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QB Kirk Cousins, ATL (2 Viewers)

We won't know what McCloughan thinks until he does it. It's crazy to think otherwise this early on, the real posturing hasn't even begun yet. 

Gruden also has a lot of input and pull with McCloughan, and he is going to stand on the table and stomp up and down for Cousins. 

The other thing to remember is that Scot McCloughan really isn't a money man. The accounting and beaurocratic stuff helped drive him to drink in SF, he hates that stuff and I'm sure that's part of why he loves having Bruce Allen around even though fans can't fathom his usefulness. Not to mention Eric Schaeffer. 

Basically Scot is a super scout who has the title of GM. He has his own roster building philosophies but he's going to take a TON of input from Gruden and Allen and you know both are going to be on the side of locking down Cousins--Gruden because he likes him and having a QB means he has a higher chance of winning and getting an extension, and Allen for similar reasons and because business-wise, it's better to have a Franchise QB and win some games even if he's overpaid.

 
creepythinman said:
Flawed math. It should be "with an extra $22-24 million, are you upgrading the defense enough to compensate for the drop off in QB from Cousins to McCoy." That's not even to mention the draft picks Cousins might net.

Scot McCloughan seems to think the answer is yes and I'll ride with him. Plus Cooley's reports that the players in the locker room would run through a wall for Colt McCoy.
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So you are saying you would not spend $1 on a QB but you would spend the entire savings on the defense?  OK, point taken the if you went down from 24 you could go to 15 M, or 18 M...but eventually if you want a QB that will win you anything, you are going to have to pay him more than vet minimum.  So the basic point of my post is still the same -- what can you get with the "incremental savings" that is worth the drop off.

If my math is flawed in that they save more than $2M, your math is also flawed in that they don't save $24M.  The truth is it's a number in between.  And the more nuanced truth is ultimately you are going to at least come closer to the Osweiller range at least, if you ultimately want a QB to help you win.  That was the range that folks were paying for Bradford, Osweiller and other "serviceable" guys.

So I'm sticking with the basic point, even though yes, you have to work with the numbers to define the actual incremental cost.  Let's say that incremental cost is $6M vs. $2M...it's still worth it to sign Cousins.

As for your statement on Scot McCloughan, we'll see if your prediction is right.  I've seen some general comments that you have to look at the whole team and not just one player...heck, even Cousins has acknowledged that maintaining overall team strength is a factor in contract negotiations.  Such a bland statement doesn't necessarily put the two at odds...it may be Cousins gets his number but the thing is structured in a cap friendly manner..  But I've seen nothing so concrete as what you suggest, that he's ready to ride with McCoy over Cousins.  IMO, that's highly, highly speculative.

 
MikeApf said:
So you are saying you would not spend $1 on a QB but you would spend the entire savings on the defense?  OK, point taken the if you went down from 24 you could go to 15 M, or 18 M...but eventually if you want a QB that will win you anything, you are going to have to pay him more than vet minimum.  So the basic point of my post is still the same -- what can you get with the "incremental savings" that is worth the drop off.

If my math is flawed in that they save more than $2M, your math is also flawed in that they don't save $24M.  The truth is it's a number in between.  And the more nuanced truth is ultimately you are going to at least come closer to the Osweiller range at least, if you ultimately want a QB to help you win.  That was the range that folks were paying for Bradford, Osweiller and other "serviceable" guys.

So I'm sticking with the basic point, even though yes, you have to work with the numbers to define the actual incremental cost.  Let's say that incremental cost is $6M vs. $2M...it's still worth it to sign Cousins.

