Ryan Braun wins Appeal! (1 Viewer)

[Carver]

I"ll ask again.. How (specifically) could the sample have been tampered with, to cause the results of the test? Please humor me.

Could time alter results therefore tampering it?

The piss could sit there for 20 years... and it wouldn't magically produce synthetic testosterone.

I have no idea if that is a true statement as I don't know the science behind it, do you? What if the conditions change (refrigeration vs. out)? Also, I don't know if we know that they found synthetic testosterone, just that there was an obscenely, three times the highest ever amount recorded in their testing, amount of regular testosterone (is there a difference?).As you can I see I know nothing which equals just about what everyone else knows.

1) No, time and/or temperature change won't make synthetic testosterone magically appear. That has been mentioned over and over again in numerous linked articles (to be fair, I'm not certain if Mrs. Pack has signed off on that assertion).2) three times the highest ever amount recorded in their testing - this is wrong in every respect. It has been variously reported his testosterone level was 20 to 30 times normal levels, but the Montreal lab has seen levels as high as 80 times normal.

Well hell, if it was only 20 to 30 times normal level and they have seen cases as high as 80, then I see no reason why they would think he was juicing.

 

[shadyridr]

It's a mat. And you jump to conclusions.

I think I remember reading somewhere that was the exact rational behind the guy doing what he did.

it was

 

[shadyridr]

I"ll ask again.. How (specifically) could the sample have been tampered with, to cause the results of the test? Please humor me.

Could time alter results therefore tampering it?

The piss could sit there for 20 years... and it wouldn't magically produce synthetic testosterone.

I have no idea if that is a true statement as I don't know the science behind it, do you? What if the conditions change (refrigeration vs. out)? Also, I don't know if we know that they found synthetic testosterone, just that there was an obscenely, three times the highest ever amount recorded in their testing, amount of regular testosterone (is there a difference?).As you can I see I know nothing which equals just about what everyone else knows.

something in physica about not being able to create matter

 

[urbanhack]

Where do we go from here?

 

[BobbyLayne]

Where do we go from here?

Testing for testosterone:
[*]The first test measures the amount of testosterone compared to the amount of one of it’s metabolites. If you dope you have a high ratio for a while because your body can’t process the testosterone fast enough. This is used for screening because it’s an easier test, but it’s quite variable. Braun had a ratio of 20:1; he doesn’t dispute this and presented no argument about why this test would be false. For reference 99% of healthy men have a value less than 4:1 and Floyd Landis was at 12:1 when he doped in the TdF. Still, there is maybe a very slight chance that someone could naturally have a 20:1 ratio.

[*]The second test is much more precise and looks at the carbon molecules within the testosterone. Carbon has two stable isotopes, C-12 and C-13. The testosterone formed by your own body will have a particular ratio of the two isotopes. Synthetic testosterone has a completely different ratio. If you dope you change the ratio of carbon isotopes in your testosterone. This cannot happen naturally. This cannot happen because the urine sample was mishandled. This cannot happen whether Fedex closes at 6pm on Saturdays or not.

Ryan Braun consumed synthetic testosterone, there is no doubt, no other possibility that is permitted within the laws of physics. If he wants to come forward with some explanation of how the testosterone accidentally got into his body then he should do so. I might even believe him because he has always seemed like a decent guy. But his defense at this point is based on a technicality that has no relevance to science or logic.

Oh, where do we go from here? Same place we've been going: attack the credibility of quoted sources, or insult the poster linking them.

 

[KingPrawn]

Where do we go from here?

Testing for testosterone:
[*]The first test measures the amount of testosterone compared to the amount of one of it’s metabolites. If you dope you have a high ratio for a while because your body can’t process the testosterone fast enough. This is used for screening because it’s an easier test, but it’s quite variable. Braun had a ratio of 20:1; he doesn’t dispute this and presented no argument about why this test would be false. For reference 99% of healthy men have a value less than 4:1 and Floyd Landis was at 12:1 when he doped in the TdF. Still, there is maybe a very slight chance that someone could naturally have a 20:1 ratio.

[*]The second test is much more precise and looks at the carbon molecules within the testosterone. Carbon has two stable isotopes, C-12 and C-13. The testosterone formed by your own body will have a particular ratio of the two isotopes. Synthetic testosterone has a completely different ratio. If you dope you change the ratio of carbon isotopes in your testosterone. This cannot happen naturally. This cannot happen because the urine sample was mishandled. This cannot happen whether Fedex closes at 6pm on Saturdays or not.

Ryan Braun consumed synthetic testosterone, there is no doubt, no other possibility that is permitted within the laws of physics. If he wants to come forward with some explanation of how the testosterone accidentally got into his body then he should do so. I might even believe him because he has always seemed like a decent guy. But his defense at this point is based on a technicality that has no relevance to science or logic.

Oh, where do we go from here? Same place we've been going: attack the credibility of quoted sources, or insult the poster linking them.

Thank you for that explanation. I do think Braun should come forward with a more detailed explanation but do you think he may not right now due to possible legal action he might take in the future? And do you think that rather than fighting the results of the test the easiest way to overturn the 50 game suspension was to contest the chain of command issue? Or for that matter, we don't know he didn't contest the results of the test. All we know is that that is the reason the arbitrator gave for ruling in Braun's favor.

