Ran a 10k - Official Thread (11 Viewers)

[ClownCausedChaos2]

Thank you for the tips. I agree with the pain assessment. Until I really thought about it and realized that I hadn't done anything to have injured myself, I would have sworn I fractured something.

Red meat and beer are two of my vices. Honestly, I'm surprised it took the gout this long.

One thing the doc will probably tell you, once you get it, your chances of getting it again go up. Used to be called the rich mans disease because back in the day they were the only ones who could afford to eat red meat & seafood. You'll be good to go in about 7 days

Rich man's disease, huh? I can tell you first-hand that is certainly not the case

I did read and was told about the increased risk of flare-ups now that I've gotten it once. Just one more thing to look forward to as I get older.

The good news is that this morning, the stiffness in my foot/toe is still there, but the swelling has gone down considerably and the pain is still present, but 75% better than it was yesterday. I'm feeling better about my chances for the 5K on Saturday.

 

[Brony]

From my line of work, I know more about gout than anyone really should know about any subject.

The red meat/ beer thing is an easy dismissal of the cause of the disease, but lots of people eat red meat, beer and most of them don't get gout. The cause for 9 out of 10 people is impaired kidney function. There are no fixes for the kidney, so that info doesn't necessarily help people with the condition and a reason people like to latch onto diet as the cause.

Any way, I could provide tons of info that you could easily find online. Instead I'll tell you what I would do if I was in your shoes after hearing from 100's of patients and doctors. Keep a good supply of anti-inflammatories in the house (naproxen or indomethacin or prednisone if your MD allows it). At the first sign of an attack with a twinge in that toe area, take the maximum # of pills your MD allows.

On daily basis, drink plenty of water to help maximize uric acid getting out of your body. If your uric acid number from your blood test comes back between 6 and say 8.5, I wouldn't panic and just continue to monitor. If your uric acid is high (higher than 9), your MD will talk you through going on allopurinol, a once daily med to reduce uric acid which many people will take if attacks persist.

If you want to lay off the steak and shrimp, drink cherry juice, get a voodoo doll, etc, knock yourself out. None of these have been shown to work in any kind of study. Personally, I wouldn't stop drinking beer if I had gout. Good luck CCC

 

[beer 30]

From my line of work, I know more about gout than anyone really should know about any subject.

The red meat/ beer thing is an easy dismissal of the cause of the disease, but lots of people eat red meat, beer and most of them don't get gout. The cause for 9 out of 10 people is impaired kidney function. There are no fixes for the kidney, so that info doesn't necessarily help people with the condition and a reason people like to latch onto diet as the cause.

Any way, I could provide tons of info that you could easily find online. Instead I'll tell you what I would do if I was in your shoes after hearing from 100's of patients and doctors. Keep a good supply of anti-inflammatories in the house (naproxen or indomethacin or prednisone if your MD allows it). At the first sign of an attack with a twinge in that toe area, take the maximum # of pills your MD allows.

On daily basis, drink plenty of water to help maximize uric acid getting out of your body. If your uric acid number from your blood test comes back between 6 and say 8.5, I wouldn't panic and just continue to monitor. If your uric acid is high (higher than 9), your MD will talk you through going on allopurinol, a once daily med to reduce uric acid which many people will take if attacks persist.

If you want to lay off the steak and shrimp, drink cherry juice, get a voodoo doll, etc, knock yourself out. None of these have been shown to work in any kind of study. Personally, I wouldn't stop drinking beer if I had gout. Good luck CCC

Look at the big brain on Brony! Who knew?

Thx for the info GB

 

[ClownCausedChaos2]

From my line of work, I know more about gout than anyone really should know about any subject.

The red meat/ beer thing is an easy dismissal of the cause of the disease, but lots of people eat red meat, beer and most of them don't get gout. The cause for 9 out of 10 people is impaired kidney function. There are no fixes for the kidney, so that info doesn't necessarily help people with the condition and a reason people like to latch onto diet as the cause.

Any way, I could provide tons of info that you could easily find online. Instead I'll tell you what I would do if I was in your shoes after hearing from 100's of patients and doctors. Keep a good supply of anti-inflammatories in the house (naproxen or indomethacin or prednisone if your MD allows it). At the first sign of an attack with a twinge in that toe area, take the maximum # of pills your MD allows.

On daily basis, drink plenty of water to help maximize uric acid getting out of your body. If your uric acid number from your blood test comes back between 6 and say 8.5, I wouldn't panic and just continue to monitor. If your uric acid is high (higher than 9), your MD will talk you through going on allopurinol, a once daily med to reduce uric acid which many people will take if attacks persist.

If you want to lay off the steak and shrimp, drink cherry juice, get a voodoo doll, etc, knock yourself out. None of these have been shown to work in any kind of study. Personally, I wouldn't stop drinking beer if I had gout. Good luck CCC

Look at the big brain on Brony! Who knew?Thx for the info GB

Agree! A lot of good information there from Brony. Funny AND smart! You're quite the catch!