As for your statement on Scot McCloughan, we'll see if your prediction is right.  I've seen some general comments that you have to look at the whole team and not just one player...heck, even Cousins has acknowledged that maintaining overall team strength is a factor in contract negotiations.  Such a bland statement doesn't necessarily put the two at odds...it may be Cousins gets his number but the thing is structured in a cap friendly manner..  But I've seen nothing so concrete as what you suggest, that he's ready to ride with McCoy over Cousins.  IMO, that's highly, highly speculative.
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To anticipate the next logical argument...yes, I know that Colt McCoy currently makes about $3M a year, so initially more $$ would be freed up.  But, McCoy is only under contract through 2018, after which he becomes a free agent.  So let's do a thought experiment.  Let's say Colt McCoy plays lights out...as good or better than Kirk Cousins.  Then, you have to face the prospect of paying him at the end of his contract or watching him walk.  Unless your strategy is just to keep paying backup QBs to take over, only to release them as soon as their cheap contract runs out (obviously stupid strategy), then EVENTUALLY you are going to have to pay someone who is successful.  You cannot even lock up all that money in defensive contracts now because you would have to save to potentially give McCoy a sizeable raise in 2019.  And, if you are banking on Colt just signing a very low contract "just because" that is niave.  So to my way of thinking whether it's NOW or whether it's LATER, you still have to plan to pay a QB the going rate.  Russell Wilson was cheap for a while...then he got paid, etc. etc. etc.  So the question is not only what you can save right now with the cheap backup that's on your roster...it's how you are going to divide your cap money over the whole roster on an ongoing basis. 

Since we are talking about math, the other serious mistake we're making is looking at the number -- 24 million and not the PERCENTAGE OF THE CAP.  When you look at the health of the whole team, who else you can sign, percentage of the cap means more than total number.  IT may take 14+% of the cap to sign Cousins.  People often say, well Aaron Rodgers only makes 22 million..yeah that was over 17% of the cap when he signed it.  So you can't compare the two contracts.  Teams have more cap space -- more to sign QBs and more to sign defensive players.  More for all salaries.  That means contracts now will be richer than contracts in the past.  Of course NOW Rodgers contract is better, just as Cousins contract will be better 3 years from now vs. the franchise QBs that are signed in 2020, when the cap has grown even more.  When you look at it in percentage of the cap, I think what Cousins and his agent actually want is more reasonable than what a lot of pundits and fans think.  I actually think I read somewhere that 14+% of cap at the time of signing is really a window for above average QBs, not simply super elite.  THis article has more on the topic and is a decent read:  http://www.hogshaven.com/2017/1/22/14348830/by-the-numbers-kirk-is-worth-24m-poll

 
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The cold hard fact is Cousins pretty much owns them and anyone else who wants him right now...that's going to be the holdup in negotiations.  He can bet on himself for as much as he wants to.

He can take $24m franchise tag then bolt in FA to a team of his choosing next year and that team wouldn't have to give up anything, allowing Cousins a better chance to succeed when he gets there.  Plus no team is going to trade 1st round picks for him unless they can get a long term deal done.  And that number is pretty much the same as what the Skins would have to pay.

Behind closed doors maybe the Redskins have offered $24m a year for 5 years.  Heck, maybe they offered $26m per year.  And Kirk's agent said..."no thanks".  What recourse do the Skins have?  None.  It's to Cousin's advantage to hit the open market next year, especially since he doesn't seem injury prone.

 
Brunell4MVP said:
The cold hard fact is Cousins pretty much owns them and anyone else who wants him right now...that's going to be the holdup in negotiations.  He can bet on himself for as much as he wants to.

He can take $24m franchise tag then bolt in FA to a team of his choosing next year and that team wouldn't have to give up anything, allowing Cousins a better chance to succeed when he gets there. Plus no team is going to trade 1st round picks for him unless they can get a long term deal done.  And that number is pretty much the same as what the Skins would have to pay.

Behind closed doors maybe the Redskins have offered $24m a year for 5 years.  Heck, maybe they offered $26m per year.  And Kirk's agent said..."no thanks".  What recourse do the Skins have?  None.  It's to Cousin's advantage to hit the open market next year, especially since he doesn't seem injury prone.
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I wasn't even considering this. A team trading for Cousins would be giving up 1st round picks AND $24 million a year. 

For some perspective, Goffs number 1, number 1 salary is about $7million a year. 

