Scalia: University of Texas 'Too Fast' for Black Students (1 Viewer)

[Joe Summer]

I would need to be convinced that good grades (B's, not A's) are more difficult at top schools. A's are understandably tougher to get because it's difficult to stand out with a lot of quality classmates.

Your line of reasoning assumes 'well they aren't getting A's but still graduating' as the worst outcome though. Take a B- level student (using the classification system above) and put them in an A school. First semester they have a 2.1 and feel outmatched. You really don't think that would lead to some more dropping out?

According to The Atlantic article linked to above, the drop-out rate is greatly increased among beneficiaries of affirmative action.

Of course the dropout rate is greatly increased. But isn't that to be expected when granting admission to underqualified students? Shouldn't AA be judged on graduation numbers instead of dropout numbers?

 

[mr roboto]

I would need to be convinced that good grades (B's, not A's) are more difficult at top schools. A's are understandably tougher to get because it's difficult to stand out with a lot of quality classmates.

Your line of reasoning assumes 'well they aren't getting A's but still graduating' as the worst outcome though. Take a B- level student (using the classification system above) and put them in an A school. First semester they have a 2.1 and feel outmatched. You really don't think that would lead to some more dropping out?

According to The Atlantic article linked to above, the drop-out rate is greatly increased among beneficiaries of affirmative action.

Of course the dropout rate is greatly increased. But isn't that to be expected when granting admission to underqualified students? Shouldn't AA be judged on graduation numbers instead of dropout numbers?

Sure. According to the Atlantic article at UCLA after doing away with strong preference admissions, they saw a reduction in AA enrollment but the same total number of graduations.

 

[Loan Sharks]

Are his statements are backed by real data?

You need data to back up the fact that inner city schools are junk?

 

[Joe Summer]

I would need to be convinced that good grades (B's, not A's) are more difficult at top schools. A's are understandably tougher to get because it's difficult to stand out with a lot of quality classmates.

Your line of reasoning assumes 'well they aren't getting A's but still graduating' as the worst outcome though. Take a B- level student (using the classification system above) and put them in an A school. First semester they have a 2.1 and feel outmatched. You really don't think that would lead to some more dropping out?

According to The Atlantic article linked to above, the drop-out rate is greatly increased among beneficiaries of affirmative action.

Of course the dropout rate is greatly increased. But isn't that to be expected when granting admission to underqualified students? Shouldn't AA be judged on graduation numbers instead of dropout numbers?

Sure. According to the Atlantic article at UCLA after doing away with strong preference admissions, they saw a reduction in AA enrollment but the same total number of graduations.

But how many of those graduates would have needed AA in the first place?

 

[Loan Sharks]

I don't see why it matters that black students decide to change major more than whites or even that they finish in the bottom 20% of their class. If they are less prepared going into college than white students then they would be expected to get worse grades on average. Also, who cares if black students have to re-take their bar exams as long as they eventually pass.

Isn't that kinda the point people are talking about? People who are less prepared for college are getting in to college because of their race.

 

[Sweet J]

Are his statements are backed by real data?

You need data to back up the fact that inner city schools are junk?

Actually, yes.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

It should be equality across the board.

 

[dpeease]

The problem actually starts during the K-12 years. It just manifests itself in college where competition with other students (regardless of race, economic background, etc) means everything.

 

[Loan Sharks]

Are his statements are backed by real data?

You need data to back up the fact that inner city schools are junk?

Actually, yes.

Here you go!

 

[TobiasFunke]

The "mismatch" theory is worthy of consideration, and I don't find Scalia's comments during oral argument troubling at all, especially when you pull the transcript and look at them in context.

Here's an argument in response concern of mismatching and whether it harms black students. Some of it goes overboard, but it also raises a couple decent points. I think the point about these being state-supported not for profit institutions is important. If the public funds these institutions, shouldn't the institutions serve the public in a fair and equitable way and not restrict entry in a way that places any race (or gender, or ethnicity) at an unfair disadvantage due to external factors? Circular reasoning is also a point to consider- is it possible that black students at these schools possibly fail more often because they don't feel comfortable and happy at certain schools due to the fact that there's not a lot of other black students there?

