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Potential NFL competitive integrity issue brought to light in Rams @ Saints game (2 Viewers)

I think it's really an understatement to refer to this official's (Gary Cavaletto) actions as a mistake.  That really minimizes things.  I mean if a surgeon mistakenly removes the wrong organ, sure that's a mistake, but so is a kid forgetting to give you your fries.  Both mistakes, not the same. One of those is a mistake, one of those is negligence.

What Cavaletto did in that game is about as bad of a "mistake" as a professional ref can make.  Analogy wise, it's the surgeon not the fries.

Sure, we all make mistakes, but we aren't all negligent in our professional responsibilities.  Cavaletto was.

 
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Doug B said:
However, I would argue there is still a competitive integrity issue in situations where an individual game official decides in the moment that a blatantly illegal tactic is permissible. If THAT kind of reffing merely elicits “who cares?” shrugs, hypothetical game fixing, point shaving, etc. is much easier to cover up.
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Cut to the chase: In the current NFL, there is no way to distinguish between (a) a hypothetical fixed or tilted game and (b) a badly-called game. The "bad calls happen" stuff allows too much leeway. Getting obvious calls right in the moment should matter to more fans and media, or else what's the point of the on-field competition?

 
Doug B said:
Cut to the chase: In the current NFL, there is no way to distinguish between (a) a hypothetical fixed or tilted game and (b) a badly-called game. The "bad calls happen" stuff allows too much leeway. Getting obvious calls right in the moment should matter to more fans and media, or else what's the point of the on-field competition?
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So the point of this thread is because more NFL fans should be outraged that that obvious call was missed?

 
Steeler said:
So the point of this thread is because more NFL fans should be outraged that that obvious call was missed?
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Caring about something is not the same as outrage. I see really low expectations out there. People are pretty sure that this is just the way it has to be, and expecting better is futile.

 
Doug B said:
Caring about something is not the same as outrage. I see really low expectations out there. People are pretty sure that this is just the way it has to be, and expecting better is futile.
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What can we do as fans though?  Accept that calls are missed (sometimes egregiously) or stop watching the NFL  :shrug:  

 
Steeler said:
What can we do as fans though?  Accept that calls are missed (sometimes egregiously) or stop watching the NFL  :shrug:  
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Dunno. While I'll still enjoy watching games -- something I've engaged in all my life ... it's getting harder to really root for the sport overall. Like now ... I probably won't stop watching the NFL myself, but I no longer feel a little sad that my kids aren't into football like I am. The shine is definitely off.

 
Fans can ##### and moan mostly, short of boycotting.  Don't know if it's effective at the NFL offices. That's about it tho.

I did think the catch rule was much better this year, maybe the general grumbling about that influenced change.

Really it's only a couple of types of penalties that are at issue.  PI is such a game changing call, and so subjective in real time, that a second look via review makes sense to me.  The only other thing I'd want to see available for a second look would be the helmet based stuff.  Roughing the passer and "targeting" type fouls.  I don't think they are really game changers time wise to games and the outcomes of those calls, spot fouls and possible ejections certainly warrant getting them right as much as possible.

There will always be a human element to officiating, but I do expect them to get the big stuff right nearly 100% of the time.

 
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Doug B said:
Caring about something is not the same as outrage. I see really low expectations out there. People are pretty sure that this is just the way it has to be, and expecting better is futile.
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I care.  I think it was a terrible non-call, and maybe there's a solution (like allowing coaches to throw a challenge flag in such situations).  But once we start discussing solutions, we have to look at the bigger picture - in which situations can/can't you challenge?  What possible unintended consequences are you introducing to the game by making these changes?  Etc.  And to answer those, we can't just talk about this one single play, we have to talk about all such plays, in all games, at all times, which is something you keep telling people they're not supposed to do in this thread.  If you want an answer to "what can be done about this one bad call that happened yesterday?" the answer is nothing.  It was a bad call at a pivotal time in an important game.  Hopefully it leads to more discussion about how to make the game better.  But you can't insist on focusing on that single play, it defeats your own argument. 

