Sean Payton suspended 1 year (1 Viewer)

[JohnnyU]

Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.

 

[dickey moe]

LMAO @ all these bitter Vikings fans.

 

[RUSF18]

Reportedly Payton loses around $8 million this year by being suspended. Saints lose a second round pick this year (and next) so they don't have to pay the player that would have been drafted. Not sure if Loomis or assistant coach Joe Vitt are being paid during their suspensions (doubtful). The players will probably lose games and money for their upcoming suspensions.

The Saints were fined $500,000 by the NFL.

Are the Saints actually saving themselves more than $10+ million?

Next time, just link the Deadspin article. TIA.

 

[Disc Shark]

Where does the money for the bounties come from?

You mean besides the twice convicted (3x?) felon who's friends with Payton?

Here's a fun fact I learned today, one of Ornstein's felony convictions was for trying to defraud the NFL out of $350,000. I'm guessing the league wasn't too happy with his involvement in this.

It's no surprise that "Tom Hagen" would spot the rat. It's what a consiliere has to do. The NFL hates Ornstein, for good reason. I am sure that the NFL encouraged Payton to cut ties with him, but Sean did not. When evidence surfaced that Ornstein offered a bounty on Aaron Rogers (one of the League's superstars in the prime of his career), I'm sure the League office hit the roof. Now, it's not been shown that this offer was accepted or that there was ever a bounty for knocking Rogers out of the game (the 2011 season opener in Green Bay). Payton has claimed that he never read the e-mail (yeah, right). The League office does not like Payton. Those are among the motivations for the draconian sanction against Payton. Someone earlier in the thread asked, "Why no fine for Payton?" Well, he's about to lose $6-8 million due to the suspension. That's really quite a lot.I would point out that all the reports of misconduct by the Saints have been the NFL interpretation of the evidence it's collected. Frankly, I'd like to see the actual documents and statements that support the League's claims. If Payton files a lawsuit, I think we'll all see them. Payton's got 6-8 million reasons to file a suit. I don't think he can get any relief from the Leagues administrative process. He's not protected by any union, like the players are. He may have no real choice but to file.

As I've admitted before, I'm an unabashed Saints fan and New Orleanian since 1967. We know adversity - for centuries, up to and including the recent unpleasantness on and after 8.29.05. We will deal with this, however it comes out.

But if our head coach is going to be suspended for one full year, which, because of the timing, covers all of one year and a part of another, then there should be a similar investigation of all other NFL teams covering the same time period. If the practice was widespread, as I suspect it was (perhaps without direct involvement of the coaching staff), then the excessive penalties against the Saints are unjustified.

I'll bet that energetic and enterprising journalists will scour the country seeking interviews with former NFL players in the coming weeks and months. I'm willing to wager that similar bounty stories will surface from the distant and recent past, and maybe even the present. Nearly every former NFL player that I've heard interviewed in the last several weeks since the story initially broke has confirmed that similar bounty programs have existed for years. Everywhere. If you haven't noted this, then you are not listening or are in denial. If you believe that NFL defenders do not intend to maim their opponents every week, you are in denial. The self-righteousness of some of the commenters here is infuriating, especially those who are (or pretend to be) SHOCKED ... SHOCKED... to learn that NFL defenders would try to knock an opponent's QB out of a game. These people do not have the first clue about the nature of football.

Some of the haters are just anti-Saints, and I can deal with that. Every team or individual who is successful will create haters. I hate the Yankees (among others), for instance. The saddest of these are the continually-whining Vikings fans. Very sad, indeed.

As I also mentioned before, I will take the Super Bowl win and just deal with the current troubles. It's worth it. Many Saints fans have an inferiority complex (from decades of ineptitude) and a persecution complex (the League changes the overtime rule that's nearly 40 years old the first time benefits the Saints???). But we are also resilient and not afraid to speak our minds.

You really like trying to make every excuse you possibly can for this don't you?

No. If the bounty program continued in 2010 and 2011 (and the NFL obviously thinks the evidence shows that it did), the Saints deserve to be penalized. However, the sanctions imposed greatly affect the competitive balance in the League, something that Goodell alleged he was trying to avoid.

 

[Agent575]

Maybe to ease Vikings' fans pain, they should be forced to have Childress as interim head coach?!?!?

As a Vikings fan, I would certainly enjoy that. Realistically though, that is far too harsh of a punishment. I mean, look at the reaction for just some financial penalties and draft picks.

 

[Short Corner]

Reportedly Payton loses around $8 million this year by being suspended. Saints lose a second round pick this year (and next) so they don't have to pay the player that would have been drafted. Not sure if Loomis or assistant coach Joe Vitt are being paid during their suspensions (doubtful). The players will probably lose games and money for their upcoming suspensions.