 

[Carver]

Where do we go from here?

Testing for testosterone:
[*]The first test measures the amount of testosterone compared to the amount of one of it’s metabolites. If you dope you have a high ratio for a while because your body can’t process the testosterone fast enough. This is used for screening because it’s an easier test, but it’s quite variable. Braun had a ratio of 20:1; he doesn’t dispute this and presented no argument about why this test would be false. For reference 99% of healthy men have a value less than 4:1 and Floyd Landis was at 12:1 when he doped in the TdF. Still, there is maybe a very slight chance that someone could naturally have a 20:1 ratio.

[*]The second test is much more precise and looks at the carbon molecules within the testosterone. Carbon has two stable isotopes, C-12 and C-13. The testosterone formed by your own body will have a particular ratio of the two isotopes. Synthetic testosterone has a completely different ratio. If you dope you change the ratio of carbon isotopes in your testosterone. This cannot happen naturally. This cannot happen because the urine sample was mishandled. This cannot happen whether Fedex closes at 6pm on Saturdays or not.

Ryan Braun consumed synthetic testosterone, there is no doubt, no other possibility that is permitted within the laws of physics. If he wants to come forward with some explanation of how the testosterone accidentally got into his body then he should do so. I might even believe him because he has always seemed like a decent guy. But his defense at this point is based on a technicality that has no relevance to science or logic.

Oh, where do we go from here? Same place we've been going: attack the credibility of quoted sources, or insult the poster linking them.

I thoroughly enjoy your postings Bobby. I also agree all around.

 

[Wilbur Wood]

ESPN now reporting that the Braun specimen was not refrigerated but kept in a tupperware container.

Many constituents of urine support the growth of such bacteria, and metabolism presents a serious problem in drug testing because of the risk of falsifying doping test results. In this regard, urine contains several steroids that are utilized by bacterial enzymes that can interconvert endogenous steroids to the extent of producing testosterone (T) in the urine.

Remember Diane Mohdal

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/d...00/2559981.stm

"The five-strong British Athletic Federation (BAF) panel in London delivered the verdict after a two-day disciplinary hearing and upheld a positive drugs test made after a race in Portugal on 18 June.

It dismissed claims the high level of testosterone in her urine - 42 times greater than normal - was caused by mishandling in the Portuguese laboratory."

"Diane Modahl was cleared of drug taking a year later after an independent appeals panel accepted evidence bacterial activity could have increased testosterone levels while the sample was not refrigerated."

There would be no grounds to test Braun's B sample for the presence of synthetic testosterone if his A sample hadn't been mishandled and allowed bacterial elevation to occur to boost up above the threshold.

Per Will Carroll Braun's defense team replicated this result with a later sample of Braun's urine.

Certainly enough cause for "reasonable doubt"

 

[Mr.Pack]

ESPN now reporting that the Braun specimen was not refrigerated but kept in a tupperware container.Many constituents of urine support the growth of such bacteria, and metabolism presents a serious problem in drug testing because of the risk of falsifying doping test results. In this regard, urine contains several steroids that are utilized by bacterial enzymes that can interconvert endogenous steroids to the extent of producing testosterone (T) in the urine.Remember Diane Mohdalhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/d...00/2559981.stm"The five-strong British Athletic Federation (BAF) panel in London delivered the verdict after a two-day disciplinary hearing and upheld a positive drugs test made after a race in Portugal on 18 June.It dismissed claims the high level of testosterone in her urine - 42 times greater than normal - was caused by mishandling in the Portuguese laboratory.""Diane Modahl was cleared of drug taking a year later after an independent appeals panel accepted evidence bacterial activity could have increased testosterone levels while the sample was not refrigerated."There would be no grounds to test Braun's B sample for the presence of synthetic testosterone if his A sample hadn't been mishandled and allowed bacterial elevation to occur to boost up above the threshold.Per Will Carroll Braun's defense team replicated this result with a later sample of Braun's urine.Certainly enough cause for "reasonable doubt"

Sorry, you're a Brewer fan. Anything you post will be taken with a grain of salt.He's as guilty as they come.

 

[Carver]

ESPN now reporting that the Braun specimen was not refrigerated but kept in a tupperware container.

Many constituents of urine support the growth of such bacteria, and metabolism presents a serious problem in drug testing because of the risk of falsifying doping test results. In this regard, urine contains several steroids that are utilized by bacterial enzymes that can interconvert endogenous steroids to the extent of producing testosterone (T) in the urine.

Remember Diane Mohdal

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/d...00/2559981.stm

"The five-strong British Athletic Federation (BAF) panel in London delivered the verdict after a two-day disciplinary hearing and upheld a positive drugs test made after a race in Portugal on 18 June.

It dismissed claims the high level of testosterone in her urine - 42 times greater than normal - was caused by mishandling in the Portuguese laboratory."

"Diane Modahl was cleared of drug taking a year later after an independent appeals panel accepted evidence bacterial activity could have increased testosterone levels while the sample was not refrigerated."

There would be no grounds to test Braun's B sample for the presence of synthetic testosterone if his A sample hadn't been mishandled and allowed bacterial elevation to occur to boost up above the threshold.

