Planned Parenthood leaked video (1 Viewer)

[timschochet]

So far in this thread, Planned Parenthood has been called baby murderers, monsters, and compared to Mengele.

How can we have an honest and rational discussion when this sort of rhetoric is used?

What if our honest opinion is that they are murderers? Why is this so hard to understand?

That is YOUR opinion. The Supreme Court, and the majority of Americans, disagree with you.

Therefore your opinion + 50c gets you a cup of coffee when it comes to anyone else's lives but your own.

How is that so hard to understand?

Ah, using the supreme court as moral validation I guess?

So I assume that if the supreme court changes and declares that abortion is murder, you'll be fully on board, right?

This is a great point, and I agree with you completely.

Abortion is either right or wrong, and that's regardless of supreme court decisions and popularity at any given time.

That being said, what the Supreme Court is supposed to look at is whether or not the right to an abortion is protected by the Constitution, which is a different issue than whether or not abortion is right or wrong. One could believe that abortion is absolutely wrong and immoral yet also believe that it is a protected right under the Constitution. Conversely, one could believe in a woman's right to an abortion, yet also find that in no way does the Constitution provide that right.

 

[(HULK)]

I honestly think that the people living 200 years from now will look back at abortion as a barbaric practice.

I think many people 200 and 2000 years ago felt the same away... but let people make their own decisions.

I'm pretty damn liberterian about most things... but just like we wouldn't let people murder their neighbors, or punch a baby on the street, or whatever else, we must make laws that prevent one person's own decisions from infringing upon the rights of others. I personally feel like the unborn should have the same rights as the rest of us. They're a life, and I believe in respecting and valuing life whenever possible. I'd rather us throw money at programs to reduce the number of abortions (ie education and free birth control) than plenty of things we currently throw money at.

 

[shader]

So far in this thread, Planned Parenthood has been called baby murderers, monsters, and compared to Mengele.

How can we have an honest and rational discussion when this sort of rhetoric is used?

What if our honest opinion is that they are murderers? Why is this so hard to understand?

Because it isn't. It's a dishonest opinion, I believe.

Earlier in this thread Ka El, who is as pro-life as anyone here, stated that he hoped that women who had had abortions in the past and now regretted that decision were counseled. That's not the way we treat murderers in our society. Sure, you have ministers visit them on death row, but first you make sure they ARE on death row, or facing a long prison sentence.

I don't believe that any of you pro-lifers would ever call for imprisonment or death as a proper punishment for women who commit abortion or doctors who commit abortion or, in this case, people who offer consultation to women who are considering abortion. And that's why I believe that when you call them murderers, it's dishonest.

This isn't really logical, Tim. First of all, having an abortion doesn't lead to a death sentence or imprisonment in our society. So no, I don't think we should go back and put all women who had abortions in jail. Personally I don't really care what the laws are, and I don't go around trying to get the laws changed. I can't control who thinks what, and I certainly have no idea what the current popular opinion on abortion is, as if that matters.

But I still think it's murder, morally. It's not a dishonest opinion. It's far more rational than the popoular opinion, which has no rational belief behind it, no tangible life/no-life line. If it's murder to kill a human ten months after conception, it's murder 6 months, 3 months, etc.

Then to add this story to it, the selling and profiting of body parts, from the destroyed fetuses (I'll use your words if you'd like, since "murdered babies doesn't sit well with you guys)...it's just appalling.

But then, when you go legalizing abortion, it really shouldn't be surprising. I mean, once you've convinced yourself it's not a human, and once you've hidden your morality behind the laws of the land, it probably isn't that big of a deal, and after awhile, it becomes routine and you can laugh about it.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

I honestly think that the people living 200 years from now will look back at abortion as a barbaric practice.

I think many people 200 and 2000 years ago felt the same away... but let people make their own decisions.

I'm pretty damn liberterian about most things... but just like we wouldn't let people murder their neighbors, or punch a baby on the street, or whatever else, we must make laws that prevent one person's own decisions from infringing upon the rights of others. I personally feel like the unborn should have the same rights as the rest of us. They're a life, and I believe in respecting and valuing life whenever possible. I'd rather us throw money at programs to reduce the number of abortions (ie education and free birth control) than plenty of things we currently throw money at.

Barbaric <<< / >>> Personhood

 

[timschochet]

I honestly think that the people living 200 years from now will look back at abortion as a barbaric practice. (These future people only get pregnant when intentional as their birth control is rock solid).

This is very interesting.

But isn't it ironic that most of the same people who currently find abortion to be barbaric are also typically opposed to birth control?

 

[(HULK)]

When is the moment a life begins? When it leaves it's mother's body seems like an arbitrary choice.

When it develops a sense of self makes some sense, but that is typically 6 or 7 months after birth, and I don't think most of us are okay with intentionally putting down a 3 month old.

