RB Miles Sanders, DAL (3 Viewers)

[BobbyLayne]

Sure, but out of how many RBs drafted in 4th or later/UDFA over that span? You cited Sproles, who was drafted in 2005, so you're talking about a period spanning 17 drafts. In Sproles' draft alone, there were 12 other RBs drafted in the 4th-7th rounds. Plus however many UDFA RBs were signed.

Odds of success being drafted in the 5th round are low.

Absolutely, draft capital is a huge indicator of having a Top 12 season during a career. But my point is we often see guys without draft capital carve out a role.

The league has a lot of specialists - 3rd down pass catchers, GL backs, early down backs. Kerryon is a shell of himself in terms of explosiveness, but he’s been top 5 in pass Pro the last two years. He’ll never be a feature back but he might end up bouncing around the league for a long time bc he’s got some highly valued and specific skills.

But you’re right, Gainwell’s path to FF relevancy is a long shot. That’s reflected in his  late round ADP.

 

[zamboni]

IDK if I’d knock Gainwell just bc he’s a day 3 pick. A lot of folks think he is the best pass catching RB in this class.

Think about all Day 3 satellite backs who have been PPR monsters, never an RB1 but quite effective as an RB2 or Flex: Cohen (4th), Edmonds (4th), Hines (4th), Lewis (5th), McKissic (UDFA), Riddick (6th), Sproles (4th), White (4th), et al.

Fair point. Gainwell may not amount to a lot, but enough to dent Miles’ value. My point is that too much may be being made about him fully supplanting Sanders on passing down duties. 

 

[Teezee]

Boobie is a Top 3 talent in my opinion. I believe I've raved about him before in this thread but I just wanted to check in and show my love 

 

[Faust]

Mike Kaye @mike_e_kaye

Our #Eagles training camp breakdown series continues with the running back depth chart:
- Locks, bubble guys and long shots
- Biggest question entering camp
- Matchup to watch

https://twitter.com/mike_e_kaye/status/1415056553741279239?s=21
 

Sigmund Bloom @SigmundBloom

good stuff as always mike. any indication as to what the new coaching regime thinks of sanders?

https://twitter.com/sigmundbloom/status/1415068834394869760?s=21
 

Mike Kaye @mike_e_kaye

The indication I get is they think he is a feature-capable back. But, Sirianni and Steichen both come from a long line of coaches who use RBs in very specific roles in committees. It’ll be interesting to see how it plays out.

https://twitter.com/mike_e_kaye/status/1415069927799656448?s=21

 

[Faust]

Will Eagles’ Miles Sanders make the leap to every-down back in Year 3? Training camp breakdown

Excerpt:

Biggest Question: Will Miles Sanders handle the workload of a legitimate three-down back?

Sanders’ rookie season offered a glimpse of compelling upside. His second season gave the opposite impression. Now, Sanders needs to show what he actually is.

With a new staff in place, Sanders will have a fresh start. Considered a versatile player, Sanders will need to improve his blocking and receiving to keep that superlative.

While he’s flashed potential in all aspects of his game, he’s yet to really put everything together over a long stretch. He will need to do that this season to prove he deserves the “workhorse” title.

 

[Faust]

Miles Sanders May Not Work On Every Down In 2021

Philadelphia Eagles running back Miles Sanders may have his role scaled back in the 2021 season. When healthy, Sanders operated as an almost every-down back in the Eagles offense last season. Boston Scott would mix in on some third downs, but Sanders was usually on the field for every play of an offensive drive. New Eagles running backs coach Jamel Singleton has mentioned that he prefers not using an every-down back, however. He said, "You need a first- and second-down runner with that really elite ability. You need a guy that can pass protect on third down and be short yardage. You need a back that can run routes and you can put him out in empty. It's really a combination of that. I think the days of, 'he's an every-down back,' that's a little skewed these days because of the speed, because of the contact." Sanders was getting over 18 touches on average when Jalen Hurts was starting last season, but that number could be cut in half if the Eagles do in fact go away from him as an every-down player. Sanders is being drafted as a top-20 running back in early drafts, and while he has the talent to produce that kind of value, he may not have the opportunity.--David A Marcillo - RotoBaller
Source: The Athletic

 

[Faust]

Fantasy Football: Where Miles Sanders lands in PFF RB rankings & tiers

 

[Faust]

Former NFL RB turned analyst ranks Miles Sanders among the worst starters heading into 2021

 

[Faust]

The Criticism Of Eagles RB Miles Sanders Is Perplexing

 

[trader jake]

There are enough questions about Sanders at the goal-line and his role on 3rd down to keep his cost low.  He certainly has the skills but I'm not sure he has the vision or ability to stay healthy to be an elite, high 1st round fantasy RB.  Doesn't mean he can't put up nice numbers, with some big weekly plays, to be very good though.