Naproxyn is what my doc put me on. He told me to take it for two weeks, but wrote out a month's supply to have extras on hand in case they're ever needed. The lab result came back and my uric level was 7.1. High, but still within their "normal range".

 

[ClownCausedChaos2]

And I'm digging the title change! I am rich! Rich in Uric Acid!

 

[Brony]

Agree! A lot of good information there from Brony. Funny AND smart! You're quite the catch!

too bad I'm hung like a button.

 

[ClownCausedChaos2]

Agree! A lot of good information there from Brony. Funny AND smart! You're quite the catch!

too bad I'm hung like a button.

I knew it was too good to be true.

 

[tri-man 47]

Agree! A lot of good information there from Brony. Funny AND smart! You're quite the catch!

too bad I'm hung like a button.

But you're our button.

 

[SFBayDuck]

Ned, I was going to reference Waterlogged as well. Here are two posts by Joe Uhan over at irunfar from 2012 when the book came out that has some good insight into it. Part 1, and Part 2 (includes interview with Noakes). But his premise is that we simply need to drink water to thirst and we don't need to supplement with electrolytes as we have plenty extra on board in "storage" that the body can utilize to keep blood levels at appropriate levels - assuming we don't overdrink water.

Thanks for sharing those links. I'm glad I read those. I recall you writing about "drinking to thirst" before but it's nice to read more about it. Some of his recommendations are interesting:

Drink only to thirst.

According to Noakes and the body of research on hydration and performance, individual differences are too great to make blanket recommendations. The only gauge for fluid need is thirst; the only symptom of dehydration is thirst.

Having said that, Noakes goes on to recommend fluid intake in the range of 400-800ml per hour for athletes across all endurance events, ranging from marathon to 24-hour+ events. This value is determined from observational studies of hydration, performance, and incidence of hyponatremia. The low range is for slower, lighter runners; the high end for heavier, faster runners.

It might be worthy to define “thirst.” Clearly, severe dehydration will cause severe thirst. However, those athletes looking to stay ahead of fluid need might consider a similar notion: “If it tastes good, you need it.” Simply put: does water taste good? If so, this subjective assessment might be a more nuanced assessment of fluid need. Whether the converse (an overt absence of thirst, accompanied by a dissatisfying taste and appeal of fluid) indicates fluid satiation or excess, was not addressed by Noakes or his book.

Consumption of roughly 60g of glucose per hour during competition will improve performance.

Noakes has separately researched and reviewed studies on glucose supplementation and determined this value for greatest performance and gastrointestinal acceptance. Values upwards of 100 grams per hour have shown even greater benefit; however, this increasing sugar invites GI disturbance.

400 - 800 ml of fluid per hour (13 to 27 oz) doesn't seem like very much. In the summer, I've certainly drank on the high end (or over) of the range and I'm a lighter runner. I've occasionally gotten goosebumps on long runs in the heat and/or on extended higher intensity runs. The goosebumps have been a sign that I'll have difficulty keeping pace soon. I've read this was a sign of dehydration but after reading your linked articles I wonder if it's just due to my core temperature rising due to effort regardless of hydration.

One thing that is amazing to me about EAH is reports of runners gaining weight during events. Although I'm sure it's true, I have trouble wrapping my head around that. I've drank 64 oz. of Gatorade on summer 20 mile runs and have still been down three or four pounds at the end.

Conversely, 60 grams of glucose seems like a lot. In gel form, that's about 2 per hour, right?

So in summary, I guess I need to try out drinking less water and eating more gels.

A lot of the data and studies around Exercise-Associated Hyponatremia have actually come out of Western States. Up until just a few years ago they were still pushing trying to maintain minimal weight loss, with weigh-ins at multiple aid stations throughout the race and runners being held or even pulled if they lost too much weight. But the increase in awareness of EAH has changed that, and they now look for symptoms other than weight loss or gain to determine if a runner might be overly dehydrated or experiencing the even more dangerous EAH.

Dr. Hoffman showed data from 2011 where some runners actually ended Western States with hyper-hydration (they gained what is considered an unhealthy amount of weight) and had sodium levels that were above the normal range. These runners consumed between 25 and 60 S! Caps each. Dr. Hoffman and the Western States research team no longer pull runners for weight gain (as they have in the past) but now recommend runners should stop taking salt supplementation if they have gained weight. (quote from this irunfar summary of studies presented at the WS medical conference last year)

As for fueling, yes 60g of glucose = 240 calories, so about 2 1/2 gels (most are right around 100 calories) per hour. I think that's pretty standard advice. But I think this is pretty individual in terms of both 1) needs of glucose replenishment of the runner and 2) how much a runner can process per hour. The first aspect is where the fat adaptation studies apply (see Dr. Phinney's summary of the FASTER study in that irufar link above, or if you're really interested Endurance Planet did a three-part pocast with Zach Bitter and Dr. Volek). I know some runners that can process 300-400 calories an hour with no GI issues, while others are down around 200. In ultras I aim for 200-300 per hour, but I tend to mix in some fats as well as carbs (nut butters, coconut strips, banana chips, etc), especially early on in the race. But as I've documented here I still haven't figured out how to fuel successfully beyond about 8 hours, especially in heat.