When it has a brain? If it doesn't have a sense of self, why does having the organ that will eventually give it one matter? When it has a heart? Thats completely arbitrary as well. When it can survive on its own outside the mother? I don't think thats great either cause I've never met an infant that could survive without constant care.

At conception seems like the most logical option to me.

 

[shader]

I honestly think that the people living 200 years from now will look back at abortion as a barbaric practice. (These future people only get pregnant when intentional as their birth control is rock solid).

This is very interesting.

But isn't it ironic that most of the same people who currently find abortion to be barbaric are also typically opposed to birth control?

Seriously? Who is against birth control, aside from catholics (who probably aren't REALLY against it anymore)?. I mean, I don't think I've ever met someone who has admitted to being against birth control, and I live in Tennessee.

 

[(HULK)]

I honestly think that the people living 200 years from now will look back at abortion as a barbaric practice.

I think many people 200 and 2000 years ago felt the same away... but let people make their own decisions.

I'm pretty damn liberterian about most things... but just like we wouldn't let people murder their neighbors, or punch a baby on the street, or whatever else, we must make laws that prevent one person's own decisions from infringing upon the rights of others. I personally feel like the unborn should have the same rights as the rest of us. They're a life, and I believe in respecting and valuing life whenever possible. I'd rather us throw money at programs to reduce the number of abortions (ie education and free birth control) than plenty of things we currently throw money at.

Barbaric <<< / >>> Personhood

What defines personhood then? I'm listening.

 

[(HULK)]

I honestly think that the people living 200 years from now will look back at abortion as a barbaric practice. (These future people only get pregnant when intentional as their birth control is rock solid).

This is very interesting.

But isn't it ironic that most of the same people who currently find abortion to be barbaric are also typically opposed to birth control?

Or in favor of the death penalty?

Yes, it saddens me that people have these weird clustering of views that make little sense in aggregate.

 

[timschochet]

So far in this thread, Planned Parenthood has been called baby murderers, monsters, and compared to Mengele.

How can we have an honest and rational discussion when this sort of rhetoric is used?

What if our honest opinion is that they are murderers? Why is this so hard to understand?

Because it isn't. It's a dishonest opinion, I believe.

Earlier in this thread Ka El, who is as pro-life as anyone here, stated that he hoped that women who had had abortions in the past and now regretted that decision were counseled. That's not the way we treat murderers in our society. Sure, you have ministers visit them on death row, but first you make sure they ARE on death row, or facing a long prison sentence.

I don't believe that any of you pro-lifers would ever call for imprisonment or death as a proper punishment for women who commit abortion or doctors who commit abortion or, in this case, people who offer consultation to women who are considering abortion. And that's why I believe that when you call them murderers, it's dishonest.

This isn't really logical, Tim. First of all, having an abortion doesn't lead to a death sentence or imprisonment in our society. So no, I don't think we should go back and put all women who had abortions in jail. Personally I don't really care what the laws are, and I don't go around trying to get the laws changed. I can't control who thinks what, and I certainly have no idea what the current popular opinion on abortion is, as if that matters.

But I still think it's murder, morally. It's not a dishonest opinion. It's far more rational than the popoular opinion, which has no rational belief behind it, no tangible life/no-life line. If it's murder to kill a human ten months after conception, it's murder 6 months, 3 months, etc.

Then to add this story to it, the selling and profiting of body parts, from the destroyed fetuses (I'll use your words if you'd like, since "murdered babies doesn't sit well with you guys)...it's just appalling.

But then, when you go legalizing abortion, it really shouldn't be surprising. I mean, once you've convinced yourself it's not a human, and once you've hidden your morality behind the laws of the land, it probably isn't that big of a deal, and after awhile, it becomes routine and you can laugh about it.

You wrote that you don't care what the laws are, and you're not going around trying to get the laws changed. And yet you call abortion murder. These two statements are incongruous. If you truly believed it was murder, you would move heaven and earth to get the law changed, and you would certainly care what they were. Heck, you might even justify the bombing of Planned Parenthood clinics. Such an action would save lives.

The fact that you do none of these things indicates to me that, deep down, you recognize that while you call abortion murder, it really isn't equal to other more conventional uses of the term.

 

[shader]

When is the moment a life begins? When it leaves it's mother's body seems like an arbitrary choice.

When it develops a sense of self makes some sense, but that is typically 6 or 7 months after birth, and I don't think most of us are okay with intentionally putting down a 3 month old.

When it has a brain? If it doesn't have a sense of self, why does having the organ that will eventually give it one matter? When it has a heart? Thats completely arbitrary as well. When it can survive on its own outside the mother? I don't think thats great either cause I've never met an infant that could survive without constant care.

At conception seems like the most logical option to me.

It's the only rational option, in my opinion. Every other line is completely arbitrary and ridiculous, and birth is perhaps the most ridiculous of them all (although I doubt anyone really thinks it's ok to have an abortion at 8 months or later..for some reason)

 

[BigSteelThrill]

I honestly think that the people living 200 years from now will look back at abortion as a barbaric practice.