The Saints were fined $500,000 by the NFL.

Are the Saints actually saving themselves more than $10+ million?

They still have to pay the salaries of the suspended employees.

 

[Disc Shark]

Reportedly Payton loses around $8 million this year by being suspended. Saints lose a second round pick this year (and next) so they don't have to pay the player that would have been drafted. Not sure if Loomis or assistant coach Joe Vitt are being paid during their suspensions (doubtful). The players will probably lose games and money for their upcoming suspensions.

The Saints were fined $500,000 by the NFL.

Are the Saints actually saving themselves more than $10+ million?

They still have to pay the salaries of the suspended employees.

I'm not sure. I think that all of the suspensions are without pay.

 

[ATC1]

Maybe to ease Vikings' fans pain, they should be forced to have Childress as interim head coach?!?!?

As a Vikings fan, I would certainly enjoy that. Realistically though, that is far too harsh of a punishment. I mean, look at the reaction for just some financial penalties and draft picks.

And yet, if it not for the "bounties" you guys would go on to "win" the Superbowl and Childress would still be your coach. You should be thanking the Saints.

 

[Doug B]

However, the sanctions imposed greatly affect the competitive balance in the League ...

I wouldn't assume that at all. Maybe if the player suspensions are over the top (8 games or greater for all). But the way things stand now, so long as the Saints can sign Brees, they're still a 10+ win team.

 

[FunkyPlutos]

Maybe to ease Vikings' fans pain, they should be forced to have Childress as interim head coach?!?!?

As a Vikings fan, I would certainly enjoy that. Realistically though, that is far too harsh of a punishment. I mean, look at the reaction for just some financial penalties and draft picks.

And yet, if it not for the "bounties" you guys would go on to "win" the Superbowl and Childress would still be your coach. You should be thanking the Saints.

In all fairness to Childress...he had the right game plan, it wasn't his fault they turned it over five times - that is what cost them the game, not the bounties.

 

[Herb]

Maybe to ease Vikings' fans pain, they should be forced to have Childress as interim head coach?!?!?

As a Vikings fan, I would certainly enjoy that.

Realistically though, that is far too harsh of a punishment. I mean, look at the reaction for just some financial penalties and draft picks.

And yet, if it not for the "bounties" you guys would go on to "win" the Superbowl and Childress would still be your coach. You should be thanking the Saints.

In all fairness to Childress...he had the right game plan, it wasn't his fault they turned it over five times - that is what cost them the game, not the bounties.

Ironically, it probably would have been better if the Taints had forced Favre from the game. That last INT would have been a first down run if T-Jack was QBing.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

However, the sanctions imposed greatly affect the competitive balance in the League ...

I wouldn't assume that at all. Maybe if the player suspensions are over the top (8 games or greater for all). But the way things stand now, so long as the Saints can sign Brees, they're still a 10+ win team.

I could see them going 8-8 rather easily...the nightmare for the league would be they tank and go 1-15 and get in the sweepstakes for life after Brees. Would be something if teams that have star QBs suddenly get derailed again and we have a Luck situation repeating itself.

 

[valhallan]

It baffles me that Vikings fans blame the Saints' transgressions more than Favre's awful pass for costing them a trip to the Super Bowl. That was one of the most egregious mistakes in NFL history. I guess it's just easier to point the finger at your opponent than at yourself.

 

[RC94]

Senator setting up hearings regarding the bounties: http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7722853/new-orleans-saints-senator-****-durbin-sets-hearing-bounties-nfl

 

[Doug B]

It baffles me that Vikings fans blame the Saints' transgressions more than Favre's awful pass for costing them a trip to the Super Bowl. That was one of the most egregious mistakes in NFL history. I guess it's just easier to point the finger at your opponent than at yourself.

Honestly: you've been over at Saintsreport. If the situations were reversed, the Saints faithful would be acting the same way.Fan reaction to this whole matter is fundamentally based on team allegiance. IMHO, factors such as "right vs. wrong" are secondary in forming "Bountygate" opinions.

 

[ArcticEdge]

It baffles me that Vikings fans blame the Saints' transgressions more than Favre's awful pass for costing them a trip to the Super Bowl. That was one of the most egregious mistakes in NFL history. I guess it's just easier to point the finger at your opponent than at yourself.

It baffles you? Does it? Did you see the pictures of Favre's leg, ankle and hip after the game? Guy was in serious pain, could barely run. You dont think that affected him? Not saying he still doesnt make that throw, but it certainly influenced his game.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

It baffles me that Vikings fans blame the Saints' transgressions more than Favre's awful pass for costing them a trip to the Super Bowl. That was one of the most egregious mistakes in NFL history. I guess it's just easier to point the finger at your opponent than at yourself.