 
Brunell4MVP said:
The cold hard fact is Cousins pretty much owns them and anyone else who wants him right now...that's going to be the holdup in negotiations.  He can bet on himself for as much as he wants to.

He can take $24m franchise tag then bolt in FA to a team of his choosing next year and that team wouldn't have to give up anything, allowing Cousins a better chance to succeed when he gets there.  Plus no team is going to trade 1st round picks for him unless they can get a long term deal done.  And that number is pretty much the same as what the Skins would have to pay.

Behind closed doors maybe the Redskins have offered $24m a year for 5 years.  Heck, maybe they offered $26m per year.  And Kirk's agent said..."no thanks".  What recourse do the Skins have?  None.  It's to Cousin's advantage to hit the open market next year, especially since he doesn't seem injury prone.
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Wow, so you are saying he would turn down any deal with the Redskins just cause he knows he can get more in a bidding war?  I would hope to Gosh if the Redskins offered somewhere between 24 and 26 per year he would consider it.  What do you see Cousins out for...28 million per year?  I'm not sure if he's gonna get that anywhere.

He clearly shouldn't let the Redskins lowball him at 20 M...but he needs to think twice if he has 25 M on the table because one subpar year and he could gamble and LOSE.  Yes, things worked out for him this year, but a full NFL season could turn out a lot of ways -- injuries, crappy season, even a benching.  That 25 on the open market could evaporate for him too...it's not a risk free proposition.  SO if he has the security of 5 years at 25 M, you have to think about it...

 
MikeApf said:
Wow, so you are saying he would turn down any deal with the Redskins just cause he knows he can get more in a bidding war?  I would hope to Gosh if the Redskins offered somewhere between 24 and 26 per year he would consider it.  What do you see Cousins out for...28 million per year?  I'm not sure if he's gonna get that anywhere.

He clearly shouldn't let the Redskins lowball him at 20 M...but he needs to think twice if he has 25 M on the table because one subpar year and he could gamble and LOSE.  Yes, things worked out for him this year, but a full NFL season could turn out a lot of ways -- injuries, crappy season, even a benching.  That 25 on the open market could evaporate for him too...it's not a risk free proposition.  SO if he has the security of 5 years at 25 M, you have to think about it...
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I do think a deal will get done and Cousins will stay.

My only point is Cousins has all the power and if he doesn't see the number he likes, he can wait it out a year and then he is in a bidding war.  It's all his call.  The Redskins could offer him a huge contract and he could just say no.  It's all about how much Kirk wants to bet on Kirk.  

The end point being, the Redskins brass kinda screwed this up by not franchising him last year, then getting a deal done immediately afterwards.  McCloughan and Allen should not be exempt from blame for messing this up.

 
Brunell4MVP said:
I do think a deal will get done and Cousins will stay.

My only point is Cousins has all the power and if he doesn't see the number he likes, he can wait it out a year and then he is in a bidding war.  It's all his call.  The Redskins could offer him a huge contract and he could just say no.  It's all about how much Kirk wants to bet on Kirk.  

The end point being, the Redskins brass kinda screwed this up by not franchising him last year, then getting a deal done immediately afterwards.  McCloughan and Allen should not be exempt from blame for messing this up.
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Yes, reports are that the Skins could have had him for 20M last year.  But hind site is 20-20.  Scot said at the time, "Let me overpay him when he prooves it" So basically that has come to pass.  But yeah, if they had the foresight, he would have been a steal at 20...

 
More of that famous Cousins hustle.

Driving, Washington’s Cousins was attempting to lead his team to victory but the ball was given to a ref to spot. Someone on Flutie’s team swatted it away, and Cousins desperately sought a flag. So much so that he approached an official and pushed him.

Cousins’ team lost the game, and the ref who was shoved spoke with Deadspin about the matter.

“He (Cousins) was fired up because he was losing and running out of time,” he said. “Then the other team knocked the ball away while I was trying to set it for play. He wanted me to flag him for swatting it, but what he doesn’t know is that we were enforcing another penalty and it was going to give him another down. He never apologized or even showed any kind of regret. That’s OK, though...everyone else gets to see how he is.”