Per Will Carroll Braun's defense team replicated this result with a later sample of Braun's urine.

Certainly enough cause for "reasonable doubt"

The testosterone formed by your own body will have a particular ratio of the two isotopes. Synthetic testosterone has a completely different ratio. If you dope you change the ratio of carbon isotopes in your testosterone. This cannot happen naturally. This cannot happen because the urine sample was mishandled.

 

[BobbyLayne]

ESPN now reporting that the Braun specimen was not refrigerated but kept in a tupperware container.

Many constituents of urine support the growth of such bacteria, and metabolism presents a serious problem in drug testing because of the risk of falsifying doping test results. In this regard, urine contains several steroids that are utilized by bacterial enzymes that can interconvert endogenous steroids to the extent of producing testosterone (T) in the urine.

Remember Diane Mohdal

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/d...00/2559981.stm

"The five-strong British Athletic Federation (BAF) panel in London delivered the verdict after a two-day disciplinary hearing and upheld a positive drugs test made after a race in Portugal on 18 June.

It dismissed claims the high level of testosterone in her urine - 42 times greater than normal - was caused by mishandling in the Portuguese laboratory."

"Diane Modahl was cleared of drug taking a year later after an independent appeals panel accepted evidence bacterial activity could have increased testosterone levels while the sample was not refrigerated."

There would be no grounds to test Braun's B sample for the presence of synthetic testosterone if his A sample hadn't been mishandled and allowed bacterial elevation to occur to boost up above the threshold.

Per Will Carroll Braun's defense team replicated this result with a later sample of Braun's urine.

Certainly enough cause for "reasonable doubt"

The bottles are tamper-proof, and if you open the bottle to slip something in, then bacteria will also enter from the surrounding air, and a bacterial culture test will show it. The Montreal lab, in fact, conducted a bacterial culture test afterwards (a fact noted in several linked articles within this thread) and there is no evidence of tampering with the urine sample. There was no bacteria present.His B sample demonstrated the presence of synthetic testosterone - which cannot be produced by any combination of time and temperature.

The Diane Modahl doesn't seem to be on point at all; her test did not reveal the presence of synthetic testosterone.

 

[Carver]

ESPN now reporting that the Braun specimen was not refrigerated but kept in a tupperware container.

Many constituents of urine support the growth of such bacteria, and metabolism presents a serious problem in drug testing because of the risk of falsifying doping test results. In this regard, urine contains several steroids that are utilized by bacterial enzymes that can interconvert endogenous steroids to the extent of producing testosterone (T) in the urine.

Remember Diane Mohdal

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/d...00/2559981.stm

"The five-strong British Athletic Federation (BAF) panel in London delivered the verdict after a two-day disciplinary hearing and upheld a positive drugs test made after a race in Portugal on 18 June.

It dismissed claims the high level of testosterone in her urine - 42 times greater than normal - was caused by mishandling in the Portuguese laboratory."

"Diane Modahl was cleared of drug taking a year later after an independent appeals panel accepted evidence bacterial activity could have increased testosterone levels while the sample was not refrigerated."

There would be no grounds to test Braun's B sample for the presence of synthetic testosterone if his A sample hadn't been mishandled and allowed bacterial elevation to occur to boost up above the threshold.

Per Will Carroll Braun's defense team replicated this result with a later sample of Braun's urine.

Certainly enough cause for "reasonable doubt"

The bottles are tamper-proof, and if you open the bottle to slip something in, then bacteria will also enter from the surrounding air, and a bacterial culture test will show it. The Montreal lab, in fact, conducted a bacterial culture test afterwards (a fact noted in several linked articles within this thread) and there is no evidence of tampering with the urine sample. There was no bacteria present.His B sample demonstrated the presence of synthetic testosterone - which cannot be produced by any combination of time and temperature.

The Diane Modahl doesn't seem to be on point at all; her test did not reveal the presence of synthetic testosterone.

That whole angle is moot anyway.It's not like someone could just pop it open and pour s-test into the piss to achieve those results. That's not how it works.

 

[Mr. Know-It-All]

would you feel differently if you knew the following...that tupperware container, it was made of.....

synthetic testosterone!

 

[Carver]

would you feel differently if you knew the following...that tupperware container, it was made of.....synthetic testosterone!

GAME CHANGER!!!! My mind = BLOWN.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Where do we go from here?

Culver's imo.Flavor of the day is, "Is it Peestachio?"

 

[B-Deep]

are we still debating this cheating *******?

Thanks Ryan for reminding us the "steroid Era" Baseball so desperately wants to put behind them is still alive and kicking.

 

[Maude]

Lyin Fraud?

 

[B-Deep]

Lyin Fraud?

I likeRoiden Fraud

 

[GunslingerEnder]

The best explanation I have is that we aren't supposed to know it even happened so as far as I'm concerned it never did.

But, for the record he doesn't have to explain anything because a mistake was made and there is no benefit to him to bring it up again.

 

[pantagrapher]

The best explanation I have is that we aren't supposed to know it even happened so as far as I'm concerned it never did.

That's really your best?

 

[Maude]

The best explanation I have is that we aren't supposed to know it even happened so as far as I'm concerned it never did.But, for the record he doesn't have to explain anything because a mistake was made and there is no benefit to him to bring it up again.

