Heisenberg23
Footballguy
Why do NFL coaches make things hard. Have been gashing Bills this drive on runs. Less than a yard run Barkley on 3rd and 4th down. Instead some Bs Tyrod Taylor rolls out then FG. Mind boggling to me
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Post here when coaches do something you disagree with (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter GreenNGold
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Tau837
Footballguy
And now they need a TD to win. Had they kicked a FG at the end of the first half, the rest of the game might have been different, but it also might have put them in position to win on a final drive FG.
For that matter, why did BUF just kick the extra point to go up by 5. They could have gone for 2 to go up 6, which might have enabled a tie with a NYG TD and missed XP. There is literally no difference between 4 and 5 point margin. But a 6 point margin provides a slight benefit.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
That part isn't even "analytics." It's a chart. Literally tells you yes/no based on the differential. We're not building rockets here.
If that is the case, then it's Malik-Willis-esque in terms of lack of game awareness and from a veteran QB, no less. Nonetheless, the NYG coach himself watched the clock tick down from 40 to 27 seconds (the camera was square on him) before calling timeout a few plays before that. He was clearly making up his mind about what to do, like it was some kind of novel idea. There's plenty of blame to go around. And, mind you, I am a Steeler's fan and couldn't care less about the Giants. I'd be livid if I supported that team.
Was it the right call for Jets to score the TD at the end of the game the Eagles let them?
Obviously, worked out for them.
Obviously, worked out for them.
I just kept thinking with that Eagles offense and big play hitters like Brown it was setting Eagles up to be heroes.
From a locker room angle though, seems like scoring the TD was for sure the right move. Trust your defense.
From a locker room angle though, seems like scoring the TD was for sure the right move. Trust your defense.
If this loss helps the Giants get a QB like Drake May, all may be forgiven in April.
I watched it in real time, and I think Breece thought about it at the last second, right before he crossed the goal line
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Yeah, that blew my mind as well. How do coaches not have this figured out by now?
Pip's Invitation
Footballguy
I believe the Eagles had 2 time outs left, so it’s not as clear cut as if they had 0.
All I know is that immediately after the interception, I said, it would have been better for our chances if we had let the defender score.
We talked about this as the Eagles game wore down. If they tried to hold the Jets, the Eagles had two timeouts so they could stop it twice. If the Jets run on third down to kill the clock and then kick a FG, the Eagles would have trailed by one. The clock probably would've been sitting at under a minute, though, assuming the Jets milked it. So the two choices for the Eagles would be: 1) let them score a TD and be down by 5 or 6 with 1:45 left on the clock, two timeouts and you need a TD to win, or 2) if you hold the Jets, down by 1, under a minute to go, no timeouts and you need a FG to win. Not sure if analytics says those are about 50/50 but it feels that way to me. Does it matter that Jake Elliot missed a FG earlier in the four quarter, possibly. In my opinion, the Jets were right to score. Go ahead, get the five-point lead and play defense one last time.
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
No idea what the analytics say there, but applying basic logic, I think it's likely a close call. Boils down to whether you would prefer to be down 6 with 1:45 and two timeouts or down two with less than a minute and no timeouts. All I know is that even before the final Philly drive, I didn't have much confidence that they were going to do much against the Jets D.
ETA: Just realized @pecorino made the same points in more detail n the post immediately above mine
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Runkle
Footballguy
The call there is too close to rely purely on analytics. You'd have to take into account how the teams had been playing through the day, tiredness, all the factors. Can't just look at a chart and say "this is the right call for sure". At some point you gotta go with your gut on whether or not you're better off letting the defense do their best.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I for one applaud the Giants for running at the end of the first half and passing at the end of the second half. Those were great decisions, and we probably would have lost if they had done anything differently.
