if the lottery balls are picked. If only one guy won, and there's no money to pay him, everyone was wronged whether they won or not.

Money on hand makes no difference. In the world of business there is this thing called debt.

 

[Grigs Allmoon]

Everyone who played, played with the expectation that winners would get the prize pool...NOT...players in contention would maybe get their money back while the guy collecting the money gets most of the prize pool. If the pool is not being paid to winners, it needs to be distributed back to everyone and not kept by the guy collecting it. This isn't a super hard concept to grasp.

And then you're going to give it to the rightful owner(s), right?

 

[CalBear]

It doesn't matter if the lottery balls are picked. If only one guy won, and there's no money to pay him, everyone was wronged whether they won or not.

Money on hand makes no difference. In the world of business there is this thing called debt.

That's only a semantic difference; it seems clear that Phenoms has no mechanism available to pay out winners.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Also, FYI, we're getting some traction with the FBI's ic3 division and they're opening a preliminary investigation.

Would love to hear updates about this as they happen.

 

[Zdravko]

[SIZE=13.63636302948px]S[/SIZE]ay you play with one dollar and you win the national lottery. Then it turns out the national lottery is broke and can't pay you. Do you have legal standing to claim your full winnings or just your one dollar back?

Saying everyone is entitled to their money back makes no sense. If you are not owed any money by the Phenom leagues, then you haven't been wronged in any legal way. Phenoms has fulfilled its obligation to you of providing you with a league, platform, etc. The only people who will have legal standing are the ones who are owed something, whether it is prize money or deposits. It's pretty straight-forward, just like with any other scam.

Say you run a private lottery. You advertise $100M in prizes. You take in $100M in cash. One guy finally wins, but you can't pay him because you stole all the money.

Is only that one guy entitled to his dollar back? Is only that one guy wronged?

Fantasy football isn't a lottery. Not sure why people don't get that. Most leagues aren't won by luck. They are won with diligence and forsight. Not pulled from a hat.

OK, how about a contest which is 100% skill? Let's say, a spelling bee. I advertise it as having $1M in prizes with a $100 entry fee. 10,000 people sign up. I steal the $1M. The best speller wins and I can't pay her. Is only the best speller entitled to recompense?

Let's make this even simpler then. Me and you enter a bet. I lose the bet. After I lose, I find out that - had I won - you wouldn't have had the resources to pay me. Am I entitled to my bet money back?

I think the clear answer is no. Phenom owes people their winnings and deposits, not their entry fees. Note that the pool of money in the same in both cases, but it's the distribution that changes.

PS - For those that use the lottery analogy, it makes all the difference if the balls are picked. If the lottery goes bust before the balls are picked, everyone is entitled to their entry fee back. If it goes bust after - then there are lottery winners and losers.

 

[fatness]

Let's make this even simpler then. Me and you enter a bet. I lose the bet. After I lose, I find out that - had I won - you wouldn't have had the resources to pay me. Am I entitled to my bet money back?

That's a pretty bad analogy. Everyone who entered a Phenoms league paid their money up front. I don't know why you'd equate them to deadbeat bettors.

 

[Smack Tripper]

Bei

I'm catching up and in and out of this thread.. feel bad for all affected...

Just wondering, where in this thread is there stuff about calling his dad and family? I at that idea... good for anyone who called.... let this stank hang on mike

Nah, I vote to leave his dad out of it. If he ripped us off, you can be sure he "borrowed" a ton of money from papa. Families tend the be the first victims of scumbags.

At least it would be nice to find out what the family knows about him.

Mike's an adult, over the age of 18. Leave his family out of it. Good Lord, you people are just fools.

If you forgot to pay your electric bill one month would you want them calling your parents threatening them or publishing their information on the internet for all to see?

You can bet his parents probably know about this already being as it's been on USA Today and all...they don't need Billy Joe Jim Bob Moron from Podunk Kentucky calling them and threatening to beat them up because they lost $50 in a fantasy football league. SMDH

Get some perspective, people. And let the blasting begin....

equating someone forgetting to pay their electric bill to someone stealing close to a million dollars is idiotic.

Being idiotic is taking that away from what I said.Read it again. HE....IS.....AN....ADULT....OVER....THE....AGE.....OF.....18....RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS OWN ACTIONS. LEAVE ....HIS.....FAMILY.....OUT.....OF.....IT.