Lyin Fraud still tested positive. Cannot deny that.

 

[pantagrapher]

The best explanation I have is that we aren't supposed to know it even happened so as far as I'm concerned it never did.But, for the record he doesn't have to explain anything because a mistake was made and there is no benefit to him to bring it up again.

Lyin Fraud still tested positive. Cannot deny that.

But he can deny he ever heard about it! It's like if you find out your wife is cheating but were never supposed to know.

 

[GunslingerEnder]

If it was never leaked like it wasn't suppossed to be its not an issue. You can analogize all you want but he got screwed and then the system screwed itself. Why does he need to prove anything to anyone? And it wasn't juicing for the people whaao don't understand the difference. He won, get over it. He owes u nothing.

And....that is exactly what you will get.

 

[Maude]

If it was never leaked like it wasn't suppossed to be its not an issue. You can analogize all you want but he got screwed and then the system screwed itself. Why does he need to prove anything to anyone? And it wasn't juicing for the people whaao don't understand the difference. He won, get over it. He owes u nothing.And....that is exactly what you will get.

So you're saying absolutely that Lyin Fraud never took steroids? Can you prove it? Because he tested positive for sythetic steroids. The results are not usable, but the results are unequivocal nonetheless.

 

[B-Deep]

If it was never leaked like it wasn't suppossed to be its not an issue. You can analogize all you want but he got screwed and then the system screwed itself. Why does he need to prove anything to anyone? And it wasn't juicing for the people whaao don't understand the difference. He won, get over it. He owes u nothing.And....that is exactly what you will get.

and we, the American public, are free to form our own opinions on him. If he doesn't like the number of people that think he is a cheater he can get over it. We owe him nothing.

 

[dparker713]

The best explanation I have is that we aren't supposed to know it even happened so as far as I'm concerned it never did.But, for the record he doesn't have to explain anything because a mistake was made and there is no benefit to him to bring it up again.

Lyin Fraud still tested positive. Cannot deny that.

The test includes the protocols, they cannot be separated. So, the test returned a nullset, not a positive result.

 

[pantagrapher]

The best explanation I have is that we aren't supposed to know it even happened so as far as I'm concerned it never did.But, for the record he doesn't have to explain anything because a mistake was made and there is no benefit to him to bring it up again.

Lyin Fraud still tested positive. Cannot deny that.

The test includes the protocols, they cannot be separated. So, the test returned a nullset, not a positive result.

Really grasping here.

 

[dparker713]

The best explanation I have is that we aren't supposed to know it even happened so as far as I'm concerned it never did.But, for the record he doesn't have to explain anything because a mistake was made and there is no benefit to him to bring it up again.

Lyin Fraud still tested positive. Cannot deny that.

The test includes the protocols, they cannot be separated. So, the test returned a nullset, not a positive result.

Really grasping here.

Basic science actually.

 

[Monkeyface Prickleback]

So what becomes of this season? How does he take them? Does he end up doing a Gagne?

 

[KingPrawn]

I see a lot of references in this thread that he tested positive for synthetic testosterone. Do we know for sure they were synthetic testosterone?

Also heard a report today that Braun took a lie detector test and passed it. It was referred to on ESPN radio in Milwaukee.

I don't know if Braun cheated or not but together with the mishandling of the sample, the reports of Braun's representatives re-creating the scenario and coming up with higher levels of testosterone in the sample, Braun offering to take a DNA test to prove it wasn't his sample, the reports of a possible lie detector test, etc. I think it's idiotic for anyone to come in here and state with 100% certainty that Braun cheated.

 

[Maude]

I see a lot of references in this thread that he tested positive for synthetic testosterone. Do we know for sure they were synthetic testosterone?

Also heard a report today that Braun took a lie detector test and passed it. It was referred to on ESPN radio in Milwaukee.

I don't know if Braun cheated or not but together with the mishandling of the sample, the reports of Braun's representatives re-creating the scenario and coming up with higher levels of testosterone in the sample, Braun offering to take a DNA test to prove it wasn't his sample, the reports of a possible lie detector test, etc. I think it's idiotic for anyone to come in here and state with 100% certainty that Braun cheated.

His sample tested for high levels of testosterone... 20 to 30 times higher than normal. The sample was then tested for endogenous vs. exogenous testosterone. In other words, was the testosterone made by the body or was it from an outside source. And this test came back as exogenous testosterone, i.e. synthetic. These results are indisputable.The collection procedures are in dispute, but the results of the tests are not.

 

[KingPrawn]

I see a lot of references in this thread that he tested positive for synthetic testosterone. Do we know for sure they were synthetic testosterone?

Also heard a report today that Braun took a lie detector test and passed it. It was referred to on ESPN radio in Milwaukee.

I don't know if Braun cheated or not but together with the mishandling of the sample, the reports of Braun's representatives re-creating the scenario and coming up with higher levels of testosterone in the sample, Braun offering to take a DNA test to prove it wasn't his sample, the reports of a possible lie detector test, etc. I think it's idiotic for anyone to come in here and state with 100% certainty that Braun cheated.

