Spending protected prize money for any reason is fraud, regardless of intent. If your bank spent the cash in your safety deposit box on its electricity bill its still fraud. Hell, Bernie Madoff made this exact argument.
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Phenoms going under (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter JohnW1970
- Start date
cstu
Footballguy
He took money from people in September and somewhere before December he decided to pay a web developer with the money? Ridiculous.
fatness
Footballguy
Mike informed the league there would be little or no prize money well before league schedule for distributing prize money, so no, nobody had any chance to win prize money. It doesn't matter what someone guesses his intent was.
Dragon1952
Footballguy
Dragon1952
Footballguy
And guessing is exactly what someone is doing when they say there was never any intent to pay prize money to anyone. He didn't declare that until Week 15. The point I'm trying to make is that IMO the only ones defrauded were the ones who would have had winnings. I don't for a second believe at the start of the season he knew he wouldn't be able to pay. That's the only defense anyone has in trying to recoup entry fees that they would have lost anyway. I also understand the desire to try and recoup something that was thought to be lost and now seems maybe not lost after all. The ones trying to do so are trying awfully hard to rationalize it and I understand that too......it's the way we are. I just disagree is all.
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
Mike is reading this thread and must be amused that his "divide and conquer plan" is working so splendidly. 25 percent of the "winners" from all the prize suckers who paid in are uniting against the 75 percent of "losers" who rightfully lost because they didn't qualify for the postseason. Virtual winnings creating an odd dichotomy within the ranks of former Phenoms owners. The "haves" and "havenots". Reminds me of the lifeboat scene in "Titanic", when twelve dignified passengers wouldn't scoot their butts over on a boat that could handle 30, or 50 even.
All of us should be doing CC chargebacks. All of us, even the losers were defrauded. We have strength in numbers. What do you care about more? Putting Mike in jail or getting all your money back. Getting civil or tort damages is a real possible remedy. Getting your money back, all of it I mean, is a pipe dream. Let it go. Be content if you can get just your entry fees and deposits back. If every former Phenoms owner joins in this, the number of complaints will be staggering, too many for the authorities to ignore. It's the only way to keep the pressure firmly ratcheted on Mike. Speaking for myself, I will gladly disperse my winnings with my league mates if it leads to justice for what Mike did. We speak with the loudest voice when we speak as one.
All of us should be doing CC chargebacks. All of us, even the losers were defrauded. We have strength in numbers. What do you care about more? Putting Mike in jail or getting all your money back. Getting civil or tort damages is a real possible remedy. Getting your money back, all of it I mean, is a pipe dream. Let it go. Be content if you can get just your entry fees and deposits back. If every former Phenoms owner joins in this, the number of complaints will be staggering, too many for the authorities to ignore. It's the only way to keep the pressure firmly ratcheted on Mike. Speaking for myself, I will gladly disperse my winnings with my league mates if it leads to justice for what Mike did. We speak with the loudest voice when we speak as one.
Time will tell how this plays out, but based on my few law classes, I still surmise you are incorrect.
Disclaimer - I never played in one of those leagues. I honestly have no dog in this fight, although I do hope, one, as many people can get what they are owed back, and, two, the fraudulent Phenoms owner is brought to public justice soon.
So I am assuming the Phenom leagues will be treated as a legal business entity. I have no knowledge of how fraud proceedings work for individuals, so disregard all of this if you think the Utah courts will find that Phenoms lacks legal status and make this an individual defrauding case. No idea what happens then.
As a legal entity, Phenom has not declared bankruptcy yet, to the best of my knowledge. A judge will decide whether the email is a de facto declaration, but my guess is that under the 2005 Bankruptcy Act it is unlikely the email is enough. The Act specifies the usual long process for filing under Chapter 7 or 13 and one email simply won't cut it.
The date of the bankruptcy is what will be used to establish the amounts and priority of claims on remaining assets. Obviously that date will be after most fantasy football outcomes are known. A court won't need to go through much trouble to establish winnings, but also it likely won't bother with that, because the burden of proof in this case will be on the claimants to show that they are owed assets. Under the terms of the agreement (explicit or implicit) between individual owners and Phenoms, as of that date certain owners would be owed prize winnings, while others would be owed nothing. For the owners owed nothing, Phenoms would have honored its obligations under the terms of the agreement.
The courts will find it irrelevant whether Phenoms 'would have had' the means to pay as of August, September or October. All that will matter is what the situation looks like at the time bankruptcy is legally established under the 2005 Act. If you take a step back and think about it, this part of the law actually makes pragmatic sense. The courts cannot be expected to second-guess at what exact point in time did Phenoms become unable to pay and which league owners were defrauded first. The reality is - just like with any other company that goes bankrupt - that it is a gradual process of drawing down assets beyond what is needed to cover liabilities.
