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The same way they missed the obvious facemask on Goff 5 ( or so) plays before. Bad ref’ing, plain and simple. The truth is if the Rams had lost by three because that PI got called, they grind the clock down and kick the field-goal the Rams would’ve gotten jobbed too. Rams fans would be up in arms (rightly, as Saint fans rightly are upset now). The PI call was worse but not much. Both were game changing non calls, largely due to when the plays happened in the game.
Disagree. The two plays are not comparable. The 5-yard incidental facemask penalty was removed from the rule book in 2008. That hasn’t happened with either PI or helmet-to-helmet.
it was removed and turned into a 15 yard penalty. all facemasks are 15 yardsDoug B said:
It was removed. Only the 15 yarder remained. The only level this would have been a facemask is High School.
But he’s also human and do wonder what he would truly feel if this happened to the Steelers. If he sticks to his guns, good for him.Joe Bryant said:I do wonder how many people feel like @Steeler and just blindly accept the blown call, don't put any blame on the officials andif it's their team? I can't imagine many. I can't do that and it's not even my team.
But it's always interesting to hear radically different perspectives.
To draw a 15 yard facemask on an open-field tackle in the NFL today, the defender really has to hang on to the facemask and nearly tackle the ball carrier. You have to get that head, neck, and torso moving.
In NCAA (which came from the NFL philosophy), I have to put the facemask into a category. "Grab and twist" or "Grab and pull" anything less is incidental.
In slow motion and still shots, seems pretty clear the head, neck, and torso are being affected by the facemask.
Post 2007, that kind of facemask contact is uncalled each and every time so long as it happens in the open field (and often in the pocket, even).
That’s not even close to being true, as with PI’s, fackmask’s of far less severity then this get called almost every game. His facemask was clearly grasped, pulled and his head was yanked. It’s not even in question. 95% of facemasks are “incidental”
Granted. Doesn't mean than an individual missed call can't be so egregious that it clearly stands out as its own thing, well apart from all other missed calls. I reject out of hand putting the No-Call in a basket with all other missed calls.
Sure, and this one stands out without question. But only due to the time of the game and the stakes on the line. If this missed call had happened in the 3rd quarter no one would really be talking about it and certainly wouldn’t be talk about the ref being on the take.
Also due to the egregiousness and the fact that it was out in the open and it's known that two refs (at minimum) had a clear look at the foul.
I’m not mitigating what happened and have said the non call was awful, if I were a Saints fan I would be pissed. I’m just defending the talk (not necessarily you saying this just in general) that the miss call had to be nefarious.
I think it's fair to think Saints fans are being whiners, babies, etc and in some cases they're not putting enough blame on coaching and Brees for how things played out before and after the non-call, including overtime.
He wasn't really beaten. He plowed him over well before the ball got there, and if he had just turned around he probably gets an interception. Obviously I'm not arguing it wasn't a penalty or that it wasn't a terrible call but what made it even more baffling to me was why he even did it?
I believe the player stated that he thought he was beat for a TD and tried to take him out expecting the penalty to be called and he was fine with that because he made a decision to do that in trying to prevent the TD.
I think most of us have been watching the games long enough to know that there is a lot of randomness that goes into a win or a loss.Joe Bryant said:One of the more surprising things I've seen on this board in a while is how many serious NFL people
Doug B said:
@modogg , @menobrown ... what do you guys think of the points raised above by me and Joe (bottom pg 6 - top of pg 7)? Isn't there something a lot more to this than just who won or lost the game and whether or not one team/fanbase "got hosed"? There truly aren't any potential (potential, not to say 'highly likely') ramifications for the entire league here?
The thing is, this isn't even really a hypothetical. Refs had another missed DPI by Robey-Coleman on a 3rd and 7 pass to Ginn that stalled an earlier Saints drive, and pretty much no one is talking about it (I had forgotten about it myself before I saw a glancing reference to it in an article earlier today)
Robey-Coleman was originally guarding Alvin Kamara on the play. Tommy Lee Lewis was left uncovered. That's why Robey-Coleman shot off in a full sprint -- he calculated - in the moment - that with any hesitation to look for the ball, he'd not have gotten to Lewis.
I hear you but I don't think this is an integrity issue unless you think there was something nefarious going on with the refs and they did this intentionally. I do NOT think that. I think it was just a badly missed call that unfortunately decided the game.
maybe, but I think we can look at other games, even in this year's playoffs with similar situations. Heck, the Eagles-Saints game this playoffs where they called the mystery offensive pass interference on Goedert when he didn't even go near a guy was a definitive bad call. it was a little earlier in the game and the Eagles were able to recover, but if we compare both plays they are both close to being atrocious.
I am not a Saints fan and i really don't care who won the game.
I would disagree here. Putting PI (or any judgement call for that matter) up for review will open up a can of worms that can never be put back. If you slow the video down to super slow motion you can pretty much talk yourself into whatever you want to call. The most reasonable response to this is to train the officials better and hold them to be more accountable. Get a call such as this correct close to 100% of the time. This was not a difficult call.
Gally, this lines up with what you just posted about having a 98% win probability erased.
If the question was do I believe bad officiating can have ramifications for an entire league I would say yes, of course . That's why most leagues are constantly looking at ways to improve officiating. I do not believe we are close to being their yet, do not think the bad no call that impacted your team is an issue of a lack of integrity, it's just human error and it's going to hard to do away with that entirely without enduring other ramifications such as pace of game turning fans off.
From a different angle, but yes. More akin to Joe Bryant's or Gally's angles, but very much yes.
I'm someone who thinks that the Saints were royally screwed by the refs but I agree with you. Unfortunately there is no way to change the outcome of that game at this point.
I disagree. They were already in easy FG range and the goal should be to make the Rams use their timeouts and run as much clock off as possible before attempting the FG. I think you have to have better situational awareness there and it surprises me that a veteran like Brees botched it.
Sorry, I don't really watch the CFL. You need western Canadians maybe? @northern exposure. He has a CFL avatar.
Eric Mangini brought that up on Speak for Yourself today, about how a very questionable PI call made it possible for the Saints to get the 1 seed. Without that call, the Saints get the 2 seed, not the 1, and the Steelers make the playoffs.
I don't understand how people keep posting with 100% certainty that the game was decided on that call. any number of things could have happened afterwards. And as has been beaten to death--Brees had a chance to win and blew it. It happens. It's a game.
It's a false equivalence. The bad PI on Joe Haden was called because Haden's back shielded the official from seeing what Haden was doing (or not doing) with his hands on Mike Thomas' back. From behind, not being able to see hands, it looked like Haden pulled Thomas down. From the side view, Haden just grabbed Thomas' jersey for a second, then let go. Since Thomas' jump looked impeded (don't know if Thomas lost his balance or what, looked clumsy) from the ref's rear angle, he threw the flag.
Watson's letter also was posted to Twitter, and Peter King picked it up:
Ongoing Twitter content will likely be important here, as social media is probably the best way to keep the No-Call in the news cycle (if tenuously). King only wrote a few sentences about the No-Call this past Monday's FMIA column -- but now he's committed to addressing it again.
There were also 3 officials looking at the play from various angles too. Just bizarre.