His sample tested for high levels of testosterone... 20 to 30 times higher than normal. The sample was then tested for endogenous vs. exogenous testosterone. In other words, was the testosterone made by the body or was it from an outside source. And this test came back as exogenous testosterone, i.e. synthetic. These results are indisputable.The collection procedures are in dispute, but the results of the tests are not.

Thanks for the info. Do you have a link please? Who reported this?

 

[[icon]]

at all the people in here arguing that he wasn't juicing in light of the massive levels of synthetic testosterone in his bloodstream...

 

[Mr.Pack]

Proof

 

[[icon]]

I see a lot of references in this thread that he tested positive for synthetic testosterone. Do we know for sure they were synthetic testosterone?

Also heard a report today that Braun took a lie detector test and passed it. It was referred to on ESPN radio in Milwaukee.

I don't know if Braun cheated or not but together with the mishandling of the sample, the reports of Braun's representatives re-creating the scenario and coming up with higher levels of testosterone in the sample, Braun offering to take a DNA test to prove it wasn't his sample, the reports of a possible lie detector test, etc. I think it's idiotic for anyone to come in here and state with 100% certainty that Braun cheated.

His sample tested for high levels of testosterone... 20 to 30 times higher than normal. The sample was then tested for endogenous vs. exogenous testosterone. In other words, was the testosterone made by the body or was it from an outside source. And this test came back as exogenous testosterone, i.e. synthetic. These results are indisputable.The collection procedures are in dispute, but the results of the tests are not.

Thanks for the info. Do you have a link please? Who reported this?

Cnn, NY Daily News, MLB.com, and more. Google is your friend. From the NY Daily News:

Convincing and credible as Ryan Braun may sound in proclaiming his innocence after winning his appeal of a failed drug test over a technicality in the chain of custody, one thing can not be overlooked: There’s no dispute by any of the parties involved that a banned substance, exogenous testosterone, was present in his sample - and that there was absolutely no evidence that the triple-sealed package, though delayed 44 hours by the collector in its shipment to the World Anti-Doping laboratory in Montreal, had in any way been tampered with. So Braun can say all he wants about not having ever failed a previous drug test, but he cannot explain how and why there was a banned substance in his sample - and that his testosterone-to-epitestosterone ratio, elevated 16 points higher than the trigger point for a positive test, would have conceivably given him a performance edge other players didn’t have.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/a-hard-line-stance-ryan-braun-case-mlb-casts-suspicion-baseball-top-assets-article-1.1028517#ixzz1nd37DgfiFrom ESPN:

The positive result was triggered by elevated levels of testosterone in Braun's system, the sources told "Outside the Lines." A subsequent, more comprehensive test revealed the testosterone was synthetic -- not produced by Braun's body.

Every individual naturally produces testosterone and a substance called epitestosterone, typically at a ratio of 1-to-1. In Major League Baseball, if the ratio comes in at 4-to-1 or higher during testing, a player is deemed to have tested positive. The sources did not indicate how high above the threshold Braun's sample tested.

To affirm the results and strengthen its case, MLB asked the World Anti-Doping Agency lab in Montreal, which conducts its testing, to perform a secondary test to determine whether the testosterone spike resulted from natural variations within Braun's body or from an artificial source. The test indicated the testosterone was exogenous, meaning it came from outside his body.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/7338271/ryan-braun-milwaukee-brewers-tests-positive-performance-enhancing-drug

 

[the moops]

Do we know for sure they were synthetic testosterone?

Jesus ####### christ dude.

 

[dparker713]

I see a lot of references in this thread that he tested positive for synthetic testosterone. Do we know for sure they were synthetic testosterone?

Also heard a report today that Braun took a lie detector test and passed it. It was referred to on ESPN radio in Milwaukee.

I don't know if Braun cheated or not but together with the mishandling of the sample, the reports of Braun's representatives re-creating the scenario and coming up with higher levels of testosterone in the sample, Braun offering to take a DNA test to prove it wasn't his sample, the reports of a possible lie detector test, etc. I think it's idiotic for anyone to come in here and state with 100% certainty that Braun cheated.

His sample tested for high levels of testosterone... 20 to 30 times higher than normal. The sample was then tested for endogenous vs. exogenous testosterone. In other words, was the testosterone made by the body or was it from an outside source. And this test came back as exogenous testosterone, i.e. synthetic. These results are indisputable.The collection procedures are in dispute, but the results of the tests are not.

Unpossible to dispute assertions from anonymous sources. They were so accurate leading up to the Iraq War, who could doubt them now?

 

[Wilbur Wood]

ESPN now reporting that the Braun specimen was not refrigerated but kept in a tupperware container.

Many constituents of urine support the growth of such bacteria, and metabolism presents a serious problem in drug testing because of the risk of falsifying doping test results. In this regard, urine contains several steroids that are utilized by bacterial enzymes that can interconvert endogenous steroids to the extent of producing testosterone (T) in the urine.

Remember Diane Mohdal

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/d...00/2559981.stm

"The five-strong British Athletic Federation (BAF) panel in London delivered the verdict after a two-day disciplinary hearing and upheld a positive drugs test made after a race in Portugal on 18 June.

It dismissed claims the high level of testosterone in her urine - 42 times greater than normal - was caused by mishandling in the Portuguese laboratory."