The Great MismatchThe painful truth about hand-wringing over whether Affirmative Action “harms” racial minorities is that no one cares if Affirmative Action harms racial minorities. The faux concern for the well-being of poor put-upon non-white students who are promoted beyond their ability never extends to concern for the many more white students who are surely promoted beyond theirs. At the same time we have debates about whether any student learns anything in college anymore (see: Academically Adrift), we also debate if there is too much learning happening for poor non-white students. On the one hand, we argue that soft majors and sports culture have created a climate of non-learning at all U.S. universities, even the most prestigious. And we care about that only as it is politically convenient to defend the legacy preferences, white preferences, athlete preferences and donor preferences at colleges and universities. With friends like this, as the saying goes, non-white students don’t need enemies.

This is liberal concern-trolling of the type, tenor and intensity that makes social media trolling seem quaint by comparison. The argument goes that black students’ self-efficacy is damaged when they have to compete with better-prepared white students at rigorous universities. These students persist and feel better when they are at a university that is calibrated to their level of ability. Even if we accept that someone actually cares that black students’ feelings are hurt (and I would argue vehemently that very few people making this argument actually care), the reasoning is usually fallacious, from circular logic to selection issues. The most common fallacy here is selecting on the dependent variable. The other fallacy is arguing that grades are objective, standardized measures and not subjective, non-standard measures. But all of that is perhaps beside the point. Douglas Massey, Camille Charles, Garvey Lundy and Mary Fischer tackle this well in “The Source of the River: The Social Origins of Freshmen at America’s Selective Colleges and Universities”. Alon and Tienda also have work here in the Sociology of Education.

It is true that black and hispanic students report lower levels of satisfaction and belonging at PWIs. That can certainly condition one’s academic performance. It is also true that poorer black and hispanic students are likely to have different levels of academic preparation that can be a “mismatch” for the assumed curriculum exposure embedded in college curricula (with that skewing towards elite universities and away from say open access community colleges). None of these things are about being black or hispanic. It is true for many students and seems to be becoming more true for more students as stratification within and between k-12 schools persists. Black and hispanic students don’t like racist communities and many of these universities are racist. But, non-elite students also tend to not like classist communities and many of these universities are classist. Ask some working class students about how their mismatch impacts their academic performance some time (or read some of that research).

But, of course, the issue here is one about race. It isn’t an issue of race because there is anything inherently flawed with racialized people but because there is something inherently flawed with white supremacy. That’s what affirmative action was about and what it continues to be about. Can you design an integrated social, economic, cultural, and institutional system of privilege that delimits access to colleges and universities as a normal course of business and be not-for-profit, state-supported, and culturally legitimate? Because that’s what U.S. higher education did and what it continues to do. Whether black or hispanic students do not like the culture, drop out, transfer, get an F in freshman comp is not the issue. The issue is not individual performance but institutional exclusion. Of course, these universities could agree that the mismatch is just too great to bear. They could concede that the greatest universities in the world are just too fragile for a few thousand or so non-white, non-legacy students to exist on the yard. It may be the case that for all of our collective brilliance and innovation we simply cannot overcome the compound effects of white racism and residential segregation and educational stratification. In which case, put these institutions out of their misery and turn off public funding for them and to them. The mismatch between what they are and what a just, diverse, and ethical society needs may well be too great.

link

 

[thecatch]

The problem actually starts during the K-12 years. It just manifests itself in college where competition with other students (regardless of race, economic background, etc) means everything.

Freakonomics just ran a really interesting set of podcasts son this. Apparently the problem may start much earlier than K.

 

[bear]

Here's a really good article on the subject. It talks about how the University of Texas put a program in place to help first-generation students, many of whom were minorities, and the resulting improvements in performance.

This is a great article that has more relevance to this subject than anything else in this thread. I would suggest people read it before they continue to post. Long but worth it if you want to understand the actual dynamics of admitting certain students who, apparently, many believe don't belong at this school.

 

[roadkill1292]

The problem actually starts during the K-12 years. It just manifests itself in college where competition with other students (regardless of race, economic background, etc) means everything.

I don't know who you are but your avatar cracks the board's Top 10 right away.

 

[jonessed]

The problem actually starts during the K-12 years. It just manifests itself in college where competition with other students (regardless of race, economic background, etc) means everything.