After the loss, Cousins failed to mention the shove.
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I still don't see that Cousins has all the leverage here. Where's he going to go? Cleveland or SF and get dragged down by a bad team? Sit out a year? Neither of those sounds too appealing, and he won't have all the adoring media coverage he has in Washington.

Washington should make him an offer close to $20 million/yr, and if they can't agree close to that make him a non-exclusive free agent. With a horrible DC gone and money to spend on defense, McCoy can get the team at least a game over .500, which is what Cousins will do for $20-some million.

 
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fatness said:
I still don't see that Cousins has all the leverage here. Where's he going to go? Cleveland or SF and get dragged down by a bad team? Sit out a year? Neither of those sounds too appealing, and he won't have all the adoring media coverage he has in Washington.

Washington should make him an offer close to $20 million/yr, and if they can't agree close to that make him a non-exclusive free agent. With a horrible DC gone and money to spend on defense, McCoy can get the team at least a game over .500, which is what Cousins will do for $20-some million.
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He does have ALL the leverage.  Here is the timeline.

Scenario 1:  They sign a long term deal before the franchise date requirement.  If so, Cousins gets a huge contract.

Scenario 2:  They don't franchise him and he's a FA.  His potential suitors would be DEN, ARI, SF, BUF, NYJ, CLE, CHI, and maybe PIT if Ben retires.  3 of those teams are clearly better than the Skins (Den, Ari, Pit).  Cousins gets huge contract.

Scenario 3:  They franchise him and hope he signs a long term deal before the season.  Cousins gets $24M if franchised, and if they work it out he gets a huge contract.

Scenario 4:  They franchise him and hope to trade him.  I find it hard to believe a GM isn't patient enough to wait 1 year for him to hit FA and they give up nothing, but I guess there could be trades out there.  But even then, the other team will want to get a long term deal done.  Cousins can block any trade by saying he won't sign a long term deal there, so if he doesn't want CLE that's in his power to block it.   So he will get paid by the new team that he's willing to play for, or the trade wont't happen. Cousins gets huge contract.

Scenario 5:  Franchised and plays for Skins and hits FA immediately after next season.  Now he has not only the teams above unless they found their QB, but maybe also some places where the QB could retire.  NE?  NYG?  NO?  Cousins gets huge contract.

The ONLY scenario Cousins doesn't get paid a huge contract by the start of the 2018 season if he plays under the franchise tag and gets hurt or plays terrible.  And therein lies the only reason he would want to get a long term contract done.  And it's a good reason.  But it's in his control to make that decision.

 
NFL Network's Daniel Jeremiah "would not be shocked at all" if the Redskins and 49ers agree to a trade involving Kirk Cousins at the Combine.
Jeremiah isn't a typical Rotoworld source on the NFL side, but with draft season upon us, he has an ear to the ground and talks with numerous personnel people. He believes there's a "better than 50 percent" chance Cousins isn't a 2017 Redskin, and a deal sending Cousins to San Francisco, possibly along with the Redskins' No. 17 overall pick, in exchange for the 49ers' No. 2 overall pick is in the cards. Further, Jeremiah reports the Redskins still aren't sold on Cousins long-term. Washington seems intent on bungling an offense that had become one of the best in the league. Cousins would be a massive get for the rebuilding Niners.

Related: 49ers
 
Source: 1090 San Diego 
Feb 22 - 12:11 PM
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FreeBaGeL said:
Redskins are idiots of a special magnitude if they don't re-sign this guy.  
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At this point I believe they have lost him. He can take big $ from them this year and leave and they get absolutely nothing. Shanahan will most certainly sign him for good $ in 2018. They have ####ed with him and like Brunell4MVP says, he holds ALL the cards right now. They boxed themselves into a corner by being some of the dumbest FO personnel in the NFL.

He is in for a rude awakening in SF though, if that is where he lands. They are horrible across the board.

