Darryl Talley
Footballguy
There's a reason why I drafted him this season and tonight (and this postseason for that matter) is why.Too bad my team finished dead last though.
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QB Joe Flacco, IND (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter DenverBroncos
- Start date
Phenix
Footballguy
Ok, cant really argue with the ratio, but what I can argue is why does he not play this way all the time?Did Dilfer not suck too? Sometimes QBs just have to manage the game. Let me guess it was Flacco who kept that Pats Offense to 13 points? lolFlacco sucks something awful, lucky run in the playoffs does not change that.
The Comedian
Footballguy
Watch football. Seriously. And I'm a Patriots fan.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
QBs do get better you know.
Run It Up
Footballguy
Yes they usually do, Flacco is on the other list though.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
"No NFL quarterback — not Brady, not Manning — has more than Flacco's 62 victories, including the postseason, since the start of the 2008 season. No NFL quarterback has more than his six postseason wins on the road. And no other quarterback has a postseason victory in each of his first five seasons during the Super Bowl era."
Warhogs
Footballguy
I was referring to him not getting much fantasy love because he does not put up the statistics. You are touching on my point. He has shown the ability to pass the ball well but plays on a team that has typically won by running and playing great defense. Drew Brees was good but not great statistically in San Diego and blew up in New Orleans. Flacco could maybe do something like that in the right offense but he just may never be given the opportunity.
Run It Up
Footballguy
And much like with everything else, it can and is qualified.Year in, year out he is the definition of mediocre. He has made no quantifiable improvements, in fact he played like absolute #### last year and in streaks just as bad this year.
He is very much being elevated by his teammates. He is a more fortunate Mark Sanchez/Alex Smith.
smackdaddies
Footballguy
Good QB win. Great QB win consistently. While in FF wise Flacco is not a starter, in the real world, Joe is near great. If Evans caught that pass (which was a great pass) and Balto made the super bowl last year, this would be two years in a row.Flacco was good enough for his team to make the Super Bowl two years in a row. Based on his success, I would say Flacco has elevated the Ravens.I am not saying that he is Bart Starr, but they have a lot of similarities.
RBM
Footballguy
Played the position as good as any qb in the league could play it in that 2nd half yesterday. And this was in as hostile an environment as it gets in the biggest game of the year/his life. He was flawless and unflappable. Took the game over and led his team to the biggest stage. If you're criticizing him today, there is no argument worth having with you. You just don't like the guy or don't understand big time football. Going to knock him for not putting up video game stats in games in Oct vs the Titans and Raider types, stop watching after week 17.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
I give you facts, you give us opinions.
Run It Up
Footballguy
Elevated how exactly, what has Flacco done in those wins that gives you that opinion?
Code:
Year Age Tm Pos No. G GS QBrec Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD TD% Int Int% Lng Y/A AY/A Y/C Y/G Rate QBR Sk Yds NY/A ANY/A Sk% 4QC GWD AV2008 23 BAL QB 5 16 16 11-5-0 257 428 60.0 2971 14 3.3 12 2.8 70 6.9 6.3 11.6 185.7 80.3 43.23 32 276 5.86 5.29 7.0 1 2 112009 24 BAL QB 5 16 16 9-7-0 315 499 63.1 3613 21 4.2 12 2.4 72 7.2 7.0 11.5 225.8 88.9 55.03 36 218 6.35 6.12 6.7 1 2 132010 25 BAL QB 5 16 16 12-4-0 306 489 62.6 3622 25 5.1 10 2.0 67 7.4 7.5 11.8 226.4 93.6 60.38 40 294 6.29 6.39 7.6 2 4 122011 26 BAL QB 5 16 16 12-4-0 312 542 57.6 3610 20 3.7 12 2.2 74 6.7 6.4 11.6 225.6 80.9 59.69 31 203 5.95 5.70 5.4 2 3 122012 27 BAL QB 5 16 16 10-6-0 317 531 59.7 3817 22 4.1 10 1.9 61 7.2 7.2 12.0 238.6 87.7 46.82 35 227 6.34 6.33 6.2 4 4 13Career 80 80 54-26-0 1507 2489 60.5 17633 102 4.1 56 2.2 74 7.1 6.9 11.7 220.4 86.3 174 1218 6.16 5.98 6.5 10 15 61
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Phenix
Footballguy
Do you want me to quote other stats that can disqualify that? Like wins is a team thing, you know, a pretty good defense on the other side of the ball helps. Like the fact that his attempts have gone up and TDs and yards have not in comparison. Is that improvement? He has never thrown for over 25 TDs and 3820 yards in a season, in a passing league, so to compare him to elite is just comical. Fact is, you know based of stats, that he has regressed. If not for his defense Flacco is just average, as he has shown. Also, only 6 multi TD games this past year sure means your pretty good too with only 31 out of 80 games for his carrer. Lets compare that to elites like Brees who has 37 out of his last 48 games with 13 this year alone.Hows that for stats and facts?I give you facts, you give us opinions.