 

[MAC_32]

I never thought I'd be making this (long-winded) post after a run like I just had, but I owe a huge thank you to the 10K thread for what I just did.

4 miles, 35:03 - 8:44/8:47/8:42/8:50

For years I have struggled with the concept of a recovery run. It's arguably the biggest hurdle I've had to deal with as I've tried to become a better runner. For years, I just ran. Occasionally I'd start off slower, but I always finished with whatever I had. The only exception was the day before Saturday race day in high school, everything else? 90% or more.

After I recovered from a fat stage 8 years ago and my mind started veering away from strength training some years later because, in the end, I'm a runner; not a lifter...I found myself in here. I got razzed and criticized, rightfully so, about my training regimen because there was no recovery built in. After failing a couple of times stubbornly doing what I wanted to do I tried to adapt to the slow running style. Try, try, and try I may, but I have continued to struggle mightily to properly implement. I've tried so many different approaches I've lost track, but no matter what I did I could not get myself to want to run slow. This is the problem, want to. I can tell myself to slow down, but once I'm out there old habits die hard.

Well, I think I've finally figured it out. I woke up this morning physically exhausted. I had an intense lifting session followed by about 2 hours of yard work Thursday. I followed it up with 2 miles as hard as I could on Friday, it's all my schedule allowed for and was something I hadn't done in a while. Saturday was an 'off day,' but the family spent 2 hours at a festival/parade then walked 2 miles each way to a flea market, which involved a lot of carrying both of my kids at separate times. Needless to say, it was tiring for an 'off day.' Then Sunday I did 4 miles of hiking/hill sprinting followed up by a lifting session and capped it off with 5 100 yard wind sprints on the football field. Since it had been more than a week since a long run 8 solid miles Monday was next and then yesterday was very similar to last Thursday, an intense lifting session followed up by about 2 hours of yard work.

So, this pretty well explains why I was so tired this morning. However, unlike the other times I've been 'tired' the last few years during various training regimens, I am not achy. I feel great. I also had no interest on doing any level of intensity on today's run. 4 miles and 35 minutes later and I feel refreshed. I can't tell you how many times I've seen Ned write that good recovery run should end with you feeling refreshed. I don't think I can ever say that I have. I've gotten done and all indicators say I ran it properly, but I didn't feel how you're supposed to feel after a recovery run. I feel like #### and feel the same the next day. I think not knowing this feeling has been a big part of what's been holding me back. Now that I've actually experienced it I think I'm finally ready to take the next step.

I hope to report back Monday after successful strength training sessions tomorrow + Saturday and a quality long run Friday (12 miles?) to confirm, but I just wanted to say thank you to the 10K group. It's taken years, but your persistence has helped me finally break down that mental barrier. I'd probably still be a chronically injured 5K'er that can't figure out why he can't break 18 minutes had I not found my way in here.

 

[Ned]

Awesome, MAC! Love those light bulb moments!!

 

[Hang 10]

Encouraging run this morning. Got up before the crack of dawn, when the suck index was only a paltry 146, and knocked out 10 miles fasted. Averaged 8:30 a mile and only 154 BPM. This included a strong finish where my last mile was 7:13 and 170 BPM average. It feels like progress.

Really looking forward to a day off tomorrow and a 5K Saturday to see where I'm really at.

 

[BassNBrew]

http://www.ironcowboy.co/story/

Insanity.

 

[Nigel]

I used to be the same way Mac, treated every run as a race, partly because I couldn't wait to be done and feeling gassed at the of every run. Now I love the feeling of finishing a run and feeling like I could double what I just did.

I've been plugging along with a 5/6 mile routine on weekday mornings, varying the intensity and mixing in a track workout here and there. And a 10-ish mile run on weekends. 30+ mile weeks the last four. There's a 5k I'm going to do on 8/1. Would also like to do one sooner but can't find one that fits the schedule. Also mulling a fall marathon (philly?), will decide on that soon. At a minimum ill do the Newbury half in October.

 

[Hang 10]

What happened to your rival, Nigel? You remember that poster names chefs, I believe? I think he may have rode off into the sunset with his 2nd place age group award like John Elway.

 

[Ned]

I used to be the same way Mac, treated every run as a race, partly because I couldn't wait to be done and feeling gassed at the of every run. Now I love the feeling of finishing a run and feeling like I could double what I just did.