 
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lod001 said:
He is in for a rude awakening in SF though, if that is where he lands. They are horrible across the board.
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And I doubt he cares because he'll get paid. This entire situation does suck...I just hope if they do make a trade that they don't spend a 1st on a QB in this year's class. 

 
CabinFever said:
And I doubt he cares because he'll get paid. This entire situation does suck...I just hope if they do make a trade that they don't spend a 1st on a QB in this year's class. 
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They are a bottom feeder without him. McCoy will get hurt as he always does. 2011 injury-concussion. 2012-shoulder injury. 2013 -SF -another shoulder injury. 2014 season ending IR.

 
lod001 said:
They are a bottom feeder without him. McCoy will get hurt as he always does. 2011 injury-concussion. 2012-shoulder injury. 2013 -SF -another shoulder injury. 2014 season ending IR.
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Agreed, but I suspect they'd sign one of the various free agents and draft Jonathan allen.  I'm not sure how much they'd save downgrading from cousins to Cutler/Taylor/Glennon. I wouldn't think Cavanaugh would want cutler, having been his coach for one of Jay's worst seasons, but maybe he'll see things differently? 

 
fatness said:
Who said this a month ago?
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Man, you are weak. You haven't ever seen horrible teams go from worst to 1st in a division? I give you the NFC South. Yes, they suck across the board but that can be repaired fast.

You know what is going to be entertaining? You when the Skins lose Cousins and your team festers in the basement with no QB on the horizon.

I'll add this little link: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000769202/article/eagles-jaguars-lead-worsttofirst-candidates-for-2017-season

Check out who is in the 8th spot. There's no viable quarterback on the roster or, for that matter, very many players who look like they belong on a winning team. The Niners have to basically tear everything down and start over. Getting Cousins is where it needs to start. They agree with what I said.

 
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lod001 said:
At this point I believe they have lost him. He can take big $ from them this year and leave and they get absolutely nothing. Shanahan will most certainly sign him for good $ in 2018. They have ####ed with him and like Brunell4MVP says, he holds ALL the cards right now. They boxed themselves into a corner by being some of the dumbest FO personnel in the NFL.

He is in for a rude awakening in SF though, if that is where he lands. They are horrible across the board.
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Which is probably why we are seeing more of Allen in the press.  Let me speculate at why the Redskins are looking so lost once again.

Allen just casually went along with Scot's decision on Cousins last year because after all it wasn't 100% Cousin was the guy at the time anyway and if Allen keeps quiet he can't be wrong.  Now that it's clear Scot was wrong, Allen sees his chance to grab the reigns back and tell Danny, "Scot f'ed this up. Not me.  I was better."  And since Allen owns the contract negotiations role nothing is really getting done.  He can stalemate Scot.  The FAs agents apparently aren't even getting talked to.  

Since we have no idea who has made personnel decisions on each player for the last 3 years who knows who has picked the better players.  That's not the point.  The point is, the Redskins should have a GM that owns the contract negotiations.

 
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Brunell4MVP said:
Which is probably why we are seeing more of Allen in the press.  Let me speculate at why the Redskins are looking so lost once again.

Allen just casually went along with Scot's decision on Cousins last year because after all it wasn't 100% Cousin was the guy at the time anyway and if Allen keeps quiet he can't be wrong.  Now that it's clear Scot was wrong, Allen sees his chance to grab the reigns back and tell Danny, "Scot f'ed this up. Not me.  I was better."  And since Allen owns the contract negotiations role nothing is really getting done.  He can stalemate Scot.  The FAs agents apparently aren't even getting talked to.  

Since we have no idea who has made personnel decisions on each player for the last 3 years who knows who has picked the better players.  That's not the point.  The point is, the Redskins should have a GM that owns the contract negotiations.
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That's some ####ed up ####. Those 2 jackasses should be working together. Snyder's a moron, that much we know. To let this get this far proves that.

