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RB Giovani Bernard, TB (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Kleck
- Start date
Running back Giovani Bernard could miss two games with a hip pointer and clavicle injury. Regardless, there's a growing belief that Bernard will miss at least Sunday's game against the Jaguars, prompting the need to get Cedric Peerman and Rex Burkhead ready.
http://www.cincyjungle.com/2014-bengals-jaguars-week-9/2014/10/30/7135313/bengals-rb-giovani-bernard-could-miss-two-games
http://www.cincyjungle.com/2014-bengals-jaguars-week-9/2014/10/30/7135313/bengals-rb-giovani-bernard-could-miss-two-games
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Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Brutal week. I already have Forte, Sammy and Jordy on byes, and now Gio has been officially ruled out.
:sigh:
Yeah, yeah, I know.....
:sigh:
Yeah, yeah, I know.....
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Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
that's why i don't draft players if they have bye weeks
shader
Footballguy
The problem I see with Gio is that he is too decisive. He actually attacks the LOS much faster than Hill. He immediately takes off and does a really good job of getting positive yardage. Maybe he's trying to prove that he's not a COP back, I don't know.
He needs a bit more patience. We aren't talking about a large amount of time either..Hill just seems to have a brief hesitation before he commits to a run, where Gio commits immediately.
That being said, I think Gio is a bigtime buy-low candidate right now. He remains one of the most exciting open-field runners in the NFL.
He needs a bit more patience. We aren't talking about a large amount of time either..Hill just seems to have a brief hesitation before he commits to a run, where Gio commits immediately.
That being said, I think Gio is a bigtime buy-low candidate right now. He remains one of the most exciting open-field runners in the NFL.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
In redraft, I can see that. In dynasty, Gio is still among the most expensive RBs to acquire and is as likely to straight up lose a significant number of carries as any top 3 dynasty running back I can remember.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Tonight should quiet the speculation about Hill taking over as the lead dog (even though he had a decent average). You just can't replicate the threat of Gio's explosiveness.
steveski
Footballguy
While I agree that it was a good sign for Gio, I'm not confident he would have done much better last night either. They were just a disaster on offense.
You mean like how explosive Gio was against Indy? RBs aren't going to put up huge numbers when the QB is a disaster.
zamboni
Footballguy
Plus there seems to be a well-defined role for both. Gio is great out in space, and Hill is a better grinder between the tackles (basically what BJGE once was, but failed to do last year).
A good complementary fit if they can fix Dalton's and the offensive line's woes.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
It seems pretty obvious to me that the team would be better off giving Hill ~15 carries and 1-2 receptions per game, and Gio ~10 carries with 4-5 receptions. At least up until now, the coaches have disagreed.
Squintz82
Footballguy
cubbie5150
Footballguy
Why isn't Hugh making it more of an emphasis to involve the RBs in the passing game?
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Gio has one 20+ yard run this year on 109 carries, and two 20+ yard receptions on 22 catches.
Hill has one 20+ yard run this year on 86 carries, and one 20+ yard reception on 15 catches.
They both have one play over 50 yards.
mnmplayer
Footballguy
How many plays do they have over 61 yards? LOL Let's not cherry pick here. The bottom line is the rookie whiffed on a major opp against a poor rushing D.
The fumble obviously isn't good, but he had a 4.6 ypc average. It isn't really his fault that his QB was dreadful.
I like Gio, but all of this "explosiveness" talk hasn't really translated in the run game. All of last season he only had 3 rushes over 20 yards to go along with the 1 this year. That's 4 in 279 attempts (291 counting post season).