Freakonomics just ran a really interesting set of podcasts son this. Apparently the problem may start much earlier than K.

It does and it can't entirely be fixed in schools. Parents play a huge role from birth. We need a better school system, but if kids aren't in a safe, stable environment where they are getting read to, encouraged to read, engaging in quality conversations, etc. they aren't going to do as well. This can't be fixed by going to a better college. Most of the brain development has already taken place.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

It should be equality across the board.

That's what AA is working towards. Its an offset measure.

 

[BassNBrew]

I was always told affirmative action was if two candidates were equal in most all measures...then the minority would get preference.

No.

is the policy of favoring members of a disadvantaged group who suffer from discrimination within a culture. Often, these people are disadvantaged for historical reasons, such as oppression or slavery. Historically and internationally, support for affirmative action has sought to achieve goals such as bridging inequalities in employment and pay, increasing access to education, promoting diversity, and redressing apparent past wrongs, harms, or hindrances.

I believe the bolded is good for school and other students, not just for the individual students who benefit from AA.

Not good for the student that was denied due to a race quota.

Correct, but you are trying to bring about a tiny bit of life balance based on the historic ### ####-ing some of our citizens endured.

I dont have any answers to this problem, but I could see how alot of the students that get passed over end up feeling alot of resentment. Sending away young impressionable minds away from a school because they didnt meet a racial quota creates problems this system tries to solve.

It really shouldn't be that hard, just increase enrollment and take in more student loan dollars.

But wouldn't the "quota" still will out?

I mean, if you let in another 1000 students...would you then be letting the top 80 percentile whites and 45 percentile blacks (versus current 89% & 52%, respectively)?

Or...are you saying...just let in another 1000 of the higher percentiles that didn't make the initial cut...regardless of race?

Saying the later.

 

[tdoss]

I was always told affirmative action was if two candidates were equal in most all measures...then the minority would get preference.

No.

is the policy of favoring members of a disadvantaged group who suffer from discrimination within a culture. Often, these people are disadvantaged for historical reasons, such as oppression or slavery. Historically and internationally, support for affirmative action has sought to achieve goals such as bridging inequalities in employment and pay, increasing access to education, promoting diversity, and redressing apparent past wrongs, harms, or hindrances.

I believe the bolded is good for school and other students, not just for the individual students who benefit from AA.

Not good for the student that was denied due to a race quota.

Correct, but you are trying to bring about a tiny bit of life balance based on the historic ### ####-ing some of our citizens endured.

I dont have any answers to this problem, but I could see how alot of the students that get passed over end up feeling alot of resentment. Sending away young impressionable minds away from a school because they didnt meet a racial quota creates problems this system tries to solve.

It really shouldn't be that hard, just increase enrollment and take in more student loan dollars.

But wouldn't the "quota" still will out?

I mean, if you let in another 1000 students...would you then be letting the top 80 percentile whites and 45 percentile blacks (versus current 89% & 52%, respectively)?

Or...are you saying...just let in another 1000 of the higher percentiles that didn't make the initial cut...regardless of race?

Saying the later.

I assume you mean the "ladder"...

Well...I guess that's closer to what should happen.

Personally, I think you just let the candidates in who qualify, regardless of race and end AA.

Work on fixing it on the front end...not the backend.

I worked for a company (Company A) who bought out another company (Company B). Company B's system and client base was not up to Company A's standards at the time of buyout. The business was tax filing. Instead of focusing on the front end and implementing Company B's client base properly...Company A decided to simply slam Company's B's clientele into their system...knowing it would not work for a majority of Company B's client base...thus causing penalties, interest and increased fees across the board for those clients. Someone, somewhere did the math (I assume) and figured it would be cheaper to hire a bunch of analysts on the backend to deal with all of the notices after the fact and then start plugging the holes and fixing the errors one by one. I guess figuring that some of the jurisdictions in the U.S. wouldn't notice for quite some time. That stupid decision is still being felt by this company over 20 years later. They're still cleaning it up. It caused tremendous amount of turmoil for clients and incredible penalties. The IRS can backtrack and charge penalties on tax, interest on that tax and penalties. Then...because it takes so long to figure it all out...they continue to charge penalties on the penalties and interest on top of all of this compounding debt. Plus, because not every client is truly up to standard...anytime you have an upgrade or change in the system...there's always a ton of failures because the system was never implemented correctly in the first place and it would take a tremendous amount of effort to start from scratch and just do it right from the ground up. They just keep slapping on band-aid fixes.

