zamboni
Footballguy
That’s a big reason why they love(d) and rewarded Gus. He was a solid runner but it was all the non-statistical parts of the position that team brass coveted.
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RB Ty'son Williams, BAL (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Go Blue
- Start date
Mark Football
Footballguy
Missed his block on the fumble. This guy is done.
Casting Couch
Footballguy
VikingFrog
Footballguy
After watching that second half, I’m now tempted to take the Sutton offer that was launched at me when Williams scored that first TD.
Casting Couch
Footballguy
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Casting Couch
Footballguy
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
The Frankman
Footballguy
So... 1A to Murray's 1B with Bell/Freeman/Cannon as 1C.
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FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
He looked solid running the ball. The pleasant surprise was the receiving usage. But I wonder how much longer he will be in there on passing downs as the guy who made essentially the game winnings trip sack on Lamar ran right through a really poor half assed block attempt by Williams.
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socrates
Footballguy
Murray looked dreadfully slow, but he is a reliable vet. It appeared the Ravens trusted Murray over Williams in the second half. Williams and Jackson had a couple awkward exchanges that nearly led to fumbles, and perhaps that factored into the decision to feature Murray late in the game, but Williams has a lot more juice in his legs. It is noteworthy that Williams was in the game in OT and missed a key block which resulted in Jackson losing the ball.
Williams brings more excitement to the running game, but he needs to clean up a couple of things before he earns his team's trust. Eventually, he could dominate RB touches, but he is not there yet.
Williams brings more excitement to the running game, but he needs to clean up a couple of things before he earns his team's trust. Eventually, he could dominate RB touches, but he is not there yet.
Banger
Footballguy
that'll be key....get a better understanding on why, despite his first half success, he barely touched the ball in the 2nd. He's still young and has never been in this role so it may take some time....
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Exactly.
Lat 2.8 yards per carry
Ty 7.2 showed exceptional burst on his TD. If you look at Harbs on the sideline he's smiling ear-to-ear and congratulates Ty as he shakes his hand. Practically glowing.
Second half Ty blew some assignments but he can learn while Latavius is 31 slow and those thing don't improve over time.
One interesting note that has been overlooked by everyone is Steve Young's take on the pregame where he said that the Ravens as a team won't get over the hump with the run based offense.
Right now that offense looks messy. You don't build a rushing attack around a 31 year old veteran plodder on a team with playoff/SB aspirations.
They will keep a rotation and Ty will improve and show he's the 'best' prospect going forward.
Buck Bradcanon
Footballguy
Maybe I'm just a pessimist, but usage aside, I thought Ty'Son looked kinda plodding himself. Yes Murray looked washed but I wasn't all that impressed with Ty'Son. He did get me a win so I shouldn't bite the hand that feeds i guess.
Heck I thought Trenton Cannon looked more explosive than either of the other 2.
Heck I thought Trenton Cannon looked more explosive than either of the other 2.
I wasn't impressed with Ty'son either. I realized he ran straight up the middle on one of those broken 4th and 1 plays but other than that he looked slow and plodding.
I think long term this is Murray's backfield but even murray will be lucky to get 10 carries
Bell waiting in the wings as well...and Cannon is going to get his
I think long term this is Murray's backfield but even murray will be lucky to get 10 carries
Bell waiting in the wings as well...and Cannon is going to get his
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Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Trenton Cannon - 2.5 yards per carry
Lower than Latavious Murray and Trenton is primarily a special teamer who probably got his 2 touches to give a rest.
zamboni
Footballguy
Agreed - Cannon is a good special teamer, but that's probably about it. I think it's a legitimate concern that the proven vets Murray (and maybe Bell) will keep Williams off the field more than we'd like, but I don't think Cannon is in that same realm.
I don't think Cannon is either but i can see him stealing 5 carries per game and some catches as he is more electric with the ball.
Murray is going to get 7-10 carries
Bell?
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Do you target the old-slow 2.7 yard per carry vet or the 2.5 yard per carry special teamer?
Or the 7.2 yard per carry back?