Favre's bad pass was a result of his ankle being nearly broken so that he couldn't run for the yards needed to put them in field goal position.The worse mistake was AP's fumble at the goalline at the end of the first half(?).

 

[FunkyPlutos]

It baffles me that Vikings fans blame the Saints' transgressions more than Favre's awful pass for costing them a trip to the Super Bowl. That was one of the most egregious mistakes in NFL history. I guess it's just easier to point the finger at your opponent than at yourself.

For me it was two things...not even Favre's INTs:1. The botched handoff at about the 10 yard line that cost a scoring opportunity.2. Harvin's fumble that gave the Saints the ball inside the 10 - he never even really got hit.Those are the two plays that bother me the most about that game.

 

[Doug B]

Did you see the pictures of Favre's leg, ankle and hip after the game? Guy was in serious pain, could barely run.

No one believes this now, but I think that the Saints defenders go after Favre in exactly the same way with no bounty system in place. Can't prove it, can't disprove it. However, it was pretty obvious that the Saints had to rattle Favre to have their best shot of winning the game.

 

[ArcticEdge]

Did you see the pictures of Favre's leg, ankle and hip after the game? Guy was in serious pain, could barely run.

No one believes this now, but I think that the Saints defenders go after Favre in exactly the same way with no bounty system in place. Can't prove it, can't disprove it. However, it was pretty obvious that the Saints had to rattle Favre to have their best shot of winning the game.

Doug, you know I like you, but did you see the pictures? Ive slowed some of the hits and that pile drive down, it was brutal, they were trying to hurt him.

 

[valhallan]

It baffles me that Vikings fans blame the Saints' transgressions more than Favre's awful pass for costing them a trip to the Super Bowl. That was one of the most egregious mistakes in NFL history. I guess it's just easier to point the finger at your opponent than at yourself.

Honestly: you've been over at Saintsreport. If the situations were reversed, the Saints faithful would be acting the same way.

Actually, I avoid Saintsreport because of the blind homerism. So.. point taken.

 

[valhallan]

It baffles me that Vikings fans blame the Saints' transgressions more than Favre's awful pass for costing them a trip to the Super Bowl. That was one of the most egregious mistakes in NFL history. I guess it's just easier to point the finger at your opponent than at yourself.

Favre's bad pass was a result of his ankle being nearly broken so that he couldn't run for the yards needed to put them in field goal position.

Come on, at the time everyone agreed that was a classic Favre blunder. I have a hard time believing he wouldn't have made the same throw with a perfectly healthy ankle.

 

[Doug B]

Doug, you know I like you, but did you see the pictures? Ive slowed some of the hits and that pile drive down, it was brutal, they were trying to hurt him.

Yes, agreed. I'm saying the Saints defense, in the absence of a bounty system, still would have tried to strategically hurt Favre. It would be the familiar old Al Davis dictum made manifest.

 

[GregR]

Doug, you know I like you, but did you see the pictures? Ive slowed some of the hits and that pile drive down, it was brutal, they were trying to hurt him.

Yes, agreed. I'm saying the Saints defense, in the absence of a bounty system, still would have tried to strategically hurt Favre. It would be the familiar old Al Davis dictum made manifest.

They very well may have. If so the bulk of the problem would still be there though. The biggest problem isn't the bounties, they just amplified it.That problem being that it is wrong to try to injure other people to win a game. That the only reason it happens so much in football versus baseball or basketball is because football does have violence as part of the game, so it's easier to hide or at least get benefit of the doubt when committing violence that is not meant to be part of the game.

 

[saintsfan]

I am a Saints fan, so feel free to call me a homer, but I think the penalty against Payton is too severe. 8 games and I wouldn't have blinked. The Saints deserve punishment. To me, every one of the other punishments was legitimate except Payton being out for a year.

As far as the other stuff, those that want to take away the '09 Super Bowl should also want to strip New England of their Super Bowls. Personally, I don't see how a bounty program invalidates the results of the game, but to each his own.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I am a Saints fan, so feel free to call me a homer, but I think the penalty against Payton is too severe. 8 games and I wouldn't have blinked. The Saints deserve punishment. To me, every one of the other punishments was legitimate except Payton being out for a year.

Did you read the report? Payton repeatedly lied and tried to cover it up. Had he been honest with Goodell from the start, I'll bet he would have only gotten 4 or 8 games, but the lying and attempted cover up is probably why he got the full year. In short, it is Sean Payton's own fault.

 

[Doug B]

That problem being that it is wrong to try to injure other people to win a game. That the only reason it happens so much in football versus baseball or basketball is because football does have violence as part of the game, so it's easier to hide or at least get benefit of the doubt when committing violence that is not meant to be part of the game.