Capisce now?

Nope, I'm calling your dad tomorrow.

You do realize that there are angry people on this thread who were tossing about the idea of showing up at his dad's house, right?

Let's put 2 and 2 together...angry people...showing up at his house. Do you really think that's going to end well?

Again, get some perspective.

If he took 2500 out of your wallet instead of your fantasy account how would you feel?Or do I suppose you have a Utah IP address...

If this guy deals with some moderate shunning, an age old tradition, he should count his blessings.

Lemme see if I get this straight....

So guys publish the home address and phone number of someone who is not a part of the situation on a public internet thread with an angry group of strangers looking for vengeance and that's okay by you.

But a guy steps in and tells them to stop and get some perspective, and all of a sudden, you're crying for the mods. You have a very twisted value system.

To answer your question:

I don't carry $2,500 in my wallet and I've never spent $2,500 on fantasy football entry fees (even with league deposits) in a year. So he couldn't do that. This is a hobby for me, keeps me interested in the pro and college games in a sport that I love to watch and used to coach. I've made a few bucks on this game over the years. I said earlier, I take my winnings, pay my taxes, and donate the rest to the high school football program coached by 2 long-time friends. Not saying that's makes me better than anyone else, it's just my choice. The wife always says she doesn't mind my hobby because it pays for itself and takes up relatively little time...and my kids can share in the experience.

1/2 hour before Mike sent that email, I found out one of my close friends from all the way back to grade school was diagnosed 2 months ago with stage 3 colon cancer. God really does work in mysterious ways with the timing of when I found that out. I started following this thread to get some rational ideas from people who had experience with ANTsports and WCOFF and the others as far as what to expect, maybe benefit from some different spins on the situation. What I found was a lynch mob going after their credit card companies and Mike's family and anyone who disagreed with them or got in their way. I found guys who every time someone disagrees with them says, "You're Mike aren't you?" or something like that - case in point above. I've found more interesting information in 66 posts on DLF than I have in 26 PAGES of posts here. Here, the equivalent of about 25 pages of posts are all about going after Mike and his family and personally attacking anyone who disagrees. I've been called more names in 2 days here than I was in my entire time in grade school. To Joe Bryant, I apologize, Joe, but that's just the way I see it.

This is my last post as I'm going to focus on the DLF feed, and I've said it 4 times now, get some perspective, people. I know I got one hell of a sobering perspective.

As far as the question about me being Mike or having a Utah IP address, I'm not going to dignify it with an answer. It's so patently ridiculous. Then again, there's going to be one idiot who is going to say "Duh, well he didn't deny it...", here's your answer....NO I am not Mike or one of his relatives or friend or the website developer or anything else nutty you come up with. Just a guy who has been an FBG member for several years, played FF at phenoms a few years and is right now really let down by the FBG community.

I know I'm gonna get attacked for this again but I won't be here so attack away.

sorry about your buddy dude, cancer sucks... I hope he gets better and short of that has the most peaceful path possible. I'm truly sorry to hear that.

I can appreciate and very much connect how that might shape your present perspective. But bear in mind you're in a heightened emotional state. In between a moment of extreme empathy and absolute greed, there is a balance we all have to live with.

I have no money in this game. But I do know whats right and whats wrong and I guess I personally care to see it put forth.

So your stakes or how you manage your marriage matters little to me.

Tilted tables matter a great deal to me, as they affect us all.

I didn't call for any mods, I may have mispelt and corrected moderate.

Nor have I, or would I, advocate violence towards Mike's family. I don't see how a phone call or letter is some great trauma to inflict. It is generally socialization that keeps much of society in line. It is less about how interpersonal contact occurs but to how it appears in a larger group. If this is the kind of guy Mike is or thinks he is, maybe he didn't consider his conduct being put forth in a public manner.

Again, if he were a standup guy and not apparently hiding his tracks, such outreach wouldn't be necessary.

And for the record, nor have I advocated violence toward Mike or would I, I merely asked you how you would handle a person lifting money from your person, which I think even the most weak willed among us, would contest. Because its an E-interaction and digital exchange, there is a separation in concept but not in practice, so I merely asked you what you would do.

As for the IP thing, I thought you were new based on a prior post, I was posting on my phone last night.

