Post here when coaches do something you disagree with (2 Viewers)

[ignatiusjreilly]

I think the Raiders’ decision to kick a FG down 10  on 4th and 3 with 3:30 left was probably a mistake, but by far the worse move was clocking the ball on 1st and goal with 29 seconds left. Should have had a call ready instead of wasting one of the four downs they needed to save their season

 

[titusbramble]

I think the Raiders’ decision to kick a FG down 10  on 4th and 3 with 3:30 left was probably a mistake, but by far the worse move was clocking the ball on 1st and goal with 29 seconds left. Should have had a call ready instead of wasting one of the four downs they needed to save their season

I don't actually hate either of those calls speaking as a Raiders fan

 

[Ghost Rider]

I think the Raiders’ decision to kick a FG down 10  on 4th and 3 with 3:30 left was probably a mistake, but by far the worse move was clocking the ball on 1st and goal with 29 seconds left. Should have had a call ready instead of wasting one of the four downs they needed to save their season

I disagree about kicking the FG with 3:30 left. Gotta get it to one score and hope you get the ball back.  They did and had a chance to tie it.  

As for the spike at the end, yeah, that was bad, but given that they were in the hurry-up, a veteran like Carr has to have the wits to call a play there since they had time instead of wasting a down.  

 

[smbkrypt24]

I disagree about kicking the FG with 3:30 left. Gotta get it to one score and hope you get the ball back.  They did and had a chance to tie it.  

As for the spike at the end, yeah, that was bad, but given that they were in the hurry-up, a veteran like Carr has to have the wits to call a play there since they had time instead of wasting a down.  

I agree with this.  I was debating this with people I was watching the game with.

My thought process is you got to take the points to have a chance to score later.  If you don't get it there the game is over.  It played out exactly as they wanted after that...having multiple chances to score the TD on the next drive, but just couldn't do it.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

I agree with this.  I was debating this with people I was watching the game with.

My thought process is you got to take the points to have a chance to score later.  If you don't get it there the game is over.  It played out exactly as they wanted after that...having multiple chances to score the TD on the next drive, but just couldn't do it.

The goal in that situation is not to extend the game. The goal is to maximize your win probability. You’re going to need to score a TD at some point, and 4th and 3 from the 10 is a really good opportunity to do so. (Also, if you score there you maintain the possibility of scoring a second TD and winning in regulation. If the game goes to OT your win probability is still below 50%).

As it happened, things pretty much broke their way and they ended up in almost the exact same situation at the end of the game. But I still think passing up that opportunity was a mistake. 

As for the spike, it’s possible there were factors we don’t know about, like needing to get the right lineup on the field or something. But in general, wasting a down in that situation is a bad idea

 

[Cobbler1]

The goal in that situation is not to extend the game. The goal is to maximize your win probability. You’re going to need to score a TD at some point, and 4th and 3 from the 10 is a really good opportunity to do so. (Also, if you score there you maintain the possibility of scoring a second TD and winning in regulation. If the game goes to OT your win probability is still below 50%).

As it happened, things pretty much broke their way and they ended up in almost the exact same situation at the end of the game. But I still think passing up that opportunity was a mistake. 

As for the spike, it’s possible there were factors we don’t know about, like needing to get the right lineup on the field or something. But in general, wasting a down in that situation is a bad idea

Yup I’m pretty sure I’m with you on going for it on 4th and 3 and I’m 100% with you on the spike. I was very surprised they threw away a play there.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

I think Niners should have gone for it on 4th and 1 to to put the game away, but even if they weren’t going to, what they actually did made no sense: come out in shotgun, no hard count, take the delay of game

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

If McCarthy or Moore called that QB draw, then this post belongs in this thread. If Dak audibled to it, it belongs in “Post here when QBs do something you disagree with”. Because man was that stupid

 

[Cobbler1]

If McCarthy or Moore called that QB draw, then this post belongs in this thread. If Dak audibled to it, it belongs in “Post here when QBs do something you disagree with”. Because man was that stupid

I’d be shocked if it weren’t called by the coaches. And I think it can work but needed way better execution. You gotta be aware the ref needs to spot the ball.

 

[Atomic Punk]

I don’t get that call at all. 40 yard line, 14 seconds left ...

Option 1 - run up the middle for 10-12, clock it and you get one shot to the end zone from the 28 yard line.

Option 2 - two end zone shots from the 40.

Is there any question which is better and which has more risk?

 

[styleride85]

I don’t get that call at all. 40 yard line, 14 seconds left ...

Option 1 - run up the middle for 10-12, clock it and you get one shot to the end zone from the 28 yard line.

Option 2 - two end zone shots from the 40.

Is there any question which is better and which has more risk?