Chemical X
Footballguy
good analysis, i thought about these scenarios too. The bigger scenario was philly throwing the 3rd down pick. If they run the ball and run .10 off the clock after the 2 minute warning, they likely take a delay of game after the play clock. so, 2,00 - .10 3rd down play -.40 delay means they are now punting with 1.10 left up 2. Take .10 off for the punt and the NYJ have the ball around the 10, no TOs left and Wilson with 1 minute left. Zuerlein has been good, so say he gets a 57 yard chance if the NYJ get to the Eagle 40. BUT, i mentioned, the prior 18 NYJ plays they gained a net 19 yards. This seemed a no brainer move given how the Philly D vs Jet O was playing out.
That said, if I was the NYJ, i score the TD. It was 1.46 left and 1st down for the NYJ with Philly having 2 TOs left at the Philly 8. So, NYJ know Philly will let them score. Snap, take a knee, -.5 TO, snap, take a knee, -5 TO, snap take a knee and run the 40 second clock down to kick at 39 seconds. So, -.10 and the play takes 45 seconds. So, NYJ kick off with .51 left. Out of the end zone, so Philly starts from their own 25, no TOs......realistically needing to get to the NYJ 40. That's only 35 yards and the way Hurts can run, i'd be scared. I'd rather Philly needs a TD.
BUT, a missing clock scenario is Hall runs and stops at the inch line. Now, Philly needs a TO and the NYJ are on the inch line. I think the NYJ could've scored a TD AND left Philly with no TOs done properly. I mean, what does Philly do if Hall goes down at the inch line? If they call TO do the NYJ then try for a score? At the very least the NYJ had the same scenarios to score a TD while making Philly burn TOs.
Bad coaching on both sides. I expect it from Saleh though.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
There was a little hesi there for sure.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Breece Hall doesn't get to score much so I doubt he is falling down a yard short.
I hate to be that way about it but I always take the points, the Jets were behind when he scored, anything could go wrong on a FG try, so I take the points.
I think Hall sliding at the one is probably the best analytical play. However, at that point, the Jets are still down two, they're killing the clock, and they may end up relying on a FG to win. With the Jets being the Jets, I wouldn't be surprised if they found a way to mess that up somehow (see also: the New York Giants at the end of the half last night.) As I claimed before, if I'm a Jets fan, I want a TD there independent of what the clock says.
doeseatplace
Footballguy
With a McCarthy vs. Staley matchup, Mods may want to think about pinning this thread tonight for ease of access
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
I feel like there's also a school of thought that says, outside of situations where it's obvious that you're better off not scoring (eg, end of last year's Super Bowl), sometimes it's best not to overthink it. If you're losing and you have a chance to not be losing, you should take it.
Not exactly the same thing, since Seattle was down 4 and needed a TD, but I remember in the Pats-Seahawks Super Bowl, on the play before the Butler INT, Hightower made a great tackle just as Lynch was about to score. In the moment I wondered if he should have let him. And of course, after that, as time ticked down and Belichick refused to call timeout, it seemed like a dumb move, since everyone was thinking he should make sure he would have time for a final drive after the Seahawks took the lead. But my theory has always been that the reason BB didn't call one was because he was still winning, and his focus was going to be on keeping that lead, not worrying what would happen after he fell behind.
Do I know that's what happened? Nope, and AFAIK Belichick has never addressed it directly. But that's my theory and I'm sticking to it
Not exactly the same thing, since Seattle was down 4 and needed a TD, but I remember in the Pats-Seahawks Super Bowl, on the play before the Butler INT, Hightower made a great tackle just as Lynch was about to score. In the moment I wondered if he should have let him. And of course, after that, as time ticked down and Belichick refused to call timeout, it seemed like a dumb move, since everyone was thinking he should make sure he would have time for a final drive after the Seahawks took the lead. But my theory has always been that the reason BB didn't call one was because he was still winning, and his focus was going to be on keeping that lead, not worrying what would happen after he fell behind.
Do I know that's what happened? Nope, and AFAIK Belichick has never addressed it directly. But that's my theory and I'm sticking to it
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
Weird move by McCarthy at the end of the first half. Dallas, in the red zone with two TOs, completes a short pass to Pollard and seems to call time out with 8 seconds left. But then it turns out McCarthy let the lay clock run down to 3 seconds and kicked the FG. Why not take one more shot at the end zone before kicking?