Long story short...just freaking fix it on the front end...what is the sense of lowering standards...having kids drop out and struggle in classes/schools that they shouldn't be at in the first place? Wasting everyone's time, money and effort. It's just not an efficient model by any means.

Whatever happened to the American Ideal of raising standards and ever improving...forever sharpening the spear...not dulling it and continuing to pull it down into the muck. I'm not saying Survival of the Fittest should reign supreme...but there is a reason why it works for nature and continues to be the way species survive and thrive.

 

[cstu]

I don't see why it matters that black students decide to change major more than whites or even that they finish in the bottom 20% of their class. If they are less prepared going into college than white students then they would be expected to get worse grades on average. Also, who cares if black students have to re-take their bar exams as long as they eventually pass.

Isn't that kinda the point people are talking about? People who are less prepared for college are getting in to college because of their race.

Someone can be less prepared than others but still graduate.

 

[cstu]

Ask some working class students about how their mismatch impacts their academic performance some time (or read some of that research).

https://media.giphy.com/media/jfsaMQr3GNkKk/giphy.gif

 

[3C's]

The ladder?

 

[jon_mx]

I would need to be convinced that good grades (B's, not A's) are more difficult at top schools. A's are understandably tougher to get because it's difficult to stand out with a lot of quality classmates.

Your line of reasoning assumes 'well they aren't getting A's but still graduating' as the worst outcome though. Take a B- level student (using the classification system above) and put them in an A school. First semester they have a 2.1 and feel outmatched. You really don't think that would lead to some more dropping out?

According to The Atlantic article linked to above, the drop-out rate is greatly increased among beneficiaries of affirmative action.

Of course the dropout rate is greatly increased. But isn't that to be expected when granting admission to underqualified students? Shouldn't AA be judged on graduation numbers instead of dropout numbers?

What about a very talented black student who could have excelled if he went to average law school, but because he went to Harvard he dropped out and ended up with no college education? That is the issue, you could be harming a lot of students by not being in the appropriate college.

 

[cstu]

What about a very talented black student who could have excelled if he went to average law school, but because he went to Harvard he dropped out and ended up with no college education? That is the issue, you could be harming a lot of students by not being in the appropriate college.

It's no more difficult to graduate from Harvard Law than it is an average law school. Our GB Woz graduated from some law school no one has even heard of and he got nearly the same education with the same difficultly that someone going to Harvard gets .

 

[[scooter]]

I would need to be convinced that good grades (B's, not A's) are more difficult at top schools. A's are understandably tougher to get because it's difficult to stand out with a lot of quality classmates.

Your line of reasoning assumes 'well they aren't getting A's but still graduating' as the worst outcome though. Take a B- level student (using the classification system above) and put them in an A school. First semester they have a 2.1 and feel outmatched. You really don't think that would lead to some more dropping out?

According to The Atlantic article linked to above, the drop-out rate is greatly increased among beneficiaries of affirmative action.

Of course the dropout rate is greatly increased. But isn't that to be expected when granting admission to underqualified students? Shouldn't AA be judged on graduation numbers instead of dropout numbers?

What about a very talented black student who could have excelled if he went to average law school, but because he went to Harvard he dropped out and ended up with no college education? That is the issue, you could be harming a lot of students by not being in the appropriate college.

If a student is so talented that he would have excelled at an average law school, then there's no way he would just drop out of college completely. He'd transfer from Harvard to the same "average" law school and get the same degree that he would have received without affirmative action.

 

[[scooter]]

The ladder?

I assume you mean the "later".

 

[jonessed]

The ladder?

I assume you mean the "later".

I assume you mean the "latter".

 

[[scooter]]

The ladder?

I assume you mean the "later".

I assume you mean the "latter".

You should never assume. It makes an ### out of u and me.

 

[jonessed]

The ladder?

I assume you mean the "later".

I assume you mean the "latter".

You should never assume. It makes an ### out of u and me.

