Degrasse - Grades Don't Matter - These 3 Things Do (1 Viewer)

[Joe Bryant]

Love this. https://www.inc.com/nick-hobson/in-...hat-grades-dont-matter-these-3-things-do.html

I was a perpetual student for over a decade before starting my professional career. Honors, master's, PhD degrees, and then lecturing at the same university -- I was becoming a tortured academic. Fortunately, before I got stuck in it even further, I came out on the other side.
But thinking back, one thing stands out about my time in school. Everything I did, all my behaviors and decisions, always came down to one thing: GPA. I obsessed over grades. The content of the learning didn't matter. The outcomes -- arbitrary numbers and letters -- mattered most.
I saw it in my students when I became the professor on the other side. As an incentive, the whole system of grades and GPA is broken and needs revamping so that it better prepares young adults for the real world. Because in the real world, grades don't matter.

So when I heard Neil deGrasse Tyson's latest commencement speech, I couldn't help but smile.
In a captivating 10-minute speech, Tyson dismantled the traditional emphasis on GPA, urging graduates to focus on three essential qualities: solving problems, doing good work, and being a good person. As an educator and scientist, Tyson's message resonated deeply, challenging conventional metrics of success and offering a refreshing perspective on what truly matters in life and career.

Solving problems
Tyson began by highlighting the limitations of GPA as a measure of one's ability to thrive in the real world. "Five years from now, no one cares what your GPA is," he declared. Instead, he emphasized the importance of problem-solving skills. In his speech, Tyson shared a poignant example of two candidates vying for an internship. One candidate memorized the height of a building, while the other figured it out using measurements and calculations. Tyson asked, "Who are you going to hire? I'm hiring the person who figured it out."

This anecdote underscores a critical point: The ability to solve problems is far more valuable than rote memorization. Employers seek individuals who can think critically, adapt to new situations, and devise innovative solutions. In a rapidly evolving world, these skills are indispensable. Tyson's message is clear: cultivate a mindset that embraces challenges and seeks solutions, rather than relying on static knowledge.

Doing good work
Another element of Tyson's speech was the emphasis on doing good work. He argued that the true measure of success is not found in grades but in the quality and impact of one's efforts. "In the workplace, what they care about is: Are you a hard worker?" Tyson noted. This principle extends beyond mere diligence; it encompasses the dedication to producing meaningful and high-quality work.

In today's competitive job market, standing out requires more than just meeting expectations. It involves going above and beyond, demonstrating a commitment to excellence, and continuously striving to improve. Whether you're an entrepreneur launching a startup or an employee climbing the corporate ladder, the consistent pursuit of excellence in your work is what sets you apart. Tyson's advice is to focus on the substance of your contributions, ensuring that your work speaks for itself.

Being a good person
Perhaps the most profound aspect of Tyson's speech was his call to be a good person. He highlighted the importance of moral integrity and ethical behavior, stating, "What they care about is: Are you moral?" In a world where ethical lapses and corporate scandals are all too common, maintaining a strong moral compass is crucial.

Being a good person involves more than just following the rules; it means embodying values such as honesty, empathy, and respect in all aspects of life. These qualities foster trust and collaboration and create a positive and inclusive environment. Tyson's message reminds us that true success is not just about personal achievements but also about the impact we have on others and the legacy we leave behind.

 

[Joe Schmo]

My mantra to my son from the time he was born was always be a good man and the rest will take care of itself. I believe that to my core.

 

[John123]

Seems like an oversimplification to me. You can't solve problems without the knowledge to do so. Grades are an indicator of that knowledge and therefore the ability to solve problems. If the grades are not indicative of such the teacher did not teach and /or test on the knowledge they should have. People who want to eliminate grades and standardized testing typically are trying to find a way to remove standards from the process so they can choose candidates they want instead of candidates most deserving. I will stop here because to go further starts getting political.

 

[El Floppo]

My mantra to my son from the time he was born was always be a good man and the rest will take care of itself. I believe that to my core.

Sadly we're in an era when being an absolute ******* pays dividends and is celebrated.

 

[Desert_Power]

Is he using the "real world" to mean the professional/working world? I agree that GPA doesn't matter as much there as people think, but would argue the things he mention often matter even less.

 

[Don Quixote]

I think it depends on profession. I’m a tax attorney and think there is a high correlation between grades and quality of work and success on the job. If you can’t read and write, or memorize and apply what read, not going to be very effective.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Seems like an oversimplification to me. You can't solve problems without the knowledge to do so. Grades are an indicator of that knowledge and therefore the ability to solve problems.

I think what Degrasse is taking about is the difference between "knowledge" as in being able to regurgitate a memorized fact and "knowledge" as knowing how to figure something out.

And for sure, short things like this are always a condensed version of a bigger thing that always has nuance.