With my admittedly limited knowledge of Utah law, I would still be very surprised at any other outcome, but I suppose you can disagree and time will tell.
Lastly, do note that that I am not saying "Don't go to your credit card company or bank". On the contrary - everybody should do that. However, this is obviously different than going after Phenoms individually or in class-action, which is the point of the discussion here.
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Grigs Allmoon
Footballguy
Grigs Allmoon
Footballguy
fatness
Footballguy
Yes, I know that. You're just wrong about it.
I guess the thinking is that, there's a diminishing pool of money to be gotten from the league, if there's any left at all. And those who think they won imaginary money feel that whatever they might still get is somehow threatened by chargebacks by those who didn't get what they paid for -- a league in which they could win money.
There was no money to win.
Dragon1952
Footballguy
fatness
Footballguy
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
First and foremost---I want to say that I have no horse in this race as I am fortunate enough to not be in any leagues that are run through Phenoms. I want to say that I feel really bad and I hope for the most positive outcome for those of who got taken advantage of in this unfortunate situation.
My thoughts are that everybody who played in a Phenoms league should file for a claim as well as a charge back. The key to entering a money league in fantasy football is that everybody who plays expects there to be a legit and guaranteed prize pool. It would be the same as if somebody sold raffle tickets to win a Corvette--but once all the tickets were sold--it was exposed that there was no Corvette to be won. They could draw a ticket and say--"hey, this one person would have been the hypothetical winner--so he/she is the only person with a legit claim"--but that would obviously be a ridiculous argument. The fact of the matter is that fantasy leagues without the expectations of real/legit cash prizes are routinely available for free. Thus, the argument that players that would not have been eligible for cash prizes in Phenoms are going for a money run is absolutely ridiculous. Everybody who paid for a league with Phenoms did so with the expectation of a full prize pool payout--and the fact is that these expectations were not close to being met. This is no longer about who got "screwed" the most-as every Phenoms player got screwed equally the minute they signed up--this is about illegal/fraudulent business practices by an absolute degenerate and justice needs to be served.
My thoughts are that everybody who played in a Phenoms league should file for a claim as well as a charge back. The key to entering a money league in fantasy football is that everybody who plays expects there to be a legit and guaranteed prize pool. It would be the same as if somebody sold raffle tickets to win a Corvette--but once all the tickets were sold--it was exposed that there was no Corvette to be won. They could draw a ticket and say--"hey, this one person would have been the hypothetical winner--so he/she is the only person with a legit claim"--but that would obviously be a ridiculous argument. The fact of the matter is that fantasy leagues without the expectations of real/legit cash prizes are routinely available for free. Thus, the argument that players that would not have been eligible for cash prizes in Phenoms are going for a money run is absolutely ridiculous. Everybody who paid for a league with Phenoms did so with the expectation of a full prize pool payout--and the fact is that these expectations were not close to being met. This is no longer about who got "screwed" the most-as every Phenoms player got screwed equally the minute they signed up--this is about illegal/fraudulent business practices by an absolute degenerate and justice needs to be served.
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Dragon1952
Footballguy
The problem with that analogy, along with the 5 or so similar one's other 'clever' people have presented, is that there was a Corvette. There has been a Corvette for 10 yrs that has been awarded without a glitch, and there was a Corvette this year. It's just that this year's Corvette got stripped prior to it's presentation. The 'sides' seem to be divided amongst those that say 'there was never any prize money to begin with'...which is a great rationalization for trying to recoup their fees but probably false, and those that say 'there was prize money, and maybe still is a portion, but regardless whatever can be salvaged out of this should be going to the winners'. It appears the guy didn't plan this and run off with the money or else he would have just disappeared without saying anything. He certainly wouldn't announce that there's not enough money in Week 15, hire lawyers, file bankruptcy and stick around to face the music.
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
What happened in the past is irrelevant. The reason why there was no litigation in the past is exactly what you described--the prize pool that was guaranteed was paid out. Why do we sign up for some money leagues, and not others?? It is because we feel that a certain leagues guranteed payouts, prize pools are more enticing than others. Regardless of what happened in prior years--this seasons "guaranteed prize pool" is not being met--and unfortunately due to fraudulent practices. The expectations of every consumer that signed up to play in this league this season were not met. This is no longer a fantasy sports issue--it's a consumer rights issue. Every consumer of Phenoms got screwed--and that's really the only thing that matters.
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Dragon1952
Footballguy
The past is not irrelevant because it shows the likelihood that there was a prize pool, just as there had been for 10 yrs. The main point losers seem to be using to justify recouping fees is that there wasn't a prize pool to begin with hence they paid for something that was either never there in the first place or that was never intended from the beginning to be paid out. If you want to recoup fees, fine but think up another justification if you require one. Those are the one's I am responding to.