ETA: People have become prisoners of the moment and like the flavor of the kool-aid. I'm predicting a Ravens win, but not because of Flacco.
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matttyl
Footballguy
Before I get blasted for posting this, I know it's not a big sample size to go on. The scoring system in my dynasty league is fairly standard (1 point for 25 passing yards, 6 points for passing TDs), but we do give small bonuses for TDs over 20 yards, over 40 yards, and for 300+ yard games, and for games with 20 or 30 completed passes.Since getting a new OC, Flacco has had (full) games of 23, 36, 30, 39, and 24 fantasy points. That's an average of 30.4, which would have been the #2 overall QB this season, less than half a point off of #1 (Brees).PS - the last 4 seasons in my league Flacco has finished the season as the #12, #12, #12, and #13 overall QB. It won't take much improvement for him to be a top 10 fantasy QB.
matttyl
Footballguy
He's also (since his 2nd year) not throw for under 3,610 yards or 20 TDs. If you look season to season he's been the most consistent QB in the league. You know you're getting 3,600-3,850 yards and 20-25 TDs with 10-12 INTs on 500-540 attempts and 305-320 completions.Now, what's been the same over those 4 years? Cam Cameron, and a very good defense that has included Ray Lewis and Ed Reed. Who won't be there next year? Cam Cameron, Ray Lewis, and likely Ed Reed....
Phenix
Footballguy
Since his second year? Lets curve the stats to your favor, blah blah blah.You have lost your mind. He has been consistently average, you act like those numbers are good by today's standards.
20-25 Tds? That's a pretty big difference, as in 20% of his whole total.
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smackdaddies
Footballguy
In the end, it's all scoreboard. Flacco led teams win. Statistically speaking, no team since 2008 has the wins that the Ravens have had. Once is luck, two is happenstance, three is contact with the enemy. Complaints about Flacco remind of what Buddy Ryan said about Chris Carter - "all he does is catch touchdowns". Well, yes, all Flacco does is win. Every freaking year. And the argument "its the system" is stupid. All QB play in a system. Good QB win in the system they are in.
smackdaddies
Footballguy
Anyone know which QB has the highest QB rating this post season? Since we are all about the statistics.
Phenix
Footballguy
I'm sorry, all he does is win? Isn't this his first SB? He hasn't won anything yet. Before yesterday he has never won the big game he needed to.
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matttyl
Footballguy
Yes since his 2nd year, you know, like not including his first year when he's still learning how to be in the NFL. This still gives us a 4 year period to look at, which is longer than about half the starting QBs in the NFL. I'm also not saying his numbers have been great, but given the number of wins and his postseason successes, they haven't needed to be. Please show me another QB who's TD amounts over the last 4 years have only had a 23% swing from a high to a low (low of 21, high of 26). How about one who's passing yardage amount over the past 4 years has only had a 5% swing, or only a 3% swing in completed passes.
His numbers haven't been amazing or spectacular or anything like that, but they have been AMAZINGLY consistent and if his past few games under a new OC are any indication, are likely to improve.
smackdaddies
Footballguy
Ignoring last year where he was good enough to get to the SB, minus a drop by Lee Evens, which was a freaking perfect pass.
matttyl
Footballguy
Well then I guess Matt Ryan, Tony Romo, RG3, Luck, Schaub, Cam Newton and Stafford are all horrible as well. Man, Mario was a horrible QB as well! Fouts and Moon weren't any good either.