 

[TS Garp]

There are enough questions about Sanders at the goal-line and his role on 3rd down to keep his cost low.  He certainly has the skills but I'm not sure he has the vision or ability to stay healthy to be an elite, high 1st round fantasy RB.  Doesn't mean he can't put up nice numbers, with some big weekly plays, to be very good though.

When you say goal line questions, do you mean because of Hurts or do you think Howard could steal goal line carries? Hurts isn't a big guy like Josh Allen or Cam Newton. I actually don't see him taking much goal line work (as Lamar hasn't generally taken it in Baltimore).  Howard could be another matter, if he makes the team, but I would still assume Sanders is the favorite.

 

[trader jake]

When you say goal line questions, do you mean because of Hurts or do you think Howard could steal goal line carries? 

Three factors:. Mobile QB more likely to run scores in and/or tuck ball and run vs dump off passes, role questions (will 'big' back take goal line carries/will 'small' back take away looks in 3rd downs?), and some questions about Sanders ability to get the job done every week with high touch numbers.

Sander's biggest weakness is his poor vision...and players can't hesitate or misread goal-line situations and be successful over the long run in that important fantasy role.  The above items are more nitpick than hardcore negatives, but they do keep him a tier (or two depending on your viewpoint) below other running backs.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I’m fresh off of getting burned by him as a late 2nd in redraft last year.

I’m not gonna waste a 5th on him this year, though that’s a more attractive price.
 

 I don’t trust his ability to stay on the field, I don’t trust the way they’ll use him, I don’t trust his TD potential (in part due to a mobile QB) and I just don’t know if I trust the Eagles to field a competent offense. I’m not 100% sold on Hurts, so imma try to avoid this team.

Maybe i’ll miss a bargain & maybe it’s recency bias, but I’ll take that chance. Especially with the players available where I’d have to take Sanders. 

 

[Tanner9919]

Sirianni is getting trashed lately by some ex-NFL'ers questioning hi leadership capabilities. 

He's from a system that uses 35 RBs and spreads the shares among them.

Hard to get all excited about Sanders he's facing a crowded backfield and a coach hellbent on using all of them , every week.

trade him before camp starts and never look back.

 

[Teezee]

I am not a Sirianni guy. Sirianni is most definitely going to affect Boobie negatively this season.

But, I also want to mention Philadelphia probably had the worst luck with injuries along the offensive line last year and they will get all of them back to start the season.

One minus is Hurts did not look in the flat last season, at all. He has a gunslinger mentality and looks down the field.

One plus is Sirianni comes from an environment where they drew plays for the RBs in the flat.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I am not a Sirianni guy. Sirianni is most definitely going to affect Boobie negatively this season.

But, I also want to mention Philadelphia probably had the worst luck with injuries along the offensive line last year and they will get all of them back to start the season.

One minus is Hurts did not look in the flat last season, at all. He has a gunslinger mentality and looks down the field.

One plus is Sirianni comes from an environment where they drew plays for the RBs in the flat.

One more plus, Sanders enters the year healthy. Last year he never quite looked 100% after missing the 1st game. 

but nope. Never again. Nope nope nope nope nope nope nope

nope. 

 

[Teezee]

One more plus, Sanders enters the year healthy. Last year he never quite looked 100% after missing the 1st game. 

but nope. Never again. Nope nope nope nope nope nope nope

nope. 

Boobie is one my guys. As a pure runner, I believe he is a Top 3 talent behind Chubb and Saquon.

It just seems in Philadelphia, a notoriously pass heavy organization the past 20 years (even when they had Duce and Westbrook), a lot of things have to go right for him to succeed as a runner. Not only scheme wise but now they have Hurts back there and I don't think he knows what he's doing yet. He forced the ball to his receivers a lot and rarely took the check down. Even I have faded him a little for right now. But I absolutely believe in the talent.