Data to help make that decision.
Target explosive running backs
Or the 7.2 yard per carry back?
Data to help make that decision.
Target explosive running backs
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Well, I just sold Tyson & Tony Jones for Chubba Hubbard (I have CMC) + Nelson Aghlor in redraft.
Good luck everyone!
Good luck everyone!
foxco
Footballguy
I wouldn't be buying in dynasty I don't think, and if I could get a 2nd I'd be all over it.
The Frankman
Footballguy
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jdoggydogg
Footballguy
I own Ty'Son Williams. But people discounting Latavius are engaging in wishful thinking. Yes, Williams is faster and offers more upside with his talent. But Murray is a reliable player with enough skills to earn plenty of playing time. Really, Murry isn't a radically different player than Gus Edwards in that he is a solid player that Baltimore will rely on a lot this year.
wgoldsph
Footballguy
I see Murray as 1a and Williams as 1b with potential to switch as the year goes on if Williams improves in pass pro. Williams brutal wiff last night gave Murray a lot of breathing room that he shouldn't have because of how done he is. Bell hasn't got it any more and may be worse than Murray and foreman never had it to begin with.
It is possible Williams wiffed so bad he's yanked completely and put on special teams, prompting cannon's release, but I don't think so. He showed nice burst and caught the ball well on designed plays.
If the best you can hope for is a 2nd or Hubbardish, I'm holding with the hope that his value increases by the trade deadline.
It is possible Williams wiffed so bad he's yanked completely and put on special teams, prompting cannon's release, but I don't think so. He showed nice burst and caught the ball well on designed plays.
If the best you can hope for is a 2nd or Hubbardish, I'm holding with the hope that his value increases by the trade deadline.
Stat Correction
Footballguy
Agree with the majority of your assessment. Should be Murray's job as 1a for the foreseeable future, bringing in Williams for a little extra juice a few times a game.
However, I disagree that Murray is "done". No, he didn't show out well last night in limited action, although the 8 yard TD run was impressive. He's always had a good nose for the end zone.
Let's remember that, due to his limited usage over the years, Murray should still have some tread left. In 7 full years in the NFL, he has 1385 total touches, which averages out to less than 200/year. He averaged 4.5 yards/rush his last 2 years with the Saints, with a 4.2 ypc average over his career. He also can catch the ball cleanly outta the backfield, with 185 catches with 7.0 yards per over his career. Yes, he's 31 years old, but the man looked very capable the last two years. Are we to believe that he hit the wall so quickly?
By comparison, Bell is only 29 years old, but has 8 full years in the NFL. He has 1950 total touches, or about 244/year, and a 4.1 yards/carry over his career.....and hasn't cleared 4.0 ypc since 2016. I agree that he is likely washed.
I think Murray can still produce in that offense. Heck, he had only been with the team a couple of days when mustered into service Monday night. Didn't expect much from him. Again, Williams has some definite flash, but he looked horribly inefficient in ball security and pass pro, and quite possibly cost them the game. That looms large. Murray's gonna get his chance, although I am more concerned about the loss of LG Tyre Phillips than I am about Murray's abilities.
Sam Quentin
Footballguy
Rewatching the highlights and I think Williams did OK on pass pro.
Lamar has to secure the ball.
The OLine has to do a much better job pass blocking because Lamar was under siege all game.
Williams has room for growth, but I thought he did ok, especially for a first game.
It feels like TWill has been under siege from Gus/LatMur owners from the day Gus got hurt.
The loss is Lamar, the O Line, the vaunted D that surrendered 300 passing yards in just the second half and the coaches who opted no to force a kickoff return and then sent the house after Carr allowing Zay Jones a walk in TD.
The Ravens lost this game twice really, even though they got bailed out the first time by a weird helmet bounce pass.
Twill is by far and away their best back and when he was getting heavy usage, the Ravens went up by two touchdowns.
Lamar has to secure the ball.
The OLine has to do a much better job pass blocking because Lamar was under siege all game.
Williams has room for growth, but I thought he did ok, especially for a first game.