Be that as it may, the NFL -- especially the players, collectively -- had always tacitly accepted it. Think about this quote from Giants special teamer Jacquian Williams just two months ago:

Just don't get so caught up in vilifying those actions that you lose sight of the gray area that exists right on the other side of the line that [Gregg] Williams clearly crossed. Because sometimes that gray area gets pretty dark as it did after the NFC Championship Game when the Giants' Jacquian Williams talked about 49ers returner Kyle Williams, who fumbled two kicks in the game and had a history of head injuries.

"We knew he had four concussions," Jacquian Williams said after the game. "So that was our biggest thing, was to take him outta the game."

Think about that statement for a second, says Hugh Millen, a former Husky and NFL quarterback for nine seasons.

"How do you think those guys knew that?" Millen said.

The question isn't whether a coach-sanctioned bounty program is bad. Pretty much everyone can agree that it is. The more difficult and in many ways more important concern is how much worse it is than other things that a football fan considers simply part of the game.

"If our outrage for Gregg Williams is nine on a 10 scale, shouldn't that be an eight?" Millen said of the Giants' scouting report. "It doesn't even get mentioned."

The Saints' bounty program isn't some island in the ocean of professional football so much as an extreme example of an underlying mentality that is hard-wired into the game.

Now, Williams apparently felt free to freely admit that, with no thought whatsoever that league discipline would come down on him. If Goodell's intention is really and truly to make the game much safer, he should feel far from satisfied about shutting down the Saints' bounty system. He should realize that he has a ton of work to do to turn the NFL's underground culture of violence upside down.

 

[cobalt_27]

That problem being that it is wrong to try to injure other people to win a game. That the only reason it happens so much in football versus baseball or basketball is because football does have violence as part of the game, so it's easier to hide or at least get benefit of the doubt when committing violence that is not meant to be part of the game.

Be that as it may, the NFL -- especially the players, collectively -- had always tacitly accepted it. Think about this quote from Giants special teamer Jacquian Williams just two months ago:

Just don't get so caught up in vilifying those actions that you lose sight of the gray area that exists right on the other side of the line that [Gregg] Williams clearly crossed. Because sometimes that gray area gets pretty dark — as it did after the NFC Championship Game when the Giants' Jacquian Williams talked about 49ers returner Kyle Williams, who fumbled two kicks in the game and had a history of head injuries.

"We knew he had four concussions," Jacquian Williams said after the game. "So that was our biggest thing, was to take him outta the game."

Think about that statement for a second, says Hugh Millen, a former Husky and NFL quarterback for nine seasons.

"How do you think those guys knew that?" Millen said.

The question isn't whether a coach-sanctioned bounty program is bad. Pretty much everyone can agree that it is. The more difficult — and in many ways more important — concern is how much worse it is than other things that a football fan considers simply part of the game.

"If our outrage for Gregg Williams is nine on a 10 scale, shouldn't that be an eight?" Millen said of the Giants' scouting report. "It doesn't even get mentioned."

The Saints' bounty program isn't some island in the ocean of professional football so much as an extreme example of an underlying mentality that is hard-wired into the game.

Now, Williams apparently felt free to freely admit that, with no thought whatsoever that league discipline would come down on him. If Goodell's intention is really and truly to make the game much safer, he should feel far from satisfied about shutting down the Saints' bounty system. He should realize that he has a ton of work to do to turn the NFL's underground culture of violence upside down.

You do understand that, apart from the bounty issue (and of course the conspiracy against the Saints due to the fact that Goodell despises them), there are a few other reasons why the stiff sanctions against the Saints were imposed, right?By the way, I disagree that he has a lot of work to do. In one fell swoop, we will never see a bounty program like this one ever again. Not under his watch, anyway.

 

[cobalt_27]

I am a Saints fan, so feel free to call me a homer, but I think the penalty against Payton is too severe. 8 games and I wouldn't have blinked. The Saints deserve punishment. To me, every one of the other punishments was legitimate except Payton being out for a year.

Did you read the report? Payton repeatedly lied and tried to cover it up. Had he been honest with Goodell from the start, I'll bet he would have only gotten 4 or 8 games, but the lying and attempted cover up is probably why he got the full year. In short, it is Sean Payton's own fault.

I'm surprised it was so short, to be honest. You put all of this together, and Payton really and truly was pathological here. Too bad. I used to like the guy. The Saints were a great feel-good story. But, Williams and Payton and that entire defense basically erased that. They can go back to the days of putting paper bags over their heads as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Doug B]

You do understand that, apart from the bounty issue (and of course the conspiracy against the Saints due to the fact that Goodell despises them), there are a few other reasons why the stiff sanctions against the Saints were imposed, right?

Yes, I agree with Ghost Rider's take a few posts up.

By the way, I disagree that he has a lot of work to do. In one fell swoop, we will never see a bounty program like this one ever again. Not under his watch, anyway.

