QB Caleb Williams, CHI (2 Viewers)

[Rockchild]

He needs to both calm down and play with more urgency if that makes sense. The game is definitely not slowing down for him and maybe with more time in this offense it will but he seems to panic as soon as there is any potential sign of pressure.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

That they didn't break huddle AFTER the kickoff until it was under 10 seconds on the play clock was baffling. Were they exchanging recipes or something?

Didn't the same thing happen two weeks in a row last year?

 

[FreeBaGeL]

At the beginning of the game I saw comments about how good Caleb looks. He’s certainly nifty and athletic. He has a strong arm. Unfortunately, he still doesn’t throw with anticipation. He misses way too many layup throws. He still holds on to the ball too long. He doesn’t have great ball placement. I thought the Bears would get off to a slow start while learning the Ben Johnson offense. What concerns me is the lack of some fundamental QB skills Caleb lacks.

This is what I see too. His physical tools are 10/10. He's fast, big arm, can make all the throws.

But he very much lacks anticipation. He waits for guys to be open instead of throwing as they make their cut in anticipation of them coming open.

I think that's why his INT numbers are so low. Those anticipation throws do lead to more INTs, as we saw with JJ's pick 6 where he threw an out route with anticipation and kind of telegraphed it.

But it's a necessary part of being a QB in the NFL. You can't just wait for guys to be open like backyard football. You have to be able to throw an out route as the guy is making his break with the defender on his outside hip. You can't just wait until after he makes the break and see if he ends up open or not. A lot of Caleb's throws last night were just too late, and gave the defense too much time to recover.

This is a problem that a lot of fast, big armed QBs have. Because growing up, they can just wait and see if a guy is open, and if he's not they can run around until they find someone open. So they get into that routine and never really learn how to consistently throw with anticipation like they have to in the NFL where the pass rush is on a different level.

As others have pointed out, the other big problem is just his inconsistent accuracy in general. Those overthrows are the same as they were day 1. It's common to see that kind of thing with early jitters in a player's career, but it just hasn't gotten any better. 1 or 2 of those missed passes can be the difference in the game, but it happens. 5 or 6 times a game just sailing a ball over a receiver's head on what should have been a big play on a relatively easy throw is just game changing. As someone else pointed out, even that seam route to Kmet was a bad throw on a relatively routine NFL pass where Kmet made a great catch on a play where he shouldn't have had to.

 

[InDitkaWeTrust]

At the beginning of the game I saw comments about how good Caleb looks. He’s certainly nifty and athletic. He has a strong arm. Unfortunately, he still doesn’t throw with anticipation. He misses way too many layup throws. He still holds on to the ball too long. He doesn’t have great ball placement. I thought the Bears would get off to a slow start while learning the Ben Johnson offense. What concerns me is the lack of some fundamental QB skills Caleb lacks.

This is what I see too. His physical tools are 10/10. He's fast, big arm, can make all the throws.

But he very much lacks anticipation. He waits for guys to be open instead of throwing as they make their cut in anticipation of them coming open.

I think that's why his INT numbers are so low. Those anticipation throws do lead to more INTs, as we saw with JJ's pick 6 where he threw an out route with anticipation and kind of telegraphed it.

But it's a necessary part of being a QB in the NFL. You can't just wait for guys to be open like backyard football. You have to be able to throw an out route as the guy is making his break with the defender on his outside hip. You can't just wait until after he makes the break and see if he ends up open or not. A lot of Caleb's throws last night were just too late, and gave the defense too much time to recover.

This is a problem that a lot of fast, big armed QBs have. Because growing up, they can just wait and see if a guy is open, and if he's not they can run around until they find someone open. So they get into that routine and never really learn how to consistently throw with anticipation like they have to in the NFL where the pass rush is on a different level.

As others have pointed out, the other big problem is just his inconsistent accuracy in general. Those overthrows are the same as they were day 1. It's common to see that kind of thing with early jitters in a player's career, but it just hasn't gotten any better. 1 or 2 of those missed passes can be the difference in the game, but it happens. 5 or 6 times a game just sailing a ball over a receiver's head on what should have been a big play on a relatively easy throw is just game changing. As someone else pointed out, even that seam route to Kmet was a bad throw on a relatively routine NFL pass where Kmet made a great catch on a play where he shouldn't have had to.

After watching the game last night and rewatching it this morning, the biggest issue I have is with body language on the sidelines. During the first series, he was upbeat and happily socializing with other players. After that drive, he started sulking and it seemed to get worse as the game progressed and he really got into his own head. He also was visibly irritated with Braxton Jones who had 3 or 4 false start penalties. I think his accuracy on mid and long throws is related. He's playing tentative (like the end of last season) and as a result, he's sailing passes. I think these are things that can be fixed if he's open to coaching. We'll see how he progresses.

 

[Da Franchise]

At the beginning of the game I saw comments about how good Caleb looks. He’s certainly nifty and athletic. He has a strong arm. Unfortunately, he still doesn’t throw with anticipation. He misses way too many layup throws. He still holds on to the ball too long. He doesn’t have great ball placement. I thought the Bears would get off to a slow start while learning the Ben Johnson offense. What concerns me is the lack of some fundamental QB skills Caleb lacks.

This is what I see too. His physical tools are 10/10. He's fast, big arm, can make all the throws.

But he very much lacks anticipation. He waits for guys to be open instead of throwing as they make their cut in anticipation of them coming open.

I think that's why his INT numbers are so low. Those anticipation throws do lead to more INTs, as we saw with JJ's pick 6 where he threw an out route with anticipation and kind of telegraphed it.

But it's a necessary part of being a QB in the NFL. You can't just wait for guys to be open like backyard football. You have to be able to throw an out route as the guy is making his break with the defender on his outside hip. You can't just wait until after he makes the break and see if he ends up open or not. A lot of Caleb's throws last night were just too late, and gave the defense too much time to recover.

This is a problem that a lot of fast, big armed QBs have. Because growing up, they can just wait and see if a guy is open, and if he's not they can run around until they find someone open. So they get into that routine and never really learn how to consistently throw with anticipation like they have to in the NFL where the pass rush is on a different level.

As others have pointed out, the other big problem is just his inconsistent accuracy in general. Those overthrows are the same as they were day 1. It's common to see that kind of thing with early jitters in a player's career, but it just hasn't gotten any better. 1 or 2 of those missed passes can be the difference in the game, but it happens. 5 or 6 times a game just sailing a ball over a receiver's head on what should have been a big play on a relatively easy throw is just game changing. As someone else pointed out, even that seam route to Kmet was a bad throw on a relatively routine NFL pass where Kmet made a great catch on a play where he shouldn't have had to.

After watching the game last night and rewatching it this morning, the biggest issue I have is with body language on the sidelines. During the first series, he was upbeat and happily socializing with other players. After that drive, he started sulking and it seemed to get worse as the game progressed and he really got into his own head. He also was visibly irritated with Braxton Jones who had 3 or 4 false start penalties. I think his accuracy on mid and long throws is related. He's playing tentative (like the end of last season) and as a result, he's sailing passes. I think these are things that can be fixed if he's open to coaching. We'll see how he progresses.

Agree completely. And unfortunately for him last night really brought it to the forefront because we saw the exact reverse opposite happen with his QB counterpart.

Aikman went to bat for him after the game trying to calm everyone down and preach patience but I don’t know man, think we got a pretty good idea who he is by now. Not a bad guy or anything, but his demeanor is a net negative and then you have the on field questions too. And after the crap Ben Johnson pulled on the Commanders last year (canceling a HC interview while the team brass was already on the flight to come see him), I’m inclined to think they sort of mirror each other to some extent. I have nothing against the Bears but really don’t think that pairing is going to work at all.

 

[Big Nate]

At the beginning of the game I saw comments about how good Caleb looks. He’s certainly nifty and athletic. He has a strong arm. Unfortunately, he still doesn’t throw with anticipation. He misses way too many layup throws. He still holds on to the ball too long. He doesn’t have great ball placement. I thought the Bears would get off to a slow start while learning the Ben Johnson offense. What concerns me is the lack of some fundamental QB skills Caleb lacks.

This is what I see too. His physical tools are 10/10. He's fast, big arm, can make all the throws.

But he very much lacks anticipation. He waits for guys to be open instead of throwing as they make their cut in anticipation of them coming open.

I think that's why his INT numbers are so low. Those anticipation throws do lead to more INTs, as we saw with JJ's pick 6 where he threw an out route with anticipation and kind of telegraphed it.

But it's a necessary part of being a QB in the NFL. You can't just wait for guys to be open like backyard football. You have to be able to throw an out route as the guy is making his break with the defender on his outside hip. You can't just wait until after he makes the break and see if he ends up open or not. A lot of Caleb's throws last night were just too late, and gave the defense too much time to recover.

This is a problem that a lot of fast, big armed QBs have. Because growing up, they can just wait and see if a guy is open, and if he's not they can run around until they find someone open. So they get into that routine and never really learn how to consistently throw with anticipation like they have to in the NFL where the pass rush is on a different level.

