Great debate rages about the best quarterbacks of all time
By Mike Klis
The Denver Post
Posted: 02/01/2014 07:10:00 PM MST
JERSEY CITY, N.J. — There is so much debate about the "greatest quarterbacks of all time" list that two of the greatest quarterbacks disagree on whether there should even be a list.
Drew Brees has a long list. Peyton Manning has no list.
The ever-whirring Manning prefers an alternative mental exercise in which he plucks the prominent characteristics from the greats to make up the perfect quarterback.
"Take John Elway's arm (sorry about that, Jay Cutler), Dan Marino's release, Troy Aikman's dropback, Brett Favre's scrambling ability, Joe Montana's two-minute poise," Manning said. "So that's how I like to look at it. I don't have a list. I know a lot of people have lists."
Brees has a list. He is widely considered one of the top three quarterbacks of the past decade, along with Manning and Tom Brady. Brees and his New Orleans Saints beat Manning and the Indianapolis Colts the last time each was in a Super Bowl, after the 2009 season.
When asked about his top three quarterbacks of all time, Brees insisted on expansion.
"I have a top 15," Brees said at the Super Bowl media center in New York. "How can you possibly narrow it down to a top three? Here's a name for you: Why wouldn't you put Otto Graham in your top three? He had what, eight championships in 10 years?"
Graham led the Cleveland Browns to 10 championship games in 10 years (counting the team's place in the All-America Football Conference), winning seven.
"I actually looked at it at the end of the year," Brees said. "I was just curious. Fran Tarkenton played in three (Super Bowls). Marino and Elway. Of course, Johnny U. and Bart Starr.
"My point is, each set of guys you have to keep in their era and say these are the best in their time. I don't think you can compare. The game is different now than it was 10 years ago, than it was 20, than it was 50. I think you have to section them off and say these are the guys who were the best of that era and then you put them all together and it gives you guys something to talk about and argue about. But at the end of the day, you can't narrow it down to a top three."
On most lists, Joe Montana is at the top. He wasn't close to being the most physically gifted. Some say he benefited from playing in Bill Walsh's West Coast system, an innovative, unsolvable offense at the time.
Manning said it well, though, when he mentioned Montana's two-minute poise. As a quarterback, nothing beats poise under pressure. Montana was 4-0 in Super Bowls, including victories against Marino and Elway. Put Montana No. 1.
But say Manning wins the Super Bowl for the Broncos on Sunday against the Seattle Seahawks. Does he join Montana at the top?
Manning would have only half of Montana's Super Bowl-ring collection, but he'd be the first to win one each with two teams. So it's two Super Bowls with a bonus. And Manning would become the only quarterback with multiple Super Bowls, five MVP awards and more than 400 touchdown passes. He would also finish perhaps the best season in NFL history, setting all-time records for touchdown passes and passing yards.
"There's no guy that deserves to be in that conversation more than Peyton," Brees said. "I mean, he's the guy who set the standard for all of us. At least since I've been in the game. Tom Brady being the other one. He's the one playing in this game, so he's the one who deserves to be talked about. He's the man of the hour."
This story, though, is about whether he's the man of all time. Say the Broncos don't beat the Seahawks and their No. 1-rated defense. Does Manning slide to say, sixth best, alongside Marino, but behind Montana, Brady, Elway, Johnny Unitas and Graham?
"Crazy," said former Dallas Cowboys defensive end Ed "Too Tall" Jones.
"Absurd," said former Baltimore Ravens coach Brian Billick.
Going from elite to the very top
This Super Bowl would give the Broncos' Pat Bowlen his third Lombardi Trophy as owner, and Elway his first championship as executive after winning two as a quarterback. And it would seemingly lift Manning from merely one of the great quarterbacks based on his overall body of work to arguably neck and surgically repaired neck with Montana.
"You don't have to win a Super Bowl to be a great quarterback. But to be in the conversation for the great-EST, you got to have that jewelry," said Shannon Sharpe, the former Bronco and Hall of Fame tight end who is now an NFL analyst for CBS. "If you don't have the rings, you're not even in the conversation. So we're just skipping over you.
"Joe Montana has four rings. Terry Bradshaw has four. Tom Brady has three. Peyton Manning has one. I didn't set the criteria. But I'm not going to let you change it to make it fit what you think it should be."
If Manning and the Broncos are to beat the Seahawks, history must be defeated. Manning is the fourth quarterback to reach the Super Bowl after leading the NFL in both passing yards and touchdown passes during the regular season. The others were Tom Brady (2007), Kurt Warner (2001) and Dan Marino (1984).
All lost their Super Bowls, by a combined score of 75-47.
The Broncos' 606 points are the most scored by a team in a single season. Of the next eight teams on the all-time scoring list, not one went on to win the Super Bowl.
In the ultimate game, defense has ruled.
Then again, it's not all that uncommon in the modern era for trends to bust. The Green Bay Packers beat Pittsburgh in the Super Bowl four years ago largely because their quarterback, Aaron Rodgers, carved up the Steelers' No. 1-ranked scoring defense.
