What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Presidents and Deportation - Can We Talk? (1 Viewer)

Joe Bryant

Joe Bryant

Guide
Staff member
It's good to have facts. With tension understandably high over Trump's talk of deporting, it's important to weigh that against our current situation.

I was surprised to know these numbers from ABC News showing President Obama has deported more people than any other president.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obamas-deportation-policy-numbers/story?id=41715661

Donald Trump’s immigration plan is set to be announced later this week. And if previous comments are any indication, the Republican presidential contender said he plans to focus on deporting criminals, similar to the current strategy of the Obama administration.

"On Day One, I am going to begin swiftly removing criminal illegal immigrants from this country," he said at Iowa Sen. Joni Ernst's Roast and Ride event Saturday in Des Moines, saying he would not focus on the 11 million undocumented residents who have lived in the U.S. for a long time without incident.

Trump has not given specific details about his immigration policy plans, but is expected to explain more Wednesday.

Based on statements so far, Trump's plan to remove the undocumented immigrants who have committed crimes is similar to what President Obama declared in 2014. Here's a look at some of the numbers:

How many people have been deported under Obama?

President Barack Obama has often been referred to by immigration groups as the "Deporter in Chief."
Between 2009 and 2015 his administration has removed more than 2.5 million people through immigration orders, which doesn’t include the number of people who "self-deported" or were turned away and/or returned to their home country at the border by U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP).

How does he compare to other presidents?

According to governmental data, the Obama administration has deported more people than any other president's administration in history.
In fact, they have deported more than the sum of all the presidents of the 20th century.
Click to expand...
Some questions.

1. Does this surprise you that President Obama deported this many people?

2. Do you feel immigrants should be deported who are here illegally but not otherwise breaking laws?

3. Do you feel immigrants should be deported who are here illegally and also convicted of breaking other laws?

 
1.  No.  It has been heavily reported and was in fact cited by both campaigns.

3.  I am going to answer 3 before 2 for reasons that will soon be obvious.  I think it is fine to deport undocumented immigrants who commit felonies provided that there is a path to citizenship for those who come and contribute to this country without getting into trouble.  Of course, I'd also be concerned about laws designed to disproportionately target undocumented immigrants, but I don't object to deporting felons as a matter of principle.

2. Absolutely not.

 
Joe Bryant said:
It's good to have facts. With tension understandably high over Trump's talk of deporting, it's important to weigh that against our current situation.

I was surprised to know these numbers from ABC News showing President Obama has deported more people than any other president.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obamas-deportation-policy-numbers/story?id=41715661

Some questions.

1. Does this surprise you that President Obama deported this many people?

2. Do you feel immigrants should be deported who are here illegally but not otherwise breaking laws?

3. Do you feel immigrants should be deported who are here illegally and also convicted of breaking other laws?
Click to expand...
1.  No.  It has been discussed here.  The more important figure is what percentage has been deported and who is getting deported 

2.  Not if we stop making the border a revolving door.

3.  Yes.  I think this is the biggest disconnect.  The administration focuses on violent felons.  I really think a conviction of any crime should get you deported.

 
1. Not surprised at all

2. Not if they can support themselves and are willing to integrate as productive members of society (obviously making a path to residency available before they enter the US would be a lot more efficient)

3. Only if same can be done without violating international conventions (to the extent the US is cosignatory to them), such as the Human Rights convention, The UN convnetion against torture, etc. 

 
jonessed said:
1.  No.  It has been discussed here.  The more important figure is what percentage has been deported and who is getting deported 

2.  Not if we stop making the border a revolving door.

3.  Yes.  I think this is the biggest disconnect.  The administration focuses on violent felons.  I really think a conviction of any crime should get you deported.
Click to expand...
This is about where I am. Not surprised about the stats, as this has been a point made here often and even Trump acknowledged this to be the case.

 
Here's a question I have, and I'm not sure it's easily answered:

For the illegals in the U.S., given their wages (I assume they're mostly employees rather than employers), what should their Federal (and State if any one could figure that out) income tax contribution be? And if anyone can figure that out, how much of that has been paid?

I realize they pay sales tax, wherever sales tax applies. I'm fine with them staying here long term as long as they're paying their fair share of taxes, and that they're working towards citizenship, or at least some recognized legal standing.

 
The issue is what immigration and police tactics are allowed to enable item #2.  How do the authorities identify illegal immigrants who haven't committed a crime?   And how do you do that without violating the Fourth Amendment and trampling on civil rights of citizens.