 

[Joe Schmo]

Don't point out issues, highlight solutions. That's the difference, imo.

 

[tri-man 47]

Seems like an oversimplification to me. You can't solve problems without the knowledge to do so. Grades are an indicator of that knowledge and therefore the ability to solve problems.

I think what Degrasse is taking about is the difference between "knowledge" as in being able to regurgitate a memorized fact and "knowledge" as knowing how to figure something out.

And for sure, short things like this are always a condensed version of a bigger thing that always has nuance.

That’s the issue of deep learning vs. surface learning. The latter typically occurs in the normal testing/exam environment…cram for the exam, then let that surface learning drift away. Deep learning occurs in a more active learning environment. (I had explored cognitive learning and educational frameworks such as universal design for learning as part of a published research paper last year.). So I would say grades themselves are not the issue. It’s more the way that grades are achieved.

 

[Kanil]

My mantra to my son from the time he was born was always be a good man and the rest will take care of itself. I believe that to my core.

Sadly we're in an era when being an absolute ******* pays dividends and is celebrated.

It's not just this era. It's been that way for thousands of years.

 

[djmich]

Love this. https://www.inc.com/nick-hobson/in-...hat-grades-dont-matter-these-3-things-do.html

I was a perpetual student for over a decade before starting my professional career. Honors, master's, PhD degrees, and then lecturing at the same university -- I was becoming a tortured academic. Fortunately, before I got stuck in it even further, I came out on the other side.
But thinking back, one thing stands out about my time in school. Everything I did, all my behaviors and decisions, always came down to one thing: GPA. I obsessed over grades. The content of the learning didn't matter. The outcomes -- arbitrary numbers and letters -- mattered most.
I saw it in my students when I became the professor on the other side. As an incentive, the whole system of grades and GPA is broken and needs revamping so that it better prepares young adults for the real world. Because in the real world, grades don't matter.

So when I heard Neil deGrasse Tyson's latest commencement speech, I couldn't help but smile.
In a captivating 10-minute speech, Tyson dismantled the traditional emphasis on GPA, urging graduates to focus on three essential qualities: solving problems, doing good work, and being a good person. As an educator and scientist, Tyson's message resonated deeply, challenging conventional metrics of success and offering a refreshing perspective on what truly matters in life and career.

Solving problems
Tyson began by highlighting the limitations of GPA as a measure of one's ability to thrive in the real world. "Five years from now, no one cares what your GPA is," he declared. Instead, he emphasized the importance of problem-solving skills. In his speech, Tyson shared a poignant example of two candidates vying for an internship. One candidate memorized the height of a building, while the other figured it out using measurements and calculations. Tyson asked, "Who are you going to hire? I'm hiring the person who figured it out."

This anecdote underscores a critical point: The ability to solve problems is far more valuable than rote memorization. Employers seek individuals who can think critically, adapt to new situations, and devise innovative solutions. In a rapidly evolving world, these skills are indispensable. Tyson's message is clear: cultivate a mindset that embraces challenges and seeks solutions, rather than relying on static knowledge.

Doing good work
Another element of Tyson's speech was the emphasis on doing good work. He argued that the true measure of success is not found in grades but in the quality and impact of one's efforts. "In the workplace, what they care about is: Are you a hard worker?" Tyson noted. This principle extends beyond mere diligence; it encompasses the dedication to producing meaningful and high-quality work.

In today's competitive job market, standing out requires more than just meeting expectations. It involves going above and beyond, demonstrating a commitment to excellence, and continuously striving to improve. Whether you're an entrepreneur launching a startup or an employee climbing the corporate ladder, the consistent pursuit of excellence in your work is what sets you apart. Tyson's advice is to focus on the substance of your contributions, ensuring that your work speaks for itself.

Being a good person
Perhaps the most profound aspect of Tyson's speech was his call to be a good person. He highlighted the importance of moral integrity and ethical behavior, stating, "What they care about is: Are you moral?" In a world where ethical lapses and corporate scandals are all too common, maintaining a strong moral compass is crucial.

Being a good person involves more than just following the rules; it means embodying values such as honesty, empathy, and respect in all aspects of life. These qualities foster trust and collaboration and create a positive and inclusive environment. Tyson's message reminds us that true success is not just about personal achievements but also about the impact we have on others and the legacy we leave behind.

Bunch of strawmans in there. Grades matter. So do the other things.

 

[BrutalPenguin]

It's been awhile since I've interviewed collage hires, so this might have changed, but GPA was the first gating factor we used to decide who gets an interview. It's not all important, but it's certainly not unimportant.

 

[Joe Bryant]

It's been awhile since I've interviewed collage hires, so this might have changed, but GPA was the first gating factor we used to decide who gets an interview. It's not all important, but it's certainly not unimportant.