As others have pointed out, the other big problem is just his inconsistent accuracy in general. Those overthrows are the same as they were day 1. It's common to see that kind of thing with early jitters in a player's career, but it just hasn't gotten any better. 1 or 2 of those missed passes can be the difference in the game, but it happens. 5 or 6 times a game just sailing a ball over a receiver's head on what should have been a big play on a relatively easy throw is just game changing. As someone else pointed out, even that seam route to Kmet was a bad throw on a relatively routine NFL pass where Kmet made a great catch on a play where he shouldn't have had to.

After watching the game last night and rewatching it this morning, the biggest issue I have is with body language on the sidelines. During the first series, he was upbeat and happily socializing with other players. After that drive, he started sulking and it seemed to get worse as the game progressed and he really got into his own head. He also was visibly irritated with Braxton Jones who had 3 or 4 false start penalties. I think his accuracy on mid and long throws is related. He's playing tentative (like the end of last season) and as a result, he's sailing passes. I think these are things that can be fixed if he's open to coaching. We'll see how he progresses.

Some good points here. I was visibly getting upset with the 4 false starts - all seemingly within a few minutes. Threw off the momentum - they need to do better.

Caleb had some good throws and others that sailed. The ones that sailed (3 that I saw) were all the right reads and a good decision but the ball sailed - and of course one was the potential TD near the end to DJM.

Game 1, new offense, everyone learning and will take some time to get on the same page. Caleb did some good things and other things he still needs to work on.

What gets me are the people (not necessarily you) that write him off and leave zero room for growth. Say things like "we know who he is, seen it all" blah blah. The pressure on these kids to produce immediately with no room for growth (physically, mentally, maturity) is off the charts.

Second half MIN gets huge credit for putting pressure on Caleb and the bears in general. Swift did everything physically possible to get yards running as there was nothing open. Vikings D were playing lights out in the 2nd half and that caused a lot of the issues we saw - in the backfield tackling Swift and pressuring Caleb. One play their D-lineman came in untouched and sacked Caleb. Not his fault. The more it went on the more uncomfortable it got for the bears.

I saw some good things and some things Caleb and the team need to work on. It is week 1.

 

[doeseatplace]

He needs to both calm down and play with more urgency if that makes sense.

Very well stated

 

[calcinorjones]

some good but considering the can’t miss hype and the success other QBs in the draft class - its beyond frustrating

I think this is a thing for lots of people.

I don't know any other player who has more sensitive/protective supporters than Williams, but he came into the league billed as a generational talent. This wasn't remotely a normal first round pick. And not a normal first overall pick. For instance, the hype for Cam Ward was off the charts different.

And so were the expectations.

Most of the blame for last year was deflected to the coaches, and they were removed.

We're all super interested to see how he fares in year two with a renowned offensive-minded coach.

As I've said, one of the more interesting storylines in the league this year.

And when you add in 40 years of no championships and the stigma of the org missing on the franchise QB, its a precarious situation.

 

[Joe Bryant]

More on expectations.

https://x.com/brgridiron/status/1965269828480237877

Caleb Williams has now lost to
Jayden Daniels
Drake Maye
J.J. McCarthy

And no, wins against other QBs isn't everything. But it's something that helps explain the mood.

 

[Donnybrook]

Funny how much a W can effect the story line. Never been fan of Caleb but I thought he played great under-duress. Better athlete than I gave him credit for turned several sacks into positive plays and first downs. Definitely don't think Tyson Bagget would have fared better than Caleb last night.

 

[Gally]

I wonder if the head coaching inexperience played a significant part in the tale of two halves. By that I mean games are won/lost on adjustments and as a new head coach it didn't look like the Bears made adjustments and the Vikings did. I am not saying Caleb played great in the 2nd half but the defensive pressure and offensive game plans for the Vikes definitely improved greatly. JJM played great and got better as the game went along but how much of that is coaching adjustments putting him in that position.

So while Ben Johnson is a great offensive mind being a head coach is different than being a coordinator. I wonder how much of that inexperience played in the turn around and adjustments made (or not made) between the two teams.

I saw Caleb look better than he was last year in a lot of ways. He did miss throws he should make for sure. But I thought he was better poised than last year. While I do like the lack of turnovers he does need to take more chances to open things up a bit. There is a fine line between risking turnovers to make plays and being careless with the ball. I think he needs to skew a little more to risk taking at times.

Overall he needs to improve his accuracy but I thought this was a step in the right direction.

 

[Smack Tripper]

I wonder if the head coaching inexperience played a significant part in the tale of two halves. By that I mean games are won/lost on adjustments and as a new head coach it didn't look like the Bears made adjustments and the Vikings did. I am not saying Caleb played great in the 2nd half but the defensive pressure and offensive game plans for the Vikes definitely improved greatly. JJM played great and got better as the game went along but how much of that is coaching adjustments putting him in that position.

So while Ben Johnson is a great offensive mind being a head coach is different than being a coordinator. I wonder how much of that inexperience played in the turn around and adjustments made (or not made) between the two teams.

I saw Caleb look better than he was last year in a lot of ways. He did miss throws he should make for sure. But I thought he was better poised than last year. While I do like the lack of turnovers he does need to take more chances to open things up a bit. There is a fine line between risking turnovers to make plays and being careless with the ball. I think he needs to skew a little more to risk taking at times.

Overall he needs to improve his accuracy but I thought this was a step in the right direction.

great point

 

[cdclopper]

I wonder if the head coaching inexperience played a significant part in the tale of two halves. By that I mean games are won/lost on adjustments and as a new head coach it didn't look like the Bears made adjustments and the Vikings did. I am not saying Caleb played great in the 2nd half but the defensive pressure and offensive game plans for the Vikes definitely improved greatly. JJM played great and got better as the game went along but how much of that is coaching adjustments putting him in that position.

So while Ben Johnson is a great offensive mind being a head coach is different than being a coordinator. I wonder how much of that inexperience played in the turn around and adjustments made (or not made) between the two teams.

Why is it always the coach with this guy?

Well it's like Aikman was saying the whole, there were bears receivers that were open. And either CW was missing them w the throw or by failing to see. I just dont see how it could be anybody else's fault other than Caleb's.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Why is it always the coach with this guy?

Because it obviously can't be Williams' fault...

Seriously, few people felt he had a good coaching situation last year.

That's completely changed now.

But I hear you, at some point, it's not about the coach anymore. That's why I'm so interested to see this year.

 

[TheDirtyWord]

I had read the Tyler Dunne story. And frankly it would have concerned me if I were a fan of the Bears/Caleb.

But I thought Caleb showed real growth last night...but also showed that he has a ways to go in learning how to be an NFL QB. The good news from my POV is that it was clear, he has bought into Ben Johnson. But I think he's been able to skate by on talent for so long that the process of learning to listen to others, build trust with them and play within structure...it's just going to take time. And it may be something that he'll always have to work on and pay attention to since it probably doesn't come naturally like his physical skillset does.

But, a definite step in the right direction.

 

[VaTerp]

At the beginning of the game I saw comments about how good Caleb looks. He’s certainly nifty and athletic. He has a strong arm. Unfortunately, he still doesn’t throw with anticipation. He misses way too many layup throws. He still holds on to the ball too long. He doesn’t have great ball placement. I thought the Bears would get off to a slow start while learning the Ben Johnson offense. What concerns me is the lack of some fundamental QB skills Caleb lacks.

This is what I see too. His physical tools are 10/10. He's fast, big arm, can make all the throws.

But he very much lacks anticipation. He waits for guys to be open instead of throwing as they make their cut in anticipation of them coming open.

I think that's why his INT numbers are so low. Those anticipation throws do lead to more INTs, as we saw with JJ's pick 6 where he threw an out route with anticipation and kind of telegraphed it.

But it's a necessary part of being a QB in the NFL. You can't just wait for guys to be open like backyard football. You have to be able to throw an out route as the guy is making his break with the defender on his outside hip. You can't just wait until after he makes the break and see if he ends up open or not. A lot of Caleb's throws last night were just too late, and gave the defense too much time to recover.

This is a problem that a lot of fast, big armed QBs have. Because growing up, they can just wait and see if a guy is open, and if he's not they can run around until they find someone open. So they get into that routine and never really learn how to consistently throw with anticipation like they have to in the NFL where the pass rush is on a different level.

As others have pointed out, the other big problem is just his inconsistent accuracy in general. Those overthrows are the same as they were day 1. It's common to see that kind of thing with early jitters in a player's career, but it just hasn't gotten any better. 1 or 2 of those missed passes can be the difference in the game, but it happens. 5 or 6 times a game just sailing a ball over a receiver's head on what should have been a big play on a relatively easy throw is just game changing. As someone else pointed out, even that seam route to Kmet was a bad throw on a relatively routine NFL pass where Kmet made a great catch on a play where he shouldn't have had to.

After watching the game last night and rewatching it this morning, the biggest issue I have is with body language on the sidelines. During the first series, he was upbeat and happily socializing with other players. After that drive, he started sulking and it seemed to get worse as the game progressed and he really got into his own head. He also was visibly irritated with Braxton Jones who had 3 or 4 false start penalties. I think his accuracy on mid and long throws is related. He's playing tentative (like the end of last season) and as a result, he's sailing passes. I think these are things that can be fixed if he's open to coaching. We'll see how he progresses.

Agree completely. And unfortunately for him last night really brought it to the forefront because we saw the exact reverse opposite happen with his QB counterpart.