JohnnyU
Footballguy
mnmplayer
Footballguy
[SIZE=medium]We can debate who is a better runner and use the extremely small sample sizes of both RBs, but that is not how Cin will determine the starter. If you used LT's sample size of his first 319 carries, Hill matches up well to him too from a ypc avg, but that doesn't mean LT wasn't more explosive with his then 3.7 ypc avg. The point is a lot of people in “that other cin RB thread” were making claims that Hill would supplant Gio as the ball carrier with another good showing. In that manner it was a whiff.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Let’s consider the situation. Right or wrong, the reality of the situation is that it’s nearly impossible for a rookie to get reps over a vet as a starter in Cin. Here is a guy in Marvin Lewis that rolled out an inferior RB in BGE all last year without fail as the starter. The gap in talent between Gio and BGE was much greater in favor of Gio than the Hill/Gio situation today. Who is more talented between Gio/Hill is debatable, but if Marvin would not relegate the role for BGE when Gio was so clearly more talented last season, why would you think that Hill would relegate Gio’s role now? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Take the Hill goggles off for a second. What about last night’s game indicates to you that Gio’s role will change when he is healthy? Was it the rookie fumbling the ball on one of only 2 drives where they were actually able to push the ball to the CLE side of the field or was it the chemistry the offense was showing with Hill on the field? Yes he had a decent ypc avg of 4.6 last night, but didn’t he already have that ypc advantage over Gio before? His ypc avg today is 4.7, Gio’s is 4.1. That difference wasn’t enough to relegate Gio’s role before he went down. With the fumble and how the game went last night do you think it will be enough now?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Please don't ask me or claim that I think Gio is as good as LT. I am merely pointing out that YPC avg which Hill supporters keep clinging to is not going to be used as a barometer for who starts as the Cin RB going forward. If that was the barometer, BGE would have ben relegated to the bench last year as Gio had 4.1 and BGE had 3.4, not to mention Gio was light years better at receiving out of the backfield making him a more complete back overall than BGE. Gio is also a better receiver than Hill, more explosive in open space and hasn't fumbled yet this year as the starter. This is probably why beat writer Coley Harvey who is familiar with the situation thinks there is a zero chance Gio will lose his job.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Let’s consider the situation. Right or wrong, the reality of the situation is that it’s nearly impossible for a rookie to get reps over a vet as a starter in Cin. Here is a guy in Marvin Lewis that rolled out an inferior RB in BGE all last year without fail as the starter. The gap in talent between Gio and BGE was much greater in favor of Gio than the Hill/Gio situation today. Who is more talented between Gio/Hill is debatable, but if Marvin would not relegate the role for BGE when Gio was so clearly more talented last season, why would you think that Hill would relegate Gio’s role now? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Take the Hill goggles off for a second. What about last night’s game indicates to you that Gio’s role will change when he is healthy? Was it the rookie fumbling the ball on one of only 2 drives where they were actually able to push the ball to the CLE side of the field or was it the chemistry the offense was showing with Hill on the field? Yes he had a decent ypc avg of 4.6 last night, but didn’t he already have that ypc advantage over Gio before? His ypc avg today is 4.7, Gio’s is 4.1. That difference wasn’t enough to relegate Gio’s role before he went down. With the fumble and how the game went last night do you think it will be enough now?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Please don't ask me or claim that I think Gio is as good as LT. I am merely pointing out that YPC avg which Hill supporters keep clinging to is not going to be used as a barometer for who starts as the Cin RB going forward. If that was the barometer, BGE would have ben relegated to the bench last year as Gio had 4.1 and BGE had 3.4, not to mention Gio was light years better at receiving out of the backfield making him a more complete back overall than BGE. Gio is also a better receiver than Hill, more explosive in open space and hasn't fumbled yet this year as the starter. This is probably why beat writer Coley Harvey who is familiar with the situation thinks there is a zero chance Gio will lose his job.[/SIZE]
zamboni
Footballguy
And he was also praised highly for his work the previous week in the win versus the Jaguars. There's ups and downs with Hill, as there are with Gio.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
I can't speak for the folks saying that Hill would "take over" in the short-term. I think these guys are going to be 1A and 1B to each other for quite some time. My point has always been that, as early as next season, I could see Bernard becoming the 1B part of that tag-team.
Lost in all this focus about how "not quite so great" Hill's play was is the forgotten fact that Bernard's play as a runner has been incredibly bad. As has been brought up before, Bernard has reached 4ypc in only 2 of his last 11 games. The only other player in the NFL to do that was Trent Richardson. And it's interesting that Richardson's name is brought up, because Bernard this year has basically been Trent Richardson as a runner with one big 89 yard run thrown on top.