I think many people 200 and 2000 years ago felt the same away... but let people make their own decisions.

I'm pretty damn liberterian about most things... but just like we wouldn't let people murder their neighbors, or punch a baby on the street, or whatever else, we must make laws that prevent one person's own decisions from infringing upon the rights of others. I personally feel like the unborn should have the same rights as the rest of us. They're a life, and I believe in respecting and valuing life whenever possible. I'd rather us throw money at programs to reduce the number of abortions (ie education and free birth control) than plenty of things we currently throw money at.

Barbaric <<< / >>> Personhood

What defines personhood then? I'm listening.

Full status under the law. Like a social security # and if anyone harms him/her the police will fully investigate and the government will prosecute.

 

[[icon]]

So far in this thread, Planned Parenthood has been called baby murderers, monsters, and compared to Mengele.

How can we have an honest and rational discussion when this sort of rhetoric is used?

What if our honest opinion is that they are murderers? Why is this so hard to understand?

That is YOUR opinion. The Supreme Court, and the majority of Americans, disagree with you.

Therefore your opinion + 50c gets you a cup of coffee when it comes to anyone else's lives but your own.

How is that so hard to understand?

Ah, using the supreme court as moral validation I guess?

Beats 2000 year old fairy tales

 

[timschochet]

I honestly think that the people living 200 years from now will look back at abortion as a barbaric practice. (These future people only get pregnant when intentional as their birth control is rock solid).

This is very interesting.

But isn't it ironic that most of the same people who currently find abortion to be barbaric are also typically opposed to birth control?

Seriously? Who is against birth control, aside from catholics (who probably aren't REALLY against it anymore)?. I mean, I don't think I've ever met someone who has admitted to being against birth control, and I live in Tennessee.

Wasn't that one of the main objections to Obamacare by conservative Christians? That they were "forced" to offer birth control to employees through insurance? Wasn't that the point of the whole Hobby Lobby lawsuit?

 

[whoknew]

When is the moment a life begins? When it leaves it's mother's body seems like an arbitrary choice.

When it develops a sense of self makes some sense, but that is typically 6 or 7 months after birth, and I don't think most of us are okay with intentionally putting down a 3 month old.

When it has a brain? If it doesn't have a sense of self, why does having the organ that will eventually give it one matter? When it has a heart? Thats completely arbitrary as well. When it can survive on its own outside the mother? I don't think thats great either cause I've never met an infant that could survive without constant care.

At conception seems like the most logical option to me.

Why do you think conception is less arbitrary than viability? Or birth?

 

[(HULK)]

I honestly think that the people living 200 years from now will look back at abortion as a barbaric practice. (These future people only get pregnant when intentional as their birth control is rock solid).

This is very interesting.

But isn't it ironic that most of the same people who currently find abortion to be barbaric are also typically opposed to birth control?

Seriously? Who is against birth control, aside from catholics (who probably aren't REALLY against it anymore)?. I mean, I don't think I've ever met someone who has admitted to being against birth control, and I live in Tennessee.

When you put condoms in schools, all sorts get upset.

Once upon a time there was a huge battle to get sex ed into schools too.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

So far in this thread, Planned Parenthood has been called baby murderers, monsters, and compared to Mengele.

How can we have an honest and rational discussion when this sort of rhetoric is used?

What if our honest opinion is that they are murderers? Why is this so hard to understand?

That is YOUR opinion. The Supreme Court, and the majority of Americans, disagree with you.

Therefore your opinion + 50c gets you a cup of coffee when it comes to anyone else's lives but your own.

How is that so hard to understand?

Ah, using the supreme court as moral validation I guess?

Beats 2000 year old fairy tales

You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day

 

[shader]

So far in this thread, Planned Parenthood has been called baby murderers, monsters, and compared to Mengele.

How can we have an honest and rational discussion when this sort of rhetoric is used?

What if our honest opinion is that they are murderers? Why is this so hard to understand?

Because it isn't. It's a dishonest opinion, I believe.

Earlier in this thread Ka El, who is as pro-life as anyone here, stated that he hoped that women who had had abortions in the past and now regretted that decision were counseled. That's not the way we treat murderers in our society. Sure, you have ministers visit them on death row, but first you make sure they ARE on death row, or facing a long prison sentence.

I don't believe that any of you pro-lifers would ever call for imprisonment or death as a proper punishment for women who commit abortion or doctors who commit abortion or, in this case, people who offer consultation to women who are considering abortion. And that's why I believe that when you call them murderers, it's dishonest.

This isn't really logical, Tim. First of all, having an abortion doesn't lead to a death sentence or imprisonment in our society. So no, I don't think we should go back and put all women who had abortions in jail. Personally I don't really care what the laws are, and I don't go around trying to get the laws changed. I can't control who thinks what, and I certainly have no idea what the current popular opinion on abortion is, as if that matters.