Awful decision. Its actually a bit worse than that. The clock operator, knowing the correct play was to stop the clock and take a shot in the endzone, actually stopped the clock on his own. When they gave McCarthy the option to take the TO he declined and instead kicked the fg. ALSO in the second half Herbert got what looked like a first down and instead of challenging it at least they went for it on 4th and one and of course came up empty.
Runkle
Footballguy
I really don't understand how they went pass on the untimed down from the 1. After running so well all night. Plenty of time to get the goal-line package on the field and just run straight ahead.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Ok, so at the end of the half McCarthy has 8 seconds. Time for a shot to the EZ before halftime. 7-7 game.
He tells the ref to run it to 00:03, and kicks the FG.
I’ve never seen anything like it in a good weather game.
He tells the ref to run it to 00:03, and kicks the FG.
I’ve never seen anything like it in a good weather game.
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
That’s because you didn’t bother scrolling up two posts above yours where we were already discussing it
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Doesn’t mean I’ve seen anything like it, to be fair.That’s because you didn’t bother scrolling up two posts above yours where we were already discussing it
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
ETA: Here's what it looked like: https://x.com/NFCNorthNewss/status/1716626323341275198?s=20
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ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
Not to be outdone, Steve Wilks called a blitz with 15 seconds left in the half and the Vikings out of timeouts. Then Ward goes for the INT when all he needs to do is tackle Addison, who wrestles the ball away and then scores a 60-yard TD
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
We need to start tracking these things and vote for biggest bonehead coaching call at the end of the season. That defensive call at the end of the half is number 1 to me so far this season. Like a kid playing Madden on a sack/fumble cheat code.
Pip's Invitation
Footballguy
Reminds me of a few years ago when the Raiders blitzed on the last play of the game against the Jets(?) and gave up the winning TD when all they had to do was keep them out of the end zone from 40-ish yards away.
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
I think it was the other way around. Gregg Williams was the Jets DC and he got roasted for the call
titusbramble
Footballguy
It is easier to just rename the thread as "Other than that guy who didn't take a knee in Miami/Georgia Tech, what coaching decisions do you disagree with", and rename it in the incredibly unlikely event something outdoes it. Whoever's in the thread title in February wins.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
I have 4 or 5 relating to Brian Daboll but since they had (-11) net passing yards going into OT I'll pass
Snoopy
Footballguy
But do they pass?
Vrabel announced a rotation at QB. Levis did OK at this point. Willis went in to boos. Levis returned and played well. After the game several Titans told reporters that wasn't right fans gotta act better. Fans responding with the cliche we buy tickets and can do what we want and....totally wrecking an impressive first game and the followup fun.
Vrabel set that up every bit of it.
He needs to now apologize to fans and take the blame.
Malik has been such a good boy all the way. Vrabel needs to apologize tomorrow and shut this down
Vrabel set that up every bit of it.
He needs to now apologize to fans and take the blame.
Malik has been such a good boy all the way. Vrabel needs to apologize tomorrow and shut this down
Re-watching the Rams/Cowboys game, one of my biggest frustrations with defensive coaches is when they just run their scheme independent of what they are up against.
Dallas was regularly doubling Kupp, and locking Gilmore on Puka, and saying our pass rush will get there before we lose either of those situations, and that's how you end up with Darrel Henderson leading the team in receiving.
On the flip side, the Rams treated everyone like they were equal and applied the same level of attention to Gallup as they did to Lamb, and shocker, they couldn't stop Lamb.
I'm not saying coaching pro football is easy, but you don't have to make it harder on yourself due to stubborn idiocy.
Dallas was regularly doubling Kupp, and locking Gilmore on Puka, and saying our pass rush will get there before we lose either of those situations, and that's how you end up with Darrel Henderson leading the team in receiving.
