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Respectful discussion and debate with Trump supporters requested: Topic # 1 Undocumented immigration (1 Viewer)

Henry Ford said:
I'm for the "Obama plan."  He deported more immigrants than any previous President and more than all of them before W. combined.  He did so by heavily ramping up "border crossing" deportations. You get caught crossing? See ya.  Back across immediately.  You've been here several years and aren't a dirtbag? Check in annually and if you stay not a dirtbag, you can stay.  
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Why didn't he provide a path to citizenship for that annual check in group?

 
Henry Ford said:
The Commish said:
Well, if we never find them, that means they aren't bothering anyone, right?  So what's the harm?  Or do I need to get my sarcasm meter adjusted?  This whole thing is getting more and more silly to me.  If Disney World can figure out a way to keep people who didn't pay for "extended hour" types of tickets and thus keeps them off the rides, I don't see why we can't do something similar with respect to our entitlements.
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It isn't sarcasm but it isn't my personal concern. A lot of people don't like the idea - I personally think that with a legal migrant work visa people would be pretty unlikely to disappear and lose that
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Well, if they can provide some meaningful, impactful issue that I am just not seeing, I am all ears.  Until then, this is how I'd approach it.  If they want to work here let them.  They can get their entitlements at home or pay out of pocket for entitlements here.  This, of course, requires a change in attitude and making it ok to reject people not from this country in the entitlement game.

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
Why didn't he provide a path to citizenship for that annual check in group?
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Who? Obama or GWB? I'm pretty sure they both tried. Congress was having none of it.  President doesn't get to declare paths to citizenship.  Closest Obama could come was the DREAM Act, offering eventual residency for people brought here as kids who became productive members of society, but it never passed.  

 
The Commish said:
So based on the little bit of reading this thread has presented me, it seem the issue with Mexico is over saturation from the country.  Policy seems to handle gross amounts of immigrants from other countries the same way.  Why do we have to make an exception for Mexico?  The more I think about it, the more I feel like some sort of "daily work" visa should be allowed.  What's the downside to that approach again?
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I'd like to see some stats on this saturation and future expectations.  Say we deport 5 million.  What impact does that have towards this "saturation"?

 
timschochet said:
Well obviously if somebody steals my Social Security number, that is a crime.

But- if an undocumented alien uses my Social Security number for the purpose of working, is that a detriment to me? Wouldn't I benefit from it later? After all, he (the undocumented guy) pays into my Social Security #, but never collects any benefits from it. Wouldn't I collect all the benefits from his employment when I retire? 
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This is what I'd like to know.

 
Yankee23Fan said:
Because people wake up?
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I'd imagine because September 11 happened, and immigration bills weren't very popular.  The last version submitted in 2001 was in August, 2001.  Didn't come up again for several years.  It's supported by the military, generally gets 50-60 sponsors to the bill, everyone claims to love it but have "reservations" and then it dies in the House or Senate.  Or both.

 
Henry Ford said:
I'd imagine because September 11 happened, and immigration bills weren't very popular.  The last version submitted in 2001 was in August, 2001.  Didn't come up again for several years.  It's supported by the military, generally gets 50-60 sponsors to the bill, everyone claims to love it but have "reservations" and then it dies in the House or Senate.  Or both.
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I wonder what might have happened if Obama used his honeymoon capital on immigration reform, then went on to ACA. We'll never know.

 
Jobber said:
This is what I'd like to know.
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It doesn't end up being a detriment unless the immigrant does something beyond using it to work and doesn't take full deductions.  For instance, if the immigrant uses it to open a credit card, get a mortgage, etc. that would be bad for you.

 
Henry Ford said:
It doesn't end up being a detriment unless the immigrant does something beyond using it to work and doesn't take full deductions.  For instance, if the immigrant uses it to open a credit card, get a mortgage, etc. that would be bad for you.
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Or if they somehow become a smashing success, they bump you into the @MarvinTScamper tax bracket ;)  

 
BowieMercs said:
I wonder what might have happened if Obama used his honeymoon capital on immigration reform, then went on to ACA. We'll never know.
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He tried, to some extent.  DREAM was one of the first major bills introduced into Congress during his Presidency - March, 2009.  It was referred to committee and died.  It was then filibustered in 2010 and they couldn't break it - 56-43.

 
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timschochet said:
Thanks Derek.

I want to especially focus on the bolded because I know that a lot of conservatives believe as you do about this, and I think it may represent the key disconnect between our two sides.