Aikman went to bat for him after the game trying to calm everyone down and preach patience but I don’t know man, think we got a pretty good idea who he is by now. Not a bad guy or anything, but his demeanor is a net negative and then you have the on field questions too. And after the crap Ben Johnson pulled on the Commanders last year (canceling a HC interview while the team brass was already on the flight to come see him), I’m inclined to think they sort of mirror each other to some extent. I have nothing against the Bears but really don’t think that pairing is going to work at all.

Ironic that Ben Johnson ends up in Chicago with Caleb after what unfolded last offseason with him and WAS. There was also an unsubstantiated report that Johnson wanted to keep Sam Howell instead of drafting Jayden Daniels at #2 but who knows if that's true. We will never really know what went down and exactly how things unfolded but I'm glad how things have worked out in retrospect as a WAS fan.

A lot of good points already made about Caleb's lack of anticipation and habit of being able to hold the ball and make plays off schedule at levels below the NFL due to his physical tools.

But I do think his relative lack of height at the position is not helping him see the field. He really seems to struggle to find passing lanes at times, which I think contributes to him not getting the ball out quick. What Tom Brady's success taught me is that while we love to talk about arm talent, athleticism, etc. perhaps there is no more important trait than getting the ball out of your hands to avoid negative plays. Take the short throws to move the ball and create favorable down and distance. Taking the layups as was mentioned above. Being able to see over lineman and not wait for passing lanes as much really helps with that IMO.

One of the things that strikes me when watching Jayden Daniels and seeing him next to other people is his height. He's a legit 6'4. Caleb at 6'1 doesnt seem that much shorter but its a game of inches in more ways than one. Really makes me appreciate guys like Drew Brees and Brock Purdy. Mahomes is only listed as 6'2 and the comparisons to his ability to make plays off schedule is a lot of what played into Caleb's hype. But again, game of inches and Mahomes just looks and plays taller to me.

Caleb is starting to remind me a bit of Baker Mayfield in height and playstyle. #1 overall pick, Heisman winner, a lot of physical tools. But took him 4 teams to finally land as a franchise QB. Anyways, my $0.02 when watching him play. He rarely looks fully comfortable in the pocket and IMO its in part due to not seeing the field and passing lanes as well.

 

[oswizzle]

Should have just kept developing Fields

 

[General Malaise]

I would take Daniels and Maye over Williams TBH.

I'd take Nix over Williams too....maybe even Penix.

If you'd rather have all these dudes than Caleb, I don't think you're bullish on him.

Tommy, how do you rank the 2024 QB draft class today?

 

[Big Nate]

I wonder if the head coaching inexperience played a significant part in the tale of two halves. By that I mean games are won/lost on adjustments and as a new head coach it didn't look like the Bears made adjustments and the Vikings did. I am not saying Caleb played great in the 2nd half but the defensive pressure and offensive game plans for the Vikes definitely improved greatly. JJM played great and got better as the game went along but how much of that is coaching adjustments putting him in that position.

So while Ben Johnson is a great offensive mind being a head coach is different than being a coordinator. I wonder how much of that inexperience played in the turn around and adjustments made (or not made) between the two teams.

Why is it always the coach with this guy?

Well it's like Aikman was saying the whole, there were bears receivers that were open. And either CW was missing them w the throw or by failing to see. I just dont see how it could be anybody else's fault other than Caleb's.

It isn't just one thing and it isn't as simple as Caleb is good or bad. We are just pointing out it is a new coaching staff, everyone is learning and maybe, just maybe it is going to take some time. It is game 1.

Reality:
Caleb looked good at times.
Caleb still needs to work on certain things
Offence needs time to gel and learn the playbook
Coaches are new and implementing a new system
Ben Johnson is trying to implement the offence while also being a first time head coach

It might just take time. But the people who don't like BJ and the people who don't like Caleb are loving the fact they lost and are already victory lapping.

As an example it took Goff some time to get comfortable in the NFL as well with BJs system. Not saying Caleb will be elite or even great but why can't he continue to grow?

 

[Big Nate]

Should have just kept developing Fields

Maybe it just takes time for young QBs and everyone is different and on their own path?

 

[LawFitz]

I don't know any other player who has more sensitive/protective fans than Williams

"Hold my beer"
- Kenny Walker III

 

[Manster]

He was my back up in a yahoo league. Penix was still out there. Dumped Caleb for Penix this AM, and I feel pretty good about it.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Should have just kept developing Fields

Maybe it just takes time for young QBs and everyone is different and on their own path?

And that's the question, right?

It's such a tough situation as the Jayden Daniels put pressure on everyone else to be good right away.

It's a challenge.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Won’t be the first time I’m wrong if Caleb is a bust, and certainly not the last. It’s obvious that he hasn’t immediately taken over the league by storm as predicted by some as his legend grew in HS & college.

But I’m still on board. The talent is there, and he’s dynamic running the ball with great speed and agility. But he absolutely hasn’t been as accurate as I anticipated thus far.

Vikings are a good D, and this was game one. We’ll see.

 

[Gally]

Why is it always the coach with this guy?

I am not solely blaming the coaching. I am not saying Caleb didn't play poorly at times. But that entire game switched in the second half. Not just Caleb. The Bears Defense, the Vikings offensive play calls, the Vikes defensive pressure. All of it flipped. It wasn't just Caleb. That was my entire point.

I am not using coaching as an excuse for Caleb but I am saying that the whole game switched and maybe some of that was because Johnson didn't make halftime adjustments (or not good ones) while KOC and the Vikings did. More of a statement regarding the entire Bears vs Vikings game than about Caleb all by himself.

 

[Gally]

That's completely changed now.

But I hear you, at some point, it's not about the coach anymore. That's why I'm so interested to see this year.

While the offensive coaching is better that doesn't mean that the coaching the entire game aspects is quite there yet. Johnson being a first year head coach has more to worry about then just offensive play calls. Obviously, there were adjustments made at halftime by the Vikings and KOC that flipped the game. Vikings D got more pressure and completely stopped the run, Vikings O started running better and getting ahead of the sticks allowing more play action and the O-line gave JJM more time. I think a lot of that was based on halftime adjustments from a more veteran head coach vs the inexperience of a first time head coach.

Not that Caleb had no blame but the defensive looks were different and he faced a lot more pressure from the D-line. He missed throws he should make. That's on him. But the loss was a team collapse. That was my point.

 

[pinkstapler]

Stats don't tell the whole story, obviously; although IMO for a fantasy football forum they do hold more weight in assessment/argument than real world football.

19/30 for 233 with 1 TD 0 Int and 11 for 68 on the ground
21/35 for 210 with 1 TD 0 Int and 6 for 58 on the ground with another TD

For such similar stat lines, the discourse around these two QBs after the first week seems..... excessive? histrionic? Did I miss all the posts by people claiming Caleb would be Lamar Jackson week 1? That a few months with a new coach was going to immediately fix problems in his game he's had since college; even before last years coaching flubs? You'd think scorned owners drafted Williams at QB6 not QB16 like his ADP the whole off-season.

I don't know the exact word, but lord, ignoring the numbers and just going by statements online/on tv you'd think that top stat line should be getting fit for his HoF jacket already while the other should be relegated to the arena league in another week or two. This whole thread in particular is bringing out my internal Sancho Panza, with the phrase "tilting at windmills" coming to mind.

 

[rockaction]

Stats don't tell the whole story, obviously; although IMO for a fantasy football forum they do hold more weight in assessment/argument than real world football.

19/30 for 233 with 1 TD 0 Int and 11 for 68 on the ground
21/35 for 210 with 1 TD 0 Int and 6 for 58 on the ground with another TD

For such similar stat lines, the discourse around these two QBs after the first week seems..... excessive? histrionic? Did I miss all the posts by people claiming Caleb would be Lamar Jackson week 1? That a few months with a new coach was going to immediately fix problems in his game he's had since college; even before last years coaching flubs? You'd think scorned owners drafted Williams at QB6 not QB16 like his ADP the whole off-season.

I don't know the exact word, but lord, ignoring the numbers and just going by statements online/on tv you'd think that top stat line should be getting fit for his HoF jacket already while the other should be relegated to the arena league in another week or two. This whole thread in particular is bringing out my internal Sancho Panza, with the phrase "tilting at windmills" coming to mind.

Not really. You know I'm pretty reasonable. You're not just talking QB16 in redraft. You're talking to Superflex dynasty owners that took him 1.01 over Daniels and every other player in that draft class. This isn't just a redraft thing. The people that took him 1.01 and read the Dunne article feel totally snowed. I was skeptical of this dude because I'm relatively local to Los Angeles, but all of the family stuff and weird behavior was supposedly vetted by the Bears and now you're getting the downstream effect of it.

Shouldn't be surprising at all.

 

[Chaka]

Stats don't tell the whole story, obviously; although IMO for a fantasy football forum they do hold more weight in assessment/argument than real world football.

19/30 for 233 with 1 TD 0 Int and 11 for 68 on the ground
21/35 for 210 with 1 TD 0 Int and 6 for 58 on the ground with another TD

For such similar stat lines, the discourse around these two QBs after the first week seems..... excessive? histrionic? Did I miss all the posts by people claiming Caleb would be Lamar Jackson week 1? That a few months with a new coach was going to immediately fix problems in his game he's had since college; even before last years coaching flubs? You'd think scorned owners drafted Williams at QB6 not QB16 like his ADP the whole off-season.