Likely not. But what Goodell has done is akin to a big-city police chief arresting a serial mugger -- one mugger with a long rap sheet --- and then proclaiming his city crime-free forever more.Seriously safeguarding player safety must go miles beyond rooting out one team's bounty program.

 

[Gadabout]

I am a Saints fan, so feel free to call me a homer, but I think the penalty against Payton is too severe. 8 games and I wouldn't have blinked. The Saints deserve punishment. To me, every one of the other punishments was legitimate except Payton being out for a year.

Did you read the report? Payton repeatedly lied and tried to cover it up. Had he been honest with Goodell from the start, I'll bet he would have only gotten 4 or 8 games, but the lying and attempted cover up is probably why he got the full year. In short, it is Sean Payton's own fault.

I'm surprised it was so short, to be honest. You put all of this together, and Payton really and truly was pathological here. Too bad. I used to like the guy. The Saints were a great feel-good story. But, Williams and Payton and that entire defense basically erased that. They can go back to the days of putting paper bags over their heads as far as I'm concerned.

That's cool, man.

 

[GregR]

I am a Saints fan, so feel free to call me a homer, but I think the penalty against Payton is too severe. 8 games and I wouldn't have blinked. The Saints deserve punishment. To me, every one of the other punishments was legitimate except Payton being out for a year.As far as the other stuff, those that want to take away the '09 Super Bowl should also want to strip New England of their Super Bowls. Personally, I don't see how a bounty program invalidates the results of the game, but to each his own.

I thought it would be more like a 2 game suspension, based on Goodell not having used suspensions in Spygate punishment. I'm glad he started using them though, as fines don't work.I agree with you though, I think I would have gone with around 8 games. Maybe 10 tops.

 

[cobalt_27]

You do understand that, apart from the bounty issue (and of course the conspiracy against the Saints due to the fact that Goodell despises them), there are a few other reasons why the stiff sanctions against the Saints were imposed, right?

Yes, I agree with Ghost Rider's take a few posts up.

By the way, I disagree that he has a lot of work to do. In one fell swoop, we will never see a bounty program like this one ever again. Not under his watch, anyway.

Likely not. But what Goodell has done is akin to a big-city police chief arresting a serial mugger -- one mugger with a long rap sheet --- and then proclaiming his city crime-free forever more.Seriously safeguarding player safety must go miles beyond rooting out one team's bounty program.

Perhaps. But, do you disagree that this was a necessary starting point?And, oh by the way, a necessarily stiff punishment to at least 3 men (and there will be more) who engaged in a cover-up?

By the way (x2)...I don't think Goodell has acted at all like the big city police chief and proclaimed the NFL free of crime. I think he exacted the punishment needed to establish that, if this is happening elsewhere, those individuals/teams know precisely what the cost will be of getting caught. I have not heard Goodell saying anything to the effect that his league has fully eradicated this behavior. I think he's sent the message that there will be severe punishments if it comes to his attention elsewhere.

 

[Doug B]

But, do you disagree that this was a necessary starting point?

Has to start somewhere, sure. Still, I'm interested to see if Goodell and the league in general ever gets all that far beyond this starting point.

 

[GregR]

That problem being that it is wrong to try to injure other people to win a game. That the only reason it happens so much in football versus baseball or basketball is because football does have violence as part of the game, so it's easier to hide or at least get benefit of the doubt when committing violence that is not meant to be part of the game.

Be that as it may, the NFL -- especially the players, collectively -- had always tacitly accepted it. Think about this quote from Giants special teamer Jacquian Williams just two months ago:

Just don't get so caught up in vilifying those actions that you lose sight of the gray area that exists right on the other side of the line that [Gregg] Williams clearly crossed. Because sometimes that gray area gets pretty dark — as it did after the NFC Championship Game when the Giants' Jacquian Williams talked about 49ers returner Kyle Williams, who fumbled two kicks in the game and had a history of head injuries.

"We knew he had four concussions," Jacquian Williams said after the game. "So that was our biggest thing, was to take him outta the game."

Think about that statement for a second, says Hugh Millen, a former Husky and NFL quarterback for nine seasons.

"How do you think those guys knew that?" Millen said.

The question isn't whether a coach-sanctioned bounty program is bad. Pretty much everyone can agree that it is. The more difficult — and in many ways more important — concern is how much worse it is than other things that a football fan considers simply part of the game.

"If our outrage for Gregg Williams is nine on a 10 scale, shouldn't that be an eight?" Millen said of the Giants' scouting report. "It doesn't even get mentioned."

The Saints' bounty program isn't some island in the ocean of professional football so much as an extreme example of an underlying mentality that is hard-wired into the game.