I've been plugging along with a 5/6 mile routine on weekday mornings, varying the intensity and mixing in a track workout here and there. And a 10-ish mile run on weekends. 30+ mile weeks the last four. There's a 5k I'm going to do on 8/1. Would also like to do one sooner but can't find one that fits the schedule. Also mulling a fall marathon (philly?), will decide on that soon. At a minimum ill do the Newbury half in October.

Me and comfortably numb are signed up for the half. pbm is contemplating the full.

 

[Ned]

http://www.ironcowboy.co/story/

Insanity.

My brain can't process the thought of a single full iron man, let alone this insanity. Wow.

 

[ClownCausedChaos2]

Feeling better this morning, foot is continuing to improve. At this time, I don't see any reason to miss the 5K on Saturday.

I'm familiar with the route, having run it last year for a different 5K event (it's a popular local spot for charity 5Ks). It's a predominantly flat course with one steep hill. Last year's time was 27:56 and I remember being agitated after I finished, because I felt that I still had more left in the tank. Last year was my first year running 5ks and this course was the second one that I had run, so I was still feeling them out.

Another year of running under my belt and my familiarity of the course has me confident that I have a real shot at setting a new PR (26:36).

 

[ClownCausedChaos2]

http://www.ironcowboy.co/story/

Insanity.

My brain can't process the thought of a single full iron man, let alone this insanity. Wow.

The physical toll that would have on your body cannot be healthy, right?

 

[pbm107]

I used to be the same way Mac, treated every run as a race, partly because I couldn't wait to be done and feeling gassed at the of every run. Now I love the feeling of finishing a run and feeling like I could double what I just did.

I've been plugging along with a 5/6 mile routine on weekday mornings, varying the intensity and mixing in a track workout here and there. And a 10-ish mile run on weekends. 30+ mile weeks the last four. There's a 5k I'm going to do on 8/1. Would also like to do one sooner but can't find one that fits the schedule. Also mulling a fall marathon (philly?), will decide on that soon. At a minimum ill do the Newbury half in October.

Me and comfortably numb are signed up for the half. pbm is contemplating the full.

I just signed up for the full.

 

[worrierking]

MAC discovers the recovery run, the pace of which would be a tempo run for me!

PT says I can run next week. I hope she is right.

 

[Sand]

http://www.ironcowboy.co/story/

Insanity.

My brain can't process the thought of a single full iron man, let alone this insanity. Wow.

Guy from here is currently on the course for RAAM. End of 2nd day about 600 miles in (Started near San Diego at noon Tuesday and he's in Flagstaff now). As much as I see these crazy things people do RAAM is at the top - IMO the hardest race in the world, bar none.

He's in about 10th place right now, but stopped during the day yesterday when the thermometer hit 118. Now that it's getting cooler and hillier I expect him to start leapfrogging people. His typical training rides around here were 250 miles a day with 20k ft. of climbing.

 

[AAABatteries]

Ok, so it's confirmed - I'm an idiot. This is embarrassing but a good thing.

Swam during lunch and started talking to a guy swimming laps next to me. After talking for a little while I realize I've been swimming the wrong distances for a half-mile and mile. The problem wasn't simple math but rather a poor memory. I had in my head that 84 laps was a mile but it's really a 1.2 mile swim. So, as of late I've been swimming .6 miles mostly with a couple of 1.2 miles mixed. in. I'm sure the guy thought I was an idiot and with good reason.

tl;dr AAA is stupid but maybe a little more fit than he thought.

 

[FUBAR]

Meanwhile in Fayetteville, 170SI

 

[Cold Dead Hands]

I haven't been running in two weeks. Went on vacation in Dominican Republic at an all inclusive and couldn't make myself work out there. So I play softball tonight and will jump back in with a slow 3 miler tomorrow. God have mercy on my soul.

 

[Ned]

http://www.ironcowboy.co/story/

Insanity.

My brain can't process the thought of a single full iron man, let alone this insanity. Wow.

Guy from here is currently on the course for RAAM. End of 2nd day about 600 miles in (Started near San Diego at noon Tuesday and he's in Flagstaff now). As much as I see these crazy things people do RAAM is at the top - IMO the hardest race in the world, bar none.

He's in about 10th place right now, but stopped during the day yesterday when the thermometer hit 118. Now that it's getting cooler and hillier I expect him to start leapfrogging people. His typical training rides around here were 250 miles a day with 20k ft. of climbing.

WTF How does he have a prostate left?

 

[Ned]

Ok, so it's confirmed - I'm an idiot. This is embarrassing but a good thing.

Swam during lunch and started talking to a guy swimming laps next to me. After talking for a little while I realize I've been swimming the wrong distances for a half-mile and mile. The problem wasn't simple math but rather a poor memory. I had in my head that 84 laps was a mile but it's really a 1.2 mile swim. So, as of late I've been swimming .6 miles mostly with a couple of 1.2 miles mixed. in. I'm sure the guy thought I was an idiot and with good reason.

tl;dr AAA is stupid but maybe a little more fit than he thought.