I assume you mean "###".

 

[MaxThreshold]

The ladder?

I assume you mean the "later".

I assume you mean the "latter".

You should never assume. It makes an ### out of u and me.

I assume you mean "###".

No, I think he actually meant "$!$!".

 

[3C's]

The ladder?

I assume you mean the "later".

Step stool.

 

[tdoss]

The ladder?

I assume you mean the "later".

I assume you mean the "latter".

Now that's just dumb...

 

[jon_mx]

I would need to be convinced that good grades (B's, not A's) are more difficult at top schools. A's are understandably tougher to get because it's difficult to stand out with a lot of quality classmates.

Your line of reasoning assumes 'well they aren't getting A's but still graduating' as the worst outcome though. Take a B- level student (using the classification system above) and put them in an A school. First semester they have a 2.1 and feel outmatched. You really don't think that would lead to some more dropping out?

According to The Atlantic article linked to above, the drop-out rate is greatly increased among beneficiaries of affirmative action.

Of course the dropout rate is greatly increased. But isn't that to be expected when granting admission to underqualified students? Shouldn't AA be judged on graduation numbers instead of dropout numbers?

What about a very talented black student who could have excelled if he went to average law school, but because he went to Harvard he dropped out and ended up with no college education? That is the issue, you could be harming a lot of students by not being in the appropriate college.

If a student is so talented that he would have excelled at an average law school, then there's no way he would just drop out of college completely. He'd transfer from Harvard to the same "average" law school and get the same degree that he would have received without affirmative action.

Not necessarily. Some get discouraged and dropout completely.

 

[Long Ball Larry]

I would need to be convinced that good grades (B's, not A's) are more difficult at top schools. A's are understandably tougher to get because it's difficult to stand out with a lot of quality classmates.

Your line of reasoning assumes 'well they aren't getting A's but still graduating' as the worst outcome though. Take a B- level student (using the classification system above) and put them in an A school. First semester they have a 2.1 and feel outmatched. You really don't think that would lead to some more dropping out?

According to The Atlantic article linked to above, the drop-out rate is greatly increased among beneficiaries of affirmative action.

Of course the dropout rate is greatly increased. But isn't that to be expected when granting admission to underqualified students? Shouldn't AA be judged on graduation numbers instead of dropout numbers?

What about a very talented black student who could have excelled if he went to average law school, but because he went to Harvard he dropped out and ended up with no college education? That is the issue, you could be harming a lot of students by not being in the appropriate college.

If a student is so talented that he would have excelled at an average law school, then there's no way he would just drop out of college completely. He'd transfer from Harvard to the same "average" law school and get the same degree that he would have received without affirmative action.

Not necessarily. Some get discouraged and dropout completely.

He got into law school without having any college education?

 

[Meatwad Reloaded]

I don't see why it matters that black students decide to change major more than whites or even that they finish in the bottom 20% of their class. If they are less prepared going into college than white students then they would be expected to get worse grades on average. Also, who cares if black students have to re-take their bar exams as long as they eventually pass.

These people are not deciding to change their major. The decision is made for them because they cannot compete with the top students in competitive majors. No matter what color you are, if you want to get into nursing, certain types of business degrees, and science/math related majors (esp. engineering) at a big state university, you have to make it through the core classes as one of the top students. There are only so many seats in certain majors. Unfortunately for some, the education they received prior was not rigorous at all and they are not able to hack it. The liberal eggheads who run the universities feel great about the fact that they let these kids in, but when it comes time to teach them, they funnel most of them down into fluffy b.s. liberal arts majors that might not have even existed 25 years ago. Personally, I think it would be hilarious if we started to require that every university slots a set percentage of African Americans into these more difficult fields so the professors could actually earn their money. Even funnier would be if companies were required by law to hire them. At that point, you might see real changes to the root of the problem, which is substandard urban education programs.

Even on a micro level, I see stuff like this all the time at the elementary level. Every year, we have kids transfer in from inner city schools who are getting As and Bs at the 'Gehtto Academy of Science and Excellence', but can only muster C- level work (and that is generous) once they get in my classroom. The parents are then up in arms that their kids are getting Cs and I have to explain that a C is good if they are working hard to get it.