Closer to the 24 yard line.  I pick Option 1 all day.  A shot from the 40 is basically a hail mary.

 

[styleride85]

If McCarthy or


Moore


called that QB draw, then this post belongs in this thread. If Dak audibled to it, it belongs in “Post here when QBs do something you disagree with”. Because man was that stupid

I hate all this hindsight stuff in sports.  If Dak hands that ball to the ref 1 second earlier (which would have been easy to do), then that was a fantastic call.  WOuldn't you rather 1 shot to the endzone from the 24 than 2 basically hail mary's from the 41?

Good call, awful execution.

 

[DropKick]

Yup I’m pretty sure I’m with you on going for it on 4th and 3 and I’m 100% with you on the spike. I was very surprised they threw away a play there.

Don't think I've ever seen a team not take the FG in a situation like that.   It gets you to within one score while failure virtually ends the game.   As for the spike, good grief.  Plenty of time left on the clock... no reason to give away a play.

 

[ghostguy123]

I hate all this hindsight stuff in sports.  If Dak hands that ball to the ref 1 second earlier (which would have been easy to do), then that was a fantastic call.  WOuldn't you rather 1 shot to the endzone from the 24 than 2 basically hail mary's from the 41?

Good call, awful execution.

Part of a play calll is understanding the chances of good execution

 

[Cobbler1]

Don't think I've ever seen a team not take the FG in a situation like that.   It gets you to within one score while failure virtually ends the game.   As for the spike, good grief.  Plenty of time left on the clock... no reason to give away a play.

It also necessitates that you gain a whole bunch more yards your next drive needing a td rather than a fg. There’s trade offs both ways.

 

[Atomic Punk]

I seem to recall Madden using 13 seconds as the minimum required after a play is ended to get yourselves lined up, linesman spot the ball and QB spike. With only 14 seconds to run the play and do all of that, the risk was just too great IMO to run that play.

 

[styleride85]

Part of a play calll is understanding the chances of good execution

The chances of execution were pretty high.  I'd say 9 out of 10 times that works.

The chances of a 50 yard bomb hail mary are absolutely awful.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

I seem to recall Madden using 13 seconds as the minimum required after a play is ended to get yourselves lined up, linesman spot the ball and QB spike. With only 14 seconds to run the play and do all of that, the risk was just too great IMO to run that play.

Chris Simms said during the NBC halftime show that when he was in the league he was taught 18 seconds was the cutoff 

 

[mgodbee22]

Maybe I am wrong but I would rather try 2 hail mary's from the 50 then 1 from the 30.  Odd call.

 

[ghostguy123]

The chances of execution were pretty high.  I'd say 9 out of 10 times that works.

The chances of a 50 yard bomb hail mary are absolutely awful.

So QB sneak up the middle is the ONLY play you run there?

 

[ghostguy123]

Why not throw the ball sideways out of bounds before being tackled?

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Why are the Chiefs using trick plays up 35-14 in the fourth quarter? Seems like you should save that stuff for more high leverage situations

 

[belljr]

Why not throw the ball sideways out of bounds before being tackled?

Because it's a fumble and clock doesn't stop and/or a 10 seconds runoff if done to try to save time

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Because it's a fumble and clock doesn't stop and/or a 10 seconds runoff if done to try to save time

Right ever since the Holy Roller the rules basically don’t allow you to fumble strategically late in the game in order to gain some kind of benefit

 

[styleride85]

So QB sneak up the middle is the ONLY play you run there?

they couldn't pass down the middle of the field as that would be way slower.... the sidelines were covered completely.  Yes they could have hail mary'd into the endzone.  

The play was good and it SHOULD have worked if they weren't totally stupid at the end and didn't hand the ball to the ref.   

They were gonna lose anyways, stop acting like this is some big blunder.  

 

[styleride85]

Why not throw the ball sideways out of bounds before being tackled?

Do you actually not know this rule?

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

They were gonna lose anyways, stop acting like this is some big blunder.  

One of my low-key favorite things about this thread is the amount of energy we expend debating decisions that shift teams’ win expectancy from 0.8% to 0.4%. 

When Dak took off I yelled, “What are you doing?” at the TV. (So it wasn’t just hindsight). I thought it was a big risk that didn’t work out, but I do see your point that it could have ended up looking like a genius move if he had just handed the ball to the ref 

 

[zed2283]

Why are the Chiefs using trick plays up 35-14 in the fourth quarter? Seems like you should save that stuff for more high leverage situations

Because Andy Reid is a genius.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Amid all the discussions of Dak’s scramble, we’ve forgotten to give Dallas crap for that bizarre decision after the fake punt to leave the kicking team out on the field, then change their mind and run the offense back on, then get a delay of game penalty. WTF?!?!?!