 
Ignoratio Elenchi said:
I care.  I think it was a terrible non-call, and maybe there's a solution (like allowing coaches to throw a challenge flag in such situations) ...  Hopefully it leads to more discussion about how to make the game better.
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Agreed.

NFL will consider making pass interference calls reviewable, after Rams-Saints gaffe (Washington Post, 1/21/2019)

 
The call was clear and the refs missed it by a mile. As a Steelers fan it's pretty rich hearing saints players say they never get the calls since 2 bogus PI calls gave them the game against the Steelers. 

Even though my Steelers got robbed from BS calls, I still want the Refs to get the calls right and the Saints should have won. 

 
Count me as another who had no idea the Saints were so widely hated across the league.

My guess for what happened is that the egregiousness of the penalty could have been exactly what caused that official to miss it. In a split second a part of his brain convinced the rest of it that what he saw was so obvious that it couldn't actually have been what happened. And once he had that initial hesitation he couldn't go back and correct himself.

The best example I can think of off the top of my head is a play in hockey a few years back the led to offsides being a reviewable call that was able to be challenged. Guy on the Avs was so ridiculously, comically offsides that both linesmen failed to make the call and Duchene scored on the play.

The resulting change is what led to reviews trying to determine if skate blades were a fraction of an inch off the ice on a zone entry that may not have resulted in a goal anywhere close to immediately. From a "be careful what you wish for" perspective...

 
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treat88 said:
Fans can ##### and moan mostly, short of boycotting.  Don't know if it's effective at the NFL offices. That's about it tho.

I did think the catch rule was much better this year, maybe the general grumbling about that influenced change.

Really it's only a couple of types of penalties that are at issue.  PI is such a game changing call, and so subjective in real time, that a second look via review makes sense to me.  The only other thing I'd want to see available for a second look would be the helmet based stuff.  Roughing the passer and "targeting" type fouls.  I don't think they are really game changers time wise to games and the outcomes of those calls, spot fouls and possible ejections certainly warrant getting them right as much as possible.

There will always be a human element to officiating, but I do expect them to get the big stuff right nearly 100% of the time.
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I think opening PI up to review is too messy. Sure, it could fix the obvious miss like this one in the Saints game, but far too many PI calls aren't so obvious, They truly are judgment calls that could go the other way if seen from a different angle, or even called on the other team. There's a good reason they haven't opened up judgement calls to replay.

That said, I'd have no problem with having a more experienced crew in a booth or central location with the power to instantly correct the egregious misses. No coaches challenges on "judgement calls" but a crew capable of buzzing the ref on the field and saying "that's not a roughing call" or "that WAS PI".

 
JaxBill said:
It seems like player safety has gone totally out the window in playoffs for everybody but QB
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Fixed this for you.

And everyone’s glossing over it, but “player safety” has always been about protecting the big money investments and profit streams generated by the elite QBs.  No one else has ever mattered, aside from the stray elite receiver (horse collar rule).

First they came for the defensemen, but I didn’t speak because I didn’t play IDP...then they came for the kick returners....

 
Dinsy Ejotuz said:
Kicker is that if Brees throws that pass anywhere near on time it's an easy TD.  But he was so late the defender lost track of the ball and actually overran it.  If he hadn't it would have been an easy pick six the other way.
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Serious question... Were you close to sober?

 
Steeler said:
So the point of this thread is because more NFL fans should be outraged that that obvious call was missed?
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My first thought was "the fix is in"..  NFL wants a Rams/Chiefs rematch.

I was disgusted by the call.  I like both teams but just couldn't stomach the Rams celebrating after that..

 
steelers1080 said:
The call was clear and the refs missed it by a mile. As a Steelers fan it's pretty rich hearing saints players say they never get the calls since 2 bogus PI calls gave them the game against the Steelers. 

Even though my Steelers got robbed from BS calls, I still want the Refs to get the calls right and the Saints should have won. 
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Geez...The refs gave away a game to the Saints against your team too?  I'm beginning to think this Ref was just correcting all the wrongs that turned an average team into a 13-3 team.