I don't know the exact word, but lord, ignoring the numbers and just going by statements online/on tv you'd think that top stat line should be getting fit for his HoF jacket already while the other should be relegated to the arena league in another week or two. This whole thread in particular is bringing out my internal Sancho Panza, with the phrase "tilting at windmills" coming to mind.

Not really. You know I'm pretty reasonable. You're not just talking QB16 in redraft. You're talking to Superflex dynasty owners that took him 1.01 over Daniels and every other player in that draft class. This isn't just a redraft thing. The people that took him 1.01 and read the Dunne article feel totally snowed. I was skeptical of this dude because I'm relatively local to Los Angeles, but all of the family stuff and weird behavior was supposedly vetted by the Bears and now you're getting the downstream effect of it.

Shouldn't be surprising at all.

That's true. To be fair though Caleb actually had a solid year statistically in 2024. 3,500 yards, 20 TDs, 6 INT, 489 on the ground. And people have been freaking out about it. Jayden and Nix had great rookie seasons, kudos to them but Caleb didn't suck in the stat column and our hobby is based on stats not NFL efficiency.

I am happy to discuss his flaws, and I have at length, but, it is fair to say there has been a ton of Chicken Littling going on from the people who invested in him.

 

[Dizzy]

It seemed to me that his decision making was actually ok (not good but not terrible for a young QB). What wasn't ok? HIs accuracy with ANY kind of pressure. IN that second half it seemed like if any defender was within 4 feet of him he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. He missed a ton of throws that the overwhelming majority of NFL QBs hit.
NOt sure that's fixable.

It really didn't look like he was reading anything either.

Even on that first drive it really looked like he struggled when he tried to stand in the pocket. He seemed to come off his first read incredibly fast and checked down. His only play of note was the scramble where he hit Odunze.

About the only thing that impressed me was his escapability, he made this Minnesota defensive lineman look like they were running in quicksand for most of the night.

He also seems to be naturally careful with the ball but, he's probably too careful. Which is why he's coming off his reads so early.

Physically he's all world, but right now he's a lot more Ryan Leaf mentally than Peyton Manning.

This is the stage gate that he (most) young QBs need to get past. Throwing with anticipation instead of waiting to see that a receiver is coming open. In the latter case of course, it's too late... gotta eat it or check it down.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

I'd be happy if the main takeaway from all this is no one ever uses the adjective "generational" to describe a football player, ever again. I realize we live in a world where commonplace daily experiences are now typically described as being "amazing" but the term "generational" has a specific meaning and it doesn't happen before he's taken a snap in the league.

 

[rockaction]

I'd be happy if the main takeaway from all this is no one ever uses the adjective "generational" to describe a football player, ever again. I realize we live in a world where commonplace daily experiences are now typically described as being "amazing" but the term "generational" has a specific meaning and it doesn't happen before he's taken a snap in the league.

I thought it was fair with Saquon but it seems like once that actually seemed true that we then decided to apply it to everybody and everything. I think Saquon's 2,000 yards and his reverse aerial over that dude last year sort of justified all of that in retrospect.

 

[General Malaise]

Stats don't tell the whole story, obviously; although IMO for a fantasy football forum they do hold more weight in assessment/argument than real world football.

19/30 for 233 with 1 TD 0 Int and 11 for 68 on the ground
21/35 for 210 with 1 TD 0 Int and 6 for 58 on the ground with another TD

For such similar stat lines, the discourse around these two QBs after the first week seems..... excessive? histrionic? Did I miss all the posts by people claiming Caleb would be Lamar Jackson week 1? That a few months with a new coach was going to immediately fix problems in his game he's had since college; even before last years coaching flubs? You'd think scorned owners drafted Williams at QB6 not QB16 like his ADP the whole off-season.

I don't know the exact word, but lord, ignoring the numbers and just going by statements online/on tv you'd think that top stat line should be getting fit for his HoF jacket already while the other should be relegated to the arena league in another week or two. This whole thread in particular is bringing out my internal Sancho Panza, with the phrase "tilting at windmills" coming to mind.

Not really. You know I'm pretty reasonable. You're not just talking QB16 in redraft. You're talking to Superflex dynasty owners that took him 1.01 over Daniels and every other player in that draft class. This isn't just a redraft thing. The people that took him 1.01 and read the Dunne article feel totally snowed. I was skeptical of this dude because I'm relatively local to Los Angeles, but all of the family stuff and weird behavior was supposedly vetted by the Bears and now you're getting the downstream effect of it.

Shouldn't be surprising at all.

That's true. To be fair though Caleb actually had a solid year statistically in 2024. 3,500 yards, 20 TDs, 6 INT, 489 on the ground. And people have been freaking out about it. Jayden and Nix had great rookie seasons, kudos to them but Caleb didn't suck in the stat column and our hobby is based on stats not NFL efficiency.

I am happy to discuss his flaws, and I have at length, but, it is fair to say there has been a ton of Chicken Littling going on from the people who invested in him.

68 sacks in 2024.

If he cuts that number down through improved OL play, faster decision making, getting rid of the ball on time, etc. then yes, we are looking at a good to potentially great fantasy QB.

But man....that is a staggering amount of punishment for a body to absorb. The injury risk is augmented but there is also an erosion of confidence that chased other top talents out of starting roles early; David Carr is a great example of this, though he was about as mobile as me.

I also worry that a failure to reduce the sack rate could lead to a change at QB. How many press conferences have we witnessed where a backup QB made headlines for inking a nice extension? Not too many.

If the hit piece on Caleb is accurate, how long before this coaching regime considers a change? The OL might have some opinions too.

 

[pinkstapler]

Stats don't tell the whole story, obviously; although IMO for a fantasy football forum they do hold more weight in assessment/argument than real world football.

19/30 for 233 with 1 TD 0 Int and 11 for 68 on the ground
21/35 for 210 with 1 TD 0 Int and 6 for 58 on the ground with another TD

For such similar stat lines, the discourse around these two QBs after the first week seems..... excessive? histrionic? Did I miss all the posts by people claiming Caleb would be Lamar Jackson week 1? That a few months with a new coach was going to immediately fix problems in his game he's had since college; even before last years coaching flubs? You'd think scorned owners drafted Williams at QB6 not QB16 like his ADP the whole off-season.

I don't know the exact word, but lord, ignoring the numbers and just going by statements online/on tv you'd think that top stat line should be getting fit for his HoF jacket already while the other should be relegated to the arena league in another week or two. This whole thread in particular is bringing out my internal Sancho Panza, with the phrase "tilting at windmills" coming to mind.

Not really. You know I'm pretty reasonable. You're not just talking QB16 in redraft. You're talking to Superflex dynasty owners that took him 1.01 over Daniels and every other player in that draft class. This isn't just a redraft thing. The people that took him 1.01 and read the Dunne article feel totally snowed. I was skeptical of this dude because I'm relatively local to Los Angeles, but all of the family stuff and weird behavior was supposedly vetted by the Bears and now you're getting the downstream effect of it.

Shouldn't be surprising at all.

I don't care to debate the Dunne article because I doubt people will be changing opinions on it. But after reading the entire thing yesterday, not just the free sample; mine is that Dunne didn't have any "factual information". He had the quotes and anecdotes from unnamed sources who were obviously some of the coaches on the staff who got fired for being bad at their jobs. (Apparently minus Matt Eberflus who was reached out to for comment but didn't want to participate; can't refind the source on this one though). The tone, and quite frankly some of the verbage, made it clear the sources had an axe to grind. Which I can kind of understand, as much as I think it's a dirt bag last resort to hopefully maintain future employment in the league. I'm sure they might have felt it was a "fair" response to the stories we got earlier this off season about how inept they were and basically did nothing to help Caleb eg. watching tape on his own. I noticed they didn't directly refute that report, but rather tried to spin it that Caleb Williams is just so dumb it wouldn't have mattered. That he wasn't worth helping. Going as far as directly stating specific learning disabilities he has. Feels like potential malfeasance and potential HIPAA violation but IANAL.

Really what bothered me most was it was an obvious hit piece, put forth by Dunne under the guise of "Hey, I'm just quoting these guys. I'm just asking questions, and these are the answers," seemingly shirking any and all responsibility of himself. Which again, fair enough. I'm still going to judge the f out of him for it. It comes off as the guy at work who's saying "Well... people are saying you're too dumb to do this job. Not me. Just people." There was no balanced reporting, there was 0 effort to refute or even question the validity of the statements from these unnamed sources. There was no attempt by Dunne to deliver any alternate take or theory. Which is within his right as a reporter; but as a reader that's what makes me seriously question not only what was said in that article, but his own motivations. Add in the fact it was dropped just days prior to the start of this new season... I'm just not very open to being convinced otherwise.

That all said; it could all be 100% true. I've done marriage counseling with exes who loathe one another and say the most horrendous things. And a lot of times the information they are giving is spot on. But it also doesn't change the fact it's coming from a place of inherent bias, and with morally questionable motivations. So until I have independent and unbiased factual information that corroborates it; I don't believe it. But even working under the premise the information in that article was true and unbiased; to me it still paints a picture of a wildly inept and unprofessional coaching staff. Dyslexia is not going to make a QB unable to utilize any other pre-snap calls than "ready, set, go". And peewee QBs in Texas are able to be taught more complex presnap calls.