"Diane Modahl was cleared of drug taking a year later after an independent appeals panel accepted evidence bacterial activity could have increased testosterone levels while the sample was not refrigerated."

There would be no grounds to test Braun's B sample for the presence of synthetic testosterone if his A sample hadn't been mishandled and allowed bacterial elevation to occur to boost up above the threshold.

Per Will Carroll Braun's defense team replicated this result with a later sample of Braun's urine.

Certainly enough cause for "reasonable doubt"

The bottles are tamper-proof, and if you open the bottle to slip something in, then bacteria will also enter from the surrounding air, and a bacterial culture test will show it. The Montreal lab, in fact, conducted a bacterial culture test afterwards (a fact noted in several linked articles within this thread) and there is no evidence of tampering with the urine sample. There was no bacteria present.His B sample demonstrated the presence of synthetic testosterone - which cannot be produced by any combination of time and temperature.

The Diane Modahl doesn't seem to be on point at all; her test did not reveal the presence of synthetic testosterone.

I realize that reading comprehension is lacking with some so I will type slowly.

The bacterial effects on an unrefrigerated urine sample for 2 days can cause an elevation in said samples T:ET ratio. This happened in the Mohdal case. This also was proven by Braun's defense team in a follow-on sample (see Will Carroll's si.com article). There would be zero basis to check for synthetic testosterone if the T:ET ratio was not above 4:1. It quite plausibly would have been had it not been for the mis-handling of the sample by the tester (or his son, who he unexplainably brought into the picture on the whole affair). There is no need to open the sample as this is a natural process caused by bacteria. This is reasonable doubt and not a technicality. It is not against the testing rules of MLB to have fake testosterone in one's urine if the T:ET levels are < 4:1

 

[parasaurolophus]

Why do they even bother with the first test?

 

[KingPrawn]

Do we know for sure they were synthetic testosterone?

Jesus ####### christ dude.

Excuse me for asking a simple question. I didn't know if it was reported that the testosterone was synthetic or if it was just speculation by those in this thread. But thanks anyway for your thoughtful input.

 

[BobbyLayne]

ESPN now reporting that the Braun specimen was not refrigerated but kept in a tupperware container.

Many constituents of urine support the growth of such bacteria, and metabolism presents a serious problem in drug testing because of the risk of falsifying doping test results. In this regard, urine contains several steroids that are utilized by bacterial enzymes that can interconvert endogenous steroids to the extent of producing testosterone (T) in the urine.

Remember Diane Mohdal

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/d...00/2559981.stm

"The five-strong British Athletic Federation (BAF) panel in London delivered the verdict after a two-day disciplinary hearing and upheld a positive drugs test made after a race in Portugal on 18 June.

It dismissed claims the high level of testosterone in her urine - 42 times greater than normal - was caused by mishandling in the Portuguese laboratory."

"Diane Modahl was cleared of drug taking a year later after an independent appeals panel accepted evidence bacterial activity could have increased testosterone levels while the sample was not refrigerated."

There would be no grounds to test Braun's B sample for the presence of synthetic testosterone if his A sample hadn't been mishandled and allowed bacterial elevation to occur to boost up above the threshold.

Per Will Carroll Braun's defense team replicated this result with a later sample of Braun's urine.

Certainly enough cause for "reasonable doubt"

The bottles are tamper-proof, and if you open the bottle to slip something in, then bacteria will also enter from the surrounding air, and a bacterial culture test will show it. The Montreal lab, in fact, conducted a bacterial culture test afterwards (a fact noted in several linked articles within this thread) and there is no evidence of tampering with the urine sample. There was no bacteria present.His B sample demonstrated the presence of synthetic testosterone - which cannot be produced by any combination of time and temperature.

The Diane Modahl doesn't seem to be on point at all; her test did not reveal the presence of synthetic testosterone.

I realize that reading comprehension is lacking with some so I will type slowly.

The bacterial effects on an unrefrigerated urine sample for 2 days can cause an elevation in said samples T:ET ratio. This happened in the Mohdal case. This also was proven by Braun's defense team in a follow-on sample (see Will Carroll's si.com article). There would be zero basis to check for synthetic testosterone if the T:ET ratio was not above 4:1. It quite plausibly would have been had it not been for the mis-handling of the sample by the tester (or his son, who he unexplainably brought into the picture on the whole affair). There is no need to open the sample as this is a natural process caused by bacteria. This is reasonable doubt and not a technicality. It is not against the testing rules of MLB to have fake testosterone in one's urine if the T:ET levels are < 4:1

The seals

on

the

sample

were

unbroken

when

it

arrived

at

the

lab,

and

standard

lab

tests

on

the

sample

showed

that

it

had

not

degraded.

 

[Mr.Pack]

ESPN now reporting that the Braun specimen was not refrigerated but kept in a tupperware container.

Many constituents of urine support the growth of such bacteria, and metabolism presents a serious problem in drug testing because of the risk of falsifying doping test results. In this regard, urine contains several steroids that are utilized by bacterial enzymes that can interconvert endogenous steroids to the extent of producing testosterone (T) in the urine.

Remember Diane Mohdal

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/d...00/2559981.stm

"The five-strong British Athletic Federation (BAF) panel in London delivered the verdict after a two-day disciplinary hearing and upheld a positive drugs test made after a race in Portugal on 18 June.

