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Ran a 10k - Official Thread (8 Viewers)

Oh, damn, I thought you were pictureless.  Well, I know for certain I was a red shirt while @pbm107 was still a green shirt.
I definitely was last, but that shirt may be the oldest. When I was finishing that race the announcer said here comes a runner wearing an old school Rock N Roll Philly shirt. I didn’t think it was that old, it’s from 2013. 

 
Who knew I was joining the cool kids club when I set my strava photo? I set it back in January after the flooded, cold 5k I did. It's me "flying" across a creek in my red shirt!

:pickle:  

 
I realize, though, that part of my opinion on this stems from a different opinion on race successes than a lot of people have.  For you, it seems you value marathons much more than other race distances.
I also tend to value my marathon performances more than the other distances.  I agree that marathon training is a great time to attempt PRs for shorter distances, but typically if a marathon is on the schedule that is the goal race for the season.  When I look back on the races that I am most proud of, the majority of them are marathons.

That being said I am changing things up this fall, I have a marathon on the schedule but my goal race will be a half marathon in November. My thinking is my limiting factor these days in the marathon and half is my LT pace,  and I am trying to address it through half marathon specific training.  Once I show real improvement at the half distance I will try to be more aggressive in the marathon in 2020.

 
Yeah, I think based on his HR and previous results (other than the marathon), his easy runs are the right pace. His true MP is probably much faster than what he's planning to run, but knowing his goal of not walking and not repeating his 1st effort, I get it. 

Can't wait for him to get this monkey off his back so he can crush the next one he attempts.
If there were a 3:55 or even 3:50 pacer available for this race I would totally try that.  But I have to choose between 4:00 and 3:45 and the latter is too risky (as you note, top priority is to get this monkey off my back).

 
If there were a 3:55 or even 3:50 pacer available for this race I would totally try that.  But I have to choose between 4:00 and 3:45 and the latter is too risky (as you note, top priority is to get this monkey off my back).
The others can maybe offer more on this, but do you need to have a pacer? 

I mean, if there's one available for your goal, great. But if not, why not just run your race? Set a reasonable safe goal pace, put it on your watch and go with it.

 
Thanks for the link and quote, that would have confused the #### out of me last year and it still does.  The paces chart from the book has easy pace ranging from 60-90 seconds slower than MP for all goal times. That article and your custom plan are more recent though so perhaps the guidance has evolved since the book or he’s softened on how easy easy is.  Since the point of easy runs are volume and recovery for next workout, as long as your pace isn’t detrimental to that, it’s all good. 
This was a subject of much debate in this thread a couple of months ago when I found my SoS runs were too easy.  The pace chart just didn't make sense to me.  The easy runs were way too slow and the SoS runs weren't challenging.  So I faked my MP (which, on the chart, results in a HMP pace that I actually ran in Nov) to make the easy runs less of a joke (but still easy) and the SoS runs feel like I was actually doing something.  

So now I run the easy runs by HR and during the run if I ever notice myself exerting even moderately I slow it down.  

 
The others can maybe offer more on this, but do you need to have a pacer? 

I mean, if there's one available for your goal, great. But if not, why not just run your race? Set a reasonable safe goal pace, put it on your watch and go with it.
I'm really trying to learn lessons from my prior races. 

My marathon I went out too fast, and even though I was telling myself to slow down my body kept reverting to the faster pace.

My 10K I went out too fast as well and by 7K I was having to dial it back more than I wanted.

My HM I went out faster than plan but by some miracle maintained that pace for the whole run.  It was like betting my life savings on Black 27 and winning.  Yes, the result was great but it was still a stupid thing to do.

So the biggest lesson to learn is that I have issues controlling my pace.  Thus, next marathon I will run with a pacer for the first 30-32K.

 
I'm really trying to learn lessons from my prior races. 

My marathon I went out too fast, and even though I was telling myself to slow down my body kept reverting to the faster pace.

My 10K I went out too fast as well and by 7K I was having to dial it back more than I wanted.

My HM I went out faster than plan but by some miracle maintained that pace for the whole run.  It was like betting my life savings on Black 27 and winning.  Yes, the result was great but it was still a stupid thing to do.