Now, Williams apparently felt free to freely admit that, with no thought whatsoever that league discipline would come down on him. If Goodell's intention is really and truly to make the game much safer, he should feel far from satisfied about shutting down the Saints' bounty system. He should realize that he has a ton of work to do to turn the NFL's underground culture of violence upside down.

I completely agree there is a lot more to do to change this culture. And I think Goodell realizes this. There is actually a quote from a source close to him saying exactly that in almost exactly those words.Whether he follows through on it, or gives in to the business interests of not wanting bad press will be hard to see. There definitely is a big gray area in the violence allowed in the NFL. Some things are clearly wrong. I would argue anyone with a goal of inducing another concussion in Kyle Williams is in the wrong, and clearly so. Anyone wanting to tackle him hard to have him hearing feet as he's trying to catch a punt, I would say is ok.

One of the reasons I support the punishment given out is that a major failing of the NFL so far with blows to the head and such, is not going after the teams. If the coach is telling someone to lay a player out, if he's teaching techniques that are dangerous, then there will always be players willing to do so to earn their spot on the roster.

I think to change the culture as you say, you have to get the teams to take a leadership role in doing so. And that hasn't happened. The opposite if anything. Which is one reason that though I think 8-10 games was more reasonable for Payton, I don't know that it will be a bad thing if other coaches see there will be a punishment that they just can't stomach.

I think the 2nd major place that the culture has to change is in high school and college. The NFL needs to take the lead because those places will always emulate the NFL to some degree. But we had a poster who claimed injuring people was justified because it helped you win. And it sounded like it was someone back in high school that taught him this.

The news that Congress might get involved caused mixed emotions in me. On one hand I'd rather see the sport of football take care of it themselves. On the other hand, the NFL is showing that there are too many people in football who won't change barring major threat of punishment. Maybe it would take legal threats to do that at all three levels of football.

 

[Doug B]

I think [Goodell]'s sent the message that there will be severe punishments if it comes to his attention elsewhere.

If what comes to his attention elsewhere?a) organized bounty systems

or

b) general head-hunting, intent to injure, and such

 

[cobalt_27]

I think [Goodell]'s sent the message that there will be severe punishments if it comes to his attention elsewhere.

If what comes to his attention elsewhere?a) organized bounty systems

or

b) general head-hunting, intent to injure, and such

yes.

 

[Doug B]

But we had a poster who claimed injuring people was justified because it helped you win. And it sounded like it was someone back in high school that taught him this.

That poster was not on an island, though. It's the same mentality behind targeting a hurt body part in an opponent.Remember in the 1993 regular-season finale, when Emmitt Smith sustained a separated shoulder against the Giants? And afterwards the Giants were selling out to lay hits on that shoulder (in the pile, wherever)? There was intent to injure right there, and that was't some one-off oddbal event. Going after opponents' injured body parts has always been freely discussed by football players and regarded as commonplace in the game. What does that reflect about the football mentality in general?

 

[Doug B]

yes.

I'd bet money that Mike Tomlin suffers no league punishment should James Harrison go helmet-to-helmet and concuss someone in the upcoming season-opener.

 

[cobalt_27]

yes.

I'd bet money that Mike Tomlin suffers no league punishment should James Harrison go helmet-to-helmet and concuss someone in the upcoming season-opener.

Do you suspect and is there evidence that Tomlin is actively encouraging this behavior? Are you really feeling here that Goodell just has an axe to grind against the Saints? Because it sure sounds like sour grapes to the rest of us.

 

[Doug B]

Do you suspect and is there evidence that Tomlin is actively encouraging this behavior?

If cleaning up the game is a priority, does it really matter? The hypothetical would happen under Tomlin's watch. Perhaps the Steelers should cut a repeat offender such as James Harrison. Even if he's acting on his own, with no encouragement.I'm making the point that player safety matters over here ... but then doesn't matter over there. Perhaps that will get rectified over time.

Are you really feeling here that Goodell just has an axe to grind against the Saints? Because it sure sounds like sour grapes to the rest of us.

Not at all -- Goodell and the Saints, especially Tom Benson and his daughter, have a great, mutually beneficial relationship.What I am specifically in doubt of is that Goodell was especially motivated by player safety in the way he has handled the Saints bounty system punishments. I was riffing off of something that Greg Russell wrote above. That's also why I agree with Ghost Rider's take that the cover-up was the greater impetus of the punishment:

by Ghost Rider:

Did you read the report? Payton repeatedly lied and tried to cover it up. Had he been honest with Goodell from the start, I'll bet he would have only gotten 4 or 8 games, but the lying and attempted cover up is probably why he got the full year. In short, it is Sean Payton's own fault.

 

[cobalt_27]

Do you suspect and is there evidence that Tomlin is actively encouraging this behavior?

