Though I think it's an interesting comparision with regard to body type and athleticism, I've chosen to compare the flaws in Coples' current edge rushing technique to Jason Pierre-Paul primarily because that's the comparison Coples himself raised when asked at the Senior Bowl. There's no question it's an extremely lofty comparison and quite a high ceiling for Coples to aspire to reach.One thing is a lack of some sort of a baseline or average of where starting NFL DE's rank comparatively in terms of technique. The JPP article will undoubtably show good technique but he probably ranks higher than the average starting NFL DE in terms of technique.
I've chosen to focus on Coples' pad level in this series, but have noted a number of other technical things that Coples does well along the way (stance, explosiveness off the ball, arm extension and use of his good hand strength). I could write another short series of posts on how well Coples sets up and executes his preferred pass rush move (inside swim technique) and show how favorably that pass rush move compares to Pierre-Paul, who's very adept at that move as well.As to why he doesn't have better technique in this particular area, I'm not willing to speculate whether it's due to lack of coaching, disinterest/inability in making the adjustments or some conscious or subconscious lack of focus on this particular area of technique because he has such a large advantage in physical ability. I'm only willing to say that I think he's compensated for his technical issues with good athleticism in the clips I've seen.The Football Guys IDP staff is probably more on top of determining a 'technique' average or baseline and how far off the mark that Coples is off the mark in terms of technique. He does seem to have physical traits that can't be coached so the question is why the FBGs IDP staff think Quinton is lacking on technique? The article says that his physical ability allowed him to get away with that in college so are concerns on work ethic that he won't refine and perfect his technique or is the JPP comparison going to show that Pierre-Paul came in a bit raw but was able to overcome some things in his second year in the league and Coples has a similiar build and raw skills so he 'could' become a quality player like JPP or that his technique is soo poor that their are real concerns he'll ever approach JPP?
I'll be discussing that "lean" more in the next post, using a few frames of JPP to illustrate the angle a pass rusher needs to achieve to limit the number of steps to the quarterback when coming off the edge. DeMarcus Ware is excellent, so are players like Robert Mathis. Jared Allen might be the best and most consistent I've ever seen. Had Coples not suggested JPP as his comp, I'd have used Allen to make my point.'Bracie Smathers said:The arcile mentioned one of the practice routines that Wade Phillips always ran where he had the pass rushers dip down around a tackling dummy and had a red flag on the ground. The object of the drill was to have the pass rusher dip-down as far they could without losing balance or hitting the ground and pick up the flag off the ground while still spinning past the tackling dummy and coninuing on.Wade marveled at Ware's ability and I believe the article showed a photo and it looked like Ware was only inches about the ground on his turn around the tackling dummy. Very impressive. So when I think of an edge pass rusher I think of the best edge rusher I've seen and that is Demarcus Ware and look for explosion and for the 'dip-down' around the tackle.
I had Sheard near the top of my 4-3 DE prospect list last year, but he's a bit of a different player than Coples. Both project as all-around 4-3 ends that can play on either side and on every down, but Sheard is more Aaron Kampman than Julius Peppers. Sheard is not an edge rusher. Coples isn't a traditional speed rusher, but he's athletic enough that he should be able to add a legitimate edge rush component to his array of moves. Whereas Coples' success starts on the strength of his elite measurables, Sheard will always need to be technically proficient and play through the whistle. Not that Coples doesn't need those qualities, but his athleticism may allow him to break through now and then without them. It's very rare that a college defensive end comes into the league with a NFL ready mix of technique and core body strength to play the run effectively and at least one counter pass rush move. Sheard is over halfway there. I think he tired out over the last six games against the run, but there were good signs earlier in the season.Coples ceiling is higher than Sheard, and he may be considered a disappointment (due to his likely draft position) if he ends up playing "only" as well as Sheard did this year, but Sheard's level of play is a pretty lofty goal for any rookie DE.'Bracie Smathers said:Last year the Browns switched to the 4-3 and lacked 43 DEs so I knew they had to take one early and they got Jabaal Sheard. I looked at the pass rushers and Sheard stood out to me but he seemed to not have a true edge pass rush but he was consistent and I was happy when the Browns got him in the second round. He has panned out far better than I ever imagined. What did you think of Sheard last year?Also when I see Coples I kinda see some similarities to Jabaal Sheard in terms of weakness because last year I felt in looking at his college plays that he got stood up by the tackle on many plays to the point I wasn't sure about his pass rush. That forced me to seek out more tape on Sheard and he won me over by his consistency. I don't think Sheard will ever be a dominating edge pass rusher in the way that Demarcus Ware is because he's not as explosive and can't get as low on the edge but he is consistent and makes plays.Coples has better raw physical ability than Sheard but I haven't seen enough tape of him to make a comparison with Jabaal Sheard.It may not have crossed your mind but since I raise the point how do you think Coples and Sheard stack up in terms of comparison coming out as college prospects?
