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Ran a 10k - Official Thread (3 Viewers)

BassNBrew said:
Anyone have thoughts on running a marathon about 2 weeks prior to a hundred?  Last cycle a back to back half and full marathon 3 weeks out was perfect.  Didn't miss a day of training or need any recovery after that.  2 weeks seems like it's cutting things tight, but find summer marathons is hard and I think the benefit/acclimation of racing in 80 degree temps prior to a summer 100 miler would be very important.
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Boy, I likely would not do that.  Two weeks out is cutting it tight to do a run of that distance IMO, let alone a race.  You could do it and I’m sure you be just fine for the 100, but I think the result could be some underlying fatigue for your 100 that you’re not fully aware of.  So while doing that marathon would likely give you a confidence boost, assuming all went well, I think there’s a far greater chance it’s a physical net negative than it is a positive.  But you’re a beast, and that I am not.  So there’s that too.

 
Really solid runs in perfect conditions yesterday and today have me even more pissed off about Carmel and Boston. I feel like I missed an opportunity to do something really special... :kicksrock:

 
gruecd said:
Really solid runs in perfect conditions yesterday and today have me even more pissed off about Carmel and Boston. I feel like I missed an opportunity to do something really special... :kicksrock:
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It sucks I hear you but there are worse spots to be in that being in the best shape of your life. You have a heck an opportunity to build on it and do special things in the fall season. 

 
Saw money on my run for the first time ever. Running on the sidewalk along a main street and there's a $20 bill just lying there. No one around, and it's about 8:30am.

Do you pick it up?

 
SteelCurtain said:
Official time – 3:16:41 …. Average pace of 7:30/mile

Qualified for 2020 Boston Marathon by 3 minutes and 19 seconds.
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On a pretty tough day, you gutted out a Boston Marathon qualifier. That's pretty incredible in itself. Congrats! :headbang:

 
gruecd said:
Really solid runs in perfect conditions yesterday and today have me even more pissed off about Carmel and Boston. I feel like I missed an opportunity to do something really special... :kicksrock:
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Here's the thing, at least from an outsiders view. You DID do something special - you ran two marathons in a two week span and did pretty damn good in both of them.

I know this is not up to your expectations - that's what makes you a great runner. You don't settle for just OK. (jeez, I sound like an AT&T commercial). But the point is, you had rough conditions on both days, were smart enough to back it off in Carmel (and still ran a freaking 3:07), then gutted out Boston on a day that weather wise is just not in your wheelhouse.

I'm proud of your accomplishment.  It's cool for a guy like me to see that play out in real time. And also it's cool to see that you expect so much of yourself that a "loss" to you is seen as a "victory" for others.

That's why you are a winner in my book.

 
gianmarco said:
Saw money on my run for the first time ever. Running on the sidewalk along a main street and there's a $20 bill just lying there. No one around, and it's about 8:30am.

Do you pick it up?
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Of course.  I picked up $1 once on a running path.

Another time I saw a purse hanging out from under a door of a car parked on the street at around 7:00 in the morning of a weekday.  The purse was unzipped and I could see money sticking out of the wallet.  I left that alone.

 
ChiefD said:
Here's the thing, at least from an outsiders view. You DID do something special - you ran two marathons in a two week span and did pretty damn good in both of them.

I know this is not up to your expectations - that's what makes you a great runner. You don't settle for just OK. (jeez, I sound like an AT&T commercial). But the point is, you had rough conditions on both days, were smart enough to back it off in Carmel (and still ran a freaking 3:07), then gutted out Boston on a day that weather wise is just not in your wheelhouse.

I'm proud of your accomplishment.  It's cool for a guy like me to see that play out in real time. And also it's cool to see that you expect so much of yourself that a "loss" to you is seen as a "victory" for others.

That's why you are a winner in my book.
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Thanks, buddy. :thumbup:

 
Tried simulating marathon day today.  Took 2x Beet Juice shots an hour before I started running.  1x Huma Strawberry 10 minutes before.

Plan was to run just a hair faster than my MP (my real MP, not fake/aggressive the MP I use for training) -- 5:40/km (9:07/mi).  And I did that, coming in at an average of 5:35/km (8:57/mi).

I could tell I had something in my stomach for the first 10K or so and it was a little uncomfortable, but not horrible.  Kept my HR really low (around 130).

After 10K I took another gel (Huma Strawberry).  Took me almost a full km to consume the thing while running.  Still didn't like the feeling in my gut, but not enough discomfort to impact my running.

Of course after 20K I had to poop.  Not really gel-related, just my usual issues.  So I took care of that at a gas station.