It dismissed claims the high level of testosterone in her urine - 42 times greater than normal - was caused by mishandling in the Portuguese laboratory."

"Diane Modahl was cleared of drug taking a year later after an independent appeals panel accepted evidence bacterial activity could have increased testosterone levels while the sample was not refrigerated."

There would be no grounds to test Braun's B sample for the presence of synthetic testosterone if his A sample hadn't been mishandled and allowed bacterial elevation to occur to boost up above the threshold.

Per Will Carroll Braun's defense team replicated this result with a later sample of Braun's urine.

Certainly enough cause for "reasonable doubt"

The bottles are tamper-proof, and if you open the bottle to slip something in, then bacteria will also enter from the surrounding air, and a bacterial culture test will show it. The Montreal lab, in fact, conducted a bacterial culture test afterwards (a fact noted in several linked articles within this thread) and there is no evidence of tampering with the urine sample. There was no bacteria present.His B sample demonstrated the presence of synthetic testosterone - which cannot be produced by any combination of time and temperature.

The Diane Modahl doesn't seem to be on point at all; her test did not reveal the presence of synthetic testosterone.

I realize that reading comprehension is lacking with some so I will type slowly.

The bacterial effects on an unrefrigerated urine sample for 2 days can cause an elevation in said samples T:ET ratio. This happened in the Mohdal case. This also was proven by Braun's defense team in a follow-on sample (see Will Carroll's si.com article). There would be zero basis to check for synthetic testosterone if the T:ET ratio was not above 4:1. It quite plausibly would have been had it not been for the mis-handling of the sample by the tester (or his son, who he unexplainably brought into the picture on the whole affair). There is no need to open the sample as this is a natural process caused by bacteria. This is reasonable doubt and not a technicality. It is not against the testing rules of MLB to have fake testosterone in one's urine if the T:ET levels are < 4:1

The seals

on

the

sample

were

unbroken

when

it

arrived

at

the

lab,

and

standard

lab

tests

on

the

sample

showed

that

it

had

not

degraded.

Wow, just when I thought you couldn't be a bigger ####### dooshbag, you go and do this and cement my thoughts about you.

 

[BobbyLayne]

Oh, where do we go from here? Same place we've been going: attack the credibility of quoted sources, or insult the poster linking them.

 

[Monkeyface Prickleback]

ESPN now reporting that the Braun specimen was not refrigerated but kept in a tupperware container.

Many constituents of urine support the growth of such bacteria, and metabolism presents a serious problem in drug testing because of the risk of falsifying doping test results. In this regard, urine contains several steroids that are utilized by bacterial enzymes that can interconvert endogenous steroids to the extent of producing testosterone (T) in the urine.

Remember Diane Mohdal

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/d...00/2559981.stm

"The five-strong British Athletic Federation (BAF) panel in London delivered the verdict after a two-day disciplinary hearing and upheld a positive drugs test made after a race in Portugal on 18 June.

It dismissed claims the high level of testosterone in her urine - 42 times greater than normal - was caused by mishandling in the Portuguese laboratory."

"Diane Modahl was cleared of drug taking a year later after an independent appeals panel accepted evidence bacterial activity could have increased testosterone levels while the sample was not refrigerated."

There would be no grounds to test Braun's B sample for the presence of synthetic testosterone if his A sample hadn't been mishandled and allowed bacterial elevation to occur to boost up above the threshold.

Per Will Carroll Braun's defense team replicated this result with a later sample of Braun's urine.

Certainly enough cause for "reasonable doubt"

The bottles are tamper-proof, and if you open the bottle to slip something in, then bacteria will also enter from the surrounding air, and a bacterial culture test will show it. The Montreal lab, in fact, conducted a bacterial culture test afterwards (a fact noted in several linked articles within this thread) and there is no evidence of tampering with the urine sample. There was no bacteria present.His B sample demonstrated the presence of synthetic testosterone - which cannot be produced by any combination of time and temperature.

The Diane Modahl doesn't seem to be on point at all; her test did not reveal the presence of synthetic testosterone.

I realize that reading comprehension is lacking with some so I will type slowly.

The bacterial effects on an unrefrigerated urine sample for 2 days can cause an elevation in said samples T:ET ratio. This happened in the Mohdal case. This also was proven by Braun's defense team in a follow-on sample (see Will Carroll's si.com article). There would be zero basis to check for synthetic testosterone if the T:ET ratio was not above 4:1. It quite plausibly would have been had it not been for the mis-handling of the sample by the tester (or his son, who he unexplainably brought into the picture on the whole affair). There is no need to open the sample as this is a natural process caused by bacteria. This is reasonable doubt and not a technicality. It is not against the testing rules of MLB to have fake testosterone in one's urine if the T:ET levels are < 4:1

The seals

on

the

sample

were

unbroken

when

it

arrived

at

the

lab,

and

standard

lab

tests

on

the

sample

showed

that

it

had

not

degraded.

Wow, just when I thought you couldn't be a bigger ####### dooshbag, you go and do this and cement my thoughts about you.

I thought it was hilarious.