I fully endorse this moniker and plan on spreading it far and wide.This is quickly turning into my favorite discussion in a long time. I have put a lot of thought into the ideas presented by Jene and I have some thoughts on Bracie's idea for a baseline comparison for technique which I'll try to explain later as I refine my thoughts a little bit.I'm not sure if there is a succinct word or phrase for this, so I would like to coin the term... I would like to refer to the space between a DEs coil and the pass blockers set stance as the bramel. The ability of a player to move quickly and efficiently through the bramel has a high correlation to how effectively a defender can get an angle to the QB using various moves.
This is quickly turning into my favorite discussion in a long time. I have put a lot of thought into the ideas presented by Jene and I have some thoughts on Bracie's idea for a baseline comparison for technique which I'll try to explain later as I refine my thoughts a little bit.
I'm not sure if there is a succinct word or phrase for this, so I would like to coin the term... I would like to refer to the space between a DEs coil and the pass blockers set stance as the bramel. The ability of a player to move quickly and efficiently through the bramel has a high correlation to how effectively a defender can get an angle to the QB using various moves.
The word technique just describes the way in which something is done. You really need to clarify something as proper technique or improper technique. The difference is that proper technique is the fundamentally optimal way of doing something. Improper technique is sub optimal with varying degrees based on how exploitable it is. In this discussion the word technique is being used to mean proper technique.The game that is taking place between the DE and OT is simply this, one guy is trying to disrupt the QB and the other guy is trying to stop him from doing so in a timely fashion.'Bracie Smathers said:One thing is a lack of some sort of a baseline or average of where starting NFL DE's rank comparatively in terms of technique.
The Football Guys IDP staff is probably more on top of determining a 'technique' average or baseline and how far off the mark that Coples is off the mark in terms of technique. He does seem to have physical traits that can't be coached so the question is why the FBGs IDP staff think Quinton is lacking on technique?
Without knowing how other NFL starting DE's stack up in terms of technique it is tough to try and project how a college prospect rates.
Geez, Sam Baker is kinda the Angel Hernandez (horrendous umpire in MLB) of offensive linemen this year. Every bad highlight or story about the Falcons, and he's in it. He even shows up in random blog postings about a draft prospect from North Carolina as an example of how to get your butt handed to you in a power rush.*And watch Matt Ryan's entire body collapse like a noodle here...The word technique just describes the way in which something is done. You really need to clarify something as proper technique or improper technique. The difference is that proper technique is the fundamentally optimal way of doing something. Improper technique is sub optimal with varying degrees based on how exploitable it is. In this discussion the word technique is being used to mean proper technique.The game that is taking place between the DE and OT is simply this, one guy is trying to disrupt the QB and the other guy is trying to stop him from doing so in a timely fashion.'Bracie Smathers said:One thing is a lack of some sort of a baseline or average of where starting NFL DE's rank comparatively in terms of technique.
The Football Guys IDP staff is probably more on top of determining a 'technique' average or baseline and how far off the mark that Coples is off the mark in terms of technique. He does seem to have physical traits that can't be coached so the question is why the FBGs IDP staff think Quinton is lacking on technique?
Without knowing how other NFL starting DE's stack up in terms of technique it is tough to try and project how a college prospect rates.
So let's break that game within the game down even further into three simplified parts...