 
NutterButter said:
1.  Had no idea.  So another 3-4M shouldn't be a logistical issue afterall.
Click to expand...
Depends on the time frame. If Trump wants to do it in his first (only?) term, it would more than double the throughput. If within the first year, 3-4 million would represent a tenfold increase

 
1.  No.  Based on my job I've been involved in the process. 

2. Absolutely not.  They should be given a shorter path to citizenship so they can start paying taxes and receiving benefits. 

3. This is an awful question because the obvious answer, as many have stated, is that it depends on the laws their breaking. And that's already how it basically works*

*Those of you interested I'd encourage you to review this "short" chart to see exactly how complicated it can be: https://firrp.org/media/Arizona_Chart_2016-Update-FINAL.pdf

 
jonessed said:
1.  No.  It has been discussed here.  The more important figure is what percentage has been deported and who is getting deported 

2.  Not if we stop making the border a revolving door.

3.  Yes.  I think this is the biggest disconnect.  The administration focuses on violent felons.  I really think a conviction of any crime should get you deported.
Click to expand...
Seriously? You realize it's a crime in many jurisdictions to get in an argument with your wife, jaywalk, have too much crap in your yard, drive too high above the speed limit, watch a pirated CD, etc? You really think somebody should be deported for engaging in one of those behaviors?

 
Zow said:
Seriously? You realize it's a crime in many jurisdictions to get in an argument with your wife, jaywalk, have too much crap in your yard, drive too high above the speed limit, watch a pirated CD, etc? You really think somebody should be deported for engaging in one of those behaviors?
Click to expand...
Don't forget, they all committed a crime to get to the US. /Trumpette

 
Is there a reason to have any immigration laws at all if we aren't willing to deport them for coming in illegally?

For those saying No on #2, are you saying that you're in favor of unlimited immigration with no formal process for allowing people into the country?

 
GroveDiesel said:
Is there a reason to have any immigration laws at all if we aren't willing to deport them for coming in illegally?

For those saying No on #2, are you saying that you're in favor of unlimited immigration with no formal process for allowing people into the country?
Click to expand...
Been asking this question for years....why the facade?  It's throwing money into a fire.  What's the point?

 
Walking Boot said:
The press has hidden this story in favor of fear mongering.

But it's what many of us have argued for a long time:

1) secure the borders so we know who's coming in

2) identify violent criminals here illegally and deport them

3) give illegal immigrants without violent records a path to citizenship.

It's insane to me that the Left is fighting this. Just goes to show they are full of Hate for the opposing party, just because it's the "other team", not for any real reason. They want to destroy people just because they have an (R) after their name, regardless of their actual positions.
Click to expand...
You really need to come to grips that this is true of both parties.  

 
Zow said:
Seriously? You realize it's a crime in many jurisdictions to get in an argument with your wife, jaywalk, have too much crap in your yard, drive too high above the speed limit, watch a pirated CD, etc? You really think somebody should be deported for engaging in one of those behaviors?
Click to expand...
Born here or not, these people need to go.

 
I'm curious what the total cost would be to really enforce immigration laws. There's the cost to find them, and then the court costs to actually deport. Then the lawsuits. Not even factoring in the cost of some wall which (thankfully) will never be built. Whether it'd all be worth it or not, I have idea. 

 
Zow said:
Seriously? You realize it's a crime in many jurisdictions to get in an argument with your wife, jaywalk, have too much crap in your yard, drive too high above the speed limit, watch a pirated CD, etc? You really think somebody should be deported for engaging in one of those behaviors?
Click to expand...
Are people being regularly convicted of these crimes? 

 
Joe Bryant said:
It's good to have facts. With tension understandably high over Trump's talk of deporting, it's important to weigh that against our current situation.

I was surprised to know these numbers from ABC News showing President Obama has deported more people than any other president.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obamas-deportation-policy-numbers/story?id=41715661

Some questions.

1. Does this surprise you that President Obama deported this many people?

2. Do you feel immigrants should be deported who are here illegally but not otherwise breaking laws?

3. Do you feel immigrants should be deported who are here illegally and also convicted of breaking other laws?
Click to expand...
1. I did know this as Obama was trying to be tough on immigration to get some republican buy in on a comprehensive immigration reform platform. Obviously he did not get the support he would have hoped for.

2. No, if you are a member of society who is contributing in a positive manner I think they should stay and get a path to citizenship.

3. Yes sort of the converse to #2 if you are not a positive contributor to society you can leave although it gets a bit grey when families are involved and what the crime is.

 
GroveDiesel said:
Is there a reason to have any immigration laws at all if we aren't willing to deport them for coming in illegally?