 
Ha, hey AAA, I can't explain why/how but if the Saints had won I had a ticket to the game lined up. I can't say that we Orleanians would have been the perfect guests in Atlanta, and I wonder if Atlanta would have been the perfect hosts, so I'll say that piece at least we probably were all spared and it's probably, on that alone, a good thing we didn't make it. We're always polite here, but... trying to find humor and calm in the situation. I'll follow up with some more thoughts in a moment. - SID

 
AAABatteries said:
I love you man but that’s directed at the Saints coaches and not the other ref.  Look, it was a horrible call but that’s all it was and yes, it cost the Saints the game.  
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Ok I edited it, I agree.

AAABatteries said:
Watch this video that shows he directs that at Payton.  I have no idea why the guy made that call other than a screwup and then pride for not correcting himself.  I’m willing to listen if somebody finds proof it was fixed but right now I put that at about 0% and just a complete #### up at 100%

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thespun.com/football/new-replay-angle-of-controversial-saints-rams-no-call-play/amp
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I was about to post the same, albeit with this think (basically the same).

No. 13 Patrick Turner is the Down Judge, No. 60 Gary Cavaletto is the Side Judge. I agree with this shot we can see that Cavaletto is waving off Payton who is rushing in to the edge of the coaching/players box. Turner can be seen also gesturing Payton back. Turner did reach for the flag, he went in to consult Cavaletto and basically Turner tells Cavaletto it's "bang bang". Which is bs, and Cavaletto also saw the play. As I understand it they both have ability to call PI there (eta: under the rules though the Side Judge specifically technically has the responsibility to "Makes sure widest receiver on nearest side is able to run his route without defensive interference"). I think the Down Judge has responsibility up to 7 yards to watch for illegal contact but he is not limited to those 7 yards. I don't know what the hand signal that Cavaletto did there with the crossed arms,  but he did essentially seal the deal. - eta - However, note Turner says "bang bang" after Cavaletto does the hand signal and says something to Turner. 

What gets me is that there was not just 1 blown call, but actually 2 blown calls here; and not only that there were 2 different refs who blew off two different calls. They saw the fouls, they just weren't calling them and they didn't call them.

I'm not on the 'fixed' track, at least not if that means gambling. That's not me. If I ever do get conspiracy minded about the NFL I'm more inclined to believe that the refs try to keep games entertaining, and I mean that even for the most meaningless games in the dregs of the regular season. I don't think of that as being 'fixed' but I do think it happens. But I don't see where that would come into play here.

And a long time ago I read this book by former ref Norm Schachter, and I'd recommend it to anyone. And what I recall is that he did acknowledge, IIRC, that yes some refs could be fans of certain teams, and while games would never be 'fixed' it did occur that some refs were indeed partial on occasion. But I also do not buy that here.

However I am at a loss for what Turner and then Cavaletto - two different refs both seeing the ball from two different places - were thinking.

 
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jonessed said:
What an arrogant #######.  He definitely deserves to be canned.
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I’d probably be ok with him being fired if he has a pattern of bad calls or maybe even for just this one - some mistakes are just that bad.  However,  him telling the Saints coaches to relax isn’t a bad thing - in that situation there’s a chance they get even more screwed with an unsportsmanlike penalty for their reaction.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Ha, hey AAA, I can't explain why/how but if the Saints had won I had a ticket to the game lined up. I can't say that we Orleanians would have been the perfect guests in Atlanta, and I wonder if Atlanta would have been the perfect hosts, so I'll say that piece at least we probably were all spared and it's probably, on that alone, a good thing we didn't make it. We're always polite here, but... trying to find humor and calm in the situation. I'll follow up with some more thoughts in a moment. - SID
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If you still make it to Atlanta, beers on me - I work a couple blocks from the stadium.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
What gets me is that there was not just 1 blown call, but actually 2 blown calls here; and not only that there were 2 different refs who blew off two different calls. They saw the fouls, they just weren't calling them and they didn't call them.