But I still think it's murder, morally. It's not a dishonest opinion. It's far more rational than the popoular opinion, which has no rational belief behind it, no tangible life/no-life line. If it's murder to kill a human ten months after conception, it's murder 6 months, 3 months, etc.

Then to add this story to it, the selling and profiting of body parts, from the destroyed fetuses (I'll use your words if you'd like, since "murdered babies doesn't sit well with you guys)...it's just appalling.

But then, when you go legalizing abortion, it really shouldn't be surprising. I mean, once you've convinced yourself it's not a human, and once you've hidden your morality behind the laws of the land, it probably isn't that big of a deal, and after awhile, it becomes routine and you can laugh about it.

You wrote that you don't care what the laws are, and you're not going around trying to get the laws changed. And yet you call abortion murder. These two statements are incongruous. If you truly believed it was murder, you would move heaven and earth to get the law changed, and you would certainly care what they were. Heck, you might even justify the bombing of Planned Parenthood clinics. Such an action would save lives.

The fact that you do none of these things indicates to me that, deep down, you recognize that while you call abortion murder, it really isn't equal to other more conventional uses of the term.

Me thinking something is murder doesn't mean I'd "move heaven and earth" to get the law changed. I won't go all biblical on you, but I don't personally think Christians should be concerned with changing laws and getting involved in politics. Stay out of it, as Jesus did.

I think it's morally wrong, and I feel it's murder. When I use the word murder, I am speaking from a moral and biblical perspective, not a "rules of the United States" perspective.

 

[shader]

I honestly think that the people living 200 years from now will look back at abortion as a barbaric practice. (These future people only get pregnant when intentional as their birth control is rock solid).

This is very interesting.

But isn't it ironic that most of the same people who currently find abortion to be barbaric are also typically opposed to birth control?

Seriously? Who is against birth control, aside from catholics (who probably aren't REALLY against it anymore)?. I mean, I don't think I've ever met someone who has admitted to being against birth control, and I live in Tennessee.

Wasn't that one of the main objections to Obamacare by conservative Christians? That they were "forced" to offer birth control to employees through insurance? Wasn't that the point of the whole Hobby Lobby lawsuit?

I have no idea

 

[(HULK)]

I honestly think that the people living 200 years from now will look back at abortion as a barbaric practice.

I think many people 200 and 2000 years ago felt the same away... but let people make their own decisions.

I'm pretty damn liberterian about most things... but just like we wouldn't let people murder their neighbors, or punch a baby on the street, or whatever else, we must make laws that prevent one person's own decisions from infringing upon the rights of others. I personally feel like the unborn should have the same rights as the rest of us. They're a life, and I believe in respecting and valuing life whenever possible. I'd rather us throw money at programs to reduce the number of abortions (ie education and free birth control) than plenty of things we currently throw money at.

Barbaric <<< / >>> Personhood

What defines personhood then? I'm listening.

Full status under the law. Like a social security # and if anyone harms him/her the police will fully investigate and the government will prosecute.

The law does not define right and wrong.

I'm trying to have a Kohlberg Level 5/6 conversation, not stage 4.

 

[timschochet]

When is the moment a life begins? When it leaves it's mother's body seems like an arbitrary choice.

When it develops a sense of self makes some sense, but that is typically 6 or 7 months after birth, and I don't think most of us are okay with intentionally putting down a 3 month old.

When it has a brain? If it doesn't have a sense of self, why does having the organ that will eventually give it one matter? When it has a heart? Thats completely arbitrary as well. When it can survive on its own outside the mother? I don't think thats great either cause I've never met an infant that could survive without constant care.

At conception seems like the most logical option to me.

It's the only rational option, in my opinion. Every other line is completely arbitrary and ridiculous, and birth is perhaps the most ridiculous of them all (although I doubt anyone really thinks it's ok to have an abortion at 8 months or later..for some reason)

Again, I am in full agreement with you here. My own rationale for keeping abortion legal has never touched on the question of when life begins.

 

[shader]

When is the moment a life begins? When it leaves it's mother's body seems like an arbitrary choice.

When it develops a sense of self makes some sense, but that is typically 6 or 7 months after birth, and I don't think most of us are okay with intentionally putting down a 3 month old.

When it has a brain? If it doesn't have a sense of self, why does having the organ that will eventually give it one matter? When it has a heart? Thats completely arbitrary as well. When it can survive on its own outside the mother? I don't think thats great either cause I've never met an infant that could survive without constant care.

At conception seems like the most logical option to me.

Why do you think conception is less arbitrary than viability? Or birth?

Birth is ridiculously arbitrary. A baby could easily survive at 8.5 months. Meaning it's the same exact "being", it just happens to be inside a woman. It doesn't automagically become a baby when it passes through the birth canal. It already was one.

 

[(HULK)]

When is the moment a life begins? When it leaves it's mother's body seems like an arbitrary choice.