 

[Faust]

MILES SANDERS RB, PHILADELPHIA EAGLES

94 WIP Philadelphia's Eliot Shorr-Parks expects Miles Sanders and Boston Scott to "basically split touches" this season.

ESP notes that through seven training camp practices, Sanders has narrowly out-touched Scott just 35-29 with the first-team offense. With Jalen Hurts under center, expect the Eagles to implement a run-centric offense, so Sanders should get a good number of carries, but it truly sounds like Scott is going to be heavily involved as the preferred pass-catcher and change-of-pace back. Sanders has dealt with injuries and can't be trusted for a full workload. Sanders is currently being drafted as a back-end RB2 while Scott isn't even being drafted in 12-team fantasy leagues. Rookie Kenneth Gainwell looks like the clear No. 3.

RELATED: 

Boston Scott

SOURCE: Eliot Shorr-Parks on Twitter

Aug 4, 2021, 9:31 PM ET

 

[Faust]

NFL Beat Writers @32BeatWriters

Stock : “I want to make clear that purely as a runner, (Miles) Sanders is having a very good camp. He looks quick, explosive and agile. But he’s had far too many drops and also fumbled on Day 8 of practice. The drops are what are very concerning.”

https://twitter.com/32beatwriters/status/1423638880369135622?s=21

 

[zamboni]

Not sure what's going on with Miles and the drops going back to last year. That was a core strength of his entering the league and as a rookie. Very concerning PPR wise considering they have two capable pass catching backs in Scott and Gainwell that can keep him off the field on passing downs.

 

[Unwrittenlaw]

I don't think Gainwell is gonna be a factor as long as Sanders as the RB in Philly. There's a reason for this. Sanders didn't struggle with his 5 ypc.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Not sure what's going on with Miles and the drops going back to last year. That was a core strength of his entering the league and as a rookie. Very concerning PPR wise considering they have two capable pass catching backs in Scott and Gainwell that can keep him off the field on passing downs.

A drop in the preseason gets magnified because he had some issues last season. He has a much larger resume as a pass catching back so I’m hopeful last season was an outlier. Personally I think Sanders is a RB1 this season, but not without risk.

 

[zamboni]

A drop in the preseason gets magnified because he had some issues last season. He has a much larger resume as a pass catching back so I’m hopeful last season was an outlier. Personally I think Sanders is a RB1 this season, but not without risk.

Agreed, although who knows what the new coaching regime thinks - which is obviously all that matters. The drafting of Gainwell didn’t give me the warm and fuzzies for sure.

 

[Faust]

Tim McManus @Tim_McManus

4) Not enough is being made of the fact that the offensive improvement we’ve seen of late pretty well coincides with the offensive line getting back to full strength. The right side in particular — Johnson and Brooks — has been opening some monster holes for Miles Sanders.

https://twitter.com/tim_mcmanus/status/1427719869647179787?s=21

 

[travdogg]

If I were to make a list of "my guys" for this year, Miles Sanders is my #1 RB. He's going to be a big play machine in this offense. He's basically Jonathan Taylor with a huge discount.

 

[JohnnyU]

If I were to make a list of "my guys" for this year, Miles Sanders is my #1 RB. He's going to be a big play machine in this offense. He's basically Jonathan Taylor with a huge discount.

I admire your optimism, even if I disagree.  Gainwell could be better and will have a decent role.

 

[need2know]

If I were to make a list of "my guys" for this year, Miles Sanders is my #1 RB. He's going to be a big play machine in this offense. He's basically Jonathan Taylor with a huge discount.

Hope you are right.   Don't see it though

 

[cloppbeast]

Agreed, although who knows what the new coaching regime thinks - which is obviously all that matters. The drafting of Gainwell didn’t give me the warm and fuzzies for sure.

Team spends 5th round pick on RB when they lost one in FA, this is concerning?

 

[JohnnyU]

Team spends 5th round pick on RB when they lost one in FA, this is concerning?

No, but if one believes in Gainwell's talent, that should be a concern.  If nothing else he has a significant role and severely caps Sander's production.  I for sure believe that is the case long term (barring injury of course), but could be in play for 2021.

 

[Insein]

All backfields have at least 2 productive RBs these days from an NFL standpoint (not always from a fantasy one). Gainwell shouldn't affect Sanders potential too much. We still haven't seen Sanders' live up to it yet. 

 

[cloppbeast]

No, but if one believes in Gainwell's talent, that should be a concern.  If nothing else he has a significant role and severely caps Sander's production.  I for sure believe that is the case long term (barring injury of course), but could be in play for 2021.

Although, how one feels about Gainwell has no bearing. 

 

[Faust]

August 15:

Miles Sanders working hard to fix his drops issue

 

[JohnnyU]

Although, how one feels about Gainwell has no bearing. 