1 - On the snap of the ball the DE must move through the bramel and around the OT. If the DE can just run past the OT and close on the QB, essentially it's game over. Coples is fully capable of moving through the bramel given his athletic ability, size, speed, strength, etc. However he's not doing it the best way possible. At this point though it hasn't hurt him and if he gets around the OT it won't be relevant. If he engages the OT while the OT has a solid base (which is the fundamental strategy he is striving for) things change...
2 - Usually the DE and OT will come into contact with each other and with that contact a new game arises involving hand fighting, cutting, pushing, counters, etc. So from this new game that arises the DE and OT will either be in proper position to make fundamentally optimal strategic decisions (moves) or they won't.
This is the problem with Coples having bad pad level, he can move through the bramel in a somewhat timely fashion as evidenced by his get off shown in the article photos, but once through the bramel and engaged with the blocker his earlier flawed technique comes back to haunt him because he doesn't have the leverage necessary to make the best moves in the context of the new game that has arisen. His options now are limited by his earlier choices, and thus his ability to win the situation decreases. This is why a low pad level correlates to the best way to move through the bramel, it keeps options open and optimal.
The thing about this new game is that Coples is at a strategic disadvantage, meaning he can't properly utilize his preferred options (strengths) in many cases. He is not in position to generate the most force and make the most crisp quick moves. He is easier for the OT to control while engaged and this means it's taking more time for him to get to the QB.
Now there are times when certain strengths could still be utilized to win the new game despite the disadvantage. A prime example being physical strength. This explains why you can see a player mask flawed technique but still win the games within the game, it's common for a player to just overpower another when their competition levels are so different. Leverage goes out the window if one player has such a clear strength/quickness advantage. At the NFL level these advantages are marginalized because generally everyone is big, fast, and strong in a relative sense. As you go up levels in competition your weaknesses get exposed and exploited more, that's why fundamental technique is paramount in minimizing weaknesses.
3 - After the DE is able to disengage the game now is chasing down the QB, which can lead to other things, but the important part here is realizing that how a player moves through the bramel impacts how he will have to approach the engagement game. Great ability to move through the bramel can bypass the engagement totally.
---
So once you can break it down into those parts you can try to quantify who is doing it best, but there is one other aspect that complicates things.
I've noticed that some players are better moving through the bramel and others are better at winning the engagement battle. DEs like Dwight Freeney and Jared Allen are so quick through the bramel that they often catch OTs before they are set and thus negate the options the OT has. (see it works both ways) They are aiming to use their quickness to get their inside arm under the OTs outside arm, as they dip and raise their inside arm up which allows them to control the OT and move right past him and onto the QB.
Their moves are based off of this concept. It looks the same every rush and if the OT is quick enough to cut off that dip option they counter back to the inside or power through the chest using the OTs momentum against them. This counter move game is a new game that has arisen, but they are fundamentally in position to have optimal options in the new situation. Everything they do has a consistent foundation build in that serves them well leading into the new games that can arise. Freeney's spin is particularly devastating because it looks just like his outside move and his outside technique puts him in perfect position to spin back inside. This is why he is so good, because his moves are simply one strategy that he is always in position to adapt and adjust properly. Everything is based off of his quick first step, his blend of speed and power is about as good as it gets for a pass rusher. Jared Allen is similar in that it all starts with his first step.
The other side of the issue is basing your game on power. Adrian Clayborn is a good example of this. His first step is nothing special, but as he moves through the bramel he often seems to have his focus on getting his hands on the OT to hit/ grab and throw him aside violently. He's trying to disrupt the OTs center of balance in a different way. His way usually leads to a shorter path (inside path) to the pocket. (example: http://youtu.be/9bT6-Ecefn8 - notice that he's not that quick on the snap)
This leads to different styles which require different fundamentals. So when I look at a prospect I like to think about what their game actually is. Clayborn's game is much different from Freeney's but they are still both DEs in 4 man front schemes. Quantifying the different styles and even blends of styles then adjusting based on games and further adjusting based on scheme is daunting. I don't know if you can put a number on that to measure how sub optimal a player is. The best solution may be to time how fast a player can get past the engagement consistently, as this is when a QB is threatened essentially. The numbers would probably have to be 2 fold. A success rate of actually getting past engagement and then the average time of the successes. Probably going to be pretty tedious to track accurately and there are many variables that I haven't even addressed yet.