Warhogs
Footballguy
Again, I am not sure Flacco will ever be anything more than what he is but here are Tom Brady's first 7 seasons.'00 1-3 33.3% 6yds 0td 0int'01 264-413 63.9% 2843yds 18td 12int'02 373-601 62.1% 3764yds 28td 14int'03 317-527 60.2% 3620yds 23td 12int'04 288-474 60.8% 3692yds 28td 14int'05 334-530 63.0% 4110yds 26td 14int'06 319-516 61.8% 3529yds 24td 12intMy point being that while Flacco has been consistently good but not elite I don't think anyone can make a call with any certainty on what Flacco can be. I remember when Brady was thought of as very consistent but not elite.
Koya
Footballguy
Not sure why people refuse to see the obvious as a player evolves and grows.The guy has won a game in FIVE STRAIGHT playoffs... His first five ears in the league! He did everything he could including a great last second drive last year , throwing a perfect pass to win th game against these same vaunted Parriots, but Lee Evans choked and dropped the ball. This year he has been exceptionally consistent leading his team , on the road, to the super bowl.Seriously, what else do you want?As a Giants and Ravens fans, I saw this with Eli. The elevation of his play during big games. Some, at times maddening , inconsistency. Great deep ball and big play ability , and therefore not the efficiency you see in the typical NFL short to intermediate passing game. And the lack of recognition even when the guy gets it done over and over.At this point, what more could you ask for from a QB?I guess it's better to not gain the respect of people who seem not to watch and/or understand the game while racking up playoff victories than be some popular fan boy draw who doesn't get his team to the promised land.
matttyl
Footballguy
Good, but not great is what I recall. Look how that turned out. I'm honestly not sure if we're talking "NFL good" or "fantasy good", which can be too different things. He's been good enough for his team to have the success they've had in the regular and post seasons. In pure wins over these last few years, no one has done what he has, in the regular or in the post season. Had he throw for 1,000 more yards and 10 more TDs each year but his team never made the post season, would that have made him "better"? Fantasy wise yes, but NFL wise I don't think so. He's done what he's been asked to do, and done so very well I believe.
The_Man
Footballguy
Flacco's last 4 games, including a most-win vs. the Giants and then the playoffs:76 of 129 for 1162 yards, 10 TDs and 0 INTsThis postseason alone: 51 of 93 for 853 yards, 8 TDs, 0 INTs, 114.7 QB rating.After the Colts game, people were talking about how Indy's D was so bad and that Denver's CBs would pick off the jump balls that turned into Raven TDs. Then he made Champ Bailey look silly. Heading into NE, high winds and everyone saying that Flacco would be severely limited because he wouldn't be able to throw the deep ball.So he out-Bradyed Brady, shredding the middle of the field with pinpoint short throws to Boldin and Pitta.He's not one of the top 5 QBs in the NFL. He is one of the Top 15 and right now is an incredible hot streak.If you insist on saying he is mediocre, it says much more about you and your lack of football acumen than it says about Flacco.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
lolI also liked the way he covered himself in case Flacco wins.
smackdaddies
Footballguy
I might put him a little higher than 15, but I think your points are all correct.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
It's still mind-numbing how crappy he can look out of nowhere in certain games, but you cannot argue with what he has done this postseason.
Run It Up
Footballguy
Such riveting discussion, like every other flacco thread ever made."He really isn't very good""He wins games""Hes on a team that wins games and he is consistently middle of the road""He wins lots of games"Note the complete lack of actual discussion. Maybe instead of avoiding the entire argument the Flacco camp can just admit that their definition of good is actually dumb. Win-win.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
His recognition of the coverages and his delivery/placement on the three TD passes were as good as anything he's ever done.Putting a label on Flacco seems to be a hot topic on this board. Maybe that's how you know when a guy has become a serious factor in this here NFL.
Mario Kart
Footballguy
Something I have not seen mentioned in this thread is the fact that Baltimore has Ray Rice and one hell of a defense. First, Rice takes away yards and TD's from Flacco's numbers. That is fine and all but if people doubt Flacco because he has not had 30 TD's or 4,500 yards, part of that is due to how effective Rice has been. Other QB's with 4,500/30 do not get the production from the RB position. Second, the defense tends to keep scores low or get turnovers which shorten the field. Or, TD scores which limit Flacco. Either way, Flacco does what he needs to do and he is playing darn well.I am sure the above people always take into account before slighting Flacco though. I am sure of it.
matttyl
Footballguy
So what's your definition of good? I guess it has nothing to do with winning games, especially playoff games against other good/great teams.
dickey moe
Fingerpicker
If the dude had good looks and an outgoing personality people would be calling him a stud.