The main reason I don't refer to these people as illegal is because, at worst, they're breaking a misdemeanor by being here. Most studies that I have read demonstrate that undocumented people are on a whole actually MORE law abiding than documented people, and this makes sense if you stop to think about it, because they are more cautious about having to deal with authorities. That being said, there are plenty of exceptions, and unfortunately these make a lot of headlines.

But it's very problematic that you and so many others seem to group all undocumented people together with the worst, most violent criminals. That was part of President Trump's rhetoric from the beginning of his campaign and it bothered me tremendously; simply put, I think it's a false claim based on irrational fear. Based on your writing, you do not strike me as a stupid or irrational person, so its frustrating to me that you would seemingly share this attitude. 
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I dont have stats that say they commit more crimes and I also dont have stats that say they commit less crimes. What I do know is you thought it was ok to break a small law. In the absence of any factual data, I have no choice but to draw conclusions from what I am sure of....and that is they disregard our countries' immigration laws. And if they got a job, they faked a SSN, etc.

 
TobiasFunke said:
Another thing I would add to this is that in most cases there is no legal path to immigration for these people.  The law that they are breaking is one that they literally cannot comply with if they want to gain entry to the United States. 

My perspective on immigration would change considerably if Trump or anyone else actually created that figurative "great big door."
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I dont understand this logic. Just because there is no legal path for you to do something, doesnt mean you get to make your own rules. Seems like they are people are stomping their feet and saying "this isnt fair".

 
BowieMercs said:
Or if they somehow become a smashing success, they bump you into the @MarvinTScamper tax bracket ;)  
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But tax brackets are only for income over a certain amount.  So as long as they don't take deductions or file a return, it's unlikely you'd end up owing taxes.  And if you did, it would red flag and the IRS would probably take some action (though not enough - they tend to not inform people their SS#s are being used).

 
Henry Ford said:
It doesn't end up being a detriment unless the immigrant does something beyond using it to work and doesn't take full deductions.  For instance, if the immigrant uses it to open a credit card, get a mortgage, etc. that would be bad for you.
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i don't think he can use my SS # to get a credit card or a mortgage unless he uses my name and address as well. Then it really would be identity theft. But if he uses his own name and my SS#  they will just reject him out of hand when they run a credit check. 

 
Henry Ford said:
But tax brackets are only for income over a certain amount.  So as long as they don't take deductions or file a return, it's unlikely you'd end up owing taxes.  And if you did, it would red flag and the IRS would probably take some action (though not enough - they tend to not inform people their SS#s are being used).
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If they made $10K, I'd owe enough extra tax to be keenly aware something was wrong when I was penalized for under reporting and underpayment. 

 
derek245583 said:
I dont understand this logic. Just because there is no legal path for you to do something, doesnt mean you get to make your own rules. Seems like they are people are stomping their feet and saying "this isnt fair".
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No, it is a lot of people trying to escape war torn areas or from having no job and starving to death. So they are stomping their feet and trying to get some where that may have a chance at a better life.

 
BowieMercs said:
If they made $10K, I'd owe enough extra tax to be keenly aware something was wrong when I was penalized for under reporting and underpayment. 
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Only if they didn't pay that amount of tax. And tax would be withheld from their earnings, and they wouldn't file for a return.  So they probably would.

Like I said, the IRS often catches what's going on and doesn't tell you.  Seriously.

 
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Henry Ford said:
Only if they didn't pay that amount of tax. And tax would be withheld from their earnings, and they wouldn't file for a return.  So they probably would.

Like I said, the IRS often catches what's going on and doesn't tell you.  Seriously.
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but the tax on 10K is next to nothing vs the tax on 10K on top of the avg FBGs income. Just saying. IRS is not as smart as they let on.

 
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BowieMercs said:
but the tax on 10K is next to nothing vs the tax to 10K on top of the avg FBGs income. Just saying. IRS is not as smart as they let on.
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Wait, what?  I'm not sure what you're saying here.  It sounds like you think that if you make $90K you pay 25% on all of your income and if you make $100k you pay 28% on all your income.  But that's obviously not true, so I'm confused.

 
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whoknew said:
I've seen a lot of people in here say that there won't actually be a wall built. And I tend to agree because of cost, logistics, and Congress being against it.

Having said that, I think Trump absolutely 100% intends to build a wall. Its not a metaphor to him. And I think he will try to get it done.
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I think he intends to build walls in high risk, high traffic areas.  There are large parts of the border that are really difficult to navigate.  Not much point in building a wall there.