 

[Zdravko]

Let's make this even simpler then. Me and you enter a bet. I lose the bet. After I lose, I find out that - had I won - you wouldn't have had the resources to pay me. Am I entitled to my bet money back?

That's a pretty bad analogy. Everyone who entered a Phenoms league paid their money up front. I don't know why you'd equate them to deadbeat bettors.

Simple - notwithstanding the differences you point out, I am illustrating as simply as possible the concept that if you lost in a fantasy game / bet / lottery, you are not entitled to your money back if your counter-party turns out not to be in sound financial health.

Whatever money is recouped from Phenoms (if any) and survives the lawyer fees, will be distributed to this season's winners and next seasons depositors.

 

[cstu]

The only people I sympathize with are the winners of the leagues. Everyone else got what they were promised as far as I can tell.

Exactly why Mikes timing was genious and well planned.

If Mike admits the money is gone in week 2 do people not have a right to file a chargeback? If he had the money in September he should have had it in December. The fact that Mike waited to say the money is gone doesn't change the fact that it was a fraudulent league.

 

[Max Power]

The only people I sympathize with are the winners of the leagues. Everyone else got what they were promised as far as I can tell.

Exactly why Mikes timing was genious and well planned.

If Mike admits the money is gone in week 2 do people not have a right to file a chargeback? If he had the money in September he should have had it in December. The fact that Mike waited to say the money is gone doesn't change the fact that it was a fraudulent league.

On point today!

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Question for the legal eagles.

Does it matter that Phenoms indicated that payouts would be made in "full at the completion of the fantasy season"?

Obviously it is not the end of the "fantasy season" yet.

I'm getting ready to call my CC and file a dispute, just wondering if this was relevant or not.

It's relevant because it means he hasn't actually breached his obligation to pay you yet, meaning that you may not have a remedy yet.

On the other hand, he's already stated that he won't be able to pay in full, which may qualify as an anticipatory breach. Also, the very fact that he misrepresented the security of the funds may be a breach.

In short, things are complicated. The fact that the payouts are not yet due is relevant, but perhaps not dispositive.

 

[Davewhit]

The whole season was a sham from the beginning. If the story he gave us is true, he knew back on week 1 there would be a great chance he wouldn't have been able to make payments 3 months later. If the story he gave us is BS, he also knew back in week 1 he wasn't making any payments 3 months later. Everyone should try whatever they can to get their entry fees back. This coming from someone in the championship game and points leader of a $200 league. The reason he waited until last week to send anything out was to weed out the non-caring teams already out of contention that had already checked out. It was a simple plan of damage control on his part. No question in my mind about it.

 

[jon_mx]

Let's make this even simpler then. Me and you enter a bet. I lose the bet. After I lose, I find out that - had I won - you wouldn't have had the resources to pay me. Am I entitled to my bet money back?

That's a pretty bad analogy. Everyone who entered a Phenoms league paid their money up front. I don't know why you'd equate them to deadbeat bettors.

Simple - notwithstanding the differences you point out, I am illustrating as simply as possible the concept that if you lost in a fantasy game / bet / lottery, you are not entitled to your money back if your counter-party turns out not to be in sound financial health.

Whatever money is recouped from Phenoms (if any) and survives the lawyer fees, will be distributed to this season's winners and next seasons depositors.

People really gave desposits for next season? What kind of story did he give for that. Obviously he was having a cash flow issue when he started that policy.

 

[Chili Cheese Burrito]

Everyone who played, played with the expectation that winners would get the prize pool...NOT...players in contention would maybe get their money back while the guy collecting the money gets most of the prize pool. If the pool is not being paid to winners, it needs to be distributed back to everyone and not kept by the guy collecting it. This isn't a super hard concept to grasp.

And then you're going to give it to the rightful owner(s), right?

Dont forget to pay Mike his rake for holding the league. Or can I keep that? Or divide it among the winners?

 

[jon_mx]

The whole season was a sham from the beginning. If the story he gave us is true, he knew back on week 1 there would be a great chance he wouldn't have been able to make payments 3 months later. If the story he gave us is BS, he also knew back in week 1 he wasn't making any payments 3 months later. Everyone should try whatever they can to get their entry fees back. This coming from someone in the championship game and points leader of a $200 league. The reason he waited until last week to send anything out was to weed out the non-caring teams already out of contention that had already checked out. It was a simple plan of damage control on his part. No question in my mind about it.