Just after that pit stop I took another gel.  This time the Huma Lemonade w/caffeine.  This didn't sit well.  Not to the point of vomiting but it was much more uncomfortable than the first two and lasted for the rest of the run.  A bit of concern there.

I didn't have anything to drink on the run and that could have impacted things as well (not that I ever drink anyway, but perhaps gels with no water is a bad approach).

Anyways, overall the run went reasonably well.  HR averaged 133 (!) and only got above 140 on hills.  Legs are totally shot, though.  Getting out of the shower there was some old-man hobbling so I took the dog out to see if I could walk it off.  Walk was fine but legs still bad.  Pretty sure if today was marathon day I would have failed my "no walking" goal.  Cardio in great shape but muscles not so much.  A bit of concern there.

On marathon day I'll take the beet juice shots a full 2 hours before the race.  And consume water with gels.  Not sure there's much more I can change.  Definitely open to suggestions from you pros if you have any.  Only two more runs above 20K between now and the big day.

 
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@Zasada That HR for marathon pace is exceptionally low.  Didn’t you average much higher in Houston? I’d be shocked if you couldn’t finish without walking if you stay in the 130s. Don’t underestimate the value of fresh legs the taper gives you.

They say you are supposed to drink water after gels.  You should try that on another long run.

 
Juxtatarot said:
@Zasada That HR for marathon pace is exceptionally low.  Didn’t you average much higher in Houston? I’d be shocked if you couldn’t finish without walking if you stay in the 130s. Don’t underestimate the value of fresh legs the taper gives you.

They say you are supposed to drink water after gels.  You should try that on another long run.
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Yeah, but in Houston I opened the first 30K at 5:10/km (8:19/mi).  HR was well above 140 in the first 5K and peaked at 160 when the wheels fell off.  Because I was stupid.

Like you noted in an earlier post, the effort at 140 now feels like what my effort used to be at 150.  That said, I'm really hoping to stay below 140 for the first 30K this time around and have some gas left for the last 10K to up the pace a touch. 

And hopefully you're right about the fresh legs.  While the hike on Friday (scheduled day off) was incredible for my mental well-being, the quads today were still a little sore from that.

 
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Oh I should have snapped a photo but I was involved in a standoff today on the pathway near the river. 

Me vs cobra chicken. 

He thought he was a BMF on his FootballGanders message board but his wing flapping and hissing couldn't keep me from breaking stride. So just before I was on top of him, he moved off the path and let me pass.

WHO'S THE BMF NOW?!?!?

 
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Zasada said:
On marathon day I'll take the beet juice shots a full 2 hours before the race.  And consume water with gels.  Not sure there's much more I can change.  Definitely open to suggestions from you pros if you have any.  Only two more runs above 20K between now and the big day.
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Only recommendation is to keep practicing in your next two long runs.

And yes, water with gels.

 
Zasada said:
I didn't have anything to drink on the run and that could have impacted things as well (not that I ever drink anyway)
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Zasada said:
Yeah, but in Houston I opened the first 30K at 5:10/km (8:19/mi).  HR was well above 140 in the first 5K and peaked at 160 when the wheels fell off.  Because I was stupid.
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I wonder if there is also some correlation to these two things for your marathon in Houston. If you are truly not drinking anything on these long runs and races, you are missing a huge element in my opinion.

Your body is using so many fluids and calories on these runs, that it seems to almost be a must to at least take some water or Gatorade during a marathon.

 
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gruecd said:
Really solid runs in perfect conditions yesterday and today have me even more pissed off about Carmel and Boston. I feel like I missed an opportunity to do something really special... :kicksrock:
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I see both sides. I know for a fact, if I was in your situation, I’d be pissed off as well. But, I agree with everyone else, you’re in amazing shape and healthy. You can’t ask for much more than that. I’d take that any day over 2 great races. Would I like to have it all? Absolutely. We all know you’re capable of so much more than what you did. It sucks we can’t control good days and bad days. Just keep dominating and use those 2 races as motivation. I think with those 2 bad experiences and your current fitness, you’re on the verge of something really special. 

 
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tri-man 47 said:
@TripleThreat , I've been in touch with the contact whose info you shared with me regarding the fundraising for the Marine Corps Marathon on 10/27.  I also got Mrs. Tri to buy into the idea.  So we're moving ahead!!!  I looked at the course, which of course has me totally psyched up.