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jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
The "likelihood" of the prize pool is irrelevant--the only thing that matters is the "actuality" of the prize pool. Every player that signed up to play in Phenoms this year did so with the full expectations that the advertised prize pool was going to be paid out. The advertised reality of the prize pool is why decisions were made by every consumer to sign up with Phenoms. The fact that this prize pool is vastly reduced or non-existent-- would absolutely void the decision made by any consumer that signed up with those guarantees in mind. The point of view that only "winning" owners should have a beef is absolutely ridiculous. A winning owner in Phenoms is basically a "screwed consumer" that happened to have a better fantasy season than the other "screwed consumers" in Phenoms. In regards to the "intent" to pay issue--that still does not matter. We don't play in money leagues for the "intent" of a prize. Our expectations are that the prize pools that are advertised are fully honored and paid out. If a company promises something and then changes those terms (regardless of intent) in a way that is detrimental/unfair to a consumer--every consumer that was promised those original terms has a right to feel badly done by. The biggest point of contention in this thread is that a lot of people are still looking at Phenoms as a winner/loser fantasy football situation---and my point is that this is wrong. The lack of payouts would have detracted everybody from signing up with Phenoms--which means there would have been no winners or losers.
This wasn't a bet it was an entry fee, which I paid up front.Zdravko said:
There was nothing in the contest rules which stated after week 14 any prize money would be paid. The 4th place team is not supposed to get money under the "contest" rules. But now they do? Or do you change the rules to say whoever finished 1-3 after week 14 gets the prize money? Also what about the point leaders? That was supposed to go through week 16. Is only that portion of the contest null and void?
I'm not sure I understand who "won" these leagues since they were never finished. The leagues I made the playoffs in I have just as much chance of winning as the leagues I didn't qualify for, payout is the same.
So now who won or lost depends on the intent of the guy that scammed either some or all of us?
It just happens to be what you want to hear. There are many possibilities which he ignored in his post. For instance, it is very likely the court in Utah will find this activity illegal, and thus not care who won anything as courts do not enforce illegal contracts.I like reading posts by smart people. Thanks!
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Sabertooth
Footballguy
had a team quit last year like this. Replacement owner has this team in the finals this week. And he's the favorite.Ksquared said:
Just curious as to why the people here that are stating the only people who should try and fight for their money back are the league winners? Is it that you feel it's not right to try and get something back you didn't earn? Or do you have the thought that if everyone gets their entry fees back, it will leave less for the actual winners to get whenever he finally pays out or a bankruptcy judgement is made? I'm not a lawyer, but I really think NOBODY will get whatever they truly have won. By your rationale, in a $100 league with 12 teams, if only the winners make claims to get their entry fees back...that gives out only $300 back. Are you saying the remaining $900 should stay with Mike or wherever the courts/banks decide it should go (which more than likely wouldn't be us)? Why do you even care? I was set to make more than my entry fees here, but I 100% side with my fellow customers and want every single penny to go back to the people that gave their money originally to this guy.
I still don't understand how holding other people's money (prize money) has anything to do with developing software, website, whatever for the business. That's not money that should be used in anyway for the business.
Unreal.
As others have said, I have no dog in this fight.
Unreal.
As others have said, I have no dog in this fight.
weinster666
Footballguy
Obviously, there are 2 differing opinions of who lost what in this situation.
On the one hand, there are those who look at the service Phenoms provided as a single whole entity. Its like if you bought a movie ticket, sat in the theater, watched the first 3/4 of the movie and then the projector broke. You wouldn't expect to only get a refund for 1/4 of the ticket price because you got to watch 3/4 of the movie. Whether you enjoyed or hated the movie, thought it a waste of time or a treasured memory, is irrelevant. You didn't get 100% of the promise service, and you believe you deserve 100% of the ticket price refunded. This is a valid point-of-view.
On the other hand, some look at the service Phenoms provided by the various parts, like paying for the service of getting 6 months of newspapers delivered, only the last month never showed up. I would expect you would only get a refund for the newspapers you didn't get, not a full 6month refund. Phenoms provided many parts of the expected service - a place to join leagues, a method to run the drafts, Phenoms provided live scoring updates, kept track of standings of each week , handled waivers, etc. The one (and arguably the MOST IMPORTANT part) Phenoms didn't deliver was the prize pool payouts. In this point-of-view, I would say everyone, winners and losers, are out something, But the league winners have a more obvious financial loss.
Both points have valid arguments.
Ultimately, only a court can decide.
On the one hand, there are those who look at the service Phenoms provided as a single whole entity. Its like if you bought a movie ticket, sat in the theater, watched the first 3/4 of the movie and then the projector broke. You wouldn't expect to only get a refund for 1/4 of the ticket price because you got to watch 3/4 of the movie. Whether you enjoyed or hated the movie, thought it a waste of time or a treasured memory, is irrelevant. You didn't get 100% of the promise service, and you believe you deserve 100% of the ticket price refunded. This is a valid point-of-view.