 

[styleride85]

One of my low-key favorite things about this thread is the amount of energy we expend debating decisions that shift teams’ win expectancy from 0.8% to 0.4%. 

When Dak took off I yelled, “What are you doing?” at the TV. (So it wasn’t just hindsight). I thought it was a big risk that didn’t work out, but I do see your point that it could have ended up looking like a genius move if he had just handed the ball to the ref 

Agree with all this.  People are acting like this decision cost them the game when they had almost no chance anyways.  And then they argue "but this decision made sure they had zero chance".  Almost irrelevant.  SF was going to win that game.

But yes, it would have been a genius move if he simply did what he was supposed to do and hand the ball to the ref.  Judge the decision, ignore the result.

 

[renesauz]

I seem to recall Madden using 13 seconds as the minimum required after a play is ended to get yourselves lined up, linesman spot the ball and QB spike. With only 14 seconds to run the play and do all of that, the risk was just too great IMO to run that play.

This. I didn't like the call, but it wasn't MM worst call of the game.

The play after the successful fake punt was. You can't run 8+ guys on/off at the 14 second mark. The defense ALWAYS has a chance to respond, and the ref MUST give them that chance...it's in the rules. Had SF tried to sub, that ref would have NEVER moved off the ball. I watched it on delay and couldn't follow/post live, but was laughing my butt off wondering how many Dallas fans were blaming the ref and how many others were as incredulous at the stupidity of the call/attempt as I was

 

[styleride85]

This. I didn't like the call, but it wasn't MM worst call of the game.

Agreed, people are completely exaggerating how bad that call was.

They had a 1% chance to win if they didn't do that, and they traded that in by taking a gamble on a 0 or 5 % chance to win.  I'm making these numbers up but that seems about right for a 50 yard hail mary vs 25 yard td pass.

 

[Atomic Punk]

I really try not to quibble about details but I keep seeing 50 yards being used when they were on the 40 yard line. Since some are suggesting that the run for an additional 12-14 yards was the right call, we shouldn’t be adding 10 imaginary yards to the equation.

Although I can see what some are saying, the risk of that play with 14 seconds was too great to take a chance and my preference would have been two shots from the 40 yard line. Too many things can (and did) go wrong with a run up the middle like that.

Edit to add, there were quite a few other dumb plays throughout the game, so picking on this one is mainly due to the timing of it at the end of the game.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Agree with all this.  People are acting like this decision cost them the game when they had almost no chance anyways.  And then they argue "but this decision made sure they had zero chance".  Almost irrelevant.  SF was going to win that game.

But yes, it would have been a genius move if he simply did what he was supposed to do and hand the ball to the ref.  Judge the decision, ignore the result.

I mean, you're talking to a guy who started an entire thread around the question of what teams should do when they're driving late down 10 and get into FG range, when the obvious answer is "They should prepare to lose." I wasn't joking when I said I enjoyed debating between two low-percentage options. IMO, it's the scenario that's fascinating, not the effect on the outcome.

Anyway, I was watching the play again today and, while Dak should definitely have handed it to the umpire instead of trying to snap it, the umpire was nowhere near Dak when he went down. He didn't make it to the LOS until the moment he bumped into the center. Given how close Dak got to getting the snap off, waiting until the ump got there and handing it to him might have made a difference, but I can't be sure. 

Point being, it was such a high-risk play that I'm not sure you can just say, "Eh, bad execution." The mistakes they made were inherent to the risk they took: not having enough time left when the play started, Dak taking a few too many yards, not knowing to hand the ball to the ref, etc.

But yeah, in terms of stupidity, the post-fake punt alignment was way worse

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Why are the Chiefs using trick plays up 35-14 in the fourth quarter? Seems like you should save that stuff for more high leverage situations

Rams following the same playbook. Reid and McVay are both geniuses, so maybe there's some logic to it, but I don't get it.

 

[Cobbler1]

I mean, you're talking to a guy who started an entire thread around the question of what teams should do when they're driving late down 10 and get into FG range, when the obvious answer is "They should prepare to lose." I wasn't joking when I said I enjoyed debating between two low-percentage options. IMO, it's the scenario that's fascinating, not the effect on the outcome.

Anyway, I was watching the play again today and, while Dak should definitely have handed it to the umpire instead of trying to snap it, the umpire was nowhere near Dak when he went down. He didn't make it to the LOS until the moment he bumped into the center. Given how close Dak got to getting the snap off, waiting until the ump got there and handing it to him might have made a difference, but I can't be sure. 

Point being, it was such a high-risk play that I'm not sure you can just say, "Eh, bad execution." The mistakes they made were inherent to the risk they took: not having enough time left when the play started, Dak taking a few too many yards, not knowing to hand the ball to the ref, etc.