If cleaning up the game is a priority, does it really matter? The hypothetical would happen under Tomlin's watch. Perhaps the Steelers should cut a repeat offender such as James Harrison. Even if he's acting on his own, with no encouragement.I'm making the point that player safety matters over here ... but then doesn't matter over there. Perhaps that will get rectified over time.

Are you really feeling here that Goodell just has an axe to grind against the Saints? Because it sure sounds like sour grapes to the rest of us.

Not at all -- Goodell and the Saints, especially Tom Benson and his daughter, have a great, mutually beneficial relationship.What I am specifically in doubt of is that Goodell was especially motivated by player safety in the way he has handled the Saints bounty system punishments. I was riffing off of something that Greg Russell wrote above. That's also why I agree with Ghost Rider's take that the cover-up was the greater impetus of the punishment:

by Ghost Rider:

Did you read the report? Payton repeatedly lied and tried to cover it up. Had he been honest with Goodell from the start, I'll bet he would have only gotten 4 or 8 games, but the lying and attempted cover up is probably why he got the full year. In short, it is Sean Payton's own fault.

The cover up was clearly the main issue. That's why there were not any suspensions handed down when the league first investigated the Saints' bounty program several years ago. There is clearly an understanding that this has gone on with some teams, which is why Goodell told the Saints in particular to knock it off because they were the few (if not only) teams that were engaged in a coordinated effort sponsored by a defensive coordinator. No penalties, no sanctions at that time. Very hands-off. Goodell said stop and expected the Saints organization (Benson included) to take this seriously and stop it.What Payton and Williams did after this is reprehensible and very clearly the reason why the penalties are so harsh. And completely justifiable. I think the practice of bounty programs is reprehensible, but it is the act of lying and the cover-up (as with all scandals, including Watergate) that are grounds for severe punishment. And, in the case of Williams, I suspect will result in the death penalty for him. He'll never lay foot in another NFL locker room again. For the cover-up, not the bounty program, per se.

This is why I don't understand how the Saints fans (Disc Shark and guderian especially) are so up in arms over this. It's pretty obvious to any non-saints fan that the punishment had to be severe.

 

[Doug B]

This is why I don't understand how the Saints fans (Disc Shark and guderian especially) are so up in arms over this.

Well, think about it: NOT getting up in arms about it (even if you do it internally, with your inner voice) would kind of mean you've rejected your fan allegiance. At least that's the way a lot of people would see it. There's a heckuva lot of dissonance involved with ardently supporting your favorite team on one hand, and then on the other hand being glad they got eviscerated.You don't mean to say that if this had happened to your team, that you'd be totally sanguine about it all? I think you can cut Saints fans some slack, even if you don't agree with them.

 

[Pnishthm]

I fully understand that the NFL is attempting to change the culture of violence in the League, but crippling the Saints and reducing their capacity to compete in the NFL is an unfair way to go about it.

If I were a Saints fan I would be upset about this situation. I would be upset at my team for doing what they did, and not having the common sense to stop when they were let off with a warning.

Greg, I think you would have to be a Saints fan to understand but I don't know many (if any) Saints fans that are upset with the coaches or team. Saints fan have suffered for 40 years and the feeling that we felt thru that entire season all the way thru winning the Super Bowl was like no other. I can say that as a Saints fan, I will gladly take whatever punishments were handed down if those infractions are what lead us to win our Super Bowl. All that has been posted on my Facebook all day from my friends that are fellow Saints fans are nothing but support for coach Payton and the team. It might be sad, but I am not sure coach Payton (short of murdering somebody) can ever do any wrong to this franchise or this city.

 

[cobalt_27]

This is why I don't understand how the Saints fans (Disc Shark and guderian especially) are so up in arms over this.

Well, think about it: NOT getting up in arms about it (even if you do it internally, with your inner voice) would kind of mean you've rejected your fan allegiance. At least that's the way a lot of people would see it. There's a heckuva lot of dissonance involved with ardently supporting your favorite team on one hand, and then on the other hand being glad they got eviscerated.You don't mean to say that if this had happened to your team, that you'd be totally sanguine about it all? I think you can cut Saints fans some slack, even if you don't agree with them.

I'm pretty sure I would not be angry with Goodell and more angry with the head coach, the ex-DC, and the entire organization for exposing themselves like this. I would like to think most people can think logically through this.

 

[cobalt_27]

I fully understand that the NFL is attempting to change the culture of violence in the League, but crippling the Saints and reducing their capacity to compete in the NFL is an unfair way to go about it.

If I were a Saints fan I would be upset about this situation. I would be upset at my team for doing what they did, and not having the common sense to stop when they were let off with a warning.