It feels like TWill has been under siege from Gus/LatMur owners from the day Gus got hurt.
The loss is Lamar, the O Line, the vaunted D that surrendered 300 passing yards in just the second half and the coaches who opted no to force a kickoff return and then sent the house after Carr allowing Zay Jones a walk in TD.
The Ravens lost this game twice really, even though they got bailed out the first time by a weird helmet bounce pass.
Twill is by far and away their best back and when he was getting heavy usage, the Ravens went up by two touchdowns.
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The Frankman
Footballguy
I don't think I'd go that far. Williams is still the 1A to me in this committee, but if he keeps missing assignments/does not pick up the Pistol in practice there's room for Murray to not only eat into Williams' 1A role, but maybe take it for himself.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I see Cannon’s release as room for Freeman or Bell.
IMO, things could very quickly spiral to a 3-headed RBBC.
I only saw the Ravens run plays out of the Pistol formation a couple of times & they were unsuccessful plays with Williams in there.
Their offensive identify has been to confuse defenses using RPO out of that pistol formation.
I’m wondering which of Bell, Freeman, Murray or Williams understands that part of the playbook the best.
That’s the back to bet on. The Ravens looked like they were using about 1/5 of their playbook on MNF.
IMO, things could very quickly spiral to a 3-headed RBBC.
I only saw the Ravens run plays out of the Pistol formation a couple of times & they were unsuccessful plays with Williams in there.
Their offensive identify has been to confuse defenses using RPO out of that pistol formation.
I’m wondering which of Bell, Freeman, Murray or Williams understands that part of the playbook the best.
That’s the back to bet on. The Ravens looked like they were using about 1/5 of their playbook on MNF.
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Sarlakticacid
Footballguy
Did all his miscues come after that headshot he took?
I think Murray looked pretty terrible, and that TD wasn't very impressive at all IMO- slow and lumbering.
This is all going to come down to Williams and his ability/inability to pick up the finer points of the game. I don't even think he's that good but the rest of the guys are washed IMO.
I would think Bell will 100% be the passing game back. He's a great blocker and receiver, even if he offers less than once did with the ball in his hands
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Insoxicated
Bell hasn't run well in half a decade.
He can catch very well, but he's not going to do much with it once he gets it. IMO his current value in the passing game is strong pass blocking / blitz pickup (which is valuable, but also can be learned more easily than many other RB skills), and as a safety-valve dump off candidate.
IF Williams can develop solid pass pro, that diminishes the entry point that Bell can shimmy through, as Williams is SIGNIFICANTLY more dynamic with the ball than Bell at this point in their careers. That said, let's not forget that Bell's primary asset (receiving) hasn't historically been a big part of the BAL scheme, and blitz pickup is less critical with Lamar than it would be with a pocket passer.
IMO we're looking at a Williams / Murray share with possibly a smattering of Bell. As the season wears on, if Williams can mature as a runner / pass protector... I can see his share increasing to the point he is a solid RB2 with forays into RB1 and RB3 territory.
He can catch very well, but he's not going to do much with it once he gets it. IMO his current value in the passing game is strong pass blocking / blitz pickup (which is valuable, but also can be learned more easily than many other RB skills), and as a safety-valve dump off candidate.
IF Williams can develop solid pass pro, that diminishes the entry point that Bell can shimmy through, as Williams is SIGNIFICANTLY more dynamic with the ball than Bell at this point in their careers. That said, let's not forget that Bell's primary asset (receiving) hasn't historically been a big part of the BAL scheme, and blitz pickup is less critical with Lamar than it would be with a pocket passer.
IMO we're looking at a Williams / Murray share with possibly a smattering of Bell. As the season wears on, if Williams can mature as a runner / pass protector... I can see his share increasing to the point he is a solid RB2 with forays into RB1 and RB3 territory.
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ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
Let's also not forget that, even after CEH's injury last year, Bell did nothing in KC, and when Clyde came back for the AFCCG/SB he didn't even sniff the field. It's entirely likely that he's as washed as Freeman.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
zamboni
Footballguy
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Yeah, on the TD, Murray was basically untouched behind 2 excellent blocks.