When it develops a sense of self makes some sense, but that is typically 6 or 7 months after birth, and I don't think most of us are okay with intentionally putting down a 3 month old.

When it has a brain? If it doesn't have a sense of self, why does having the organ that will eventually give it one matter? When it has a heart? Thats completely arbitrary as well. When it can survive on its own outside the mother? I don't think thats great either cause I've never met an infant that could survive without constant care.

At conception seems like the most logical option to me.

Why do you think conception is less arbitrary than viability? Or birth?

The person or future person in question begins existing at that moment.

They don't suddenly exist at birth.

As I said, the only other rationale point is when they become self aware. But, since that doesn't happen until at least half a year after birth, I can't see people supporting that position.

 

[timschochet]

So far in this thread, Planned Parenthood has been called baby murderers, monsters, and compared to Mengele.

How can we have an honest and rational discussion when this sort of rhetoric is used?

What if our honest opinion is that they are murderers? Why is this so hard to understand?

Because it isn't. It's a dishonest opinion, I believe.

Earlier in this thread Ka El, who is as pro-life as anyone here, stated that he hoped that women who had had abortions in the past and now regretted that decision were counseled. That's not the way we treat murderers in our society. Sure, you have ministers visit them on death row, but first you make sure they ARE on death row, or facing a long prison sentence.

I don't believe that any of you pro-lifers would ever call for imprisonment or death as a proper punishment for women who commit abortion or doctors who commit abortion or, in this case, people who offer consultation to women who are considering abortion. And that's why I believe that when you call them murderers, it's dishonest.

This isn't really logical, Tim. First of all, having an abortion doesn't lead to a death sentence or imprisonment in our society. So no, I don't think we should go back and put all women who had abortions in jail. Personally I don't really care what the laws are, and I don't go around trying to get the laws changed. I can't control who thinks what, and I certainly have no idea what the current popular opinion on abortion is, as if that matters.

But I still think it's murder, morally. It's not a dishonest opinion. It's far more rational than the popoular opinion, which has no rational belief behind it, no tangible life/no-life line. If it's murder to kill a human ten months after conception, it's murder 6 months, 3 months, etc.

Then to add this story to it, the selling and profiting of body parts, from the destroyed fetuses (I'll use your words if you'd like, since "murdered babies doesn't sit well with you guys)...it's just appalling.

But then, when you go legalizing abortion, it really shouldn't be surprising. I mean, once you've convinced yourself it's not a human, and once you've hidden your morality behind the laws of the land, it probably isn't that big of a deal, and after awhile, it becomes routine and you can laugh about it.

You wrote that you don't care what the laws are, and you're not going around trying to get the laws changed. And yet you call abortion murder. These two statements are incongruous. If you truly believed it was murder, you would move heaven and earth to get the law changed, and you would certainly care what they were. Heck, you might even justify the bombing of Planned Parenthood clinics. Such an action would save lives.

The fact that you do none of these things indicates to me that, deep down, you recognize that while you call abortion murder, it really isn't equal to other more conventional uses of the term.

Me thinking something is murder doesn't mean I'd "move heaven and earth" to get the law changed. I won't go all biblical on you, but I don't personally think Christians should be concerned with changing laws and getting involved in politics. Stay out of it, as Jesus did.

I think it's morally wrong, and I feel it's murder. When I use the word murder, I am speaking from a moral and biblical perspective, not a "rules of the United States" perspective.

In your opinion, were Christians wrong to start the abolition movement and fight slavery? How about the Christian ministers that gave their lives fighting Nazism, like Dietrich Boenhoffer? Or the Christians that marched for civil rights and against Jim Crow?

Based on your perspective, they should all have done nothing, is that correct?

 

[BigSteelThrill]

I honestly think that the people living 200 years from now will look back at abortion as a barbaric practice.

I think many people 200 and 2000 years ago felt the same away... but let people make their own decisions.

I'm pretty damn liberterian about most things... but just like we wouldn't let people murder their neighbors, or punch a baby on the street, or whatever else, we must make laws that prevent one person's own decisions from infringing upon the rights of others. I personally feel like the unborn should have the same rights as the rest of us. They're a life, and I believe in respecting and valuing life whenever possible. I'd rather us throw money at programs to reduce the number of abortions (ie education and free birth control) than plenty of things we currently throw money at.

Barbaric <<< / >>> Personhood

What defines personhood then? I'm listening.

Full status under the law. Like a social security # and if anyone harms him/her the police will fully investigate and the government will prosecute.

The law does not define right and wrong.

I'm trying to have a Kohlberg Level 5/6 conversation, not stage 4.

 

[shader]

I will say I personally don't mean to get fired up about this subject, and at times I call people murderers, which isn't helpful to the discussion. It's a sensitive subject, and there aren't many subjects that anger me this much. But I do have to respect the fact that other people have different viewpoints, and have (even though I can't understand it at all) somehow gotten past the moral issues with abortion that I have.

I don't think their actions are right, but you attract more bees with honey, so I need to work on my approach on this subject.