So the biggest lesson to learn is that I have issues controlling my pace.  Thus, next marathon I will run with a pacer for the first 30-32K.
To play contrarian, because I love to - by trying to do it on your own you will likely benefit in future races. And if successful in this race the reward will be more satisfying. If there were a pacer at GP that would be one thing, but choosing a pace slower than your abilities just to take advantage of one?

You've done the hard part, identifying the problem. Now be the problem solver. 

 
To play contrarian, because I love to - by trying to do it on your own you will likely benefit in future races. And if successful in this race the reward will be more satisfying. If there were a pacer at GP that would be one thing, but choosing a pace slower than your abilities just to take advantage of one?

You've done the hard part, identifying the problem. Now be the problem solver. 
I hear you.  That was part of my simulation on Sunday.  Could I run ~5:40/km for the whole thing and not slip into faster paces.  And I achieved that.

But I've found race day is different.  Too much adrenaline and excitement. 

Even when training, as soon as I get near another runner I find my pace creeps up ("Look at me!  I'm a BMF!").  

No question I would like the full meal deal of pacing myself to success.  But I need to be done with marathons for a while so I can focus on trails.  So I can't afford another Houston.

A perfect race for me will be running with the pacer for the first 30-32K, finding I've got (plenty of) gas left in the tank, and running the last 10K at 5:20/km (or faster).  That will have me running the whole thing and not walking (primary goal) while still beating my Houston time (secondary goal).

 
The others can maybe offer more on this, but do you need to have a pacer? 

I mean, if there's one available for your goal, great. But if not, why not just run your race? Set a reasonable safe goal pace, put it on your watch and go with it.
This was going to be my question. With the technology out there, you can have your own pacer right on your wrist. May be that a physical presence might be easier to stick to the plan, but if you have a plan and a watch and the self-discipline, you can be paced to whatever your goal will be regardless of what options there are in the race. 

The Houston race "issue" was mostly about you not really following the plan. IIRC, you went out A LOT faster than intended and it eventually caught up with you. I believe your goal then was sub 4 hours, which is a 9:07/mile pace (you have to do your own conversion! ;)  ), and, if my memory is close to right, you ran the first 1/2 of the race at something like an 8:15 or 8:20 pace +/-. That's not banking a little time here and there. 45 seconds per mile is a lot. And even with the issues at the end, you still hit the goal, just not as gracefully as you would like. 

 
So the biggest lesson to learn is that I have issues controlling my pace.  Thus, next marathon I will run with a pacer for the first 30-32K.
And that answers that. I can totally see how that can happen too. Especially recently with some of my runs. I find myself settling into a pace and just going. Yesterday I knew I was running faster than intended and my HR even told me so, but it felt so good I just kept going. 

 
I hear you.  That was part of my simulation on Sunday.  Could I run ~5:40/km for the whole thing and not slip into faster paces.  And I achieved that.

But I've found race day is different.  Too much adrenaline and excitement. 

Even when training, as soon as I get near another runner I find my pace creeps up ("Look at me!  I'm a BMF!").  

No question I would like the full meal deal of pacing myself to success.  But I need to be done with marathons for a while so I can focus on trails.  So I can't afford another Houston.

A perfect race for me will be running with the pacer for the first 30-32K, finding I've got (plenty of) gas left in the tank, and running the last 10K at 5:20/km (or faster).  That will have me running the whole thing and not walking (primary goal) while still beating my Houston time (secondary goal).
This is an interesting conversation right now because I basically just lived this whole scenario.  If you all recall, I had decided on the same type of plan as you - find the 4:00 pacer and then try and come in just under that at the end.

Well, guess what? There was no 4:00 pacer.  :lol:   

So I adjusted. I followed @Juxtatarot's suggestion from several months ago when he said something like: "just set your watch to the average pace you need and keep in there." And that's what I did. And finished sub 4:00.

Look, I know everyone is different. But if your training is on point, and you know your heart rate zones, and you stay disciplined in yourself, you can absolutely self pace this yourself. But whether you use that pacer or not, you have to execute your whole plan.

1. Nutrition

2. Hydration

3. Mental strength

Don't fall into the trap of "the pacer will do the work for me" - all three of the above elements will come into play. 