I'm not on the 'fixed' track, at least not if that means gambling. That's not me. If I ever do get conspiracy minded about the NFL I'm more inclined to believe that the refs try to keep games entertaining, and I mean that even for the most meaningless games in the dregs of the regular season. I don't think of that as being 'fixed' but I do think it happens. But I don't see where that would come into play here.

...

However I am at a loss for what Turner and then Cavaletto - two different refs both seeing the ball from two different places - were thinking.
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Normally, seeing a foul like Robey-Coleman's would lead at least to a reflexive flag-throw from a ref. A flag that would be thrown without thinking ... no interpretation of the act necessary, no guesswork. Like Charles Martin body-slamming Jim McMahon out in the open -- the flag comes out immediately.

For the flag NOT to come out Sunday, IMHO, means that a willful determination not to throw a flag had to have been made in advance of the snap. I don't mean an act of malice -- I mean an ethic of "a flag won't decide this playoff game" taken too far. That's why I feel it wasn't a mistake or a missed call -- can't be missed because it was clearly seen by two officials at a minimum. The most charitable explanation I can summon would be that both near officials froze up (due to the pre-decision not to throw a game-deciding flag) and then upon recognition that an over-the-top foul occurred -- for whatever reason -- they could not bring themselves to counter their immediate lack of action (say, by conferencing with each other and then throwing a belated, but correct, flag).

 
I would agree that your explanation could be plausible if there were about 100 seconds less on the clock at the time. No one thinks about swallowing the whistle with nearly 2 minutes of game time left and several timeouts. That's an eternity in football.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Ha, hey AAA, I can't explain why/how but if the Saints had won I had a ticket to the game lined up. I can't say that we Orleanians would have been the perfect guests in Atlanta, and I wonder if Atlanta would have been the perfect hosts, so I'll say that piece at least we probably were all spared and it's probably, on that alone, a good thing we didn't make it. We're always polite here, but... trying to find humor and calm in the situation. I'll follow up with some more thoughts in a moment. - SID
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Same here, GB. I was probably more emotionally invested than usual  because of it. Tough one to swallow. 🤜

 
RUSF18 said:
I would agree that your explanation could be plausible if there were about 100 seconds less on the clock at the time. No one thinks about swallowing the whistle with nearly 2 minutes of game time left and several timeouts. That's an eternity in football.
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Do you have an opinion on what might have gone through the officials' heads in the moment? Do you think it's possible that neither actually saw the foul at all? Or that that they saw the foul and sincerely decided it wasn't counter to the game rules?

I'm at a loss for other non-conspiracy/game-fixing explanations. Trying to apply Ockham's Razor here.

 
Doug B said:
Normally, seeing a foul like Robey-Coleman's would lead at least to a reflexive flag-throw from a ref. A flag that would be thrown without thinking ... no interpretation of the act necessary, no guesswork. Like Charles Martin body-slamming Jim McMahon out in the open -- the flag comes out immediately.

For the flag NOT to come out Sunday, IMHO, means that a willful determination not to throw a flag had to have been made in advance of the snap. I don't mean an act of malice -- I mean an ethic of "a flag won't decide this playoff game" taken too far. That's why I feel it wasn't a mistake or a missed call -- can't be missed because it was clearly seen by two officials at a minimum. The most charitable explanation I can summon would be that both near officials froze up (due to the pre-decision not to throw a game-deciding flag) and then upon recognition that an over-the-top foul occurred -- for whatever reason -- they could not bring themselves to counter their immediate lack of action (say, by conferencing with each other and then throwing a belated, but correct, flag).
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Have you ever officiated a game?  I am by no means a professional but I have umped quite a few games and there are times when you just freeze for whatever reason and you miss a call.  Maybe you blink at the wrong time, maybe you glanced somewhere else for some reason.  There are a million things that can happen that cause a bad call and none of them are purposely trying to make the wrong call.  You realize it almost immediately that you screwed up but many times there is nothing you can do about it. 

You seem to be trying to make a point that the official saw the foul and purposely decided against making the correct call.  That he made a conscious decision to make a bad call.  Is that what you are implying?  I find it hard to believe that this is the case but stranger things have happened. 