Sure it does.  He's already the better receiver and that will have an effect on Sander's production.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

No, but if one believes in Gainwell's talent, that should be a concern.  If nothing else he has a significant role and severely caps Sander's production.  I for sure believe that is the case long term (barring injury of course), but could be in play for 2021.

Didn't you warn that RBs taken in rounds 4 and later generally don't pan out in another thread yesterday?

 

[cloppbeast]

Didn't you warn that RBs taken in rounds 4 and later generally don't pan out in another thread yesterday?

Except when one likes said rb and one does not like the starting rb.

Hard and fast rules are for monks and priests.

 

[cloppbeast]

Sure it does.  He's already the better receiver and that will have an effect on Sander's production.

Whatchu think about Nyhiem Hines being a better receiver than whats-his-name?

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Except when one likes said rb and one does not like the starting rb.

Hard and fast rules are for monks and priests.

I'm not trying to call out @JohnnyU - he's a good poster but this was his post in the Michael Carter thread:

The hit rate on late round RBs is atrocious as a whole.  I did some research on this in another thread somewhere, but 5th, 6th, 7th, or undrafted players are worse than those drafted in the 4th round, but even 4th round RBs don't have a great hit rate.  Again, this is based on overall hit rates and of course you have exceptions like James Robinson.  I wouldn't consider Ty Johnson as a lottery ticket and would rather have Carter.  The question of whether Carter's ADP is worth it, well, I don't know for sure, but if you would rather have Ty Johnson later in the draft, then knock yourself out.  I just wouldn't put that much stock into Johnson being a viable fantasy asset on a bad team.

I surely get that there are exceptions to every rule and we all have players we believe in - but I'm not sure how one makes this statement and then definitively states Gainwell is "already a better receiver than Sanders" or even how he is a "severe" a threat to Sanders' playing time.

For the record, I do see Scott and maybe Gainwell seeing snaps but I'm not sure it's at any greater rate than most starting/backup RBs.

 

[Thunderlips]

I'm not trying to call out @JohnnyU - he's a good poster but this was his post in the Michael Carter thread:

I surely get that there are exceptions to every rule and we all have players we believe in - but I'm not sure how one makes this statement and then definitively states Gainwell is "already a better receiver than Sanders" or even how he's definitely a threat to Sanders' playing time.

For the record, I do see Scott and maybe Gainwell seeing snaps but I'm not sure it's at any greater rate than most starting/backup RBs.

A number of hosts on PHI Sports Radio feel Scott might actually end up being a 1B RB to Sanders 1A as soon as Week 1.  Sanders is having problems catching onto the ball. 

Add to that they do love Gainwell.  IIRC, several draft "experts" thought the Eagles got a real steal.

Don't sell Scott short....they love him.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

A number of hosts on PHI Sports Radio feel Scott might actually end up being a 1B RB to Sanders 1A as soon as Week 1.  Sanders is having problems catching onto the ball. 

Add to that they do love Gainwell.  IIRC, several draft "experts" thought the Eagles got a real steal.

Don't sell Scott short....they love him.

I've read some similar things - but I think Sanders drops were early in camp and he's been much better since then.

I know they like Scott, and agree he's a decent RB, but in the end I'm not seeing a true split and almost every backfield has some type of RBBC at this point - which is why true workhorse RBs like CMC, Zeke, Henry, Cook and Barkly are generally going in the top 6 picks.

 

[JFS171]

My primary concern with Sanders is that he doesn’t see it very well. I think RB vision is terribly hard to quantify or even spot, but it’s alarming to me how often he will bust a huge play and then run right into the back of his OL and miss the crease entirely. 

I never played RB. No idea what it takes to sense a crease like that, but one of my favorite podcasters has long comp’d Sanders to Tevin Coleman as an elite athlete that hasn’t lived up to his ability because of his vision (or lack thereof). I think Sanders has more lateral agility, but I do worry his vision will always hold him back. 

 

[cloppbeast]

A number of hosts on PHI Sports Radio feel Scott might actually end up being a 1B RB to Sanders 1A as soon as Week 1.  Sanders is having problems catching onto the ball. 

Add to that they do love Gainwell.  IIRC, several draft "experts" thought the Eagles got a real steal.

Don't sell Scott short....they love him.

I've honestly never listened to philly sports radio, maybe somebody familiar could weigh in. My understanding would have it they should in no way ever be referenced as rational observers making sound conclusions.

 

[Thunderlips]

I've honestly never listened to philly sports radio, maybe somebody familiar could weigh in. My understanding would have it they should in no way ever be referenced as rational observers making sound conclusions.