 
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The Houston race "issue" was mostly about you not really following the plan. IIRC, you went out A LOT faster than intended and it eventually caught up with you. I believe your goal then was sub 4 hours, which is a 9:07/mile pace (you have to do your own conversion! ;)  ), and, if my memory is close to right, you ran the first 1/2 of the race at something like an 8:15 or 8:20 pace +/-. That's not banking a little time here and there. 45 seconds per mile is a lot. And even with the issues at the end, you still hit the goal, just not as gracefully as you would like. 
Good memory!  This was exactly it.  The part that eats my brain is that there were dozens of occasions during that first 32K where I would look at my watch and say "you're going too fast, slow down".  And I would.  A minute later I look at my watch and I'm back at 8:20 again.  

Part of my Houston failure was running Vegas faster than plan and not having to pay a price for it.  So there was some part of me that figured running fast was OK.

Plus that early pace felt so good.  Easy, almost.  HR was saying otherwise, but effort was fine.  Until it wasn't.

Best analogy I can think of is my approach to not eating sugar/sweets.  I just don't buy them.  Willpower at the grocery store is much more effective (for me) than willpower at home.  If there's a treat in the pantry, not eating that treat is much harder than not buying it in the first place.

So using a pacer is me not buying the treat.  :)

...and then my wife comes home with a tray of brownies and I'm like  :rant:

 
I hear you.  That was part of my simulation on Sunday.  Could I run ~5:40/km for the whole thing and not slip into faster paces.  And I achieved that.

But I've found race day is different.  Too much adrenaline and excitement. 

Even when training, as soon as I get near another runner I find my pace creeps up ("Look at me!  I'm a BMF!").  

No question I would like the full meal deal of pacing myself to success.  But I need to be done with marathons for a while so I can focus on trails.  So I can't afford another Houston.

A perfect race for me will be running with the pacer for the first 30-32K, finding I've got (plenty of) gas left in the tank, and running the last 10K at 5:20/km (or faster).  That will have me running the whole thing and not walking (primary goal) while still beating my Houston time (secondary goal).
For what's it worth, SAND'ing the start isnt a new thing either. It was my M.O. til a few years ago actually. 

I dont think it's worthwhile to go through every detail of my half efforts from virgin to success. Nor my full efforts from rookie to BQ. But I find it difficult putting the feeling from those successful efforts into words. Even the BQ that ended far from smoothly. 

But lessons are learned from every race. And many here have not had a successful marathon yet - hell, I haven't.  I think it's both part of the draw to try try trying again and why it brings us to the brink of quitting. You could do everything right with the slower pace group and still fail. This race distance is just a completely different animal. But doing things my way - that's how I figured out what I did wrong last time out. I now know how I should feel from an effort perspective for the first 10 miles or so of the race. I now know how the difficult miles should feel between miles 10 and 18. I also know they all cant feel like that. But some can. Now I need to figure out miles 18-24. I think I have a better idea now though. 

So I'm not trying to strong arm you into doing things my way. I'm just asking questions and providing perspective so you can confirm what way really is your way. 

 
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So I'm not trying to strong arm you into doing things my way. I'm just asking questions and providing perspective so you can confirm what way really is your way. 
No, I love the discussion.  It makes me think/question/test my plans.  As an example, all the talk of fueling/gels in this thread gave me the motivation to go out and buy a bunch and test things on Sunday.  And I'm learning from that.  As an example, my next simulation (two weeks from yesterday) will have me running with water (need to figure out the logistics of that) to take with my gels.

Really appreciate the suggestions and lessons from prior experience!  :thanks:

 
So the biggest lesson to learn is that I have issues controlling my pace. 
That is why Hanson has so much time around/at goal pace with MP-10 runs followed by goal pace runs building in length so you have weeks of internalizing MP and time to adjust goal pace faster/slower if needed. It makes sense it would be hard to hold back the whole time time if you’re running workouts faster and easy runs faster. 

 
Pretty sure I've talked myself out of the 24-hour race idea.  The idea of doing a bunch of back-to-back long, slow training runs has zero appeal to me, as does the potential for a 2- to 4-week recovery period afterwards.  I think I'll pass...

 
Good memory!  This was exactly it.  The part that eats my brain is that there were dozens of occasions during that first 32K where I would look at my watch and say "you're going too fast, slow down".  And I would.  A minute later I look at my watch and I'm back at 8:20 again.  