Run It Up
Footballguy
Winning games is important, but it is in no way a factor in measuring an individuals skill (ie. Mark Sanchez.)Smart, athletic or talented. Consistent good production. Really only need two to be good, Flacco has one if you count averaging 3500/20/11 as good, im not sure if its above average or not but its certainly not terrible. He had excuses before last year when he was given more responsibility.
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bryhamm
Footballguy
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
There's a lot of good discussion in the other thread where you obsess over Flacco.It's got to suck that such a mediocre QB just sent your team off to the golf course.
smackdaddies
Footballguy
matttyl
Footballguy
Wait, did I miss something? How many games did Mark Sanchez win this year?And how can he average 3,500 and 20 when he's surpassed both of those marks for each of the last 4 years? He's averaged slightly better at 3,666 yards and 23.25 TDs a season over the past 4.His talent has shown on the field with all his post season wins, and he was smart enough not to sign a deal at the start of this season (which yes, could have blown up in his face), but he's sure going to get more money now.
This is the list of QBs with 8 play-off wins:Tom BradyJoe MontanaTerry BradshawJohn ElwayBrett FavreTroy AikmanRoger StaubachBen RoethlisbergerBart StarKurt WarnerDonovan McNabbJim KellyPeyton ManningJim PlunkettEli ManningJoe FlaccoSteve YoungDan MarinoYou just don't "luck" into this list. There is not a bad QB on the list - and most are HOF QBs.
dickey moe
Fingerpicker
Kinda what I meant. Kinda.
Warrior
Footballguy
What about Joe Flacco is above average? He's nowhere near elite in any way, physically or statistically. The only thing he has going for him is a good playoff record, which is directly attributable to having a stud RB to carry the load and a sick defense every season to bail him out.I wasn't fishing...he's nothing special. He's just along for the ride and he'll end up with a contract that is WAY too high very soon.
Warrior
Footballguy
It has nothing to do with luck. It's because of the defense and that's painfully obvious. Do you think Rex Grossman is a stud QB for making it to a Superbowl?
matttyl
Footballguy
Damn, that's a pretty good list to be on! With one more win, Flacco will surpass Marion, Young, Eli (currently), and Plunkett. One more after that and he surpasses Peyton (currently), Kelly, McNabb, Warner and Starr....and put him in the top 9 all-time.
Warrior
Footballguy
You think a stud RB and stud defense HURT Joe Flacco's credibility? 
They're the only reason he has any credibility at all. He's mediocre at best as the QB of the Jets or the Bills or any other team without elite playmakers making him look better than he is.
matttyl
Footballguy
Ray Rice's rushing yardage amounts in the playoffs:1/06/13 - 68
1/12/13 (double overtime game) - 131
1/20/13 - 48
1/15/12 - 60
1/22/12 - 67
1/9/11 - 57
1/15/11 - 32
1/10/10 - 159 (which included the famous 83 yard TD, aside from that had 76 yards rushing)
1/16/10 - 67
*2009 post season had all of 1 carry total in 3 games*
Not sure it was the "stud RB" winning all those post season games.
Run It Up
Footballguy
Later than I anticipated, figured you would have been the first response the second I posted in this thread. Also, where exactly is the good discussion in that thread? I tried to start an actual discussion because I was perplexed by how incredibly mediocre Flacco is and much like this thread it is filled with nothing but hot air. I let that thread die for a reason there was no actual discussion and boiled down to pretty much exactly what I said above.
Must have watched a completely different game than me.
I'm sorry - I missed Grossman on the list - where is he?Flacco doesn't make the list because of one good year. He has been good enough to reach the play-offs 5 consecutive years, reach the AFC title game 3 times in that span, and the Super Bowl once - just a dropped pass from making it twice.To survive as a starter for 5 years, and to have the success he, and the Ravens, have enjoyed, you can't be a "journeyman" QB who is just along for the ride. It just does not happen.