 
Henry Ford said:
Wait, what?  I'm not sure what you're saying here.  It sounds like you think that if you make $90K you pay 25% of your income and if you make $100k you pay 28% on all your income.  But that's obviously not true, so I'm confused.
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Go back to your tax return  & add in a fake 1099 for for $10,000.  Report your results here. 

 
BowieMercs said:
Go back to your tax return  & add in a fake 1099 for for $10,000.  Report your results here. 
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I'm not sure what you'd expect to happen, but I'd owe the percentage of my top tax bracket multiplied by $10,000.00 more in taxes.

 
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Good discussion for the most part.

But can we please stop with this "I'm not going to call them illegal" nonsense? They're breaking the law by being here and that makes them criminals. It doesn't matter whether its a victim-less crime or how serious you think the offense is.  It doesn't matter if they didn't have a legal way to come in.

If I decide to sit and look at the stars in a public park at 11:30 at night (when posted signs indicated that the park closes at dusk) I'm breaking the law. I'm there illegally. It doesn't matter that its just an infraction and that there's no victims. If a cop shows up, he can write me a ticket and tell me to get lost. And if refuse to comply, he can physically drag me out of there.

There's no legal way for me to gain access back stage at the Victoria's Secret fashion show. That doesn't mean that I get to sneak back there and just chill out in the dressing room.

I honestly don't know where I stand on all the complex issues that are part of this discussion. But when you say stuff like "I refuse to call them illegal because their presence is a misdemeanor at worst", you make it impossible to take you seriously. Regardless of your thoughts on immigration (whether you want them here or not) that thought process is 100% irrational.

 
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derek245583 said:
I dont understand this logic. Just because there is no legal path for you to do something, doesnt mean you get to make your own rules. Seems like they are people are stomping their feet and saying "this isnt fair".
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My logic is based on the well-founded assumption that our nation was founded by and intended to be a safe haven for immigrants. It's one thing to regulate immigration, it is another to provide absolutely no path.  

At some point your family was presumably admitted to his country from somewhere else, most likely legally.  Mine was.  And my family had no special skills or prearranged employment.  We came because we wanted to be part of this country and we were facing grim economic prospects and discrimination in the countries we came from, just like many of today's prospective immigrants. 

I don't like the idea of saying "well we made it it before an arbitrary cutoff, so the rest of you can go #### off."  You're focusing on legality, but I'm speaking about morality and what I think the law should be.

 
TLEF316 said:
Good discussion for the most part.

But can we please stop with this "I'm not going to call them illegal" nonsense? They're breaking the law by being here and that makes them criminals. It doesn't matter whether its a victim-less crime or how serious you think the offense is.  It doesn't matter if they didn't have a legal way to come in.

If I decide to sit and look at the stars in a public park at 11:30 at night (when posted signs indicated that the park closes at dusk) I'm breaking the law. I'm there illegally. It doesn't matter that its just an infraction and that there's no victims. If a cop shows up, he can write me a ticket and tell me to get lost. And if refuse to comply, he can physically drag me out of there.

There's no legal way for me to gain access back stage at the Victoria's Secret fashion show. That doesn't mean that I get to sneak back there and just chill out in the dressing room.

I honestly don't know where I stand on all the complex issues that are part of this discussion. But when you say stuff like "I refuse to call them illegal because their presence is a misdemeanor at worst", you make it impossible to take you seriously. Regardless of your thoughts on immigration (whether you want them here or not) that thought process is 100% irrational.
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What level of crime do you think entering the country illegally is? From a factual standpoint it's a misdemeanor. 

 
timschochet said:
I want it to be. 

And this is another major disconnect between us. You see them as a burden. I want them here. 
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I don't mind anyone here that do it leagally.  Just to open your borders and let anyone come and go is irresponsible to the citizens of this country, both from a security and economic standpoint.  There really isn't a good argument against that.  The left would love to turn this nation into a third world country.

 
JohnnyU said:
I don't mind anyone here that do it leagally.  Just to open your borders and let anyone come and go is irresponsible to the citizens of this country, both from a security and economic standpoint.  There really isn't a good argument against that.  The left would love to turn this nation into a third world country.
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This is not respectful discourse. 

 
TLEF316 said:
Good discussion for the most part.

But can we please stop with this "I'm not going to call them illegal" nonsense? They're breaking the law by being here and that makes them criminals. It doesn't matter whether its a victim-less crime or how serious you think the offense is.  It doesn't matter if they didn't have a legal way to come in.