But yeah, in terms of stupidity, the post-fake punt alignment was way worse

I saw the fake and sort of tuned out for the next play, when they got the delay. Were they hoping SF would sub on their defense and they could quick snap and get a free 5 for 12 on the field? It’s all I can think of now.

 

[TampaMike19]

Stop ####### kicking field goals being down 2-3 possessions in the 4th quarter. Especially when your offense is barely in opposing territory all game 

 

[styleride85]

Stop ####### kicking field goals being down 2-3 possessions in the 4th quarter. Especially when your offense is barely in opposing territory all game 

I agree it looked really dumb at the time.  But it almost ended up winning them the game.

 

[identikit]

Stop ####### kicking field goals being down 2-3 possessions in the 4th quarter. Especially when your offense is barely in opposing territory all game 

I agree it looked really dumb at the time.  But it almost ended up winning them the game.

Not AZ

Or Dallas for that matter

 

[styleride85]

Not AZ

Or


Dallas


for that matter

ok

 

[Cobbler1]

Stop ####### kicking field goals being down 2-3 possessions in the 4th quarter. Especially when your offense is barely in opposing territory all game 

It was 4th and 20!

 

[Chaka]

Rams following the same playbook. Reid and McVay are both geniuses, so maybe there's some logic to it, but I don't get it.

They are putting it on film so next week's opponents have one more thing to account for. If it moves the needle by a 10th of a point I think Reid & McVay would argue it's worth it.

 

[FunkyPlutos]

Why did the Cards go for two to make it 28-8?

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Stop ####### kicking field goals being down 2-3 possessions in the 4th quarter. Especially when your offense is barely in opposing territory all game 

I was watching when that happened and the same thought occurred to me. Then I thought about my back-and-forth with @styleride85 about win expectancy. When a team is down six on their opponent's 45 with 14 seconds left, their odds are slim (they literally need a Hail Mary). But when you're losing 31-8 in the 4th quarter, there basically are no odds. You're going to lose.

Also, I mentioned earlier that I find some of these debates fascinating in spite of their impact on win expectancy. A draw play with 14 seconds and no timeouts was a pretty novel situation. So was leaving the punt team on the field after a successful fake. But the FG vs TD debate is one we've already had a million times here.

All of which is to say that I guess they should have gone for it, but I refuse to waste any mental energy on it (beyond this post explaining why I don't care). You gotta draw the line somewhere. 

 

[Summer Wheat]

Amid all the discussions of Dak’s scramble, we’ve forgotten to give Dallas crap for that bizarre decision after the fake punt to leave the kicking team out on the field, then change their mind and run the offense back on, then get a delay of game penalty. WTF?!?!?!

Heard yesterday that fake punt was called for after seeing 49er defense set up.   Offense did not know it was a fake and Dak and the offense was not ready to go right back out there.  By the time he got his helmet and everyone together too much time had run off the play clock.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Heard yesterday that fake punt was called for after seeing 49er defense set up.   Offense did not know it was a fake and Dak and the offense was not ready to go right back out there.  By the time he got his helmet and everyone together too much time had run off the play clock.

If so, that's a pretty unforgiveable lapse in communications on the part of the coaching staff

 

[Summer Wheat]

If so, that's a pretty unforgiveable lapse in communications on the part of the coaching staff

Yep.  Dallas has never been a very disciplined team.

 

[IHEARTFF]

They are putting it on film so next week's opponents have one more thing to account for. If it moves the needle by a 10th of a point I think Reid & McVay would argue it's worth it.

Yeah I forgot to comment on this when someone asked why Chiefs were running trick plays up big late. They have many variations of the shovel pass play now at the goal line or when Kelce lines up at QB and the other team has to practice it now.

 

[TampaMike19]

It was 4th and 20!

While I generally agree with you, the Cards barely made it into Rams territory all game. 4th and 20 might as well been 4th and 8th for them. They gotta hope for miracles at this point and field goals are meaningless. 

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Yeah I forgot to comment on this when someone asked why Chiefs were running trick plays up big late. They have many variations of the shovel pass play now at the goal line or when Kelce lines up at QB and the other team has to practice it now.

I dunno, wouldn't you prefer your opponents NOT practice defending your trick plays?

I do get the logic, and I suppose it's a testament to how much of a chess match football has become. Teams are constantly thinking one or two moves ahead, trying to bait their opponents into thinking they're zigging so they can turn around and zag. 

It's also why, for all the talk in this thread of coaches being stupid, we should never forget that a lot of these guys are incredibly brilliant strategic thinkers. That's what makes the blind spots all the more glaring.