Part of my Houston failure was running Vegas faster than plan and not having to pay a price for it.  So there was some part of me that figured running fast was OK.

Plus that early pace felt so good.  Easy, almost.  HR was saying otherwise, but effort was fine.  Until it wasn't.

Best analogy I can think of is my approach to not eating sugar/sweets.  I just don't buy them.  Willpower at the grocery store is much more effective (for me) than willpower at home.  If there's a treat in the pantry, not eating that treat is much harder than not buying it in the first place.

So using a pacer is me not buying the treat.  :)

...and then my wife comes home with a tray of brownies and I'm like  :rant:
We seem to be on similar paths, I think. Both of us are trying to find out what our actual potential is. When you are setting goals and smashing them, it means you don't really know what your limits are. That's not a bad thing - shows how much more you can try to find/read.

In Houston you did something I haven't yet - you found your limit. You did that by pushing at an incredible rate. It felt good and you went with it until you couldn't. But then you still showed your full BMF potential by finishing and beating the goal anyway. 

So, now that you know your limit, it should give you a hugely different perspective for this next outting. You want to push to the edge but not go over it. Knowing where the edge is is huge, IMO. Pushing a little over the goal is fine - monitor your HR, your gut, the feel but know what you can do and what you can't. If your goal is 4 hours but no walking, you can pace that yourself, IMO. There's a big difference in turning a mile or 2 at 8:45 or 8:50 and turning a half dozen at 8:20. 

 
That is why Hanson has so much time around/at goal pace with MP-10 runs followed by goal pace runs building in length so you have weeks of internalizing MP and time to adjust goal pace faster/slower if needed. It makes sense it would be hard to hold back the whole time time if you’re running workouts faster and easy runs faster. 
The issue is that I'm in Week 11 of my plan (which is a customized Hanson plan) and I'm still not feeling the pain that many of you have described at this stage of the plan.  If I was running the actual prescribed paces it would be a total joke.  I'm running 50mi/week so there's some volume there.

I really think it boils-down to me being a totally different runner at distances above 25K.  Maybe it's fueling.

As an example, I have a "strength" run scheduled for Wednesday which is 3K WU, 4x2K at MP-10 + 400m jog, 3K CD.  If I ran those intervals at my real MP-10 it wouldn't be significant at all.  I wouldn't even need the jog break in-between.  Heck, I could do the whole 16K at MP-10 and not just be fine, but run even longer.  People talk about tempo runs being tough, but they're only tough for me right now if I run them 40s/mile faster than what I plan to run the marathon at. 

:shrug:

The 27K on Sunday, on the other hand, I felt.  And I was sore.  Still am today.

 
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The issue is that I'm in Week 11 of my plan (which is a customized Hanson plan) and I'm still not feeling the pain that many of you have described at this stage of the plan.  If I was running the actual prescribed paces it would be a total joke.  I'm running 50mi/week so there's some volume there.

I really think it boils-down to me being a totally different runner at distances above 25K.  Maybe it's fueling.

As an example, I have a "strength" run scheduled for Wednesday which is 3K WU, 4x2K at MP-10 + 400m jog, 3K CD.  If I ran those intervals at my real MP-10 it wouldn't be significant at all.  I wouldn't even need the jog break in-between.  Heck, I could do the whole 16K at MP-10 and not just be fine, but run even longer.  People talk about tempo runs being tough, but they're only tough for me right now if I run them 40s/mile faster than what I plan to run the marathon at. 

:shrug:
Then adjust your MP pace goal and base your workouts off of that.

I had to adjust my goals in the opposite direction because I couldn't handle the faster paces. You are going the other direction. Now is the time to test that. You can always bring it back if necessary.

 
I know I've already said and I'm pretty sure others are thinking it as well, but if you run most of this race with a 4:00 pacer, it just feels like such a wasted opportunity.  You have so much more in you than that.

 
This was going to be my question. With the technology out there, you can have your own pacer right on your wrist. May be that a physical presence might be easier to stick to the plan, but if you have a plan and a watch and the self-discipline, you can be paced to whatever your goal will be regardless of what options there are in the race. 
@Zasada, this was going to be my suggestion. Use the virtual pacer on your Garmin to keep you in check. 

