Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Exactly - it’s easy to scamper in for a TD when you’re not being touched by anyone because (again) you’re not cleared for contact.
sheesh.
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RB Derrius Guice, Free Agent (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Faust
- Start date
sheesh.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
He. Has. Not. Been. Cleared. For. Contact.
that’s not ambiguous. It means he is not a full participant.
I don’t understand why that’s a difficult concept.
He cannot possibly be a “full participant” until he’s cleared for contact.
which he has not been.
barackdhouse
Footballguy
So which is it? Damn.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Perhaps you should write the Redskins beat writers a strongly worded letter.
I'm just going by *today’s* presser that says he hasn’t been cleared for contact.
Which make a full participation in a contact sport impossible.
So unless he switched to badminton, he wasn’t a full participant. Or maybe they were practicing cone drills those days.
I dunno - I wasn’t there.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Preseason reporting is often super sketchy. If reports are coming from the team about an injured player you can be 87% sure they're BS with most teams.
I also saw earlier reports that said he was going to be ready by now and that he was itching to play football again. Maybe that was what he thought and not what reality is.
And like I said, maybe they were running cone drills or shuttle drills or walk-throughs… All of which she could’ve done and technically been a “full participant“
But being a full participant in those types of practices and being cleared for contact to play in 11 on 11 scrimmage are totally different things.
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ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
I think there must be confusion. He's not cleared for games but he's clearly in pads, hitting and getting hit and cutting. You don't stiffarm and get thumped in half speed walkthrough type settings. There's no such thing as being cleared for half contact, and he's obviously doing some contact. Obviously the drill where he gets decleated in the video isn't full speed, but he wouldn't be getting touched at all if he wasn't cleared for contact. Same with the tweet from two days ago describing him cutting twice through the defense and stiff-arming a safety...that isn't walk through or individual drill stuff.
Another tweet from today, from the team's top beat guy:
https://twitter.com/john_keim/status/1161372692320333824?s=19
"Redskins running back Derrius Guice still hasn't been cleared to play in games, coach Jay Gruden said. Guice, coming off a torn ACL suffered last preseason, has participated in practices, including the full-team work. Gruden said, "He looks good--"
Maybe we're both a bit off the mark, @Hot Sauce Guy, but you specifically asserted he wasn't cutting or doing full team drills and he clearly is. So something is off about your understanding as well.
Another tweet from today, from the team's top beat guy:
https://twitter.com/john_keim/status/1161372692320333824?s=19
"Redskins running back Derrius Guice still hasn't been cleared to play in games, coach Jay Gruden said. Guice, coming off a torn ACL suffered last preseason, has participated in practices, including the full-team work. Gruden said, "He looks good--"
Maybe we're both a bit off the mark, @Hot Sauce Guy, but you specifically asserted he wasn't cutting or doing full team drills and he clearly is. So something is off about your understanding as well.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Wut?Oh yea, then we have all-pro OT Trent Williams wants the entire Medical Staff fired for him to return. Very fitting.
seriously?
What a mess.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I just know what “full contact” means, and today’s presser said he isn’t there.
maybe that was off. But it’s hard to imagine him doing all kinda stuff if his hammy isn’t right, and if he hasn’t competed his ACL rehab.
.
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
https://twitter.com/kareemcopeland/status/1160570997126434817?s=19I just know what “full contact” means, and today’s presser said he isn’t there.
maybe that was off. But it’s hard to imagine him doing all kinda stuff if his hammy isn’t right, and if he hasn’t competed his ACL rehab.
I mean...what place does stuff like this have directly from practice two days ago if he can't have contact?
I think Gruden/the roto report meant he's not cleared for the games yet. He's facing contact in practice.
Here's video:
https://twitter.com/Prestonsouth10/status/1160593145048051713?s=19
That doesn't look like they are going full-speed. What kind of idiot medical staff would clear a player for contact in practice but not in games?
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
Um, the Redskins.
It's not full-go but it's clearly allowing contact.
So they're letting him practice but saying he's not 100% for game action.
They're being cautious with their best potential weapon on offense, seemingly...but they are also the Skins. So who knows.
But that's not individual drills/cone drills only, and there's some contact. That's for sure.
Forgot this is Daniel Snyder's organization. Aren't they still paying Deion Sanders $5 Mil per season. I think his agent convinced Snyder that he could play until he was 70.
I agree with the sentiment that I would use kid gloves with this guy until he is further along in his recovery. No need to be stupid during the preseason.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
I’m not sure if you watched the video posted above. But he took a shoulder and got decked
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Which is weird for a guy who hasn’t been cleared for contact. lol
it’s all very confusing
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Maybe it’s some Hollywood special effect CGI kinda thing.
One of these years some HC is gonna go full on Patriots+ and do that ish.