 

[Meatwad Reloaded]

The problem actually starts during the K-12 years. It just manifests itself in college where competition with other students (regardless of race, economic background, etc) means everything.

Freakonomics just ran a really interesting set of podcasts son this. Apparently the problem may start much earlier than K.

Apparently? Most kids who are born in the inner city are born to be screwed. Most of them come into school completely unprepared to learn and have guardians who are wholly unable to advocate for their well being or benefit. If a kid gets lucky, he or she can glide out with the right tutelage and series of decisions. I would liken these kids to Han Solo flying the Millennium Falcon through the asteroid belt.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I don't go see doctors with last names I can't pronounce like kjkh;HGUNV or hsalgeaohgn

I have a black doctor I see at the Univ of Miami, first thing I asked him when I met was how he stayed in such good shape. We hit it off and he put me on a good diet and exercise plan. My doctor runs about 3-5 times a week. I'm a good 30-40 lbs under when I met him so he has done me a lot of good.

Black or White doesn't matter to me as much as if they come from outside the country. I assume what Scalia said bleeds into the kind of doctors and professionals that we white people with purchasing power tend to influence? Scalia obviously spewing racism but at the same time he also sheds a light on something most white people especially those that try and project an all encompassing world don't want to deal with.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

After reading a few more posts I get the overall idea here better that blacks are not meeting the challenges of colleges but lets cut to the root of the problem for most. And I speak from a POV where I didn't get to go to Univ of Miami until I was in my mid 30s so I went in with no blinders on.

A lot of the students come in ill prepared and are not ready for professors who do not care 1 iota that they need a little help. The core 60 credits for the first 2 years is what weeds out a lot of kids. It's unfortunate because if the students would simply slow down and realize that they can't party and take 15 credits simultaneously. I encourage young folks to simply start with 2 classes. Even those that think they won't party need a chance to get acclimated. Just go part time when you are 18, 19, 20, knock out those 60 credits slowly. The next 60 credits for your major are going to be so much more interesting and so much EASIER to pass. All of them are similar excpet the highly technical fields but most liberal arts degrees are going to be a mid term, a final, and a term paper. Wash rinse repeat

Why is their a mismatch and are we now asking colleges to bend? It's a stacked deck against certain races in college? There is always a reason why the man is being held back isn't there?

 

[Meatwad Reloaded]

I would need to be convinced that good grades (B's, not A's) are more difficult at top schools. A's are understandably tougher to get because it's difficult to stand out with a lot of quality classmates.

Your line of reasoning assumes 'well they aren't getting A's but still graduating' as the worst outcome though. Take a B- level student (using the classification system above) and put them in an A school. First semester they have a 2.1 and feel outmatched. You really don't think that would lead to some more dropping out?

According to The Atlantic article linked to above, the drop-out rate is greatly increased among beneficiaries of affirmative action.

Of course the dropout rate is greatly increased. But isn't that to be expected when granting admission to underqualified students? Shouldn't AA be judged on graduation numbers instead of dropout numbers?

What about a very talented black student who could have excelled if he went to average law school, but because he went to Harvard he dropped out and ended up with no college education? That is the issue, you could be harming a lot of students by not being in the appropriate college.

Ivy league law schools are not very competitive once you are admitted. Everyone is set once they graduate. An average law school on the other hand, is extremely competitive. Everybody is not set once they graduate, and some of the people are screwed because they took out loans that they will never live down because, contrary to popular belief, not all lawyers are pulling down six figure salaries.

For example, I knew a couple of above average dudes who got into Northwestern and NYU law respectively. Both obviously had to study, but were ready for it and knew they would have great jobs waiting once they graduated and they were right. I also know few people who were a little bit below their profile and went to an average school like Marquette and UWMadison. The average schools do no tell you in advance that there are not enough high quality jobs around to support 200 students per class. Once you commit and drop your 150 - 200 K ( I guess way less if you are in state at UW) you discover that if you are not top 25% in your class; you had better have a sweet connection for a job, otherwise you just paid big money for a job that is probably in the 50K range with limited potential for growth depending which way the wind blows for you.

This system would probably be worse for the average black grad and they are way better off getting into Harvard or Yale than going to an average school, unless somebody else is paying for it.