 
Pretty sure I've talked myself out of the 24-hour race idea.  The idea of doing a bunch of back-to-back long, slow training runs has zero appeal to me, as does the potential for a 2- to 4-week recovery period afterwards.  I think I'll pass...
Proactively identifying the former is more important than the latter.

I haven't done an ultra, but I hang out with several that do and the post race recovery is usually a product of under training a/o getting hurt/injured during/before the race then keep going anyway. If they actually keep up with their training (many don't!) and dont get nicked up during/before the race then recovery isn't as daunting. 

But keeping up with the training. That's the biggest hurdle. I haven't done an ultra because I have no interest in doing that right now and if I'm going to do one then I want to do it to the best of my ability. So many of these runners dont though. Which may explain why the record for this race is so soft. I'm guessing it's at least kinda technical too. Because a buddy of mine that's never ran more than 1k miles in a year and has non-running habits that meet every irish stereotype you can imagine has done several of these. And he's gone as far as hitting 100k with hours to spare in a 24 hour race and only tapped out because of bleeding feet. I dont remember what the record is but its triple digits and not by someone who looks the part. He just recreationally jogs in the woods all day every day. NTTAWWT

 
@SFBayDuck you have another race this weekend or the following, right?  
Twelve more sleeps until Miwok 100K.  So I'm already in taper mode, with a plan for one more 2 1/2 -3 hour run in the next couple of days, and other than that a bunch of shorter stuff.  The weather in the Marin Headlands is notoriously fickle so it could be rain, cold and fog, or 75+ degrees like it was yesterday.  So just in case I'll be getting back in the sauna over the next 8 days or so for a round of heat acclimation. 

 
I know I've already said and I'm pretty sure others are thinking it as well, but if you run most of this race with a 4:00 pacer, it just feels like such a wasted opportunity.  You have so much more in you than that.
It does seem like is being very conservative, but it might be a fun experience to a run a 2:00 half followed up by a 1:50.

 
Then adjust your MP pace goal and base your workouts off of that.

I had to adjust my goals in the opposite direction because I couldn't handle the faster paces. You are going the other direction. Now is the time to test that. You can always bring it back if necessary.
Yup, did that while back.  So I’m training at paces as though I’m going to run a 3:45 marathon but plan to target <4:00 come race day.

I would rather be kicking myself for the next [six] months for having run too slow a marathon (and having gas left in the tank) than failing again and having to walk. 

 
Yup, did that while back.  So I’m training at paces as though I’m going to run a 3:45 marathon but plan to target <4:00 come race day.

I would rather be kicking myself for the next [six] months for having run too slow a marathon (and having gas left in the tank) than failing again and having to walk. 
It doesn't matter what you want.  You do what we want, ok?

 
Looking at the map and elevation profile (at the bottom) of the race, at the 26K point things shift to predominantly downhill so that would be a good place to ditch the pacer and try to negative split.
It also looks like it's a downhill from the start to the 1K point.  I think that's also a good place to ditch the pacer and try to negative split.

 
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...and only tapped out because of bleeding feet.
A female friend of mine who's WON a number of ultras said this:  "I almost always get blisters under my toe nails and on my toes no matter what I do.  I just ignore them until after the race.  Unless they're causing you severe pain or limping I would just mentally focus on something else."

 
A female friend of mine who's WON a number of ultras said this:  "I almost always get blisters under my toe nails and on my toes no matter what I do.  I just ignore them until after the race.  Unless they're causing you severe pain or limping I would just mentally focus on something else."
I haven't gotten the under toenails ones, but blisters under a callus are not fun.  I remember thinking I had a rock in my shoe the first time that happened, kept stopping and taking my shoe off to try and get it out but there was nothing there.  I finally figured out it was a blister on the ball of my foot under a callus.  Good times.

 
Juxtatarot said:
At the risk of sounding annoyingly redundant (I’ve made a similar point here before) but this is an example of why there can be value of viewing “marathon training” as more than just preparing for one race but rather as an opportunity to set a series of PRs through tune-up races that finally culminates in the marathon.  I know you had two marathons on the schedule but with only two weeks to recover, Carmel was bound to effect Boston significantly even with backing off the pace a little.