I find it hard not to ask myself what is more likely; that Caleb Willims was able to make it to age 23, forget the largely successful career as QB to this point, but just that he was completely able to bypass two+ decades of teachers and general social interactions completely hiding himself having such a low IQ and unparalleled learning disability that he cannot retain presnap calls that 12 year olds are capable of. Or... that a frustrated coaching staff was either unwilling or incapable of getting him to that point? I'm all about shades of gray and totally willing to say the answer to that question might be a mix of both. But man is it hard to believe it's not a HELL OF A LOT of one more than the other.

And then, this may ruffle some feathers, but IMO it was laced throughout with insinuations of homophobia. Wish people here knew me IRL and would understand how far removed I am from being any kind of person who throws around allegations like that. If anything, I'm often accused of being too insensitive to what most would consider the popularized social issues. I think all the -phobias and -isms are wayyyy over used in society today, watering them down to the point of almost meaninglessness. But going back to the article; numerous word and phrasing choices throughout told a story in the story IMO. "Williams sashayed away" "This glitzy gazelle", etc etc. Words have meaning and obvious choices were made. Dunne is not some new guy on the scene. Even if these were more quotes than his own choices, he knew what he was weaving together. The whole thing felt gross to me.

I honestly was going to avoid having any commentary on the article because it really brought several levels of frustration out of me. But there's my diatribe lol. I don't expect others to agree, and again, don't really wish to debate it. Just felt I couldn't adequately reply without explaining my take on it. Again; maybe some/most/all of what's in there is true. Even right down to what's presented as severe learning disabilities. I just can't accept the opinions of scorned lovers at face value; especially devoid of really any other evidence. Maybe if he was Zach Wilson level of bad QB play it would be easier. Or maybe if he presented in his media interviews with a tone of indignation that they describe. Maybe if their were murmers from HS and college coaches and teammates. But, unless I've missed all those articles/reports, I'm unaware they exist. All I know is he was mediocre as a rookie in a dysfunctional situation with a bunch of coaches most people said were going to suck within hours of being hired. Waiting to see how he's looking in November/December to reassess now that he has what seems like a good coach. And will probably avoid most of the other discourse on him until that time.

 

[urbanhack]

Stats don't tell the whole story, obviously; although IMO for a fantasy football forum they do hold more weight in assessment/argument than real world football.

19/30 for 233 with 1 TD 0 Int and 11 for 68 on the ground
21/35 for 210 with 1 TD 0 Int and 6 for 58 on the ground with another TD

For such similar stat lines, the discourse around these two QBs after the first week seems..... excessive? histrionic? Did I miss all the posts by people claiming Caleb would be Lamar Jackson week 1? That a few months with a new coach was going to immediately fix problems in his game he's had since college; even before last years coaching flubs? You'd think scorned owners drafted Williams at QB6 not QB16 like his ADP the whole off-season.

I don't know the exact word, but lord, ignoring the numbers and just going by statements online/on tv you'd think that top stat line should be getting fit for his HoF jacket already while the other should be relegated to the arena league in another week or two. This whole thread in particular is bringing out my internal Sancho Panza, with the phrase "tilting at windmills" coming to mind.

Not really. You know I'm pretty reasonable. You're not just talking QB16 in redraft. You're talking to Superflex dynasty owners that took him 1.01 over Daniels and every other player in that draft class. This isn't just a redraft thing. The people that took him 1.01 and read the Dunne article feel totally snowed. I was skeptical of this dude because I'm relatively local to Los Angeles, but all of the family stuff and weird behavior was supposedly vetted by the Bears and now you're getting the downstream effect of it.

Shouldn't be surprising at all.

That's true. To be fair though Caleb actually had a solid year statistically in 2024. 3,500 yards, 20 TDs, 6 INT, 489 on the ground. And people have been freaking out about it. Jayden and Nix had great rookie seasons, kudos to them but Caleb didn't suck in the stat column and our hobby is based on stats not NFL efficiency.

I am happy to discuss his flaws, and I have at length, but, it is fair to say there has been a ton of Chicken Littling going on from the people who invested in him.

68 sacks in 2024.

If he cuts that number down through improved OL play, faster decision making, getting rid of the ball on time, etc. then yes, we are looking at a good to potentially great fantasy QB.

But man....that is a staggering amount of punishment for a body to absorb. The injury risk is augmented but there is also an erosion of confidence that chased other top talents out of starting roles early; David Carr is a great example of this, though he was about as mobile as me.

I also worry that a failure to reduce the sack rate could lead to a change at QB. How many press conferences have we witnessed where a backup QB made headlines for inking a nice extension? Not too many.

If the hit piece on Caleb is accurate, how long before this coaching regime considers a change? The OL might have some opinions too.

The one sack last night he wasn't even hit, he just ran out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage.

 

[General Malaise]

I read the free section of the article and wasn't about to drop a penny to continue on. It stunk of bias a writer trying to emphasize his beliefs with unnamed sources. How bold.

But what was the author's motivation for putting in the time and effort to write it and publish it? If I read a short-seller's hit piece on a stock, I know the motivation. What's Dunne's angle here?

 

[General Malaise]

Stats don't tell the whole story, obviously; although IMO for a fantasy football forum they do hold more weight in assessment/argument than real world football.

19/30 for 233 with 1 TD 0 Int and 11 for 68 on the ground
21/35 for 210 with 1 TD 0 Int and 6 for 58 on the ground with another TD

For such similar stat lines, the discourse around these two QBs after the first week seems..... excessive? histrionic? Did I miss all the posts by people claiming Caleb would be Lamar Jackson week 1? That a few months with a new coach was going to immediately fix problems in his game he's had since college; even before last years coaching flubs? You'd think scorned owners drafted Williams at QB6 not QB16 like his ADP the whole off-season.

I don't know the exact word, but lord, ignoring the numbers and just going by statements online/on tv you'd think that top stat line should be getting fit for his HoF jacket already while the other should be relegated to the arena league in another week or two. This whole thread in particular is bringing out my internal Sancho Panza, with the phrase "tilting at windmills" coming to mind.

Not really. You know I'm pretty reasonable. You're not just talking QB16 in redraft. You're talking to Superflex dynasty owners that took him 1.01 over Daniels and every other player in that draft class. This isn't just a redraft thing. The people that took him 1.01 and read the Dunne article feel totally snowed. I was skeptical of this dude because I'm relatively local to Los Angeles, but all of the family stuff and weird behavior was supposedly vetted by the Bears and now you're getting the downstream effect of it.

Shouldn't be surprising at all.

That's true. To be fair though Caleb actually had a solid year statistically in 2024. 3,500 yards, 20 TDs, 6 INT, 489 on the ground. And people have been freaking out about it. Jayden and Nix had great rookie seasons, kudos to them but Caleb didn't suck in the stat column and our hobby is based on stats not NFL efficiency.

I am happy to discuss his flaws, and I have at length, but, it is fair to say there has been a ton of Chicken Littling going on from the people who invested in him.

68 sacks in 2024.

If he cuts that number down through improved OL play, faster decision making, getting rid of the ball on time, etc. then yes, we are looking at a good to potentially great fantasy QB.

But man....that is a staggering amount of punishment for a body to absorb. The injury risk is augmented but there is also an erosion of confidence that chased other top talents out of starting roles early; David Carr is a great example of this, though he was about as mobile as me.

I also worry that a failure to reduce the sack rate could lead to a change at QB. How many press conferences have we witnessed where a backup QB made headlines for inking a nice extension? Not too many.

If the hit piece on Caleb is accurate, how long before this coaching regime considers a change? The OL might have some opinions too.

The one sack last night he wasn't even hit, he just ran out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage.

This is why I put "2024" in there, GB.

 

[rockaction]

Stats don't tell the whole story, obviously; although IMO for a fantasy football forum they do hold more weight in assessment/argument than real world football.

19/30 for 233 with 1 TD 0 Int and 11 for 68 on the ground
21/35 for 210 with 1 TD 0 Int and 6 for 58 on the ground with another TD

For such similar stat lines, the discourse around these two QBs after the first week seems..... excessive? histrionic? Did I miss all the posts by people claiming Caleb would be Lamar Jackson week 1? That a few months with a new coach was going to immediately fix problems in his game he's had since college; even before last years coaching flubs? You'd think scorned owners drafted Williams at QB6 not QB16 like his ADP the whole off-season.

I don't know the exact word, but lord, ignoring the numbers and just going by statements online/on tv you'd think that top stat line should be getting fit for his HoF jacket already while the other should be relegated to the arena league in another week or two. This whole thread in particular is bringing out my internal Sancho Panza, with the phrase "tilting at windmills" coming to mind.

Not really. You know I'm pretty reasonable. You're not just talking QB16 in redraft. You're talking to Superflex dynasty owners that took him 1.01 over Daniels and every other player in that draft class. This isn't just a redraft thing. The people that took him 1.01 and read the Dunne article feel totally snowed. I was skeptical of this dude because I'm relatively local to Los Angeles, but all of the family stuff and weird behavior was supposedly vetted by the Bears and now you're getting the downstream effect of it.

Shouldn't be surprising at all.