If I decide to sit and look at the stars in a public park at 11:30 at night (when posted signs indicated that the park closes at dusk) I'm breaking the law. I'm there illegally. It doesn't matter that its just an infraction and that there's no victims. If a cop shows up, he can write me a ticket and tell me to get lost. And if refuse to comply, he can physically drag me out of there.

There's no legal way for me to gain access back stage at the Victoria's Secret fashion show. That doesn't mean that I get to sneak back there and just chill out in the dressing room.

I honestly don't know where I stand on all the complex issues that are part of this discussion. But when you say stuff like "I refuse to call them illegal because their presence is a misdemeanor at worst", you make it impossible to take you seriously. Regardless of your thoughts on immigration (whether you want them here or not) that thought process is 100% irrational.
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If you drive over the speed limit, once or regularly are you referred to as an illegal driver for the rest of your life? No.  In fact we don't even call people caught driving  without licenses that. We call them "unlicensed drivers" or we say they're in violation of the law but don't call them illegal drivers for the rest of their lives.

Its not about accuracy, it's about word choice. Some people think that referring to them as "illegal immigrants" unfairly stigmatizes them because we don't use that description for other types of people/ illicit actions.

Its not something I care that much about, there are far more important issues.  But that's the argument.

 
TobiasFunke said:
If you drive over the speed limit, once or regularly are you referred to as an illegal driver for the rest of your life? No.  In fact we don't even call people caught driving  without licenses that. We call them "unlicensed drivers" or we say they're in violation of the law but don't call them illegal drivers for the rest of their lives.

Its not about accuracy, it's about word choice. Some people think that referring to them as "illegal immigrants" unfairly stigmatizes them because we don't use that description for other types of people/ illicit actions.

Its not something I care that much about, there are far more important issues.  But that's the argument.
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We do call them speeders. I'd be willing to compromise and use "border jumpers."

 
Henry Ford said:
I'm not sure what you'd expect to happen, but I'd owe the percentage of my top tax bracket multiplied by $10,000.00 more in taxes.
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Exactly. We obviously had some sort of disconnect because I was under the impression you didn't think that was the case. 

 
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Henry Ford said:
What level of crime do you think entering the country illegally is? From a factual standpoint it's a misdemeanor. 
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I don't see how that's relevant to what I'm talking about. You aren't supposed to be able to reside in this country unless you go through the proper channels. If you do so, you're doing something illegal.

 
TLEF316 said:
I don't see how that's relevant to what I'm talking about. You aren't supposed to be able to reside in this country unless you go through the proper channels. If you do so, you're doing something illegal.
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Sure but you seem to have an issue with us calling it a misdemeanor. 

 
TobiasFunke said:
If you drive over the speed limit, once or regularly are you referred to as an illegal driver for the rest of your life? No.  In fact we don't even call people caught driving  without licenses that. We call them "unlicensed drivers" or we say they're in violation of the law but don't call them illegal drivers for the rest of their lives.

Its not about accuracy, it's about word choice. Some people think that referring to them as "illegal immigrants" unfairly stigmatizes them because we don't use that description for other types of people/ illicit actions.

Its not something I care that much about, there are far more important issues.  But that's the argument.
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The act of speeding is a crime, but once I stop doing it, I'm no longer breaking the law.

Someone who illegally enters the United States and stays here is breaking the law 24/7/365.

I understand that "undocumented" vs "illegal" is a stigma thing. I just don't agree that the "stigma" that comes with the term "illegal immigrant" is unfair. Its simply the truth. If someone caught me burglarizing a house, I'd be a "Convicted Felon" for the rest of my life. And I would have earned it.

Totally agree that there are more important issues. But if the folks on the pro-immigration side are going to go out of their way to play word games like this  (simply because its the liberal thing to do) its really hard for me (just me personally. I understand others wont feel the same way, which is fine) to take them seriously.

 
Henry Ford said:
Sure but you seem to have an issue with us calling it a misdemeanor. 
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How do you figure? I simply stated that I feel the degree of the crime isn't important when it comes to classifying those that commit it.

I don't think selling small amounts of weed is a big deal. But I still acknowledge that those that do so are criminals.

 
TLEF316 said:
How do you figure? I simply stated that I feel the degree of the crime isn't important when it comes to classifying those that commit it.

I don't think selling small amounts of weed is a big deal. But I still acknowledge that those that do so are criminals.
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I prefer "undocumented pusherman"

 
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