I don't think that played into much. He was hoping for some miracle to save his butt. Maybe a buyout or maybe winning a big money league. The timing makes most sense that he just got eliminated in his big money leagues and had no way out. Whether he has 100 people after him or 1000 people after him is not that big of a deal, his goose is cooked.

 

[cstu]

Let's make this even simpler then. Me and you enter a bet. I lose the bet. After I lose, I find out that - had I won - you wouldn't have had the resources to pay me. Am I entitled to my bet money back?

That's a pretty bad analogy. Everyone who entered a Phenoms league paid their money up front. I don't know why you'd equate them to deadbeat bettors.

Simple - notwithstanding the differences you point out, I am illustrating as simply as possible the concept that if you lost in a fantasy game / bet / lottery, you are not entitled to your money back if your counter-party turns out not to be in sound financial health.

Whatever money is recouped from Phenoms (if any) and survives the lawyer fees, will be distributed to this season's winners and next seasons depositors.

People really gave desposits for next season? What kind of story did he give for that. Obviously he was having a cash flow issue when he started that policy.

Phenoms Fantasy Football Keeper LeaguesKeeper fantasy football leagues allow you to retain your core players from year to year. Phenoms offers keeper leagues in a variety of entry fees and scoring systems. In these leagues, you carry over five players from year to year, with no restrictions as to which five you keep. There is an annual draft in which all players not on a roster are eligible, including rookies. The one-time deposit ensures that your league will run year after year with a full prize pool. Start building your fantasy football franchise today!

If anyone thinks this was anything but a scam, tell me what happened to all the deposit money for next year.

 

[JimmyJabroni]

Everyone who played, played with the expectation that winners would get the prize pool...NOT...players in contention would maybe get their money back while the guy collecting the money gets most of the prize pool. If the pool is not being paid to winners, it needs to be distributed back to everyone and not kept by the guy collecting it. This isn't a super hard concept to grasp.

And then you're going to give it to the rightful owner(s), right?

At that point I would be the rightful owner and would decide what to do with it.

 

[jon_mx]

Let's make this even simpler then. Me and you enter a bet. I lose the bet. After I lose, I find out that - had I won - you wouldn't have had the resources to pay me. Am I entitled to my bet money back?

That's a pretty bad analogy. Everyone who entered a Phenoms league paid their money up front. I don't know why you'd equate them to deadbeat bettors.

Simple - notwithstanding the differences you point out, I am illustrating as simply as possible the concept that if you lost in a fantasy game / bet / lottery, you are not entitled to your money back if your counter-party turns out not to be in sound financial health.

Whatever money is recouped from Phenoms (if any) and survives the lawyer fees, will be distributed to this season's winners and next seasons depositors.

People really gave desposits for next season? What kind of story did he give for that. Obviously he was having a cash flow issue when he started that policy.

Phenoms Fantasy Football Keeper LeaguesKeeper fantasy football leagues allow you to retain your core players from year to year. Phenoms offers keeper leagues in a variety of entry fees and scoring systems. In these leagues, you carry over five players from year to year, with no restrictions as to which five you keep. There is an annual draft in which all players not on a roster are eligible, including rookies. The one-time deposit ensures that your league will run year after year with a full prize pool. Start building your fantasy football franchise today!

If anyone thinks this was anything but a scam, tell me what happened to all the deposit money for next year.

That line of crap makes no sense, but businesses do that kind of lying all the time to get people on the hook. I still suspect he had been robbing peter to pay paul for many years to support a gambling problem and it finally got to the point where the poop hit the fan.

 

[squistion]

People really gave desposits for next season? What kind of story did he give for that. Obviously he was having a cash flow issue when he started that policy.

Phenoms Fantasy Football Keeper Leagues

Keeper fantasy football leagues allow you to retain your core players from year to year. Phenoms offers keeper leagues in a variety of entry fees and scoring systems. In these leagues, you carry over five players from year to year, with no restrictions as to which five you keep. There is an annual draft in which all players not on a roster are eligible, including rookies. The one-time deposit ensures that your league will run year after year with a full prize pool. Start building your fantasy football franchise today!

If anyone thinks this was anything but a scam, tell me what happened to all the deposit money for next year.