Matt,You mistakenly credited me for the Bramel Effificiency:Bracie...
Stay tuned.
I tweaked it to the Bramel Efficiency.
If that term sticks then the honor should go to DROP since he coined the term.I'd actually reference MLB and the Mendoza Line and go with 'The Bramel Line' of efficiency or something snappier like the 'Beau Bramel Line' of pass rush efficiency but if the Bramel Efficiency sticks then Drop gets the honor.[Editor's Note: If pass rushers were like appliances and electronics, they'd receive the Energy Star certification. I think "Bracie Smathers," one of our readers puts it best:
I'm not sure if there is a succinct word or phrase for this, so I would like to coin the term... I would like to refer to the space between a DEs coil and the pass blockers set stance as the "Bramel," or, the ability of a player to move quickly and efficiently through the Bramel has a high correlation to how effectively a defender can get an angle to the QB using various moves.
Personally, I like it. But I want to tweak it. How well an edge rusher takes the corner should be called the Bramel Efficiency. Jason Pierre-Paul has developed a high Bramel Efficiency, while Quinton Coples has as low Bramel Efficiency.]
In the article Jene breaks out this point by stating:"Unlike Coples, Pierre-Paul stays low through contact with the offensive tackle. And instead of driving up field vertically parallel to the pocket, he begins to drive at an angle toward the passer.... In this discussion the word technique is being used to mean proper technique..... let's break that game within the game down even further into three simplified parts...'Bracie Smathers said:... some sort of a baseline or average of where starting NFL DE's rank comparatively in terms of technique.
... Without knowing how other NFL starting DE's stack up in terms of technique it is tough to try and project how a college prospect rates.
1 - On the snap of the ball the DE must move through the bramel and around the OT.
Jene breaks out this portion of the pass rush by stating:"Pierre-Paul’s good technique and pad level allows him to plant his outside foot quickly and get into a body angle that generates the lean he needs to close on the pocket fast.2 - Usually the DE and OT will come into contact with each other ... This is the problem with Coples having bad pad level,
Waldman did a great job in breaking out how WRs need to flatten out their routes to break from DBs and uses that knowledge to show how a pass rusher needs to first 'rip' or disengauge from the OT and then flatten out his path to the QB much like a WR flattens out his recieving route to break away from a DB."A step and a half later, Pierre-Paul dips under the offensive tackle and flattens his route to the passer.3 - After the DE is able to disengage the game now is chasing down the QB, which can lead to other things, but the important part here is realizing that how a player moves through the bramel impacts how he will have to approach the engagement game. Great ability to move through the bramel can bypass the engagement totally.
.The reason I asked about some sort of baseline or Beau Bramel Line is because if we had a way to clafity how technically proficient a pass rusher was then we could concentrate on other aspects like physicality or athleticism and that is what you do with the latter portion of your post where you go deeper in mentioning specific pass rush moves and games.---
So once you can break it down into those parts you can try to quantify who is doing it best, but there is one other aspect that complicates things
Clayborn was born with Erb's palsy, actually during his birth, as his head and one shoulder was pushed to a side causing nerve damage to his right shoulder.He's undergone lifelong therapy but his dominant side/shoulder is his left.When he was drafted it was widely reported he would be limited to playing the weakside. the same side he played in high school and in college and where he plays for Tampa Bay. I understood the example but Clayborn probably is different than other DE in terms of strength because he is unusually left-side dominant with his strength.I don't know how accurate the notion of Adrian Clayborn having little or no strength in one arm is. I remember reading about him in practice with Tampa Bay and whoever he was going up against wasn't doing so well so he went up one of the coaches and asked which arm was the Clayborn's weak one. I know that he has some health concerns, but little or no strength is an exaggeration from what I've seen on the field. However if you want another example of a DL who isn't particularly quick on the snap and relies more on dominating the engagement phase, Chris Long fits the mold because of his hand fighting.