I don't care to debate the Dunne article because I doubt people will be changing opinions on it. But after reading the entire thing yesterday, not just the free sample; mine is that Dunne didn't have any "factual information". He had the quotes and anecdotes from unnamed sources who were obviously some of the coaches on the staff who got fired for being bad at their jobs. (Apparently minus Matt Eberflus who was reached out to for comment but didn't want to participate; can't refind the source on this one though). The tone, and quite frankly some of the verbage, made it clear the sources had an axe to grind. Which I can kind of understand, as much as I think it's a dirt bag last resort to hopefully maintain future employment in the league. I'm sure they might have felt it was a "fair" response to the stories we got earlier this off season about how inept they were and basically did nothing to help Caleb eg. watching tape on his own. I noticed they didn't directly refute that report, but rather tried to spin it that Caleb Williams is just so dumb it wouldn't have mattered. That he wasn't worth helping. Going as far as directly stating specific learning disabilities he has. Feels like potential malfeasance and potential HIPAA violation but IANAL.

Really what bothered me most was it was an obvious hit piece, put forth by Dunne under the guise of "Hey, I'm just quoting these guys. I'm just asking questions, and these are the answers," seemingly shirking any and all responsibility of himself. Which again, fair enough. I'm still going to judge the f out of him for it. It comes off as the guy at work who's saying "Well... people are saying you're too dumb to do this job. Not me. Just people." There was no balanced reporting, there was 0 effort to refute or even question the validity of the statements from these unnamed sources. There was no attempt by Dunne to deliver any alternate take or theory. Which is within his right as a reporter; but as a reader that's what makes me seriously question not only what was said in that article, but his own motivations. Add in the fact it was dropped just days prior to the start of this new season... I'm just not very open to being convinced otherwise.

That all said; it could all be 100% true. I've done marriage counseling with exes who loathe one another and say the most horrendous things. And a lot of times the information they are giving is spot on. But it also doesn't change the fact it's coming from a place of inherent bias, and with morally questionable motivations. So until I have independent and unbiased factual information that corroborates it; I don't believe it. But even working under the premise the information in that article was true and unbiased; to me it still paints a picture of a wildly inept and unprofessional coaching staff. Dyslexia is not going to make a QB unable to utilize any other pre-snap calls than "ready, set, go". And peewee QBs in Texas are able to be taught more complex presnap calls.

I find it hard not to ask myself what is more likely; that Caleb Willims was able to make it to age 23, forget the largely successful career as QB to this point, but just that he was completely able to bypass two+ decades of teachers and general social interactions completely hiding himself having such a low IQ and unparalleled learning disability that he cannot retain presnap calls that 12 year olds are capable of. Or... that a frustrated coaching staff was either unwilling or incapable of getting him to that point? I'm all about shades of gray and totally willing to say the answer to that question might be a mix of both. But man is it hard to believe it's not a HELL OF A LOT of one more than the other.

And then, this may ruffle some feathers, but IMO it was laced throughout with insinuations of homophobia. Wish people here knew me IRL and would understand how far removed I am from being any kind of person who throws around allegations like that. If anything, I'm often accused of being too insensitive to what most would consider the popularized social issues. I think all the -phobias and -isms are wayyyy over used in society today, watering them down to the point of almost meaninglessness. But going back to the article; numerous word and phrasing choices throughout told a story in the story IMO. "Williams sashayed away" "This glitzy gazelle", etc etc. Words have meaning and obvious choices were made. Dunne is not some new guy on the scene. Even if these were more quotes than his own choices, he knew what he was weaving together. The whole thing felt gross to me.

I honestly was going to avoid having any commentary on the article because it really brought several levels of frustration out of me. But there's my diatribe lol. I don't expect others to agree, and again, don't really wish to debate it. Just felt I couldn't adequately reply without explaining my take on it. Again; maybe some/most/all of what's in there is true. Even right down to what's presented as severe learning disabilities. I just can't accept the opinions of scorned lovers at face value; especially devoid of really any other evidence. Maybe if he was Zach Wilson level of bad QB play it would be easier. Or maybe if he presented in his media interviews with a tone of indignation that they describe. Maybe if their were murmers from HS and college coaches and teammates. But, unless I've missed all those articles/reports, I'm unaware they exist. All I know is he was mediocre as a rookie in a dysfunctional situation with a bunch of coaches most people said were going to suck within hours of being hired. Waiting to see how he's looking in November/December to reassess now that he has what seems like a good coach. And will probably avoid most of the other discourse on him until that time.

Yeah, that was a long answer that sort of isn't the point. You're wondering why people are getting down on the "QB16 in redraft." They're not. They're getting down on a significant asset for their dynasty team who they think has sort of nuked it or has given the guy behind them a great advantage. And they're basing it on what may be a dubious hit piece but that wasn't what your original problem with them was. You gave your sort of specific objection and now you've widened your objection.

Which is fine. I feel very ambivalent about the piece, but something tells me that if it were really untrue his teammates would have said something about it. And none of this would be allowed to fester in any way.

But forget how I feel about the piece. That's not relevant to my point of this current post which is that if you felt that way then I wouldn't have explained to you what the dynasty players' frustration with it all was. You already knew. The more I think about it, you assigned everybody a position of irrationality about the subject when you actually were smuggling in a dissatisfaction with the story and the circus. You ought to have just said that instead of making peoples' arguments into a straw man you could complain about.

Because that's effectively what you did.

Now, I don't care a whole ton. You're not a bad guy. Your argument just wasn't entirely honest and mischaracterized other arguments as irrational. You should have just said you thought the whole thing was garbage and the story was biased and ******** and you didn't like it. That would have been an honest representation of your thoughts.

That's all. Sorry I had to point this out and you're probably not going to care for it—and I like your posts—but this is in effect what you did if your read the progression of your argument. I can't help but shrug about it. It's a touchy subject and touchy issue.

eta* by the way, the last thing I want to be is confrontational about this. I just don't really know how else to answer this other than addressing it. I could be wrong. That's just how I'm taking it.

 

[General Malaise]

Stats don't tell the whole story, obviously; although IMO for a fantasy football forum they do hold more weight in assessment/argument than real world football.

19/30 for 233 with 1 TD 0 Int and 11 for 68 on the ground
21/35 for 210 with 1 TD 0 Int and 6 for 58 on the ground with another TD

For such similar stat lines, the discourse around these two QBs after the first week seems..... excessive? histrionic? Did I miss all the posts by people claiming Caleb would be Lamar Jackson week 1? That a few months with a new coach was going to immediately fix problems in his game he's had since college; even before last years coaching flubs? You'd think scorned owners drafted Williams at QB6 not QB16 like his ADP the whole off-season.

I don't know the exact word, but lord, ignoring the numbers and just going by statements online/on tv you'd think that top stat line should be getting fit for his HoF jacket already while the other should be relegated to the arena league in another week or two. This whole thread in particular is bringing out my internal Sancho Panza, with the phrase "tilting at windmills" coming to mind.

Not really. You know I'm pretty reasonable. You're not just talking QB16 in redraft. You're talking to Superflex dynasty owners that took him 1.01 over Daniels and every other player in that draft class. This isn't just a redraft thing. The people that took him 1.01 and read the Dunne article feel totally snowed. I was skeptical of this dude because I'm relatively local to Los Angeles, but all of the family stuff and weird behavior was supposedly vetted by the Bears and now you're getting the downstream effect of it.

Shouldn't be surprising at all.

That's true. To be fair though Caleb actually had a solid year statistically in 2024. 3,500 yards, 20 TDs, 6 INT, 489 on the ground. And people have been freaking out about it. Jayden and Nix had great rookie seasons, kudos to them but Caleb didn't suck in the stat column and our hobby is based on stats not NFL efficiency.

I am happy to discuss his flaws, and I have at length, but, it is fair to say there has been a ton of Chicken Littling going on from the people who invested in him.

68 sacks in 2024.

If he cuts that number down through improved OL play, faster decision making, getting rid of the ball on time, etc. then yes, we are looking at a good to potentially great fantasy QB.

But man....that is a staggering amount of punishment for a body to absorb. The injury risk is augmented but there is also an erosion of confidence that chased other top talents out of starting roles early; David Carr is a great example of this, though he was about as mobile as me.

I also worry that a failure to reduce the sack rate could lead to a change at QB. How many press conferences have we witnessed where a backup QB made headlines for inking a nice extension? Not too many.

If the hit piece on Caleb is accurate, how long before this coaching regime considers a change? The OL might have some opinions too.

The one sack last night he wasn't even hit, he just ran out of bounds behind the line of scrimmage.

Jason Hargraves was credited with 2 sacks last night.....

Hey, if it's 2 sacks a game, 34 is a 50% reduction from 68. That'll do.

 

[Harjiran]

I'd be happy if the main takeaway from all this is no one ever uses the adjective "generational" to describe a football player, ever again. I realize we live in a world where commonplace daily experiences are now typically described as being "amazing" but the term "generational" has a specific meaning and it doesn't happen before he's taken a snap in the league.

Let's add "iconic, "epic" and "legend" to the list as well.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

I read the free section of the article and wasn't about to drop a penny to continue on. It stunk of bias a writer trying to emphasize his beliefs with unnamed sources. How bold.

But what was the author's motivation for putting in the time and effort to write it and publish it? If I read a short-seller's hit piece on a stock, I know the motivation. What's Dunne's angle here?