Depending on your viewpoint, guys, start saving/hiding money.   :D
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Nice!!   MCM was my first and only full marathon.  Btw - Mrs APK says hi

 
Zasada said:
Tried simulating marathon day today.
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Great idea to demo the pre and during race nutrition (take water next time as mentioned). Shouldnt this have been at long run pace instead of ~MP pace, maybe I’m just confused by your 2nd paragraph?  If you are planning for +/- 9:00 minute miles on raceday, (cue Strava stalk) I’m not seeing MP work around those paces and it appears your easy runs tend to be that pace.  Aside from being longer, this run looks a lot like your easy runs pace/hr wise which tells me those easy runs are too fast.  2 or 3 more weeks of workouts right?  Which you appear to be doing well below 9:00min/mile.  I see you’re intentionally being conservative on goal pace based on Houston - really dialing your paces / HR response in these last few weeks is going to have to you super ready to crush raceday. 

 
bushdocda said:
Great idea to demo the pre and during race nutrition (take water next time as mentioned). Shouldnt this have been at long run pace instead of ~MP pace, maybe I’m just confused by your 2nd paragraph?  If you are planning for +/- 9:00 minute miles on raceday, (cue Strava stalk) I’m not seeing MP work around those paces and it appears your easy runs tend to be that pace.  Aside from being longer, this run looks a lot like your easy runs pace/hr wise which tells me those easy runs are too fast.  2 or 3 more weeks of workouts right?  Which you appear to be doing well below 9:00min/mile.  I see you’re intentionally being conservative on goal pace based on Houston - really dialing your paces / HR response in these last few weeks is going to have to you super ready to crush raceday. 
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Yeah my whole pacing setup is confusing.  And it all rolls back to a quote I saw on Luke Humprey Running (whom I paid for my custom training plan) which fits me perfectly:

"What I have noticed is that the grey area for prescribing paces occurs about that 4 hour goal mark. This is where things get a little blurry. At this point, runners will sometimes be running their easy runs faster than what their goal marathon pace is. Why? For most folks, their general endurance is going to be their limiting factor." 

This. Is. Exactly. Me.

So in order to make strength and speed workouts meaningful, I set up all my paces based on a "fake" MP of about 5:20/km.  That makes my long run pace about the same as my "real" MP.  So today's run was prescribed as a long run which was a great opportunity for me to simulate the marathon since it's the same as my real MP.

My easy runs (LHR says to run them at an easy or moderate pace) started around 5:50/km but as I built fitness I found that I could run faster at the same HR.  Reading Luke's book, easy runs are meant to stay solidly in aerobic territory and build up the ability to burn fat, so I found I could keep my HR in MAF territory but increase my pace over time.

Now my easy runs are effectively the same pace as my "real" MP, if not a bit faster.

It all goes back to that quote above.  I'm running all my easy & long runs at almost the same pace now, and my strength/speed workouts are run at my fake MP-10, or my 10K pace.

Such a mess but at the end of the day I think my biggest hurdle/concern is just general endurance.  

 
gianmarco said:
I wouldn't be surprised if your "endurance" concerns are nothing more than fueling and hydration issues. 
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Yes that thought has crossed my mind.  Houston's failure could have just boiled down to a) running too fast; and b) not having a proper fueling strategy.

I'm absolutely positive "a" was a/the factor.  And need to figure out "b" (which was part of today's experiment).

 
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gianmarco said:
@SFBayDuck will tell you that you DEFINITELY need to take the gels with water.
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gianmarco said:
I wouldn't be surprised if your "endurance" concerns are nothing more than fueling and hydration issues. 
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Not to be blunt, @Zasada, but you're doing it wrong (sorry, one of my favorite memes)!  When you don't take a couple of sips of fluid with a gel your gut has to pull water in to it from outside so it can be absorbed properly.  If you're also not drinking much fluid in general during your long efforts, it's a double whammy of dehydration that's likely limiting your potential.

What you're doing right, obviously, is practicing.  In-race nutrition and hydration really is the most individual aspect of this sport, so the more you can do to figure out what works for you in training, the better you're going to perform come race day.

 
gianmarco said:
Saw money on my run for the first time ever. Running on the sidewalk along a main street and there's a $20 bill just lying there. No one around, and it's about 8:30am.

Do you pick it up?
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There was a dime in the parking lot next to my car when I got out to run downtown today. I picked it up without thinking twice, better believe I'd take a 20 if I found it. Most I ever found on a run was a fiver laying in the road. If there was any reasonable way to find the owner, I'd return it but if it's just laying out in the open, it's going in my pocket! 

 
ChiefD said:
Here's the thing, at least from an outsiders view. You DID do something special - you ran two marathons in a two week span and did pretty damn good in both of them.

I know this is not up to your expectations - that's what makes you a great runner. You don't settle for just OK. (jeez, I sound like an AT&T commercial). But the point is, you had rough conditions on both days, were smart enough to back it off in Carmel (and still ran a freaking 3:07), then gutted out Boston on a day that weather wise is just not in your wheelhouse.