Training for 16 or 18 weeks (or whatever) and measuring success by only one race leaves so much to risk — weather,  nutrition or GI issues, an injury, sleep problems, or even just the inexplicable bad day. Viewing it as a season with multiple race distances makes the chances for at least some success so much higher.

I realize, though, that part of my opinion on this stems from a different opinion on race successes than a lot of people have.  For you, it seems you value marathons much more than other race distances.  I don’t really get that.  I understand the difference for a new runner who is running a longer distance for the first time but not for the seasoned racer.  I view a good 5K time (relatively speaking) just as impressively as a good marathon time.  I can remember feeling more satisfied and proud of myself after several shorter race PRs than several of my marathon PRs.
It's pretty simple, really.  I don't really enjoy shorter races, and (relatively speaking, at least) I'm not as good at them. :shrug:

 
gianmarco said:
The others can maybe offer more on this, but do you need to have a pacer? 

I mean, if there's one available for your goal, great. But if not, why not just run your race? Set a reasonable safe goal pace, put it on your watch and go with it.
Here is why some choose to run with a pacer. 

Believe it or not, as you are stressing your mind, you are using energy that you could use to put towards physical exertion.  The benefit of the pacer is you don't have to worry about your pace.  Just run with the guy/lady who is pacing.  They do all the work and figure out the right pace.  They should help you plan for water stops.  They likely will offer some energy if you need it.  They can help you take your mind off running with stories, conversations, jokes, etc.  They also will be the motivation for you when things are really challenging in miles 20-26.2.

Admittedly, some pacers are inconsistent.  Like anything, some are better than others.  And some people jive better with each other than others. 

But pacers can help if you find a good one and just relax and use no mental energy into your race plan. 

 
Some of that sounds good... some not so much. In both of my 1/2's I've done I have ended up in conversations with people along the way. While somewhat interesting and a break from thinking about running, it was too much effort for me to concentrate on the conversation, even if I wasn't doing the talking. 

I pretty much do the same thing while running that I do while on a long car trip - I repeatedly do the calculations on when I will get to X. That's probably just the math geek in me but it's what I do. In the car, particularly on a road trip I am familiar with, I will calculate what time I will get to various landmarks. 

On my runs I do similar things - 2, 3, 4 miles into the run I will calculate and re-calculate my average pace in my head and note what time I should be seeing the next mile marker. Later on in the run I will switch to calculating and continually re-calculating the finish time while also calculating when I'll pass the next marker. 

Isn't that what everyone does?

 
Isn't that what everyone does?
Nah. Start off by showing up 2 minutes before the gun. Turn music on, but not the volume. After the gun get to my own personal space bubble as quickly as possible. Crank volume up to 11. Karaoke and fist pump with occasional high five breaks until the final mile. Turn music off and burn rubber. Cross the line, hopefully by out sprinting someone. Dry heave. Then beer. 

 
Nah. Start off by showing up 2 minutes before the gun. Turn music on, but not the volume. After the gun get to my own personal space bubble as quickly as possible. Crank volume up to 11. Karaoke and fist pump with occasional high five breaks until the final mile. Turn music off and burn rubber. Cross the line, hopefully by out sprinting someone. Dry heave. Then beer. 
This sounds like a metaphor for my marital relations as well......

 
Zasada said:
The part that eats my brain is that there were dozens of occasions during that first 32K where I would look at my watch and say "you're going too fast, slow down".  And I would.  A minute later I look at my watch and I'm back at 8:20 again.  
I've mentioned at times that for my slow pacing, which is most running, I have a slower breathing pattern.  Instead of both the inhale and exhale occurring in synch with either the left foot strike or the right foot strike (so every second step), when running slow I inhale and then exhale on the third step (so L r l R l r L r l ...).  I.e., I inhale on every other right step and exhale on every other left step.  (As a lifelong percussionist/musician, it's a 3/4 pattern instead of 2/4, and I'll let little sing-songs float through my head.)   :loco:    For marathons, I start with this pattern - along with my knowledge of pace and especially HR data - knowing that at some point mid-race, I'll be working hard enough to change to the "regular" pattern of every second step.  The slow breathing pattern keeps me running slow when I want and need to stay slow.  A nice aspect is that when I switch the pattern, I feel like I've turned on my power boosters. 

 

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