 

[whoknew]

When is the moment a life begins? When it leaves it's mother's body seems like an arbitrary choice.

When it develops a sense of self makes some sense, but that is typically 6 or 7 months after birth, and I don't think most of us are okay with intentionally putting down a 3 month old.

When it has a brain? If it doesn't have a sense of self, why does having the organ that will eventually give it one matter? When it has a heart? Thats completely arbitrary as well. When it can survive on its own outside the mother? I don't think thats great either cause I've never met an infant that could survive without constant care.

At conception seems like the most logical option to me.

Why do you think conception is less arbitrary than viability? Or birth?

The person or future person in question begins existing at that moment.

They don't suddenly exist at birth.

As I said, the only other rationale point is when they become self aware. But, since that doesn't happen until at least half a year after birth, I can't see people supporting that position.

That's begging the question. You are assuming that a fetus is a human life without proving its a human life.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

ftr: it is the people who define the law. so they define themselves in regards to any universal personhood status.

 

[Scoresman]

BRB. Gotta go murder a million or so sperm.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

BRB. Gotta go murder a million or so sperm.

actually, for you its a self-hi-five....

 

[timschochet]

I will say I personally don't mean to get fired up about this subject, and at times I call people murderers, which isn't helpful to the discussion. It's a sensitive subject, and there aren't many subjects that anger me this much. But I do have to respect the fact that other people have different viewpoints, and have (even though I can't understand it at all) somehow gotten past the moral issues with abortion that I have.

I don't think their actions are right, but you attract more bees with honey, so I need to work on my approach on this subject.

And yet again, you're only confirming my viewpoint.

We're talking about murder here (according to you.) Not some random act, open to interpretation, but MURDER. If you regard something as murder, you don't go around respecting opposing viewpoints. Our society correctly regards murder as the worst crime someone can commit.

 

[shader]

So far in this thread, Planned Parenthood has been called baby murderers, monsters, and compared to Mengele.

How can we have an honest and rational discussion when this sort of rhetoric is used?

What if our honest opinion is that they are murderers? Why is this so hard to understand?

Because it isn't. It's a dishonest opinion, I believe.

Earlier in this thread Ka El, who is as pro-life as anyone here, stated that he hoped that women who had had abortions in the past and now regretted that decision were counseled. That's not the way we treat murderers in our society. Sure, you have ministers visit them on death row, but first you make sure they ARE on death row, or facing a long prison sentence.

I don't believe that any of you pro-lifers would ever call for imprisonment or death as a proper punishment for women who commit abortion or doctors who commit abortion or, in this case, people who offer consultation to women who are considering abortion. And that's why I believe that when you call them murderers, it's dishonest.

This isn't really logical, Tim. First of all, having an abortion doesn't lead to a death sentence or imprisonment in our society. So no, I don't think we should go back and put all women who had abortions in jail. Personally I don't really care what the laws are, and I don't go around trying to get the laws changed. I can't control who thinks what, and I certainly have no idea what the current popular opinion on abortion is, as if that matters.

But I still think it's murder, morally. It's not a dishonest opinion. It's far more rational than the popoular opinion, which has no rational belief behind it, no tangible life/no-life line. If it's murder to kill a human ten months after conception, it's murder 6 months, 3 months, etc.

Then to add this story to it, the selling and profiting of body parts, from the destroyed fetuses (I'll use your words if you'd like, since "murdered babies doesn't sit well with you guys)...it's just appalling.

But then, when you go legalizing abortion, it really shouldn't be surprising. I mean, once you've convinced yourself it's not a human, and once you've hidden your morality behind the laws of the land, it probably isn't that big of a deal, and after awhile, it becomes routine and you can laugh about it.

You wrote that you don't care what the laws are, and you're not going around trying to get the laws changed. And yet you call abortion murder. These two statements are incongruous. If you truly believed it was murder, you would move heaven and earth to get the law changed, and you would certainly care what they were. Heck, you might even justify the bombing of Planned Parenthood clinics. Such an action would save lives.

The fact that you do none of these things indicates to me that, deep down, you recognize that while you call abortion murder, it really isn't equal to other more conventional uses of the term.

Me thinking something is murder doesn't mean I'd "move heaven and earth" to get the law changed. I won't go all biblical on you, but I don't personally think Christians should be concerned with changing laws and getting involved in politics. Stay out of it, as Jesus did.

I think it's morally wrong, and I feel it's murder. When I use the word murder, I am speaking from a moral and biblical perspective, not a "rules of the United States" perspective.

In your opinion, were Christians wrong to start the abolition movement and fight slavery? How about the Christian ministers that gave their lives fighting Nazism, like Dietrich Boenhoffer? Or the Christians that marched for civil rights and against Jim Crow?

Based on your perspective, they should all have done nothing, is that correct?