At least it wasn't the other way around and you were going shorter than you thought.

 

[Sand]

http://www.ironcowboy.co/story/

Insanity.

My brain can't process the thought of a single full iron man, let alone this insanity. Wow.

Guy from here is currently on the course for RAAM. End of 2nd day about 600 miles in (Started near San Diego at noon Tuesday and he's in Flagstaff now). As much as I see these crazy things people do RAAM is at the top - IMO the hardest race in the world, bar none.

He's in about 10th place right now, but stopped during the day yesterday when the thermometer hit 118. Now that it's getting cooler and hillier I expect him to start leapfrogging people. His typical training rides around here were 250 miles a day with 20k ft. of climbing.

WTF How does he have a prostate left?

I think it's made of brass.

Meanwhile in Fayetteville, 170SI

Going out biking in 165SI this afternoon. Will lose weight, anyway.

 

[SFBayDuck]

Meanwhile in Fayetteville, 170SI

Going out biking in 165SI this afternoon. Will lose weight, anyway.

All winter in this thread "it's too cold/snowy/icy" and then all summer "it's too suck index-y"! Does the weather just suck everywhere in this country other than the West Coast?

 

[Cold Dead Hands]

Meanwhile in Fayetteville, 170SI

Going out biking in 165SI this afternoon. Will lose weight, anyway.

All winter in this thread "it's too cold/snowy/icy" and then all summer "it's too suck index-y"! Does the weather just suck everywhere in this country other than the West Coast?

Yes.

 

[Hang 10]

Honestly I don't hate training in hot weather. I prefer it to winter. Get a nice tan. Wardrobe decisions are simple. Racing in it sucks though.

 

[Ned]

Meanwhile in Fayetteville, 170SI

Going out biking in 165SI this afternoon. Will lose weight, anyway.

All winter in this thread "it's too cold/snowy/icy" and then all summer "it's too suck index-y"! Does the weather just suck everywhere in this country other than the West Coast?

Show off!

 

[SFBayDuck]

Meanwhile in Fayetteville, 170SI

Going out biking in 165SI this afternoon. Will lose weight, anyway.

All winter in this thread "it's too cold/snowy/icy" and then all summer "it's too suck index-y"! Does the weather just suck everywhere in this country other than the West Coast?

Show off!

Of I've run in my share of crap (see 85 degrees and forest-fire smoke for a 100 miler), and when I finally do get into Western States I'll likely be dealing with the typical 100+ degree still air down in The Canyons. But we just don't have to deal with those extremes on the West Coast in general that the rest of the country seems to.

Of course at some point we'll slide off the continent into The Pacific, so there's that.....

 

[MAC_32]

Honestly I don't hate training in hot weather. I prefer it to winter. Get a nice tan. Wardrobe decisions are simple. Racing in it sucks though.

My only problem is I sweat so much that I inevitably kill my ear buds at some point every summer.

 

[Sand]

Meanwhile in Fayetteville, 170SI

Going out biking in 165SI this afternoon. Will lose weight, anyway.

All winter in this thread "it's too cold/snowy/icy" and then all summer "it's too suck index-y"! Does the weather just suck everywhere in this country other than the West Coast?

For the record I didn't ##### much about winter - pretty mild here (unlike last year). Right now we have that tropical depression pinning a high pressure system over us and we're just baking. It really is tough out there. 150SI is very typical for here. The 165-170 we have now is unusual.

 

[Sand]

Honestly I don't hate training in hot weather. I prefer it to winter. Get a nice tan. Wardrobe decisions are simple. Racing in it sucks though.

My only problem is I sweat so much that I inevitably kill my ear buds at some point every summer.

I have yet to kill my Yurbuds and I sweat a bunch.

 

[FUBAR]

Meanwhile in Fayetteville, 170SI

Going out biking in 165SI this afternoon. Will lose weight, anyway.

All winter in this thread "it's too cold/snowy/icy" and then all summer "it's too suck index-y"! Does the weather just suck everywhere in this country other than the West Coast?

For the record I didn't ##### much about winter - pretty mild here (unlike last year). Right now we have that tropical depression pinning a high pressure system over us and we're just baking. It really is tough out there. 150SI is very typical for here. The 165-170 we have now is unusual.

Headed out now for a trail run at 163si, hopefully the trail makes it better.

If not, I'll cross a creek a few times and might find myself in it.

 

[FUBAR]

Headed out now for a trail run at 163si, hopefully the trail makes it better.

If not, I'll cross a creek a few times and might find myself in it.

Slow, but one of the more enjoyable runs lately.

85 minutes, 148 bpm, 9 miles, which included a straight (75 degree type cliff) uphill climb, almost getting run over by a train (glad I looked up after climbing the hill), running up a bridge to an overpass, and helping some dude push his piece of #### car uphill after it stalled.