For those saying No on #2, are you saying that you're in favor of unlimited immigration with no formal process for allowing people into the country?
Click to expand...
Maybe its kind of like the speed limit.   We're not pulling anyone over for breaking it unless you do so egregiously.   So my interpretation of immigration laws are that we're going to make an effort to keep you from getting in illegally, but if you want to spend a bunch of money and take a huge risk and you happen to make it in, you can stay as long as you don't do something stupid.   

 
msommer said:
Depends on the time frame. If Trump wants to do it in his first (only?) term, it would more than double the throughput. If within the first year, 3-4 million would represent a tenfold increase
Click to expand...
You have to figure that Obama did it without much effort.   Half the people in this thread including myself didn't even know about it.  So there's definitely some room to pick up the pace. 

 
GroveDiesel said:
Is there a reason to have any immigration laws at all if we aren't willing to deport them for coming in illegally?

For those saying No on #2, are you saying that you're in favor of unlimited immigration with no formal process for allowing people into the country?
Click to expand...
I'd like to understand this as well since I'm. Or familiar with much of this stuff. 

Whats the point of calling it illegal if they're just allowed to stay because they're playing nice?

 
pollardsvision said:
I'm curious what the total cost would be to really enforce immigration laws. There's the cost to find them, and then the court costs to actually deport. Then the lawsuits. Not even factoring in the cost of some wall which (thankfully) will never be built. Whether it'd all be worth it or not, I have idea. 
Click to expand...
A lot.  Just the cost to incarcerate, punish, and then deport those coming in to the country after initial deportation (this is a federal crime called "Unlawful Re-Entry" and generally there's a prison sentence) is quite a bit of money.  Now increase that exponentially. 

Selfishly, I should probably be for this since the need for a criminal law attorney in Arizona would probably shoot way up. And then the taxpaying supporters of no tolerance immigration policies can put my kids through college. 

 
Cjw_55106 said:
Are people being regularly convicted of these crimes? 
Click to expand...
This is a relative term, but if you're asking whether I've seen these charges filed routinely (i.e. found on the average misdemeanor docket) in the jurisdictions I've practiced, then yes. 

 
Joe Bryant said:
It's good to have facts. With tension understandably high over Trump's talk of deporting, it's important to weigh that against our current situation.

I was surprised to know these numbers from ABC News showing President Obama has deported more people than any other president.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obamas-deportation-policy-numbers/story?id=41715661

Some questions.

1. Does this surprise you that President Obama deported this many people?

2. Do you feel immigrants should be deported who are here illegally but not otherwise breaking laws?

3. Do you feel immigrants should be deported who are here illegally and also convicted of breaking other laws?
Click to expand...
1. Yes

2. No. There should be no "roundup" of illegals.

3. Yes and any law, not just violent crimes. If you bring attention to yourself for any reason and are illegal you need be be gone. 

We need to secure the borders, let the police and Border Patrol do their jobs and everything will fall into place. 

Illegals who stay out of trouble and do not bring attention on themselves should have a path to citizenship but should not jump ahead of immigrants doing it the right way.

 
Zow said:
1.  No.  Based on my job I've been involved in the process. 

2. Absolutely not.  They should be given a shorter path to citizenship so they can start paying taxes and receiving benefits. 

3. This is an awful question because the obvious answer, as many have stated, is that it depends on the laws their breaking. And that's already how it basically works*

*Those of you interested I'd encourage you to review this "short" chart to see exactly how complicated it can be: https://firrp.org/media/Arizona_Chart_2016-Update-FINAL.pdf
Click to expand...
that's comical.  those that have fake papers, and there are millions of them, do pay taxes on their stolen/fake SS#'s, not to mention ITINs  and they get free health care already.  we pay for it.

and to answer joe's questions.

1)somewhat, didn't know it was quite that high.

2) the path should be there, but it should be more than just make it in and you're good.

3) gtfo

 
GrandpaRox said:
1. Yes

2. No. There should be no "roundup" of illegals.

3. Yes and any law, not just violent crimes. If you bring attention to yourself for any reason and are illegal you need be be gone. 

We need to secure the borders, let the police and Border Patrol do their jobs and everything will fall into place. 

Illegals who stay out of trouble and do not bring attention on themselves should have a path to citizenship but should not jump ahead of immigrants doing it the right way.
Click to expand...
This is such a myopic way of looking at criminal law. I don't understand the 180 degree turn of "yeah you're good here... oh wait you didn't have the requisite number of life vests on your watercraft and got caught and charged with a low level misdemeanor?? GONE!" 