We would get WAY off-topic if I got into this. My first thought is "weren't there "christian" ministers who were Nazis"? But as I said, I don't want to go off track and get into what my beliefs are on appropriate Christian responses to slavery, Nazi's and civil rights.

 

[shader]

When is the moment a life begins? When it leaves it's mother's body seems like an arbitrary choice.

When it develops a sense of self makes some sense, but that is typically 6 or 7 months after birth, and I don't think most of us are okay with intentionally putting down a 3 month old.

When it has a brain? If it doesn't have a sense of self, why does having the organ that will eventually give it one matter? When it has a heart? Thats completely arbitrary as well. When it can survive on its own outside the mother? I don't think thats great either cause I've never met an infant that could survive without constant care.

At conception seems like the most logical option to me.

Why do you think conception is less arbitrary than viability? Or birth?

The person or future person in question begins existing at that moment.

They don't suddenly exist at birth.

As I said, the only other rationale point is when they become self aware. But, since that doesn't happen until at least half a year after birth, I can't see people supporting that position.

That's begging the question. You are assuming that a fetus is a human life without proving its a human life.

 

[whoknew]

I will say I personally don't mean to get fired up about this subject, and at times I call people murderers, which isn't helpful to the discussion. It's a sensitive subject, and there aren't many subjects that anger me this much. But I do have to respect the fact that other people have different viewpoints, and have (even though I can't understand it at all) somehow gotten past the moral issues with abortion that I have.

I don't think their actions are right, but you attract more bees with honey, so I need to work on my approach on this subject.

And yet again, you're only confirming my viewpoint.

We're talking about murder here (according to you.) Not some random act, open to interpretation, but MURDER. If you regard something as murder, you don't go around respecting opposing viewpoints. Our society correctly regards murder as the worst crime someone can commit.

Murder isn't always black and white, Tim. Reasonable people can easily disagree on whether an act is murder. Just look at all the discussions we've had on this board and in this country of cops killing people.

 

[shader]

I will say I personally don't mean to get fired up about this subject, and at times I call people murderers, which isn't helpful to the discussion. It's a sensitive subject, and there aren't many subjects that anger me this much. But I do have to respect the fact that other people have different viewpoints, and have (even though I can't understand it at all) somehow gotten past the moral issues with abortion that I have.

I don't think their actions are right, but you attract more bees with honey, so I need to work on my approach on this subject.

And yet again, you're only confirming my viewpoint.

We're talking about murder here (according to you.) Not some random act, open to interpretation, but MURDER. If you regard something as murder, you don't go around respecting opposing viewpoints. Our society correctly regards murder as the worst crime someone can commit.

I don't respect the viewpoint...but I respect the fact that they have a viewpoint. And the best way to perhaps change or attract people to your viewpoint is not to call them all murderers.

I think it's murder when the US drone bombs some hospital and kills a bunch of kids in the name of fighting terrorism. But I'm not going to go protesting, or try and change the laws...There are a lot of things that are far out of my control. In the end, God is the judge.

 

[TPW]

The next thing you know we'll be finding out that they've been using protein from aborted children in food additives.

Modern day abortionists and their supporters are no different than those who sacrificed their children to Molech thousands of years ago for their own selfish purposes.

 

[Scoresman]

The next thing you know we'll be finding out that they've been using protein from aborted children in food additives.

Modern day abortionists and their supporters are no different than those who sacrificed their children to Molech thousands of years ago for their own selfish purposes.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

Unchurched Leftist Abortionists?

 

[tommyboy]

I've never really understood being ok with activity X if it's done for $0 but being against activity X if it's done for >$0.

Both are disgusting but it poses a great moral conflict of interest if PP is trying to profit off this practice.

They're not.

Let's be clear: Planned Parenthood is a non-profit organization. There are no investors who get a dividend, no stock market listing, no salaries that are dependent on income, NO INCOME. Any money received by PP, either through donations, fees, or government aid, goes straight into PP. It's deliberately dishonest to suggest that anyone is attempting to "profit" here.

newsflash, being a non profit doesn't mean you don't make a profit, or even try to.

 

[timschochet]

I will say I personally don't mean to get fired up about this subject, and at times I call people murderers, which isn't helpful to the discussion. It's a sensitive subject, and there aren't many subjects that anger me this much. But I do have to respect the fact that other people have different viewpoints, and have (even though I can't understand it at all) somehow gotten past the moral issues with abortion that I have.

I don't think their actions are right, but you attract more bees with honey, so I need to work on my approach on this subject.

And yet again, you're only confirming my viewpoint.

We're talking about murder here (according to you.) Not some random act, open to interpretation, but MURDER. If you regard something as murder, you don't go around respecting opposing viewpoints. Our society correctly regards murder as the worst crime someone can commit.

Murder isn't always black and white, Tim. Reasonable people can easily disagree on whether an act is murder. Just look at all the discussions we've had on this board and in this country of cops killing people.

That's true.