 

[Maude]

Link

A man identifying himself as the collector who took Ryan Braun's urine samples last fall said he followed the same protocol with the Milwaukee Brewers slugger as he had with hundreds of previous samples.

In an email sent Tuesday to ESPN The Magazine's Buster Olney, Dino Laurenzi Jr., said he issued the statement "to set the record straight" about his role in testing Braun, whose 50-game suspension under baseball's drug policy was overturned Thursday.

Laurenzi said that at the time of the test, he obtained a signature from the NL MVP, stipulating that the samples were capped and sealed in his presence.

"This situation has caused great emotional distress for me and my family. I have worked hard my entire life, have performed my job duties with integrity and professionalism, and have done so with respect to this matter and all other collections in which I have participated," Laurenzi said, directing all further requests for comment to his lawyer.

Braun tested positive in October for elevated testosterone, and ESPN's "Outside The Lines" revealed the positive test in December. His case marked the first time a baseball player has successfully challenged a drug-related penalty in a grievance.

Friday, Braun proclaimed his innocence at a news conference. He said the collector, whom he did not identify by name, had kept the samples for 44 hours in his home, believing that the FedEx office he was to use to ship the samples for testing was closed.

Braun said Friday that at least five FedEx locations within 5 miles were open until 9 p.m. ET and there also was a 24-hour location. He said the sample wasn't left with FedEx until 1:30 p.m. on Oct. 3.

Braun said because of the delay, the testing was "fatally flawed."

"I don't honestly know what happened to it in that 44-hour period," he said.

Tuesday, Laurenzi said he was following protocols set by Comprehensive Drug Testing, his employer, in keeping the samples until they could be shipped. He said the samples never left his custody and that no one other than his wife was in his home while the samples were stored.

"Given the lateness of the hour that I completed my collections, there was no FedEx office located within 50 miles of Miller Park that would ship packages that day or Sunday. Therefore, the earliest that the specimens could be shipped was Monday, October 3," Laurenzi said.

"In that circumstance, CDT has instructed collectors since I began in 2005 that they should safeguard the samples in their homes until FedEx is able to immediately ship the sample to the laboratory, rather than having the samples sit for one day or more at a local FedEx office," Laurenzi said in the statement.

"The protocol has been in place since 2005 when I started with CDT and there have been other occasions when I have had to store samples in my home for at least one day, all without incident."

Laurenzi said he has been a collector for Comprehensive Drug Testing since 2005, conducting more than 600 collections since then, in addition to postseason collections for five major league teams.

"I followed the same procedure in collecting Mr. Braun's sample as I did in the hundreds of other samples I collected under the program," Laurenzi said of his collection of Braun's urine samples on Oct. 1.

"I sealed the bottles containing Mr. Braun's A and B samples with specially numbered, tamper-resistant seals, and Mr. Braun signed a form certifying, among other things, that the specimens were capped and sealed in his presence and that the specimen identification numbers on the top of the form matched those on the seals."

Although MLB officials would not comment on the record, sources told ESPN legal analyst Lester Munson they are still convinced that the sample tested came from Braun, and that the positive test result was correct. They emphasized that the FedEx package that arrived at the Montreal laboratory handling the test was sealed three times with tamper-proof seals -- one on the box, one on a plastic bag inside the box, and again on the vial that contained the urine.

 

[pantagrapher]

He said the samples never left his custody and that no one other than his wife was in his home while the samples were stored.

Looks like we have our suspect.

 

[shadyridr]

"In that circumstance, CDT has instructed collectors since I began in 2005 that they should safeguard the samples in their homes until FedEx is able to immediately ship the sample to the laboratory, rather than having the samples sit for one day or more at a local FedEx office," Laurenzi said in the statement.

"The protocol has been in place since 2005 when I started with CDT and there have been other occasions when I have had to store samples in my home for at least one day, all without incident."

Shocking that nobody else tested positive for 20 times the normal level of synthetic testosterone since this kind of delay magically makes it appear.

 

[Maude]

"In that circumstance, CDT has instructed collectors since I began in 2005 that they should safeguard the samples in their homes until FedEx is able to immediately ship the sample to the laboratory, rather than having the samples sit for one day or more at a local FedEx office," Laurenzi said in the statement.

"The protocol has been in place since 2005 when I started with CDT and there have been other occasions when I have had to store samples in my home for at least one day, all without incident."

Shocking that nobody else tested positive for 20 times the normal level of synthetic testosterone since this kind of delay magically makes it appear.

IT'S THE BACTERIA I TELL YOU!!!!!!!

 

[[icon]]

I find it difficult impossible to believe that there are actually people out there who TRULY believe Braun didn't get caught with his hand in the cookie jar here....

 

[Chairshot]

Do we know for sure they were synthetic testosterone?

Jesus ####### christ dude.

Excuse me for asking a simple question. I didn't know if it was reported that the testosterone was synthetic or if it was just speculation by those in this thread. But thanks anyway for your thoughtful input.

I've seen it reported in TV interviews that it was synthetic testosterone. I don't think this particular point is in doubt.Even though he shouldn't be suspended, because MLB didn't do everything they could to follow the process, it comes down to 2 options:

1) He's guilty

2) His sample was tampered with/replaced

In my opinion, it's impossible to believe #2, given the evidence.