Granted, Bernard has done far more as a receiver and he's great in that capacity (though he's struggled on that front lately as well), but eventually your running back has to be able to run the football. Bernard is currently a top 3 dynasty back, valued as a comfortable starter, but there is significant risk that he falls into more of a change of pace roll as his career plays out.
In the first half of last year, averaging under 9 carries a game, Bernard ran for 4.5ypc. In the second half of the year, averaging a little over 13 carries per game, he ran for only 3.7ypc. This year, as the starter he has the 89 yard run and a whole bunch of junk as a runner.
If Bernard doesn't improve significantly as a runner he shouldn't feel safe as the lead dog if Matt Asiata was his backup (hyperbole, but you get the point), much less a promising 2nd round rookie that has looked pretty good when he's been out there.
Lost in all this focus about how "not quite so great" Hill's play was is the forgotten fact that Bernard's play as a runner has been incredibly bad. As has been brought up before, Bernard has reached 4ypc in only 2 of his last 11 games. The only other player in the NFL to do that was Trent Richardson. And it's interesting that Richardson's name is brought up, because Bernard this year has basically been Trent Richardson as a runner with one big 89 yard run thrown on top.
Granted, Bernard has done far more as a receiver and he's great in that capacity (though he's struggled on that front lately as well), but eventually your running back has to be able to run the football. Bernard is currently a top 3 dynasty back, valued as a comfortable starter, but there is significant risk that he falls into more of a change of pace roll as his career plays out.
In the first half of last year, averaging under 9 carries a game, Bernard ran for 4.5ypc. In the second half of the year, averaging a little over 13 carries per game, he ran for only 3.7ypc. This year, as the starter he has the 89 yard run and a whole bunch of junk as a runner.
If Bernard doesn't improve significantly as a runner he shouldn't feel safe as the lead dog if Matt Asiata was his backup (hyperbole, but you get the point), much less a promising 2nd round rookie that has looked pretty good when he's been out there.
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mnmplayer
Footballguy
In retrospect, that might have been a mistake. Hill is talented, no doubt, but I don't see this last games performance has earned him a larger role, as was the statement especially considering Marvin already holds a bias against having rookie RBs carry the load. Doesn't this latest performance just feed into his own bias?
mnmplayer
Footballguy
I don't think you can judge either Hill or Gio's body of work with any consistency until a larger sample size is attained and Gio is the starter and if healthy is in line for more carries so he will get first crack to prove himself. It would be silly to judge a RB after less than 300 carries. You can use measurables or simply the eye test, but that is subjective. My eye tells me that Gio is a better more talented player, but that doesn't mean I can't be wrong or that Hill is not talented to0. But Hill's style more closely resembles a Lacy/TRich type of player where I prefer a McCoy/Bell/Westbrook/LT type, probably because I play in a PPR league.
cstu
Footballguy
cmv5
Footballguy
What drives me nuts about Fantasy Football discussion is everybody is so jaded by who they own that you can't have a discussion without complete bias. I do a lot wrong in FF but I am not afraid to look at a guy I own and say, "uh oh." about somebody having a legit shot at stealing the job.
A couple of points, Bobby Rainey 4.6, Darren McFadden 4.9, Denard Robinson 5.6, Leveon Bell 4.6 and 5.2, Taliaferro, 5.1. That is what other running backs did against Cleveland. People will mention Jeremy Hill's 4.6 ypc and then reference Gio's ypc for the year. I have a pretty good feeling Gio could have put up very similar numbers. Only one starting running back had under 4.6 ypc against Cleveland, so stop citing his ypc in this game as a positive!
Second point, having Jeremy Hill in at running back in this type of situation made me feel like I do when I have been faced many times in this same situation with a similar back, Alfred Morris. No, thank you!