 

[SFBayDuck]

Headed out now for a trail run at 163si, hopefully the trail makes it better.

If not, I'll cross a creek a few times and might find myself in it.

Slow, but one of the more enjoyable runs lately.

85 minutes, 148 bpm, 9 miles, which included a straight (75 degree type cliff) uphill climb, almost getting run over by a train (glad I looked up after climbing the hill), running up a bridge to an overpass, and helping some dude push his piece of #### car uphill after it stalled.

Now that's a run, with some excellent x-training thrown in.

 

[SFBayDuck]

I've just been chugging along, more just playing on the trails than much focused training. Physically everything is back to normal after my last race, and while I haven't had any long runs since, I do have a handful of good 1:45-2:15 runs under my belt. I've also started some hill repeats - 30 seconds up about 20% grade at around 90% effort with a full 2 minute recovery. I did six the first time and eight the second, and will do ten each time going forward. I'll get back to my longer uphill tempo efforts over the next few weeks as well, and start to get back to my weekend 4-5 hour runs as I target a late September 100 miler.

 

[FUBAR]

I've just been chugging along, more just playing on the trails than much focused training. Physically everything is back to normal after my last race, and while I haven't had any long runs since, I do have a handful of good 1:45-2:15 runs under my belt. I've also started some hill repeats - 30 seconds up about 20% grade at around 90% effort with a full 2 minute recovery. I did six the first time and eight the second, and will do ten each time going forward. I'll get back to my longer uphill tempo efforts over the next few weeks as well, and start to get back to my weekend 4-5 hour runs as I target a late September 100 miler.

Do you find keeping yourself in zone 2 or MAF to be really tough on trails? I know it's partly the hills and mostly the uneven terrain but does it get easier to stay steady or is it even worth focusing on?

 

[SFBayDuck]

I've just been chugging along, more just playing on the trails than much focused training. Physically everything is back to normal after my last race, and while I haven't had any long runs since, I do have a handful of good 1:45-2:15 runs under my belt. I've also started some hill repeats - 30 seconds up about 20% grade at around 90% effort with a full 2 minute recovery. I did six the first time and eight the second, and will do ten each time going forward. I'll get back to my longer uphill tempo efforts over the next few weeks as well, and start to get back to my weekend 4-5 hour runs as I target a late September 100 miler.

Do you find keeping yourself in zone 2 or MAF to be really tough on trails? I know it's partly the hills and mostly the uneven terrain but does it get easier to stay steady or is it even worth focusing on?

I do find it tough to stay in MAF on trails, particularly if they're rolling. So if I'm on a focused MAF run, which for me I consider to be 133-143, I end up walking a lot of the climbs, as well as running really hard on some of the extended downs. So if I'm going to do a focused MAF run, I tend to hit a local section of pretty much flat fire road and trails that will allow me to run the whole time without having to walk. I do think it gets a little easier over time, if you stay focused on it for awhile.

That being said, I've been wearing my HRm less and less recently, just going more by feel. I know this leads to me pushing up to MAF + 10 pretty regularly on climbs, but I believe if I don't go over that and spend most of the run within a few beats of MAF then I'm still getting the desired aerobic training effect. Maybe I listen to Lucho too much, as most people probably consider that the dreaded "gray zone", but it's not like I'm going out to run 8 miles at 155.

 

[FUBAR]

I've just been chugging along, more just playing on the trails than much focused training. Physically everything is back to normal after my last race, and while I haven't had any long runs since, I do have a handful of good 1:45-2:15 runs under my belt. I've also started some hill repeats - 30 seconds up about 20% grade at around 90% effort with a full 2 minute recovery. I did six the first time and eight the second, and will do ten each time going forward. I'll get back to my longer uphill tempo efforts over the next few weeks as well, and start to get back to my weekend 4-5 hour runs as I target a late September 100 miler.

Do you find keeping yourself in zone 2 or MAF to be really tough on trails? I know it's partly the hills and mostly the uneven terrain but does it get easier to stay steady or is it even worth focusing on?

I do find it tough to stay in MAF on trails, particularly if they're rolling. So if I'm on a focused MAF run, which for me I consider to be 133-143, I end up walking a lot of the climbs, as well as running really hard on some of the extended downs. So if I'm going to do a focused MAF run, I tend to hit a local section of pretty much flat fire road and trails that will allow me to run the whole time without having to walk. I do think it gets a little easier over time, if you stay focused on it for awhile.

That being said, I've been wearing my HRm less and less recently, just going more by feel. I know this leads to me pushing up to MAF + 10 pretty regularly on climbs, but I believe if I don't go over that and spend most of the run within a few beats of MAF then I'm still getting the desired aerobic training effect. Maybe I listen to Lucho too much, as most people probably consider that the dreaded "gray zone", but it's not like I'm going out to run 8 miles at 155.

Thanks.