Also, people don't get deported just for committing violent crimes, either.  There are several crimes of moral terpitude which trigger deportation as well as felonies which cause for a certain amount of incarceration to be served. 

 
Last edited by a moderator:
1. No path to citizenship for illegal immigrants. They broke the law, they can never become citizens, with one exception- if they serve in the military for 4 years or in combat, those guys can become citizens. The rest have to pay a fine and then they can stay here legally but not as full citizens; it would be the equivalent of a lifelong green card. Their kids can be citizens. 

2. Widen immigration laws, we can take in tons more than we're taking now. Personally I'd make it wide open as it was before 1925. 

3. We don't need to spend tons of money on border security. 

4. All convicted violent felons without documents should be deported after serving prison time. 

The main thing is we need to stop scapegoating illegal immigrants. They are at best a net gain to our society, and at worst a minor problem. They are not the source of our major problems in this society. 

 
Zow said:
This is such a myopic way of looking at criminal law. I don't understand the 180 degree turn of "yeah you're good here... oh wait you did have the requisite number of life vests on your watercraft and got caught and charged with a low level misdemeanor?? GONE!" 
Click to expand...
Millions upon millions of Americans have never done anything to bring attention to themselves, I would think that if you are here illegally, you would take extra precautions to stay on the right side of the law.

Okay I will compromise and exempt petty misdemeanors, but any misdemeanor that could result in a prison sentence would qualify.

Is that better? 

 
I wish we would get tough on the companies that hire illegal immigrants. Attack the people who make it worth coming here illegally. But that would mean blaming corporate white  people. 

 
2. They already break laws because they don't pay taxes. I'm all for giving them easier paths to citizenship but don't really support them being here illegally and not paying taxes. 

 
GrandpaRox said:
Millions upon millions of Americans have never done anything to bring attention to themselves, I would think that if you are here illegally, you would take extra precautions to stay on the right side of the law.

Okay I will compromise and exempt petty misdemeanors, but any misdemeanor that could result in a prison sentence would qualify.

Is that better? 
Click to expand...
No. A person cannot go to prison for a misdemeanor. 

 
Get rid of illegals that are violent criminals right away.

Get rid of illegals that have no children born here next. (they can come back legally after waiting in line like everyone else)

Allow illegals with children born here that follow the law to stay but they aren't allowed to vote and they need to pay a fine.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
timschochet said:
1. No path to citizenship for illegal immigrants. They broke the law, they can never become citizens, with one exception- if they serve in the military for 4 years or in combat, those guys can become citizens. The rest have to pay a fine and then they can stay here legally but not as full citizens; it would be the equivalent of a lifelong green card. Their kids can be citizens. 

2. Widen immigration laws, we can take in tons more than we're taking now. Personally I'd make it wide open as it was before 1925. 

3. We don't need to spend tons of money on border security. 

4. All convicted violent felons without documents should be deported after serving prison time. 

The main thing is we need to stop scapegoating illegal immigrants. They are at best a net gain to our society, and at worst a minor problem. They are not the source of our major problems in this society. 
Click to expand...
So let's spend tax dollars on them then kick them out?

 
Can anyone explain what a "path to citizenship" means?  Is this just signing some papers to get them a SS# and other form of ID, or are they taking an exam answering questions like the name of the 11th president's second cousin's daughter?

 
From a Fox News link:

The Justice Department on Thursday boosted the penalty for hiring illegal immigrants and engaging in immigration-related unfair employment practices.

Under the interim final rule published Thursday in the Federal Register, the minimum penalty imposed by the DOJ for the unlawful employment of immigrants would rise from $375 to $539, while the maximum fine would go from $3,200 to $4,313.

The changes stemmed from amendments in a 2015 budget bill that overhauled the formula for increasing such civil penalties. 

Violators facing multiple charges also would be subject to a new maximum penalty of $21,563 for hiring illegal immigrants.

Wanna get tough?  Mandatory jail sentences for hiring illegal immigrants.  Enough with the fines.  Dry up the jobs, dry up the incentive to come here illegally. 

 
Last edited by a moderator:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

H
The coming population decline and its implications.
3 4 5
Replies
247
Views
11K
Pip's Invitation
Pip's Invitation
General Malaise
Each State's Best IPA Beer - Value, Drinkability, Taste and Artwork
5 6 7
Replies
341
Views
7K
Bossman
Bossman
whoknew
DOJ and 30 States File Suit to Break up LiveNation
Replies
10
Views
684
the moops
the moops

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 1 (members: 0, guests: 1)
Back
Top