That said, he was significantly better at pass pro, and he always has been kind of a “take what the OL gives him” kind of RB.
IMO, Williams isn’t likely to learn pass pro on the fly in a trial by fire, and I’m fairly certain the Ravens don’t want to endanger their star QB in such an experiment, either.
I still believe whichever of the RBs best absorbs the RPO Pistol that the Ravens employ is the RB that they’re going to use the most.
My bet is on Murray. I believe the Ravens would happily sacrifice Williams breakaway quicks for the steady pulse of Murray’s plodding if it allows them to open their playbook substantially more. And even if Murray isn’t that fast, If using him allows the Ravens to get LJax into the run lane out of that formation, then that allows them to do so much more than they can with Williams.
I’m sure Williams will continue to be used in the passing game & to spell Murray (if he gets the bulk of the rushing attempts), but I don’t see them making Williams the lead dog behind week 1.
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Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Polemic takes of everything based off of week one can be easily brushed aside.
The question is what does the Ravens coaching staff want out of their rushing attack when they fully expect to reach the playoffs and contend for the SB.
We have seen upside of Ty. The mistakes are correctable and it wouldn't take years or months. He doesn't have to be a master of pass-pro, he just has to be good nuff. He doesn't have to have an analytic knowledge of the entire offense, he just has to zero-in on a few things.
We'll see soon enough how this backfield will shake out.
The question is what does the Ravens coaching staff want out of their rushing attack when they fully expect to reach the playoffs and contend for the SB.
We have seen upside of Ty. The mistakes are correctable and it wouldn't take years or months. He doesn't have to be a master of pass-pro, he just has to be good nuff. He doesn't have to have an analytic knowledge of the entire offense, he just has to zero-in on a few things.
We'll see soon enough how this backfield will shake out.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Due respect, but I disagree with the notion that Williams 1. Doesn’t have to be a master of pass pro, and 2. Doesn’t need knowledge of the entire offense.
The Ravens were forced to run a mostly vanilla offense with Williams out there. The QB runs were more scrambles when nothing was open than designed runs.
The Ravens entire offensive scheme is their brilliant use of RPO out of the pistol. All I’ve read about for 2 years is the genius of this offensive scheme to maximize LJax potential as a rushed & passer. He can pitch to the RB, throw the ball or keep it for a QB run, depending on the look the defense gives him.
If Williams fails to master that, he’s going to spend a lot of time on the bench. And if he can’t protect the QB (which some RBs can’t pick up in years, much less the short time you suggest) he may be relegated to special teams/breather back status.
We're all speculating- obviously Williams didn't have a good game in terms of blocking or running the RPO, but we don't know if he's bad at it or just had an off couple of plays. I do know he did well in the preseason with it and was praised by the coaches though (could have just been coach-speak). We also aren't privy to how things are going in practice and the film room.
I disagree about Murray- there's a chance he's just not in great shape and will get better, but he's far too slow right now to be the main back in this offense. You have to see the hole and hit it right away, and I just don't think he has the juice. For example, I think it's much more likely that Williams would have scored on Murray's TD than Murray would have scored on Williams'.
Again, no idea if/how much Williams will improve on those things, but the Ravens are in big trouble if he can't. None of the other 3 are good fits for what they want to do IMO.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Yeah, the Ravens offense is based on RPO and it worked. Lamar isn't a pocket passer. The Ravens don't wrap him up in bubble wrap, they entire offense is based around being able to run the ball to open up the passing attack.
They aren't afraid of letting Lamar get hit because their entire offense is built around him taking off where he's open to getting hit and he gets hit.
So the offense needs a RB who makes plays and a QB who they aren't afraid to take hits.
Ty wasn't being prepared or expected to take over but got his first start and made plays the other backs didn't make but 'shock' veteran RBs without the upside didn't make rookie mistakes.
That doesn't spell the death of Ty'Son.
As I said, this will play out over the next few weeks. Ty will improve and we'll see.