But to the bolded, why not?

 

[SFBayDuck]

I've just been chugging along, more just playing on the trails than much focused training. Physically everything is back to normal after my last race, and while I haven't had any long runs since, I do have a handful of good 1:45-2:15 runs under my belt. I've also started some hill repeats - 30 seconds up about 20% grade at around 90% effort with a full 2 minute recovery. I did six the first time and eight the second, and will do ten each time going forward. I'll get back to my longer uphill tempo efforts over the next few weeks as well, and start to get back to my weekend 4-5 hour runs as I target a late September 100 miler.

Do you find keeping yourself in zone 2 or MAF to be really tough on trails? I know it's partly the hills and mostly the uneven terrain but does it get easier to stay steady or is it even worth focusing on?

I do find it tough to stay in MAF on trails, particularly if they're rolling. So if I'm on a focused MAF run, which for me I consider to be 133-143, I end up walking a lot of the climbs, as well as running really hard on some of the extended downs. So if I'm going to do a focused MAF run, I tend to hit a local section of pretty much flat fire road and trails that will allow me to run the whole time without having to walk. I do think it gets a little easier over time, if you stay focused on it for awhile.

That being said, I've been wearing my HRm less and less recently, just going more by feel. I know this leads to me pushing up to MAF + 10 pretty regularly on climbs, but I believe if I don't go over that and spend most of the run within a few beats of MAF then I'm still getting the desired aerobic training effect. Maybe I listen to Lucho too much, as most people probably consider that the dreaded "gray zone", but it's not like I'm going out to run 8 miles at 155.

Thanks.

But to the bolded, why not?

I'd love for you HR experts to chime in here, but my understanding is that for me running at 155 doesn't really help with anything as it doesn't hit any real training zone. It's too hard for aerobic development, but too easy for tempo work. So I run my aerobic runs in that MAF (up to +10) zone of 133-153, with a focus on keeping it down in the low 140s for the majority of the time. Then when I occasionally go do tempo work I'm at 160-170. Hill or speed work would likely be 170+, if I was doing it long enough for the HR to get up to that point - and I'm really treating that not as speed work but strength and running economy work.

I'm basing my loose "zones" on my ME testing from last year which showed that from 134-149 I'm at 83-66% fat burning (which is where I need to be for my chosen race distances), my crossover point is at 156, and to work my anaerobic/carb burning zones I need to be up in the 160s. Again, my understanding is that running in the 150s, for me, isn't an effective way to stress the appropriate systems to maximize training effect.

 

[Sand]

Headed out now for a trail run at 163si, hopefully the trail makes it better.

If not, I'll cross a creek a few times and might find myself in it.

Slow, but one of the more enjoyable runs lately.

85 minutes, 148 bpm, 9 miles, which included a straight (75 degree type cliff) uphill climb, almost getting run over by a train (glad I looked up after climbing the hill), running up a bridge to an overpass, and helping some dude push his piece of #### car uphill after it stalled.

Also had a great 2 hour ride. Very hot, but legs were there - 175w avg, 227 normalized. This is on par with other rides, none of which were in these conditions. My power tracking program says I'm currently holding the highest training load on my bike ever. Feels pretty good. Still too fat, though.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Honestly I don't hate training in hot weather. I prefer it to winter. Get a nice tan. Wardrobe decisions are simple. Racing in it sucks though.

My only problem is I sweat so much that I inevitably kill my ear buds at some point every summer.

I have yet to kill my Yurbuds and I sweat a bunch.

i sweat with the best of them and I second this.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Very slow 3 mile run this morning. Felt good. Will do another very slow run tomorrow and then a few days off for vacation.

 

[FUBAR]

I've just been chugging along, more just playing on the trails than much focused training. Physically everything is back to normal after my last race, and while I haven't had any long runs since, I do have a handful of good 1:45-2:15 runs under my belt. I've also started some hill repeats - 30 seconds up about 20% grade at around 90% effort with a full 2 minute recovery. I did six the first time and eight the second, and will do ten each time going forward. I'll get back to my longer uphill tempo efforts over the next few weeks as well, and start to get back to my weekend 4-5 hour runs as I target a late September 100 miler.

Do you find keeping yourself in zone 2 or MAF to be really tough on trails? I know it's partly the hills and mostly the uneven terrain but does it get easier to stay steady or is it even worth focusing on?

I do find it tough to stay in MAF on trails, particularly if they're rolling. So if I'm on a focused MAF run, which for me I consider to be 133-143, I end up walking a lot of the climbs, as well as running really hard on some of the extended downs. So if I'm going to do a focused MAF run, I tend to hit a local section of pretty much flat fire road and trails that will allow me to run the whole time without having to walk. I do think it gets a little easier over time, if you stay focused on it for awhile.