 
Brunell4MVP said:
  The point is, the Redskins should have a GM that owns the contract negotiations.
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And they never will as long as Allen is there, unless he regains the GM title himself (which would be bad, he sucks, he used to be called "in charge of pants and picnics" because that's all he's good at). But he's so far up Snyder's butt he'll always be there.

If you're a Skins fan like you and me, you just have to root for the team despite Snyder and Allen.

 
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Saboo said:
Couldn’t disagree more. He’s a mediocre qb at best. There is zero value in giving him the $ that he is asking for
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Mediocre at best?

His efficiency metrics are elite.  He's putting up better efficiency numbers than Andrew Luck by a good margin and he's doing it with a fairly mediocre supporting cast.

If Cousins has been mediocre at best, then there are like 3 QBs in the NFL that are better than mediocre right now.

 
-OZ- said:
Reed is elite - when he plays.  Garcon and DeSean are good but as a group?  They're maybe average.  Kelly/Jones are below average.  

So yeah, mediocre.  
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Unless I am missing something, there were only three other duos with 1,000 yds each that I could find. Somehow I think that puts them a bit above mediocre.

 
DallasDMac said:
Unless I am missing something, there were only three other duos with 1,000 yds each that I could find. Somehow I think that puts them a bit above mediocre.
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Seems that their QB had something to do with that.  

Garcon had one other year over 1k in his 9 year career. DeSean has been better but is hardly elite at this point. They both ranked around 60th in yards after catch. 

 
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There has NEVER in the HISTORY of the sport been a QB that left a good situation to chase the money and succeeded. Cousins is being a COMPLETE idiot. He needs to be smart and take a fair deal in the system that built him or he will be out of the league in two years.

/lod hot take

 
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FreeBaGeL said:
Mediocre at best?

His efficiency metrics are elite.  He's putting up better efficiency numbers than Andrew Luck by a good margin and he's doing it with a fairly mediocre supporting cast.

If Cousins has been mediocre at best, then there are like 3 QBs in the NFL that are better than mediocre right now.
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And yet, half the teams in the league wouldn't swap their QB straight up for Cousins.

 
petekrum said:
The list of teams that would trade their top 2 WRs for Jackson and Garcon is short.
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Not THAT short:

Jets
Buf
Bal
Ten
KC
Phi
LAR
SF
Mia?
Min?
Car?

Chi (if Jeffery leaves)
Cle? (If Pryor leaves, for sure...)
Det (probably not, but had to think about it)

And the teams with a too-good-to-trade #1, but for whom Garcon/DJax would be massive upgrades at WR2:

Dal
Cin
TB

 
Sebowski said:
There has NEVER in the HISTORY of the sport been a QB that left a good situation to chase the money. Cousins is being a COMPLETE idiot. He needs to be smart and take a fair deal in the system that built him or he will be out of the league in two years.

/lod hot take
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:lol: Well done.

 
Arodin said:
Not THAT short:

Jets 
Buf :no:
Bal 
Ten
KC :no:
Phi :oldunsure:
LAR
SF
Mia? :no:
Min? :no:
Car? :no:

Chi (if Jeffery leaves)
Cle? (If Pryor leaves, for sure...)
Det (probably not, but had to think about it) :no:

And the teams with a too-good-to-trade #1, but for whom Garcon/DJax would be massive upgrades at WR2:

Dal
Cin
TB 
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By your count, there are 8 teams you feel confident the skins duo is better, with another 6 you seem unsure about.  That's less than half the league.  I'll disslagree with some, although buffalo is more looking forward.  (If we're looking backwards, Baltimore is at least close). 

I know you'll disagree here but I don't think Garcon is that much better than LaFell.  

Maybe you'd disagree with the definition in this context, but average is a synonym for mediocre. 

 
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petekrum said:
And yet, half the teams in the league wouldn't swap their QB straight up for Cousins.
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You realize half is a lot in a 32-team market, right? And that some of the half you say wouldn't want Cousins are basically gambling on a young guy to develop on a cheap rookie contract, but could easily be wrong? 