On the flip side, the Rams treated everyone like they were equal and applied the same level of attention to Gallup as they did to Lamb, and shocker, they couldn't stop Lamb.
I'm not saying coaching pro football is easy, but you don't have to make it harder on yourself due to stubborn idiocy.
Instinctive
Footballguy
Had to find this thread after watching Dallas call timeout at the start of the second quarter when it's 2nd and 20 just to avoid a 5-yard delay of game penalty. AND THEN CALL A DRAW UP THE MIDDLE.
1. Timeouts used for basically anything other than to stop the clock at the end of either half are wasteful - either you messed up personnel and you're about to give up a TD, or you shouldn't be using it. Five yards aren't worth the timeout. Obvious exceptions for things like 3rd and 1 from the 2 yard line, but even then it means you didnt have your personnel in on time and it's a waste.
2. If you're going to convert a first down (which thankfully they did!) you're gonna be able to do it from 2nd and 25 about as often as you are from 2nd and 20.
3. A draw play for 3-4 yards on 2nd and 20 is idiotic.
1. Timeouts used for basically anything other than to stop the clock at the end of either half are wasteful - either you messed up personnel and you're about to give up a TD, or you shouldn't be using it. Five yards aren't worth the timeout. Obvious exceptions for things like 3rd and 1 from the 2 yard line, but even then it means you didnt have your personnel in on time and it's a waste.
2. If you're going to convert a first down (which thankfully they did!) you're gonna be able to do it from 2nd and 25 about as often as you are from 2nd and 20.
3. A draw play for 3-4 yards on 2nd and 20 is idiotic.
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
Seemed like there were way too many late game targets from Dak to Jalen Tolbert instead of Lamb. I get that you can’t always get it to your best guy, but Tolbert was covered on those plays, too
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Stop challenging marginal plays where the upside of winning is less than the downside of losing a timeout.
I'm looking at you Sean McDermott. 1st and 10 when you're near midfield and down two TDs. That 9 yard possible reception isn't worth risking the TO. Line up for 2nd and 10.
I'm looking at you Sean McDermott. 1st and 10 when you're near midfield and down two TDs. That 9 yard possible reception isn't worth risking the TO. Line up for 2nd and 10.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Totally agreed. The Mixon 1st down at the end made it moot, but losing that timeout over a challenge that had very minimal upside was just not smart.
rockaction
Footballguy
The Jets blitzed the Raiders with Gregg Williams at the helm of the defense. Henry Ruggs slipped behind the defense, Derek Carr stepped up in the pocket and threw a strike, and the game was over just like that with the Raiders celebrating.
It kept the Jets in the lead for the Trevor Lawrence sweepstakes. They unfortunately would win two games that year and lose the sweepstakes, earning them the choice between Zach Wilson, Justin Fields, Trey Lance, and Mac Jones.
Besides Lawrence, none of those guys really turned out to be very good. Ack, Typical Jets.
Same week they start teaching them not to field punts inside their own 5
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
COMPARE AND CONTRAST
4th and 2
ball on opponents 26
1:47 left
the other team has just used their last timeout
What % of coaches kick a FG there and ask their defense to win the game?
Dan Campbell went for it on 4th down five times today but none were as big as Goff to LaPorta for 6 yards to setup the GW.
I trust Goff - I wanted to finish with the ball
4th and 2
ball on opponents 26
1:47 left
the other team has just used their last timeout
What % of coaches kick a FG there and ask their defense to win the game?
Dan Campbell went for it on 4th down five times today but none were as big as Goff to LaPorta for 6 yards to setup the GW.
I trust Goff - I wanted to finish with the ball
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
Honestly, that one just seems like a no-brainer. There had been 76 points scored, and even without timeouts, Herbert would have had plenty of time to engineer a tying/winning drive. Add in that it was a relatively short distance to convert and not exactly a chip-shot FG.
You're probably right that a lot of coaches would have kicked there. And any who would deserve to be roasted in threads like this one
ChiefD
Footballguy
Mecole Hardman?
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