 
Gally said:
Have you ever officiated a game?  I am by no means a professional but I have umped quite a few games and there are times when you just freeze for whatever reason and you miss a call ... You realize it almost immediately that you screwed up but many times there is nothing you can do about it.
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Yes, I have done youth baseball and basketball -- never football, though.

You're correct about the chance of a freeze-up. What's different about an NFL game is that there's a chance to conference with other officials to get a call correct. Would it have been out-of-line for a few officials to huddle up, and then throw a flag 15 seconds after the play? The call doesn't have to be immediate.

 
Not sure if it was mentioned already, but it was also strange when Josh Hill was blown up with a hit to the helmet and there was no flag but the ref made him leave the game because the helmet to helmet hit concussed him? If there was no flag on the hit why make the guy leave the game? Or if you make him leave the game, retroactively throw a flag. Just another dumb thing I hadn't seen before. 

 
ericttspikes said:
Not sure if it was mentioned already, but it was also strange when Josh Hill was blown up with a hit to the helmet and there was no flag but the ref made him leave the game because the helmet to helmet hit concussed him? If there was no flag on the hit why make the guy leave the game? Or if you make him leave the game, retroactively throw a flag. Just another dumb thing I hadn't seen before. 
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Helmet-to-helmet calls in the NFL are all over the place. If the league were serious about head shots, they'd adopt the college targeting rule and the same enforcement mechanism.

 
Doug B said:
Do you have an opinion on what might have gone through the officials' heads in the moment? Do you think it's possible that neither actually saw the foul at all? Or that that they saw the foul and sincerely decided it wasn't counter to the game rules?

I'm at a loss for other non-conspiracy/game-fixing explanations. Trying to apply Ockham's Razor here.
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I honestly think the most probable explanation is that he didn't want HIS call in the waning moments  to determine the game. Little did he know that his inaction would do just that. Definitely ended up worse for him (and us). Should have just done his job. 

 
Gally said:
You seem to be trying to make a point that the official saw the foul and purposely decided against making the correct call.  That he made a conscious decision to make a bad call.  Is that what you are implying?  I find it hard to believe that this is the case but stranger things have happened. 
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Earlier in the thread, I was more open to the idea that the on-field call was malicious (not conspiratorial) in the moment. Thinking about it some more, it seems more likely to me that it's more likely that there simply an ethic to not let a flag decide the game ... and it was that which caused the freeze-up. So in a sense, a pre-made conscious decision to make a bad call -- not for the sake of screwing a team, but to avoid (ironically) being the deciding factor in the contest. "Let 'em play" carried too far.

...

Someone brought this up on another board: In the Jan 2018 NFC Divisional playoffs ... if Saints safety Marcus Williams had gone straight at Vikings' WR Stefon Diggs and laid Diggs out before the ball arrived (Williams had the time and angle to do so), would the officials have done the same thing as this past Sunday and NOT made a PI call on Williams? Something to think about.

 
Nathan R. Jessep said:
I honestly think the most probable explanation is that he didn't want HIS call in the waning moments  to determine the game. Little did he know that his inaction would do just that. Definitely ended up worse for him (and us). Should have just done his job. 
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This. And why have a different mentality towards reffing a game in the playoffs vs. regular season, anyway? NBA is bad for this, too. I understand higher stakes, but still. 

 
Doug B said:
Do you have an opinion on what might have gone through the officials' heads in the moment? Do you think it's possible that neither actually saw the foul at all? Or that that they saw the foul and sincerely decided it wasn't counter to the game rules?

I'm at a loss for other non-conspiracy/game-fixing explanations. Trying to apply Ockham's Razor here.
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Gave my opinion up the page:

https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/773888-potential-nfl-competitive-integrity-issue-brought-to-light-in-rams-saints-game/?do=findComment&comment=21662664

 
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Gotcha, RUSF18 ... the freeze-up scenario, just with a different posited impetus. Blanking out as a reaction to the egregiousness of the foul, basically.

 
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