I'm proud of your accomplishment.  It's cool for a guy like me to see that play out in real time. And also it's cool to see that you expect so much of yourself that a "loss" to you is seen as a "victory" for others.

That's why you are a winner in my book.
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:goodposting:

@gruecd This is so very true. I get being bummed you didn't hit the goals you had but I hope at some point you can appreciate the accomplishments for what they are. Pretty amazing stuff out there. Totally understand it wasn't what you wanted, and that's great - shows the fire and motivation you have. But you can't let that define you.

Sulk a bit for now but realize what you actually accomplished while you are at it and keep your chin up!

 
Zasada said:
Yeah my whole pacing setup is confusing.  And it all rolls back to a quote I saw on Luke Humprey Running (whom I paid for my custom training plan) which fits me perfectly:

"What I have noticed is that the grey area for prescribing paces occurs about that 4 hour goal mark. This is where things get a little blurry. At this point, runners will sometimes be running their easy runs faster than what their goal marathon pace is. Why? For most folks, their general endurance is going to be their limiting factor." 

 This. Is. Exactly. Me.
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Thanks for the link and quote, that would have confused the #### out of me last year and it still does.  The paces chart from the book has easy pace ranging from 60-90 seconds slower than MP for all goal times. That article and your custom plan are more recent though so perhaps the guidance has evolved since the book or he’s softened on how easy easy is.  Since the point of easy runs are volume and recovery for next workout, as long as your pace isn’t detrimental to that, it’s all good. 

 
bushdocda said:
Thanks for the link and quote, that would have confused the #### out of me last year and it still does.  The paces chart from the book has easy pace ranging from 60-90 seconds slower than MP for all goal times. That article and your custom plan are more recent though so perhaps the guidance has evolved since the book or he’s softened on how easy easy is.  Since the point of easy runs are volume and recovery for next workout, as long as your pace isn’t detrimental to that, it’s all good. 
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Yeah, I think based on his HR and previous results (other than the marathon), his easy runs are the right pace. His true MP is probably much faster than what he's planning to run, but knowing his goal of not walking and not repeating his 1st effort, I get it. 

Can't wait for him to get this monkey off his back so he can crush the next one he attempts.

 
By the way, having taken about a week off to get my hip better, I just want to race almost every run right now. My legs feel so good that I go out for an easy/long run and, especially when I have my dog with me, I'll look down at my watch as it buzzes 1, 2, 3 miles in and they are done at about race pace. And then I'll check the HR and it will definitely be elevated more than intended. Kind of fun having fresh legs after just missing a few days. 

As for the hip, still not completely perfect and will talk to me a little now and then but getting better with the focused stretching and exercises for it. We will see how the next couple of weeks go but back to thinking I will have to shoot for breaking 1:40 and see how it goes. Still feels pretty ambitious but I have to where my limits are... Plus, I have this race and a 5k shortly after and then I'm not sure when my next actual race will happen. Really pretty pumped to see how it goes!

 
Zasada said:
Tried simulating marathon day today.  .
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Sorta different, but I absolutely believe the best thing I did training for my only full Ironman was doing a "metric" (meaning multiply the distances by .62), mostly under race conditions as best simulated. IIRC, 1.6 mile swim, 70 mile ride, 15 mile run, working transitions. Sucked while doing it but it made me confident before the race. 

Godspeed!

 
gruecd said:
Really solid runs in perfect conditions yesterday and today have me even more pissed off about Carmel and Boston. I feel like I missed an opportunity to do something really special... :kicksrock:
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At the risk of sounding annoyingly redundant (I’ve made a similar point here before) but this is an example of why there can be value of viewing “marathon training” as more than just preparing for one race but rather as an opportunity to set a series of PRs through tune-up races that finally culminates in the marathon.  I know you had two marathons on the schedule but with only two weeks to recover, Carmel was bound to effect Boston significantly even with backing off the pace a little.

Training for 16 or 18 weeks (or whatever) and measuring success by only one race leaves so much to risk — weather,  nutrition or GI issues, an injury, sleep problems, or even just the inexplicable bad day. Viewing it as a season with multiple race distances makes the chances for at least some success so much higher.

I realize, though, that part of my opinion on this stems from a different opinion on race successes than a lot of people have.  For you, it seems you value marathons much more than other race distances.  I don’t really get that.  I understand the difference for a new runner who is running a longer distance for the first time but not for the seasoned racer.  I view a good 5K time (relatively speaking) just as impressively as a good marathon time.  I can remember feeling more satisfied and proud of myself after several shorter race PRs than several of my marathon PRs.

 
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