But if you believe something IS murder, you don't go around saying "Yeah it's murder, but I'm not going to try to change the laws, and I respect that people disagree with me, and I don't want to see anyone punished for it." That's not an appropriate response to murder.

 

[[icon]]

The next thing you know we'll be finding out that they've been using protein from aborted children in food additives.

Modern day abortionists and their supporters are no different than those who sacrificed their children to Molech thousands of years ago for their own selfish purposes.

Mmmmmm

 

[joffer]

The next thing you know we'll be finding out that they've been using protein from aborted children in food additives.

Modern day abortionists and their supporters are no different than those who sacrificed their children to Molech thousands of years ago for their own selfish purposes.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

Unchurched Leftist Abortionists Evolutionist?

fixed

 

[timschochet]

I will say I personally don't mean to get fired up about this subject, and at times I call people murderers, which isn't helpful to the discussion. It's a sensitive subject, and there aren't many subjects that anger me this much. But I do have to respect the fact that other people have different viewpoints, and have (even though I can't understand it at all) somehow gotten past the moral issues with abortion that I have.

I don't think their actions are right, but you attract more bees with honey, so I need to work on my approach on this subject.

And yet again, you're only confirming my viewpoint.

We're talking about murder here (according to you.) Not some random act, open to interpretation, but MURDER. If you regard something as murder, you don't go around respecting opposing viewpoints. Our society correctly regards murder as the worst crime someone can commit.

I don't respect the viewpoint...but I respect the fact that they have a viewpoint. And the best way to perhaps change or attract people to your viewpoint is not to call them all murderers.

I think it's murder when the US drone bombs some hospital and kills a bunch of kids in the name of fighting terrorism. But I'm not going to go protesting, or try and change the laws...There are a lot of things that are far out of my control. In the end, God is the judge.

Wait- I just remembered that you are a Jehovah's Witness, right? So your passive view of Christianity makes more sense to me now. My apologies if I suggested that you were being inconsistent.

As a general rule, I believe that religious Christians have fought the good fight throughout our history- against slavery, against Jim Crow, against injustice of all kinds. Their fight against abortion is mostly rhetorical and inconsistent, IMO, which suggests to me that they don't regard it quite as evil as they say they do (and believe they do.)

 

[TPW]

The next thing you know we'll be finding out that they've been using protein from aborted children in food additives.

Modern day abortionists and their supporters are no different than those who sacrificed their children to Molech thousands of years ago for their own selfish purposes.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

Unchurched Leftist Abortionists?

Molech worshippers sacrificed their firstborn believing that financial prosperity would then be assured. How many Americans make the same decision today for very similar reasons?

 

[timschochet]

I think it's Moloch.

 

[Scoresman]

The next thing you know we'll be finding out that they've been using protein from aborted children in food additives.

Modern day abortionists and their supporters are no different than those who sacrificed their children to Molech thousands of years ago for their own selfish purposes.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

Unchurched Leftist Abortionists?

Molech worshippers sacrificed their firstborn believing that financial prosperity would then be assured. How many Americans make the same decision today for very similar reasons?

My guess is zero.

 

[Van Dyman]

The next thing you know we'll be finding out that they've been using protein from aborted children in food additives.

Modern day abortionists and their supporters are no different than those who sacrificed their children to Molech thousands of years ago for their own selfish purposes.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

Unchurched Leftist Abortionists?

Molech worshippers sacrificed their firstborn believing that financial prosperity would then be assured. How many Americans make the same decision today for very similar reasons?

Exactly zero?

 

[dickey moe]

Sickening, but no one should be surprised by any of this.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

 

[timschochet]

The next thing you know we'll be finding out that they've been using protein from aborted children in food additives.

Modern day abortionists and their supporters are no different than those who sacrificed their children to Molech thousands of years ago for their own selfish purposes.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

Unchurched Leftist Abortionists?

Molech worshippers sacrificed their firstborn believing that financial prosperity would then be assured. How many Americans make the same decision today for very similar reasons?

My guess is zero.

Well now wait a moment. How much cash are we talking about here?

J/K

 

[TPW]

The next thing you know we'll be finding out that they've been using protein from aborted children in food additives.

Modern day abortionists and their supporters are no different than those who sacrificed their children to Molech thousands of years ago for their own selfish purposes.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

Unchurched Leftist Abortionists?

Molech worshippers sacrificed their firstborn believing that financial prosperity would then be assured. How many Americans make the same decision today for very similar reasons?

My guess is zero.

Because it's just a lump of unviable flesh that's not anywhere close to being a human being, right? How interesting then that Planned Parenthood is in the business of selling pieces of unviable flesh that are not anywhere close to being a human being for human related medical research purposes.

 

[tommyboy]

I honestly think that the people living 200 years from now will look back at abortion as a barbaric practice. (These future people only get pregnant when intentional as their birth control is rock solid).

This is very interesting.

But isn't it ironic that most of the same people who currently find abortion to be barbaric are also typically opposed to birth control?

says who?