On the other hand, some look at the service Phenoms provided by the various parts, like paying for the service of getting 6 months of newspapers delivered, only the last month never showed up. I would expect you would only get a refund for the newspapers you didn't get, not a full 6month refund. Phenoms provided many parts of the expected service - a place to join leagues, a method to run the drafts, Phenoms provided live scoring updates, kept track of standings of each week , handled waivers, etc. The one (and arguably the MOST IMPORTANT part) Phenoms didn't deliver was the prize pool payouts. In this point-of-view, I would say everyone, winners and losers, are out something, But the league winners have a more obvious financial loss.
Both points have valid arguments.
Ultimately, only a court can decide.
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That really does not indicate what people are arguing about. Only about 15% of the money paid to Mike was for his service.
Grigs Allmoon
Footballguy
First, I don't "want" to hear anything. I'm a bystander. I just happened to witness some pretty flawed logic, while spectating.
All I really want is for justice to be served. That leads to your last point, which is valid. Refunds are up to the courts now. And, hopefully the authorities can (and will chose to) determine if Mike's actions were criminal.
Grigs Allmoon
Footballguy
BassNBrew
Footballguy
Some people gave up since payouts weren't going to be made which at lease impacted the potential outcomes.
Grigs Allmoon
Footballguy
That's their blunder then.
Going back to the lottery analogy, that would be like ripping up the lottery ticket when the company said they might not be able to pay out, or would be able to pay out very little, or worst case, would declare bankruptcy in which case debtors would get next to nothing. That ticket still had some value, it was just very likely to be WAY less than originally expected.
weinster666
Footballguy
Maybe I should have specified what argument I was referring to. I was referring to the argument between those who think everyone should get all their money back vs. those who think only the winners should be making claims for money. there is no argument regarding the other 85% of the money - we all know the money didn't belong to Phenoms or Mike.
G
General Tso
Guest
If a bear farts in the woods, and nobody smells it, .... Nevermind.hamhocs said:
Dizzy
Footballguy
I got to say, I think winning your league this week still "matters"
I see both sides, and I am on both sides of this argument myself...
But if there was an objective way of looking at who Mike "owes" is bankruptcy court, we "as unsecured creditors" I think they WOULD see who fininshed 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and pay those before/more than they would pay the rest of the league...
IF Mike files after week 16, I think the bankruptcy court will look to who mike owes currently, and those will be the prize winners.. If he already filed, then it is anyones guess how the courts would go about paying everyone back
I see both sides, and I am on both sides of this argument myself...
But if there was an objective way of looking at who Mike "owes" is bankruptcy court, we "as unsecured creditors" I think they WOULD see who fininshed 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and pay those before/more than they would pay the rest of the league...
IF Mike files after week 16, I think the bankruptcy court will look to who mike owes currently, and those will be the prize winners.. If he already filed, then it is anyones guess how the courts would go about paying everyone back
Dizzy
Footballguy
"Docket number 00312677, in the case of Phenom Sports LLC versus Sniveling Weasels Fantasy Football, the court hereby awards the Portland Beaver Maulers $150.00 for finishing first overall in the See Food Division."
Oh yeah, that's totally believable.
If the court revives claims for payouts, and one owner's team was 1-10 and didn't make the playoffs, and the other team 10-1 and wins the league and Mike owes them $3000, do you REALLY think they would see both claims as equal?
The bottom line is if the court has an objective way to pay back the unsecured creditors they will use it… And considering according to Mike's bylaws he agreed to pay the PRIZE WINNERS, not everyone… so if the courts have a record of WHO the prize winners are, they will pay them out first, and whatever money is leftover will be paid to the rest of the league members who did not win a prize.
I know that is not what you want to hear dizzy, but objectively speaking the courts will use all available information to determine who will be paid
The bottom line is if the court has an objective way to pay back the unsecured creditors they will use it… And considering according to Mike's bylaws he agreed to pay the PRIZE WINNERS, not everyone… so if the courts have a record of WHO the prize winners are, they will pay them out first, and whatever money is leftover will be paid to the rest of the league members who did not win a prize.
I know that is not what you want to hear dizzy, but objectively speaking the courts will use all available information to determine who will be paid
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boutrous11
Footballguy
my ####ty luck: i entered 16 leagues this year (9 of them were $10 draft only leagues) and I'm going to cash in 3 of them. 2 of those 3 are Phenoms leauges! $#&@#@
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BassNBrew
Footballguy
Hooper31
Footballguy
Don't you have your own special thread designed not to ruin threads like this? There's a lot emotional scars being healed here. Let's just let it run its course.
boutrous11
Footballguy
what if i used my paypal that is linked directly to my bank account to pay for the leagues?