If a game does not go perfectly, backs like Jeremy Hill are not going to do much to move an offense. Giovani Bernard is an all around offensive weapon more like an L.T., Edgerrin James, Marshall Faulk type. You can debate his ypc all day but the bottom line is he can do so much more to get the ball down the field.
Oh, he got hurt and isn't meant to get as many carries as he has? So did Arian Foster, Montee Ball, Andre Ellington, Doug Martin, Ryan Mathews, Toby Gerhart, Rashad Jennings, C.J. Spiller, Reggie Bush, Ben Tate, Joique Bell, Pierre Thomas, Fred Jackson, Lamar Miller, Stevan Ridley, Knowshon Moreno, Danny Woodhead, Mark Ingram, Darren Sproles, Jonathan Stewart, DeAngelo Williams, I am stopping now. All pretty much with less touches than Gio had for the season and there are plenty of guys in there with that "perfect" build for RB. Don't get me wrong, there are some running styles I avoid but Gio doesn't do anything that makes me feel he looks for extra contact or runs upright, so I am fine not concerning myself about him getting hurt than I do for any other running back in football.
So bottom line to me is, I don't see Adrian Peterson, healthy Jonathan Stewart running back in Jeremy Hill when he plays so my money is on this staying Gio's job. Barring injury, which of course as we can see, is a real possibility.
A couple of points, Bobby Rainey 4.6, Darren McFadden 4.9, Denard Robinson 5.6, Leveon Bell 4.6 and 5.2, Taliaferro, 5.1. That is what other running backs did against Cleveland. People will mention Jeremy Hill's 4.6 ypc and then reference Gio's ypc for the year. I have a pretty good feeling Gio could have put up very similar numbers. Only one starting running back had under 4.6 ypc against Cleveland, so stop citing his ypc in this game as a positive!
Second point, having Jeremy Hill in at running back in this type of situation made me feel like I do when I have been faced many times in this same situation with a similar back, Alfred Morris. No, thank you!
If a game does not go perfectly, backs like Jeremy Hill are not going to do much to move an offense. Giovani Bernard is an all around offensive weapon more like an L.T., Edgerrin James, Marshall Faulk type. You can debate his ypc all day but the bottom line is he can do so much more to get the ball down the field.
Oh, he got hurt and isn't meant to get as many carries as he has? So did Arian Foster, Montee Ball, Andre Ellington, Doug Martin, Ryan Mathews, Toby Gerhart, Rashad Jennings, C.J. Spiller, Reggie Bush, Ben Tate, Joique Bell, Pierre Thomas, Fred Jackson, Lamar Miller, Stevan Ridley, Knowshon Moreno, Danny Woodhead, Mark Ingram, Darren Sproles, Jonathan Stewart, DeAngelo Williams, I am stopping now. All pretty much with less touches than Gio had for the season and there are plenty of guys in there with that "perfect" build for RB. Don't get me wrong, there are some running styles I avoid but Gio doesn't do anything that makes me feel he looks for extra contact or runs upright, so I am fine not concerning myself about him getting hurt than I do for any other running back in football.
So bottom line to me is, I don't see Adrian Peterson, healthy Jonathan Stewart running back in Jeremy Hill when he plays so my money is on this staying Gio's job. Barring injury, which of course as we can see, is a real possibility.
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Jerry Curl
Footballguy
dcgangstas
Footballguy
If Gio's just making it to the rehab practice field, he's probably 2 weeks away from returning at best. It's not just his hip injury, but also the collarbone injury too.
Hope you backed him up with Hill or suitable equivalent.
Hope you backed him up with Hill or suitable equivalent.
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Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
This guy is not coming back this season, is he....
bill bates hits hard
Footballguy
I hope not.^
VikingFrog
Footballguy
Anyone trading for Gio.
Guy in my league is in much need of a flex play this week and possibly sell Gio for a stronger play this week?
Anyone had any luck buying low? Injury still scares me, but could be worth a gamble.
Guy in my league is in much need of a flex play this week and possibly sell Gio for a stronger play this week?
Anyone had any luck buying low? Injury still scares me, but could be worth a gamble.
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