Requiring deposit money for future years (when draft picks have not been traded) should have been a red flag for anyone. Christopher Bruce of the infamous "B-Zone Leagues" also required a future deposit, which he used in a Ponzi scheme to pay off prior year's winners (until his house of cards collapsed). Deposits for future years are supposed to guarantee league stability, but doesn't mean that much if the person holding the deposits absconds with them.

 

[Ksquared]

No it is not unusual for a lot of dynasty leagues to do this if everyone does not know every player personally.

Most dynasty leagues don't last more than 3-4 years because a couple of owners will draft poorly and then trade future picks to dig them out of the hole they are in. When they do not do well, they quit and what is left - a team with no talent or draft picks. The deposit is to keep teams from dumping for a run in a single year and then make the league worthless in a year or two due to teams that have no ability to compete and no owner that wants to take over.

 

[squistion]

No it is not unusual for a lot of dynasty leagues to do this if everyone does not know every player personally.

Most dynasty leagues don't last more than 3-4 years because a couple of owners will draft poorly and then trade future picks to dig them out of the hole they are in. When they do not do well, they quit and what is left - a team with no talent or draft picks. The deposit is to keep teams from dumping for a run in a single year and then make the league worthless in a year or two due to teams that have no ability to compete and no owner that wants to take over.

Trading future year's draft picks in dynasty leagues should also require the owner paying the future years dues in full (or at the very least a deposit). Not the same thing as requiring everybody to pay for the next year (which I don't think is necessary). Also, in my leagues, there hasn't really been that much of a problem finding replacement owners for those who have left (probably due to the requiring a deposit for any future draft pick traded). Occasionally a team has been hard to fill, but that is usually solved with a discount on current year's dues or an extra draft pick (which the rest of the league generally has had no problem with).

 

[fatness]

Let's make this even simpler then. Me and you enter a bet. I lose the bet. After I lose, I find out that - had I won - you wouldn't have had the resources to pay me. Am I entitled to my bet money back?

That's a pretty bad analogy. Everyone who entered a Phenoms league paid their money up front. I don't know why you'd equate them to deadbeat bettors.

Simple - notwithstanding the differences you point out, I am illustrating as simply as possible the concept that if you lost in a fantasy game / bet / lottery, you are not entitled to your money back if your counter-party turns out not to be in sound financial health.

Whatever money is recouped from Phenoms (if any) and survives the lawyer fees, will be distributed to this season's winners and next seasons depositors.

No it won't. No court is going to go through the league looking at who would have won. Seriously, that's just silly.

Everyone who paid the league paid will share in what's recovered, if anything, since they all were equally defrauded. None of them had a chance to win money.

Reminds me of buzzards in a field eating a dead deer, which the farmer hauls away to the dump. There's a few remaining scraps of fur and tendons in the field, a bunch of buzzards are eating what's left, and a couple buzzards are saying "that all belongs to me because I woulda had the liver."

 

[Dragon1952]

Let's make this even simpler then. Me and you enter a bet. I lose the bet. After I lose, I find out that - had I won - you wouldn't have had the resources to pay me. Am I entitled to my bet money back?

That's a pretty bad analogy. Everyone who entered a Phenoms league paid their money up front. I don't know why you'd equate them to deadbeat bettors.

Simple - notwithstanding the differences you point out, I am illustrating as simply as possible the concept that if you lost in a fantasy game / bet / lottery, you are not entitled to your money back if your counter-party turns out not to be in sound financial health.

Whatever money is recouped from Phenoms (if any) and survives the lawyer fees, will be distributed to this season's winners and next seasons depositors.

No it won't. No court is going to go through the league looking at who would have won. Seriously, that's just silly.

Everyone who paid the league paid will share in what's recovered, if anything, since they all were equally defrauded. None of them had a chance to win money.

Reminds me of buzzards in a field eating a dead deer, which the farmer hauls away to the dump. There's a few remaining scraps of fur and tendons in the field, a bunch of buzzards are eating what's left, and a couple buzzards are saying "that all belongs to me because I woulda had the liver."

I'm not sure you can assuredly state that "None of them had a chance to win money". I think it was never Mike's intent to not award winnings this year and I think it would have to be proven that he didn't intend to do so before you declared that "everyone" was defrauded.