As great as Rodgers was in 2010 and 2011, Manning was better this season.
"I don't have a top five," said former NFL coach **** Vermeil. "But I do say Peyton's the best to have ever played that position. I've studied the numbers. I've taken all the numbers for the so-called great ones when they were great. His numbers are better."
But former Broncos running back Terrell Davis says Manning is not even the all-time best quarterback on his own team, much less the best, period. Davis would take Elway.
Why? Because with quarterbacks, Davis believes it's about more than the numbers.
"We do this in the world of sports, but they're all opinions," Davis said. "There are no facts. They're all subjective answers. If you ask me who threw for the most yards and most touchdowns, that's easy. Peyton Manning. Peyton Manning is the best. But if there are intangibles involved, if it's who got the most out of their team, that's debatable."
Combining traits of the greats
When Jones started talking about his top five quarterbacks, he pointed out traits nearly identical to Manning's idea of perfection. Elway had the strongest arm, Montana was the coolest. Marino, though, didn't have exclusivity on the release.
"Peyton and Marino have the two quickest releases of anybody I've ever seen," Jones said. "Manning is like a coach on the field. As a defensive player, if I could avoid playing against a Manning, I would."
Billick, an NFL Network analyst, immediately started his top five with Manning and Brady.
"I'll tell you one guy who's in there and nobody talks about him: Otto Graham," Billick said. "I saw film of him for a piece on NFL Films. It's a fascinating question."
Vermeil is 77 and started coaching football in 1959, so he has a little more context than most regarding any "all time" discussion. But this is an old-timer who doesn't stand up for the likes of Johnny Unitas or Otto Graham of yesteryear.
"We have a different game for quarterbacks," said Vermeil, who upon more reflection made Steve Young his second-best quarterback of all time.
"Quarterbacks were never asked then to do what quarterbacks are asked to do now. Bart Starr threw the ball 18, 19 times a game. That doesn't make him any less (great). It makes him great for that vintage. Just like the Model A was a great car for 1931. No one in 1931 liked a car any better than the Model A. But today it doesn't compare."
Before Manning-Brady, there were Sid Luckman and Sammy Baugh in the 1940s. There were similarities in the quarterback rivalries. Most notably that Manning, like Baugh, was considered the better quarterback, but Brady, like Luckman, prevailed more often head to head.
A legacy, as defined in the sports world, is how an athlete is to be remembered forever more. Manning's is at stake in this Super Bowl.
But whether he wins or loses the Super Bowl on Sunday, what will be accomplished if in 75 years no one will be around to call Manning the all-time greatest quarterback, anyhow?
"That's where "all time" gets tricky for me," Davis said. "I never saw Otto Graham play. We can only talk about the guys we've seen with our own eyes.
When you say 'all time,' I can only talk about 'my time.' "
Top 10 NFL quarterbacks
Denver Post NFL reporter Mike Klis lists his all-time best QBs. (If Denver loses Sunday, Manning drops behind Boss Elway, Unitas and Brady.)
1. Joe Montana
So methodically brilliant in going 4-0 in Super Bowls. His effortless big-game performances gave birth to the cliché "cool as the other side of the pillow."
2. Peyton Manning
No one ever played the position more efficiently. But it's a tough list, and the pick-six by Tracy Porter in a Super Bowl loss to New Orleans leaves him below Montana.
3. John Elway
Even if Manning was better, Elway was more mesmerizing. He could beat you by arm, by legs and by helicopter.
4. Johnny Unitas
He threw a touchdown pass in 47 consecutive games, a record that held for — get this — 52 years! Drew Brees didn't break it until 2012. Neither Montana nor Manning dominated their era as Johnny U. dominated his.
5. Tom Brady
He's not near the passer of Manning. Not even close. But there is a winning intangible about Brady that is difficult to describe.
6. Otto Graham
He went 4-0 in championship games in his first four AAFC seasons. Then he went 3-3 in NFL title games in his first six NFL seasons. But he threw 88 TD passes against 94 picks in the NFL, so don't get any ideas about a higher ranking.
7. Steve Young
This guy was so good, the 49ers gave up on Montana so they could give Young a chance to play. Might have been the all-time best combination of runner/high-percentage passer.
8. Sammy Baugh
As Babe Ruth brought the home run excitement to baseball, Baugh really delivered the forward pass to the NFL. He retired as the career leader in passing yards, touchdown passes, punt average and interceptions.
9. Brett Favre
A body of work counts, and besides one Super Bowl win, he holds all significant career passing records — at least until Peyton starts breaking them in the next year or two.
10. Bart Starr, Terry Bradshaw (tie)
Starr is the only quarterback to win five NFL championships, including Super Bowls I and II. Bradshaw went 4-0 in Super Bowls. They generally get docked because they led deeply talented teams.
Wish there was a longer list
Dan Marino, Troy Aikman, Sid Luckman, Joe Namath, Drew Brees, Fran Tarkenton, Arnie Herber, Norm Van Brocklin, Roger Staubach.