My take as a long time subscriber to his content is that his angle is that this is his career, what he's been doing for a long time - he's an old-school long-form sports journalist that loves digging into a good story and producing fantastic content. As for anonymous sources, that's just journalism 101 for me. One of the greatest feats of journalism in our lifetimes, the Woodward/Bernstein Watergate reporting, was based on an anonymous source. In a tiny, insular and nepotistic world like the NFL, its very difficult to get good information from insiders going on the record. I'm familiar with the counter-argument but you're never going to get the real story from NFL staff going on the record. But obviously these guys are not anonymous to him - he sat down with every one of them and had the opportunity to gauge their honesty (or he's just lying through his teeth.) In this case, there's no doubt that some of the coaches and other sources for his article (he had 32 sources) had a bone to pick. Several were openly livid with Williams for throwing the staff under the bus when they all believed it was his attitude and refusal to work that was the problem. Williams claims they didn't teach him how to watch film and I would just say there is some very strong, universal push back on that. No one questions his talent.

I will also say that people who have only read the stuff that was excerpted in snippets online likely don't have a fair understanding of the story he wrote. Its a three part piece - first about Caleb Williams, second about Poles and the Bears draft process and third is about Bears ownership. I started reading part I when it came out and couldn't put it down. Fantastic, shocking stuff. I printed Part I today for my partner and its 35 pages long for just the first part. Its like reading a New Yorker article. Dunne has done numerous long-form investigative stories like this over the past decade or longer, some negative and some positive. He is still hated in Green Bay because of the story he wrote on Rodgers in 2016 and yet every thing he wrote - 100% of it - has been completely vindicated in the years since then. He's done fantastic pieces on McDermott in Buffalo and the Joneses in Dallas in the past year. He did a two-parter on Romeo Doubs last year that was fantastic. He did a three part piece on Dolphins tight end Julian Hill earlier this summer that is gut-wrenching, shocking. He also did a much shorter piece on Caleb Williams earlier this year that was very good and very positive - an interview with Williams long time personal QB coach.

There's no question journalists in today's media world have to produce eye-popping content to survive and I don't doubt that influences Dunne's writing. He's reporting stuff on faith, and some of it could be lies or at least exaggerations. But for anyone interested in this player or the Bears I think you have to read this. The dyslexia stuff is questionable in my opinion because its not been confirmed anywhere else. But there are some very interesting quotes on that and its much more about the Bears failure than Williams. Its not about Williams not being smart or not able to succeed, more that the coaches didn't understand how to coach him because they didn't understand the way he processes written information. The story they tell is that Poles knew about this but didn't tell the coaches. That seems highly improbable to me but also explains some of what we've seen with this player.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

I'd be happy if the main takeaway from all this is no one ever uses the adjective "generational" to describe a football player, ever again. I realize we live in a world where commonplace daily experiences are now typically described as being "amazing" but the term "generational" has a specific meaning and it doesn't happen before he's taken a snap in the league.

I thought it was fair with Saquon but it seems like once that actually seemed true that we then decided to apply it to everybody and everything. I think Saquon's 2,000 yards and his reverse aerial over that dude last year sort of justified all of that in retrospect.

Maybe the term isn't as well-defined as I thought. For me, you can't say Barkley is 'Generational' when we were alive to see Payton, Sanders and Smith. You can argue about who is best, but none of them are unicorns so long as the others exist.

 

[renesauz]

Stats don't tell the whole story, obviously; although IMO for a fantasy football forum they do hold more weight in assessment/argument than real world football.

19/30 for 233 with 1 TD 0 Int and 11 for 68 on the ground
21/35 for 210 with 1 TD 0 Int and 6 for 58 on the ground with another TD

For such similar stat lines, the discourse around these two QBs after the first week seems..... excessive? histrionic? Did I miss all the posts by people claiming Caleb would be Lamar Jackson week 1? That a few months with a new coach was going to immediately fix problems in his game he's had since college; even before last years coaching flubs? You'd think scorned owners drafted Williams at QB6 not QB16 like his ADP the whole off-season.

I don't know the exact word, but lord, ignoring the numbers and just going by statements online/on tv you'd think that top stat line should be getting fit for his HoF jacket already while the other should be relegated to the arena league in another week or two. This whole thread in particular is bringing out my internal Sancho Panza, with the phrase "tilting at windmills" coming to mind.

Were you watching the same game? He missed wide open throw after wide open throw

 

[InDitkaWeTrust]

Yeah, that was a long answer that sort of isn't the point. You're wondering why people are getting down on the "QB16 in redraft." They're not. They're getting down on a significant asset for their dynasty team who they think has sort of nuked it or has given the guy behind them a great advantage. And they're basing it on what may be a dubious hit piece but that wasn't what your original problem with them was. You gave your sort of specific objection and now you've widened your objection.

Which is fine. I feel very ambivalent about the piece, but something tells me that if it were really untrue his teammates would have said something about it. And none of this would be allowed to fester in any way.

But forget how I feel about the piece. That's not relevant to my point of this current post which is that if you felt that way then I wouldn't have explained to you what the dynasty players' frustration with it all was. You already knew. The more I think about it, you assigned everybody a position of irrationality about the subject when you actually were smuggling in a dissatisfaction with the story and the circus. You ought to have just said that instead of making peoples' arguments into a straw man you could complain about.

Because that's effectively what you did.

Now, I don't care a whole ton. You're not a bad guy. Your argument just wasn't entirely honest and mischaracterized other arguments as irrational. You should have just said you thought the whole thing was garbage and the story was biased and ******** and you didn't like it. That would have been an honest representation of your thoughts.

That's all. Sorry I had to point this out and you're probably not going to care for it—and I like your posts—but this is in effect what you did if your read the progression of your argument. I can't help but shrug about it. It's a touchy subject and touchy issue.

eta* by the way, the last thing I want to be is confrontational about this. I just don't really know how else to answer this other than addressing it. I could be wrong. That's just how I'm taking it.

Interesting take. If we're talking about JUST the outcome of 1.01 picks, what is your threshold for frustration? Are fantasy GMs this frustrated about Trevor Lawrence, Justin FIelds/Trey Lance/Zach Wilson from the 2021 draft? Has Breece Hall produced up to a 1.01 level? He certainly had high hopes...maybe not GENERATIONAL hopes. The consternation over Williams has been incredibly overblown vs his 'lack of production'. As @pinkstapler mentioned, Williams had a historically solid 2024 season for a rookie NFL QB. That season was not without it's flaws both by Caleb and by the staff.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Stats don't tell the whole story, obviously; although IMO for a fantasy football forum they do hold more weight in assessment/argument than real world football.

19/30 for 233 with 1 TD 0 Int and 11 for 68 on the ground
21/35 for 210 with 1 TD 0 Int and 6 for 58 on the ground with another TD

For such similar stat lines, the discourse around these two QBs after the first week seems..... excessive? histrionic? Did I miss all the posts by people claiming Caleb would be Lamar Jackson week 1? That a few months with a new coach was going to immediately fix problems in his game he's had since college; even before last years coaching flubs? You'd think scorned owners drafted Williams at QB6 not QB16 like his ADP the whole off-season.

I don't know the exact word, but lord, ignoring the numbers and just going by statements online/on tv you'd think that top stat line should be getting fit for his HoF jacket already while the other should be relegated to the arena league in another week or two. This whole thread in particular is bringing out my internal Sancho Panza, with the phrase "tilting at windmills" coming to mind.

Were you watching the same game? He missed wide open throw after wide open throw

Agreed. Stats can be misleading, and I know what my eyes saw. Did Caleb make some great plays and great throws? Yes. Did he struggle with a lot of pre-snap stuff and make some horrible throws? Yes. The miss on 4th down in the first half was bad, but to go back and watch the miss to Moore on their drive when it was 27-17 was horrific. That should have been an easy pitch and catch for a TD, and Caleb didn't barely miss him; he missed him by a mile. That is a throw a quality NFL QBs cannot miss. While different players, Caleb is like Fields was in Chicago where they are great YouTube QBs, meaning their highlights look great in a 4-minute video, but the inconsistency stands out when watching the full games.

 

[Chaka]

Stats don't tell the whole story, obviously; although IMO for a fantasy football forum they do hold more weight in assessment/argument than real world football.

19/30 for 233 with 1 TD 0 Int and 11 for 68 on the ground
21/35 for 210 with 1 TD 0 Int and 6 for 58 on the ground with another TD

For such similar stat lines, the discourse around these two QBs after the first week seems..... excessive? histrionic? Did I miss all the posts by people claiming Caleb would be Lamar Jackson week 1? That a few months with a new coach was going to immediately fix problems in his game he's had since college; even before last years coaching flubs? You'd think scorned owners drafted Williams at QB6 not QB16 like his ADP the whole off-season.

I don't know the exact word, but lord, ignoring the numbers and just going by statements online/on tv you'd think that top stat line should be getting fit for his HoF jacket already while the other should be relegated to the arena league in another week or two. This whole thread in particular is bringing out my internal Sancho Panza, with the phrase "tilting at windmills" coming to mind.