Greg, I think you would have to be a Saints fan to understand but I don't know many (if any) Saints fans that are upset with the coaches or team. Saints fan have suffered for 40 years and the feeling that we felt thru that entire season all the way thru winning the Super Bowl was like no other. I can say that as a Saints fan, I will gladly take whatever punishments were handed down if those infractions are what lead us to win our Super Bowl. All that has been posted on my Facebook all day from my friends that are fellow Saints fans are nothing but support for coach Payton and the team. It might be sad, but I am not sure coach Payton (short of murdering somebody) can ever do any wrong to this franchise or this city.

That's downright pathological. Like, seriously, consider what you are saying. That is insane. Just think about it for a second.

 

[drfeelgood]

I fully understand that the NFL is attempting to change the culture of violence in the League, but crippling the Saints and reducing their capacity to compete in the NFL is an unfair way to go about it.

If I were a Saints fan I would be upset about this situation. I would be upset at my team for doing what they did, and not having the common sense to stop when they were let off with a warning.

Greg, I think you would have to be a Saints fan to understand but I don't know many (if any) Saints fans that are upset with the coaches or team. Saints fan have suffered for 40 years and the feeling that we felt thru that entire season all the way thru winning the Super Bowl was like no other. I can say that as a Saints fan, I will gladly take whatever punishments were handed down if those infractions are what lead us to win our Super Bowl. All that has been posted on my Facebook all day from my friends that are fellow Saints fans are nothing but support for coach Payton and the team. It might be sad, but I am not sure coach Payton (short of murdering somebody) can ever do any wrong to this franchise or this city.

I think it's sad when a trophy trumps integrity.

 

[Gadabout]

I fully understand that the NFL is attempting to change the culture of violence in the League, but crippling the Saints and reducing their capacity to compete in the NFL is an unfair way to go about it.

If I were a Saints fan I would be upset about this situation. I would be upset at my team for doing what they did, and not having the common sense to stop when they were let off with a warning.

Greg, I think you would have to be a Saints fan to understand but I don't know many (if any) Saints fans that are upset with the coaches or team. Saints fan have suffered for 40 years and the feeling that we felt thru that entire season all the way thru winning the Super Bowl was like no other. I can say that as a Saints fan, I will gladly take whatever punishments were handed down if those infractions are what lead us to win our Super Bowl. All that has been posted on my Facebook all day from my friends that are fellow Saints fans are nothing but support for coach Payton and the team. It might be sad, but I am not sure coach Payton (short of murdering somebody) can ever do any wrong to this franchise or this city.

Well put. Most people will never get this.

 

[Disc Shark]

This is why I don't understand how the Saints fans (Disc Shark and guderian especially) are so up in arms over this.

Well, think about it: NOT getting up in arms about it (even if you do it internally, with your inner voice) would kind of mean you've rejected your fan allegiance. At least that's the way a lot of people would see it. There's a heckuva lot of dissonance involved with ardently supporting your favorite team on one hand, and then on the other hand being glad they got eviscerated.You don't mean to say that if this had happened to your team, that you'd be totally sanguine about it all? I think you can cut Saints fans some slack, even if you don't agree with them.

I'm pretty sure I would not be angry with Goodell and more angry with the head coach, the ex-DC, and the entire organization for exposing themselves like this. I would like to think most people can think logically through this.

From the information that I've seen so far, I believe that the Saints deserve to be punished, primarily because of the cover-up and the continuation of the bounty program in 2010 and 2011. As I believe Doug mentioned above, all of the sanctions against the team seem reasonable except the length of the Payton suspension. I am defending my team, yes, but I am not oblivious to the facts and the reasons for the League's actions. My primary objection is to the unprecedented penalty, even though I understand why the League is imposing it. I also object to certain commenters who either don't know (or pretend not to know) that extreme violence and similar bounty systems have been a part of NFL football for decades. Contrary to one of your earlier comments, I think many non-Saints fans agree that the penalties are excessive.

 

[Short Corner]

I fully understand that the NFL is attempting to change the culture of violence in the League, but crippling the Saints and reducing their capacity to compete in the NFL is an unfair way to go about it.

If I were a Saints fan I would be upset about this situation. I would be upset at my team for doing what they did, and not having the common sense to stop when they were let off with a warning.

Greg, I think you would have to be a Saints fan to understand but I don't know many (if any) Saints fans that are upset with the coaches or team. Saints fan have suffered for 40 years and the feeling that we felt thru that entire season all the way thru winning the Super Bowl was like no other. I can say that as a Saints fan, I will gladly take whatever punishments were handed down if those infractions are what lead us to win our Super Bowl. All that has been posted on my Facebook all day from my friends that are fellow Saints fans are nothing but support for coach Payton and the team. It might be sad, but I am not sure coach Payton (short of murdering somebody) can ever do any wrong to this franchise or this city.

Well put. Most ethical people will never get this.