Certain guys are just pure shtick....Angelo Cataldi being the primary one.  He runs the morning show and that show is basically cheese.

WIP though does have a decent number of hosts who take it seriously; along with several former players.  Ike Reese and Jon Ritchie are currently in the afternoon and they'll give you some good insight.  Along with the Eagles beat writers/reporters that they interview almost daily....the station does provide insight.  

 

[jm192]

u

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Information like this comes out every year, and it almost always is proven untrue - particularly when it's played out over an entire season.

"Player Y looks like he might steal carries/catches/goal line work from Player X!" Those might be all true, in specific situations. But it's not going to hold true over an entire season.

There's a difference between "pretty good" and "really good". Guys like Scott and Gainwell are pretty good. Sanders is really good (not elite, mind you).

Don't worry so much about the pretty good guys and reports of them being pretty good coming out of camp. NFL coaches and staffs have a VERY high opinion of themselves - they act like they're participating in the Manhattan Project. They lie and misinform like the CIA. Cut through their baloney a little bit.

 

[Teezee]

My primary concern with Sanders is that he doesn’t see it very well. I think RB vision is terribly hard to quantify or even spot, but it’s alarming to me how often he will bust a huge play and then run right into the back of his OL and miss the crease entirely. 

I never played RB. No idea what it takes to sense a crease like that, but one of my favorite podcasters has long comp’d Sanders to Tevin Coleman as an elite athlete that hasn’t lived up to his ability because of his vision (or lack thereof). I think Sanders has more lateral agility, but I do worry his vision will always hold him back. 

I’m right there with you on all of that. And I love Boobie, think he’s a Top 3 pure runner. But I find myself scratching my head watching him play to play. 

 

[rschroeder1]

Information like this comes out every year, and it almost always is proven untrue - particularly when it's played out over an entire season.

"Player Y looks like he might steal carries/catches/goal line work from Player X!" Those might be all true, in specific situations. But it's not going to hold true over an entire season.

There's a difference between "pretty good" and "really good". Guys like Scott and Gainwell are pretty good. Sanders is really good (not elite, mind you).

Don't worry so much about the pretty good guys and reports of them being pretty good coming out of camp. NFL coaches and staffs have a VERY high opinion of themselves - they act like they're participating in the Manhattan Project. They lie and misinform like the CIA. Cut through their baloney a little bit.

I would add in that the narratives often are in complete contrast when applied to different players.  Chase Edmonds comes to mind for me - he had one chance to start last year, had a decidedly average day, and the narrative for quite a few people became "well he had a his chance and didn't take it."

Boston Scott had quite a few chances last year, and did basically nothing.

Of course, that doesn't mean Scott is or isn't going to be 1B.  But identifying the narratives that have virtually nothing to do with real-life football is certainly a draft advantage.

 

[zamboni]

I would add in that the narratives often are in complete contrast when applied to different players.  Chase Edmonds comes to mind for me - he had one chance to start last year, had a decidedly average day, and the narrative for quite a few people became "well he had a his chance and didn't take it."

Boston Scott had quite a few chances last year, and did basically nothing.

Of course, that doesn't mean Scott is or isn't going to be 1B.  But identifying the narratives that have virtually nothing to do with real-life football is certainly a draft advantage.

The wildcard is that it's a new coaching regime. We don't know how much they believe in Scott - or Sanders for that matter - while Gainwell was the guy they drafted. Definitely have to see how things shake out in the first regular season game.

 

[rschroeder1]

The wildcard is that it's a new coaching regime. We don't know how much they believe in Scott - or Sanders for that matter - while Gainwell was the guy they drafted. Definitely have to see how things shake out in the first regular season game.

That's all true.  I don't doubt there is variability built into Sanders' price.  I've frequented this thread a lot trying to figure out how I feel about it all!

But we have two carryover RBs from last year on the Eagles (Sanders and Scott), neither of whom covered themselves in glory last year.  Both are presumably up for evaluation by the new coaching staff.  The only evidence of Scott's elevation and Sanders' relative demotion in the pecking order is training camp coach speak.  In other words, nothing has actually changed, except for perceptions.

 

[Insein]

If I wasn't keeping Sanders for a 7th, I'd pass at his price. Too much uncertainty on a guy who hasn't proven a thing yet. 

 

[IHEARTFF]

If I wasn't keeping Sanders for a 7th, I'd pass at his price. Too much uncertainty on a guy who hasn't proven a thing yet. 

I think he’s proven to be pretty good in his first 2 years.