Not really. You know I'm pretty reasonable. You're not just talking QB16 in redraft. You're talking to Superflex dynasty owners that took him 1.01 over Daniels and every other player in that draft class. This isn't just a redraft thing. The people that took him 1.01 and read the Dunne article feel totally snowed. I was skeptical of this dude because I'm relatively local to Los Angeles, but all of the family stuff and weird behavior was supposedly vetted by the Bears and now you're getting the downstream effect of it.

Shouldn't be surprising at all.

That's true. To be fair though Caleb actually had a solid year statistically in 2024. 3,500 yards, 20 TDs, 6 INT, 489 on the ground. And people have been freaking out about it. Jayden and Nix had great rookie seasons, kudos to them but Caleb didn't suck in the stat column and our hobby is based on stats not NFL efficiency.

I am happy to discuss his flaws, and I have at length, but, it is fair to say there has been a ton of Chicken Littling going on from the people who invested in him.

68 sacks in 2024.

If he cuts that number down through improved OL play, faster decision making, getting rid of the ball on time, etc. then yes, we are looking at a good to potentially great fantasy QB.

But man....that is a staggering amount of punishment for a body to absorb. The injury risk is augmented but there is also an erosion of confidence that chased other top talents out of starting roles early; David Carr is a great example of this, though he was about as mobile as me.

I also worry that a failure to reduce the sack rate could lead to a change at QB. How many press conferences have we witnessed where a backup QB made headlines for inking a nice extension? Not too many.

If the hit piece on Caleb is accurate, how long before this coaching regime considers a change? The OL might have some opinions too.

Does your league penalize the QB for sacks. I know some do, but I don't think it's the norm.

 

[Football Jones]

I read the free section of the article and wasn't about to drop a penny to continue on. It stunk of bias a writer trying to emphasize his beliefs with unnamed sources. How bold.

But what was the author's motivation for putting in the time and effort to write it and publish it? If I read a short-seller's hit piece on a stock, I know the motivation. What's Dunne's angle here?

My take as a long time subscriber to his content is that his angle is that this is his career, what he's been doing for a long time - he's an old-school long-form sports journalist that loves digging into a good story and producing fantastic content. As for anonymous sources, that's just journalism 101 for me. One of the greatest feats of journalism in our lifetimes, the Woodward/Bernstein Watergate reporting, was based on an anonymous source. In a tiny, insular and nepotistic world like the NFL, its very difficult to get good information from insiders going on the record. I'm familiar with the counter-argument but you're never going to get the real story from NFL staff going on the record. But obviously these guys are not anonymous to him - he sat down with every one of them and had the opportunity to gauge their honesty (or he's just lying through his teeth.) In this case, there's no doubt that some of the coaches and other sources for his article (he had 32 sources) had a bone to pick. Several were openly livid with Williams for throwing the staff under the bus when they all believed it was his attitude and refusal to work that was the problem. Williams claims they didn't teach him how to watch film and I would just say there is some very strong, universal push back on that. No one questions his talent.

I will also say that people who have only read the stuff that was excerpted in snippets online likely don't have a fair understanding of the story he wrote. Its a three part piece - first about Caleb Williams, second about Poles and the Bears draft process and third is about Bears ownership. I started reading part I when it came out and couldn't put it down. Fantastic, shocking stuff. I printed Part I today for my partner and its 35 pages long for just the first part. Its like reading a New Yorker article. Dunne has done numerous long-form investigative stories like this over the past decade or longer, some negative and some positive. He is still hated in Green Bay because of the story he wrote on Rodgers in 2016 and yet every thing he wrote - 100% of it - has been completely vindicated in the years since then. He's done fantastic pieces on McDermott in Buffalo and the Joneses in Dallas in the past year. He did a two-parter on Romeo Doubs last year that was fantastic. He did a three part piece on Dolphins tight end Julian Hill earlier this summer that is gut-wrenching, shocking. He also did a much shorter piece on Caleb Williams earlier this year that was very good and very positive - an interview with Williams long time personal QB coach.

There's no question journalists in today's media world have to produce eye-popping content to survive and I don't doubt that influences Dunne's writing. He's reporting stuff on faith, and some of it could be lies or at least exaggerations. But for anyone interested in this player or the Bears I think you have to read this. The dyslexia stuff is questionable in my opinion because its not been confirmed anywhere else. But there are some very interesting quotes on that and its much more about the Bears failure than Williams. Its not about Williams not being smart or not able to succeed, more that the coaches didn't understand how to coach him because they didn't understand the way he processes written information. The story they tell is that Poles knew about this but didn't tell the coaches. That seems highly improbable to me but also explains some of what we've seen with this player.

Where can I find the article on Caleb and some of Dunne's other work?

 

[CletiusMaximus]

I read the free section of the article and wasn't about to drop a penny to continue on. It stunk of bias a writer trying to emphasize his beliefs with unnamed sources. How bold.

But what was the author's motivation for putting in the time and effort to write it and publish it? If I read a short-seller's hit piece on a stock, I know the motivation. What's Dunne's angle here?

My take as a long time subscriber to his content is that his angle is that this is his career, what he's been doing for a long time - he's an old-school long-form sports journalist that loves digging into a good story and producing fantastic content. As for anonymous sources, that's just journalism 101 for me. One of the greatest feats of journalism in our lifetimes, the Woodward/Bernstein Watergate reporting, was based on an anonymous source. In a tiny, insular and nepotistic world like the NFL, its very difficult to get good information from insiders going on the record. I'm familiar with the counter-argument but you're never going to get the real story from NFL staff going on the record. But obviously these guys are not anonymous to him - he sat down with every one of them and had the opportunity to gauge their honesty (or he's just lying through his teeth.) In this case, there's no doubt that some of the coaches and other sources for his article (he had 32 sources) had a bone to pick. Several were openly livid with Williams for throwing the staff under the bus when they all believed it was his attitude and refusal to work that was the problem. Williams claims they didn't teach him how to watch film and I would just say there is some very strong, universal push back on that. No one questions his talent.

I will also say that people who have only read the stuff that was excerpted in snippets online likely don't have a fair understanding of the story he wrote. Its a three part piece - first about Caleb Williams, second about Poles and the Bears draft process and third is about Bears ownership. I started reading part I when it came out and couldn't put it down. Fantastic, shocking stuff. I printed Part I today for my partner and its 35 pages long for just the first part. Its like reading a New Yorker article. Dunne has done numerous long-form investigative stories like this over the past decade or longer, some negative and some positive. He is still hated in Green Bay because of the story he wrote on Rodgers in 2016 and yet every thing he wrote - 100% of it - has been completely vindicated in the years since then. He's done fantastic pieces on McDermott in Buffalo and the Joneses in Dallas in the past year. He did a two-parter on Romeo Doubs last year that was fantastic. He did a three part piece on Dolphins tight end Julian Hill earlier this summer that is gut-wrenching, shocking. He also did a much shorter piece on Caleb Williams earlier this year that was very good and very positive - an interview with Williams long time personal QB coach.

There's no question journalists in today's media world have to produce eye-popping content to survive and I don't doubt that influences Dunne's writing. He's reporting stuff on faith, and some of it could be lies or at least exaggerations. But for anyone interested in this player or the Bears I think you have to read this. The dyslexia stuff is questionable in my opinion because its not been confirmed anywhere else. But there are some very interesting quotes on that and its much more about the Bears failure than Williams. Its not about Williams not being smart or not able to succeed, more that the coaches didn't understand how to coach him because they didn't understand the way he processes written information. The story they tell is that Poles knew about this but didn't tell the coaches. That seems highly improbable to me but also explains some of what we've seen with this player.

Where can I find the article on Caleb and some of Dunne's other work?

Go Long | Tyler Dunne | Substack

NFL longform journalism. Humanizing profiles, penetrating deep dives, columns and podcasts that capture the spirit of the sport. Click to read Go Long, by Tyler Dunne, a Substack publication with tens of thousands of subscribers.

www.golongtd.com

 

[Chaka]

Anyone find video of Caleb using his own cadence last year? It didn't sound like it last night but, I admit I wasn't really paying attention.

 

[rockaction]

I'd be happy if the main takeaway from all this is no one ever uses the adjective "generational" to describe a football player, ever again. I realize we live in a world where commonplace daily experiences are now typically described as being "amazing" but the term "generational" has a specific meaning and it doesn't happen before he's taken a snap in the league.

I thought it was fair with Saquon but it seems like once that actually seemed true that we then decided to apply it to everybody and everything. I think Saquon's 2,000 yards and his reverse aerial over that dude last year sort of justified all of that in retrospect.

Maybe the term isn't as well-defined as I thought. For me, you can't say Barkley is 'Generational' when we were alive to see Payton, Sanders and Smith. You can argue about who is best, but none of them are unicorns so long as the others exist.

Well, Barkley is a Millennial. Payton and Sanders are different generations themselves. Emmitt and Barry are the same generation. Just use the standard generation dates. Your example is well-intentioned and I agree with its sentiment but Barkley truly is generational, IMO.

I wasn't even looking to argue, really. I was just sort of admiring Barkley, but he actually does fit the descriptor. Walter Payton is his generation's talent also. Unless we're counting OJ. But Barry and Emmitt are definitely of the same generation. I'd still argue it's Barry because he was twice the runner Emmitt was, IMO.

But yeah, simple dates and general consensus suffices. Sanders is Gen X. Barkley is a Millennial. Payton is something different; I'd have to look it up.