That being said, I've been wearing my HRm less and less recently, just going more by feel. I know this leads to me pushing up to MAF + 10 pretty regularly on climbs, but I believe if I don't go over that and spend most of the run within a few beats of MAF then I'm still getting the desired aerobic training effect. Maybe I listen to Lucho too much, as most people probably consider that the dreaded "gray zone", but it's not like I'm going out to run 8 miles at 155.

Thanks.But to the bolded, why not?

I'd love for you HR experts to chime in here, but my understanding is that for me running at 155 doesn't really help with anything as it doesn't hit any real training zone. It's too hard for aerobic development, but too easy for tempo work. So I run my aerobic runs in that MAF (up to +10) zone of 133-153, with a focus on keeping it down in the low 140s for the majority of the time. Then when I occasionally go do tempo work I'm at 160-170. Hill or speed work would likely be 170+, if I was doing it long enough for the HR to get up to that point - and I'm really treating that not as speed work but strength and running economy work.

I'm basing my loose "zones" on my ME testing from last year which showed that from 134-149 I'm at 83-66% fat burning (which is where I need to be for my chosen race distances), my crossover point is at 156, and to work my anaerobic/carb burning zones I need to be up in the 160s. Again, my understanding is that running in the 150s, for me, isn't an effective way to stress the appropriate systems to maximize training effect.

Agreed with all. I just meant that without the monitor are you sure you're not hitting 155? I found myself edging over 150 without realizing it. Without the monitor I think it's very likely that I would have been in the 150s without knowing it, partly due to the heat.

 

[Ned]

I've just been chugging along, more just playing on the trails than much focused training. Physically everything is back to normal after my last race, and while I haven't had any long runs since, I do have a handful of good 1:45-2:15 runs under my belt. I've also started some hill repeats - 30 seconds up about 20% grade at around 90% effort with a full 2 minute recovery. I did six the first time and eight the second, and will do ten each time going forward. I'll get back to my longer uphill tempo efforts over the next few weeks as well, and start to get back to my weekend 4-5 hour runs as I target a late September 100 miler.

Do you find keeping yourself in zone 2 or MAF to be really tough on trails? I know it's partly the hills and mostly the uneven terrain but does it get easier to stay steady or is it even worth focusing on?

I do find it tough to stay in MAF on trails, particularly if they're rolling. So if I'm on a focused MAF run, which for me I consider to be 133-143, I end up walking a lot of the climbs, as well as running really hard on some of the extended downs. So if I'm going to do a focused MAF run, I tend to hit a local section of pretty much flat fire road and trails that will allow me to run the whole time without having to walk. I do think it gets a little easier over time, if you stay focused on it for awhile.

That being said, I've been wearing my HRm less and less recently, just going more by feel. I know this leads to me pushing up to MAF + 10 pretty regularly on climbs, but I believe if I don't go over that and spend most of the run within a few beats of MAF then I'm still getting the desired aerobic training effect. Maybe I listen to Lucho too much, as most people probably consider that the dreaded "gray zone", but it's not like I'm going out to run 8 miles at 155.

Thanks.

But to the bolded, why not?

I'd love for you HR experts to chime in here, but my understanding is that for me running at 155 doesn't really help with anything as it doesn't hit any real training zone. It's too hard for aerobic development, but too easy for tempo work. So I run my aerobic runs in that MAF (up to +10) zone of 133-153, with a focus on keeping it down in the low 140s for the majority of the time. Then when I occasionally go do tempo work I'm at 160-170. Hill or speed work would likely be 170+, if I was doing it long enough for the HR to get up to that point - and I'm really treating that not as speed work but strength and running economy work.

I'm basing my loose "zones" on my ME testing from last year which showed that from 134-149 I'm at 83-66% fat burning (which is where I need to be for my chosen race distances), my crossover point is at 156, and to work my anaerobic/carb burning zones I need to be up in the 160s. Again, my understanding is that running in the 150s, for me, isn't an effective way to stress the appropriate systems to maximize training effect.

I think the biggest factor in all the grey zone talk is recovery time. You're pushing your body harder into a less efficient zone and won't recover as quickly as if you ran in zone 1. It's a double edged sword.

 

[Hang 10]

Duck, running the kinda elevation you do, it would be madness to try stay in same zone constantly. I can't even imagine how frustrating it would be to try.

Maybe I'm just saying this because I sorta bailed on the HR training recently but I now see the heart rate monitor is just another measuring tool. It should not be the ONLY tool. If a run feels easy, it probably is. You don't need to constantly check your watch to figure out if that's true. I also don't like the idea of altering runs to run progressively slower as your heart rate creeps up. This is especially true of the tempo to hard efforts. I think you're doing yourself a disservice by training to slow down the harder it gets.

Lately I've just been running by feel and pace. It's too damn hot to try to stay in a crazy low zone. I'm okay creeping into the grey zone if it means maintaining my pace. Anyway, don't some experts say that you can run all the way up to 85% of your max and still get the aerobic benefit?