Hankmoody
Footballguy
The CBA defines contact as (e.g., “live” blocking, tackling, pass rushing, bump-and-run) If a guy takes a shoulder and loses his balance and falls that doesn't fall into full contact definition, although with as blurred as that line is there's plenty of room for grievances and investigations. So yes, he can be a "full participant" in a practice if that practice doesn't have any contact drills. Those are the reports people are seeing this word used in - after-action reports of that day's activities. For example:
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/07/26/derrius-guice-opens-camp-as-a-full-participant-in-practice/
"was affirmed on Thursday when he was a full participant in Washington’s first training camp practice."
That day he was a full participant, because that day didn't have contact drills.
He has not been cleared for contact yet and he's not likely to play much in PS IMO.
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/07/26/derrius-guice-opens-camp-as-a-full-participant-in-practice/
"was affirmed on Thursday when he was a full participant in Washington’s first training camp practice."
That day he was a full participant, because that day didn't have contact drills.
He has not been cleared for contact yet and he's not likely to play much in PS IMO.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
history lesson - how to ruin a franchise
Back on topic, is it true Guice had five procedures for his torn ACL? Seems...not normal, no?
matttyl
Footballguy
Some of those were because of an infection from the first surgery I think I remember hearing.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
He went for $52/500 in a 12-team startup dynasty auction last week.
If he were fully healthy I would have expected him to go in the $80-90 range.
$52 isn’t a terrible price, but it’s also clearly more than most teams were comfortable with (he was one of the 1st players nominated & everyone still had almost a full bankroll)
Hard to say in a snake draft...I feel like in dynasty someone will always be willing to risk it for the upside in future seasons.
So as a WAG he might be back end 1st round?
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Not a doctor, but from what I understand any infection during the healing process is bad. Body spending its energy fighting the infection instead of knitting tendons & recovering from the procedure. Every subsequent surgery can be considered additional trauma & a set-back to the healing process.
Man - Guice is a fantastic RB, but it seems like more & more red flags. Plus it’s not like the ‘19 skins offense is the ‘83 skins offense. Haskins is seeming less likely the starter by the day, and Keenum shouldn’t excite anyone. From what I’ve seen, neither should Haskins at this point.
While the 2018 Giants has huge success with Barkley, they also had a top flight WR & some other pieces to open things up. And much of Barkley’s production was in short dump-offs. Oh yeah - and Barkley wasn’t coming off of a major knee injury with multiple surgeries.
For 2019 redraft (my IDP next weekend, for example) I’ve got Guice as an “avoid” along with all Redskins. Maybe I’ll miss out, but that’s a risk I can certainly live with. I can’t imagine any scenario where Guice becomes a centerpiece fantasy player & justifies a top 3 round pick for this season.
Next year I’d be much more interested.
Raptors409
Footballguy
Guice is my official 2019 risk. His ADP is dropping and people are being scared off. Have been getting him as my RB3 in every mock I've been doing. Everything says avoid, but mt guy says UPSIDE, UPSIDE, UPSIDE.
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Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Not to rain on anyone’s parade, but
1. Mocks aren’t drafts.
2. Folks who think like this will keep his ADP up regardless.
3. RB3 means you’re counting on him to shoulder a load as a flex player, BYE full-in or injury replacement.
4. I see upside in the player but I believe it’s mitigated by the downside of the team he’s on. Washington isn’t a world-beater offense. Suggest maybe tempering the excitement for upside a stitch.
Raptors409
Footballguy
I had him just as good if not better than Nick Chubb coming out last year. Believe me. I want guys like you to be down on him. More value for me.
voiceofunreason
Footballguy
Probably the best buy low right now.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I have him ranked similarly from a pure skill-set.
but we don’t draft players in a vacuum. The circumstances around players are highly relevant to fantasy production.
2020? I’m all in on him - he’s the prototypical 3-down back with a rare power/speed/hands combo that should pay massive dividends to the Redskins & FF managers alike. AP retires, Guice is healthy; Hoskins develops as a starting QB....there’s a lot to like for 2020.
But for *this* season, coming off of a slow rehab from major surgery with complications from infection & peripheral/sympathetic injuries, and considering the lack of talent at WR & QB, (and oh yeah, a freak of nature HOF RB sharing/dominating touches) I’m skeptical that Guice pays off for managers like you to spend a 3rd rounder on him. I believe there will be better values on the board at the time who will produce more for that pick.
but I wish you the best of luck.
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Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Dynasty, sure.
redraft? Pass.
And honestly he’s not that good a buy-low - because anyone who just drafted him in redraft or dynasty is like @Raptors409 in their optimism. So they wouldn’t sell low.
Anyone who already had him in dynasty likely paid a lot for him.
So yeah - tough circumstance to capitalize on.
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Raptors409
Footballguy
Draft status has done nothing but drop all year.
I know people are concerned about not being cleared for contact. But what's the worst case scenario? He misses 3-4 games? Not having your RB3 for 3-4 games isn't going to kill you. Especially with the upside this guy possesses.