Agreed. They of course matter. I think the real question is how much.

 

[djmich]

Saying that after five years nobody asks what your grades were so therefore they don’t matter has to be one of the dumbest things I’ve ever read.

After 10yrs and you are VP of Lending at Chase nobody cares what you did as an analyst, but you bet your *** what you did as an analyst was critical to getting to the next step.

 

[Joe Schmo]

Saying that after five years nobody asks what your grades were so therefore they don’t matter has to be one of the dumbest things I’ve ever read.

After 10yrs and you are VP of Lending at Chase nobody cares what you did as an analyst, but you bet your *** what you did as an analyst was critical to getting to the next step.

And what you memorized in school for the good gpa is probably not the knowledge base you need or currently have in order to be VP of Lending instead of merely an analyst. More likely your skill set and way of thinking had the impact to offer you the promotions.

 

[⚡DEADHEAD⚡]

• It shouldn't be about grades, but it can be. I interviewed at a national laboratory ~20 years ago and did not get the job because of my sub-3.0 college GPA (grad school GPA was 3.9+). I took a job a year later at a "competitor" national lab. I got the job based on my experience as an analyst and my interview/presentation. I've been there 17+ years, have had an extremely rewarding career. I've learned a lot about that other lab in the time since and let's just say I wound up in the right place. Frankly I'd avoid places that consider GPA as part of the evaluation process.
• Critical thinking needs to fit in here somewhere. It's something of a precursor to problem solving.
• I tell my kids all the time, if you're going to tell me the problem, suggest a solution. I tell my wife that too on occasion. And I admit to not practicing this all the time.
• I even debate alma maters don't really matter except at the high end. We rarely hire based on alma mater, although we do draw from the best technical schools in the country without too much difficulty.
• I also tell early career persons: pick one thing and master it. Be the "it" person for that thing. Demonstrate your capacity to master something and then share your expertise. Speaks volumes.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

Seems like an oversimplification to me. You can't solve problems without the knowledge to do so. Grades are an indicator of that knowledge and therefore the ability to solve problems.

I think what Degrasse is taking about is the difference between "knowledge" as in being able to regurgitate a memorized fact and "knowledge" as knowing how to figure something out.

And for sure, short things like this are always a condensed version of a bigger thing that always has nuance.

That’s the issue of deep learning vs. surface learning. The latter typically occurs in the normal testing/exam environment…cram for the exam, then let that surface learning drift away. Deep learning occurs in a more active learning environment. (I had explored cognitive learning and educational frameworks such as universal design for learning as part of a published research paper last year.). So I would say grades themselves are not the issue. It’s more the way that grades are achieved.

Came to say something very similar. In my experience, grades matter in a different way depending on the program you went through and how it was constructed. The importance can range from "not all that important. they are an indicator that this person can be taught" to "yep, this person is ready to hit the ground running and be productive from day one". It's all contingent on the program constructs and the good employers know, at minimum, their local programs to know where a GPA from program X lands on that scale.

 

[djmich]

Saying that after five years nobody asks what your grades were so therefore they don’t matter has to be one of the dumbest things I’ve ever read.

After 10yrs and you are VP of Lending at Chase nobody cares what you did as an analyst, but you bet your *** what you did as an analyst was critical to getting to the next step.

And what you memorized in school for the good gpa is probably not the knowledge base you need or currently have in order to be VP of Lending instead of merely an analyst. More likely your skill set and way of thinking had the impact to offer you the promotions.

Let’s assume that in college you learn nothing applicable to real world job performance, which it seems you are implying (and is wrong).

But let’s assume that, you don’t believe the ability to learn (yes including memorizing) and work to achieve a high gpa is indicative in any way of the ability to learn and work at the next levels in your career?

 

[nightmare]

Can someone give me a detailed explanation of how good grades helped with your problem solving skills, your
ability to interact with people, your ability to put up with "bad" workers, and the direct connection of your management
skills if/when you decide that route.

I don't want to shout but I did say detailed and it's not sarcasm.

 

[Joe Schmo]

Saying that after five years nobody asks what your grades were so therefore they don’t matter has to be one of the dumbest things I’ve ever read.

After 10yrs and you are VP of Lending at Chase nobody cares what you did as an analyst, but you bet your *** what you did as an analyst was critical to getting to the next step.

And what you memorized in school for the good gpa is probably not the knowledge base you need or currently have in order to be VP of Lending instead of merely an analyst. More likely your skill set and way of thinking had the impact to offer you the promotions.

Let’s assume that in college you learn nothing applicable to real world job performance, which it seems you are implying (and is wrong).

But let’s assume that, you don’t believe the ability to learn (yes including memorizing) and work to achieve a high gpa is indicative in any way of the ability to learn and work at the next levels in your career?