I'm not saying Cousins is special, but QBs in the NFL are that bad right now despite an easier passing game than ever before and better receivers all around than I can ever remember.

 
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-OZ- said:
By your count, there are 8 teams you feel confident the skins duo is better, with another 6 you seem unsure about.  That's less than half the league.  I'll disslagree with some, although buffalo is more looking forward.  (If we're looking backwards, Baltimore is at least close). 

I know you'll disagree here but I don't think Garcon is that much better than LaFell.  

Maybe you'd disagree with the definition in this context, but average is a synonym for mediocre. 
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I doubt the Jets or Titans would either.

 
Sebowski said:
There has NEVER in the HISTORY of the sport been a QB that left a good situation to chase the money and succeeded. Cousins is being a COMPLETE idiot. He needs to be smart and take a fair deal in the system that built him or he will be out of the league in two years.

/lod hot take
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Have they offered a fair deal yet? Can't call him an idiot if they are not even coming close to a top QB contract.

As far as your 'history' statement, that's because no team has been dumb enough to let go of a top QB. Name the QB's of Cousins level 'statistically' that have left a team for another team for $. I'm talking 2 consecutive years of top 10 production.

 
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DallasDMac said:
Unless I am missing something, there were only three other duos with 1,000 yds each that I could find. Somehow I think that puts them a bit above mediocre.
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So what you are saying is that there were only 3 other QBs in the league that played so well that both the top 2 WRs had 1K yards. Got it.

 
I think Jay Gruden might be a very underrated QB whisperer.

Cousins had really nice stats. Can't win a statistical based argument if you think he's an average or middling QB but that's what I think he is. I just trust what I see and I don't think he's a difference making, team changing, championship type QB.

I'd rather pay McCoy abut 1/8th of what it costs to pay Cousins. You add in that I could maybe move pick 17 to 2 to or come up with something tangible in trade value for Cousins and I'd be all in and quickly.

The Redskins have a TE who is elite, one of the biggest matchup problems in the NFL. The WR's are not elite individually, not a single one of them. But here is what I don't think people are properly grasping, the sum of the parts is elite. The Redskins WR group is almost the prototype for what you want. You got an ideal take the top the defense deep threat, a big bodied strong YAC possession WR and one of the NFL's best slot WR's. You combine that with an elite matchup nightmare TE and I think the whole of the parts of this Redskins receiving group is in fact very good, if not elite.

 
Hard to think of qbs that had success on one team as the established starter then went elsewhere and also thrived.  Warren moon, kurt warner, peyton manning, drew brees

 
Riversco said:
Hard to think of qbs that had success on one team as the established starter then went elsewhere and also thrived.  Warren moon, kurt warner, peyton manning, drew brees
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Sure, because most owners and staffs keep their guy.  

Rich Gannon, Alex Smith, vinny testaverde (the definition of journeyman), kerry Collins... though I'd sure hope cousins does better.

 
-OZ- said:
Sure, because most owners and staffs keep their guy.  

Rich Gannon, Alex Smith, vinny testaverde (the definition of journeyman), kerry Collins... though I'd sure hope cousins does better.
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Yeah I'm not sure I can think of a guy that moved on who had numbers as good as Cousins and was still right in the heart of his prime and coming off a great season.  Brees and Cutler are about the only two I can think of, though even they had efficiency numbers that paled in comparison to Cousins'.

 
-OZ- said:
Sure, because most owners and staffs keep their guy.  

Rich Gannon, Alex Smith, vinny testaverde (the definition of journeyman), kerry Collins... though I'd sure hope cousins does better.
Click to expand...
Rich Gannon never had success until he went to the Raiders.  Alex Smith never had success until he went to the Chiefs.  Vinny I don't think had success at all.  Maybe the Jets?

 
lod001 said:
So what you are saying is that there were only 3 other QBs in the league that played so well that both the top 2 WRs had 1K yards. Got it.
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That's an excellent point. I mean, other than the fact it had zero to do with the my post or the one I responded too.

 
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