I know people are concerned about not being cleared for contact. But what's the worst case scenario? He misses 3-4 games? Not having your RB3 for 3-4 games isn't going to kill you. Especially with the upside this guy possesses.
TheWinz
Footballguy
Missing 3-4 games would be putting him at full health by the end of September, and that's only about 6 weeks away. You really think that's the worst case scenario for a guy who is currently not cleared to play games?
Raptors409
Footballguy
Considering I haven't heard word that he's going to miss ANY GAMES, yes. This is all speculation on your part.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
The “worst case” scenario?
well let’s see:
• Further complications / aggravation of hammy
• slow healing knee
• Adrian Peterson starting, dominating carries
• WAS offense stinking up the joint with a train wreck at QB & middling WRs
• being more of a RB5 that you’d pay RB2-3 price for.
so....yeah; there are a few “worst case” scenario is, all of them bad.
you seem to have a much more optimistic take on what the “worst” case could be.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Adrian Peterson is also reportedly in fantastic shape, and in line to start regardless of Guice’s status.
Not sure why everyone (raptors) is ignoring that factor as well. It seems highly relevant.
The Redskins may not be in any hurry to get Guice on the field. It’s not like they’re a 2019 Super Bowl contenting team pinning their hopes on rushing back Guice.
Raptors409
Footballguy
If you want to be all literal, his knee could get infected and he could die from it.The “worst case” scenario?
well let’s see:
• Further complications / aggravation of hammy
• slow healing knee
• Adrian Peterson starting, dominating carries
• WAS offense stinking up the joint with a train wreck at QB & middling WRs
• being more of a RB5 that you’d pay RB2-3 price for.
so....yeah; there are a few “worst case” scenario is, all of them bad.
you seem to have a much more optimistic take on what the “worst” case could be.
"Worst case scenario."
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Well, yes. That would absolutely be a worst case scenario.
That said, my list is a bit more realistic.
matttyl
Footballguy
Honestly, I see his biggest risk (aside from the team being horrible) as Peterson. He might be old, but he's still getting it done. I don't think Guice is going to relegate Peterson to the bench entirely, and then Thompson is coming back as well. It's already a small pie, and he's only getting ~1/3 of it at best?
Elevencents
Footballguy
100% this. They have ADP so there is no reason to rush him back. Hamstrings are tricky too because they are very easy to re-aggravate. I would wait until he is 100%, then skip another game, and then put him in. He could very well be their RB for the next 5-8 years - it would be stupid to ruin him now. But it is the Redskins.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
AP is a freak of nature. - and reportedly in incredible shape. For a team that isn’t going anywhere in 2019.
honestly see zero reason why the redskins would rush Guice back other than because they’re the redskins.
Raptors409
Footballguy
AP is a freak of nature. - and reportedly in incredible shape. For a team that isn’t going anywhere in 2019.
honestly see zero reason why the redskins would rush Guice back other than because they’re the redskins.
You guys must LOVE Adrian Peterson at 11.04 then, eh?
Elevencents
Footballguy
Nope. I have Guice as a keeper from last year in Round 11 so all I want is for him to be 100% healthy before he plays. I agree with Hot Sauce Guy in that I want no part of the Redskins, but I jumped on him last year for the discount because the kid has a ton of talent.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Paid $3/500 for him in my auction dynasty and couldn’t be happier with him as my RB5.
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Raptors409
Footballguy
I see. You're opinion is completely valid. I just figured that Guice is going to come back from his ACL without issue like the past 10-15 offensive players who have suffered the same injury have.
Ever since Wes Welker tore his ACL and MCL in January 2010, was recovered by September 2010, and posted a career high 1,569 receiving yards at age 30... the injury stopped scaring me. Both the recovery and the loss of athleticism.
matttyl
Footballguy
Honestly, yeah. I mean maybe not quite that high, but after I have my top 3-4 RBs, 3-4 WRs, a QB and a TE, if you're talking a 12 team league (so pick #124 overall) there isn't much left . My dynasty league drafts rookies right after the NFL draft. Guice went #2 (and I got Chubb at #3). Peterson was a free agent, and I grabbed him in the one waiver run we do after the rookie draft and before the season. I got him for free, and he got 1,200 total yards and 8 TDs - you could do a lot worse with an 11th round pick. Do I think he'll do that again - no. But he could easily have 800+ total yards.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Welker was in a slightly better offense, and didn’t have a HOF player at his position blocking his path to touches.
Apples + oranges = ?
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Raptors409
Footballguy
I'm not comparing Welker to Guice. I'm saying the injury isn't what it used to be. If 8 years ago a 30 athletic Wide Receiver came back in 8 months and posted a career year. I'm not worried about a 22 year old kid who had 12 months to recover in the year 2019.
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Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
He’s still likely to take significant playing time from Guice.
would anyone be shocked to see a 900+ yard, 8 TD season out of AP?
I wouldn’t.