No, I'm miscommunicating my view. While gpa has merit for a foot in the door, for me it's the person who can think on their feet and is able to pivot and problem solve while under time constraints or pressure from management or clients that gets my attention and its who I want on my team. Book knowledge is great, but good problem solving and critical thinking makes anyone a better candidate, imo.

 

[Kanil]

I think it probably varies based on industry. In mine, I have never looked at a candidate's college grades and I bet that's more common than not.

 

[djmich]

@IvanKaramazov … it may not be apparent to you

Saying that after five years nobody asks what your grades were so therefore they don’t matter has to be one of the dumbest things I’ve ever read.

After 10yrs and you are VP of Lending at Chase nobody cares what you did as an analyst, but you bet your *** what you did as an analyst was critical to getting to the next step.

And what you memorized in school for the good gpa is probably not the knowledge base you need or currently have in order to be VP of Lending instead of merely an analyst. More likely your skill set and way of thinking had the impact to offer you the promotions.

Let’s assume that in college you learn nothing applicable to real world job performance, which it seems you are implying (and is wrong).

But let’s assume that, you don’t believe the ability to learn (yes including memorizing) and work to achieve a high gpa is indicative in any way of the ability to learn and work at the next levels in your career?

No, I'm miscommunicating my view. While gpa has merit for a foot in the door, for me it's the person who can think on their feet and is able to pivot and problem solve while under time constraints or pressure from management or clients that gets my attention and its who I want on my team. Book knowledge is great, but good problem solving and critical thinking makes anyone a better candidate, imo.

Gotcha. I agree on the value of those traits for sure. For me there is not a 1-1 correlation but a high level of overlap between people that demonstrate success in competitive educational environments and exhibit those traits.

I also think overall we’re over generalizing too much that college is just memorizing.

 

[SFBayDuck]

Seems like an oversimplification to me. You can't solve problems without the knowledge to do so. Grades are an indicator of that knowledge and therefore the ability to solve problems. If the grades are not indicative of such the teacher did not teach and /or test on the knowledge they should have. People who want to eliminate grades and standardized testing typically are trying to find a way to remove standards from the process so they can choose candidates they want instead of candidates most deserving. I will stop here because to go further starts getting political.

My daughter is a junior at a UC school, ranked in the top 30 of National Universities by US News & World Report (for whatever that's worth, Malcolm Gladwell's series on that whole ranking thing a few years ago was pretty interesting). She has had a couple of different professors, particularly in econ, who regularly give tests that are so curved that a 30% is passing. What's the point of that? Either the test is way too hard or they aren't effectively teaching the material. Not really sure what they are trying to accomplish there when a 45% is a B, but to me it shows that grades/gpa can actually be pretty arbitrary.

On the broader topic, when she's super stressed out during midterms and finals I remind her that nobody will care about her GPA in a couple of years, maybe ever (and she does just fine, mid-3s GPA). Work hard, learn as much as you can, and most importantly take advantage of being in college to learn the important stuff - how to deal with different kinds of people, put yourself out there and try different things, deal with disappointments and even failures, etc.

 

[Goldminer1]

1) Most parents don't engage with their kid's education nearly enough at the high school level.

2) The vast majority of parents that do engage with it, are concerned about 1 thing: Their kid's grades. Got Straight A's? Here's a reward. Got a "bad grade" that for some
reason you didn't "deserve?" I'll send the teacher an e-mail, and one way or another, we'll get it taken care of.

As a teacher, you learn very quickly that one of the ways you can make your job easier, is to keep everybody's grade high. The grades rarely reflect actual learning anymore, but it keeps crazy parents & kids happy.

Many, many teachers "don't care" about grades - myself included - but it's more in the idea that grades are unimportant to me, because I care more about you learning & growing than what your grade is. That sort of attitude is then used by parents, students and the district to sort of "force" grades higher. If the teacher doesn't care about them and they "don't matter" why not just give Johnny an A+? And if you don't give him the A+, I can e-mail someone that you'll be "afraid" of and you'll be forced to give him the A+ anyway.

I agree that grades aren't the most important thing, but because of college admissions, that is what most parents care about and can see as a "result" of their kid's school experience, so that is what they care about.

Parents love to say they care more about learning & growth than they do about grades. Until report card & college admissions time.

 

[zoobird]

It's been awhile since I've interviewed collage hires, so this might have changed, but GPA was the first gating factor we used to decide who gets an interview. It's not all important, but it's certainly not unimportant.

Depends on industry. My impression is that grades matter in finance and consulting, but not much in most other industries (unless you're planning to go grad school!).

My company (at least in my department - analytics) rarely knows what people's grades were, but we generally have a pretty high bar for what school people went to and need them to have the right types of degree (engineering of any sort, math, stats, computer science, data science, analytics, maybe some sort of hard science)