Harry Frogfish
Footballguy
You sound like a ref. Congrats?
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SEEMS TIMELY>>>Which sport do refs impact the most? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter The General
- Start date
You sound like a ref. Congrats?
Runkle
Footballguy
I've read a few thinkpieces here and there on sports in America, which ones we like, why we like them, and why we don't like others. Why we go for the NFL but not the USFL, stuff like that. One of the reasons often pointed to is that we want to watch The Best, that the interest and excitement in sports comes from watching The Best compete against each other, and the value that some leagues have over others is how much they capture the Best athletes and can feature them.
The thing about The Best is that, well, they're really really good. And when you get to the championship of any major American sport... you've got such a high level of competition that, realistically, it's going to come down to an edge case to decide the title. There's rarely a clearly better team that is just going to completely outclass the other. The game is going to be decided by something nearly random... the funny bounce of a ball or some microsecond close play or some runner being an eighth of an inch on one side of the line or another. And as the players continue to get better, as they continue to optimize their training and perfect their techniques and use computers and video to micro-analyze every single movement they make, it's a perpetual arms race among The Best continuing to improve. And that's what Americans want to see... they want to see these players get continually better and play the game at higher and higher levels. And bigger and bigger games are going to come down to smaller and smaller things.
The problem is the leagues are not improving officiating at the same pace to keep up. They are not investing in making that side of the game better at the same rate. So while in reality we should be seeing games determined by the highest level of play, we're getting a frustrating experience of blown calls instead of edge cases making the difference. We should be getting epic games turning on microscopic advantages... instead we're capping off at like 90% because of the officiating, and getting shortchanged the elite portion of the difference-making. It's like two teams engaged in a Cold War of continual improvement, the US vs the USSR, but then when the battle starts we turn it over to Generals and Commanders from Italy and Latvia to manage the troops.
Is Lebron better than Jordan? Is Mahomes the next Brady? Legitimate questions as improved training is producing elite athletes that continually challenge for the title of GOAT. But is Carl Cheffers the next Ed Hochuli? Is the NFL improving the refs as fast as the players are getting better? Is the NBA? It doesn't seem anywhere close.
The thing about The Best is that, well, they're really really good. And when you get to the championship of any major American sport... you've got such a high level of competition that, realistically, it's going to come down to an edge case to decide the title. There's rarely a clearly better team that is just going to completely outclass the other. The game is going to be decided by something nearly random... the funny bounce of a ball or some microsecond close play or some runner being an eighth of an inch on one side of the line or another. And as the players continue to get better, as they continue to optimize their training and perfect their techniques and use computers and video to micro-analyze every single movement they make, it's a perpetual arms race among The Best continuing to improve. And that's what Americans want to see... they want to see these players get continually better and play the game at higher and higher levels. And bigger and bigger games are going to come down to smaller and smaller things.
The problem is the leagues are not improving officiating at the same pace to keep up. They are not investing in making that side of the game better at the same rate. So while in reality we should be seeing games determined by the highest level of play, we're getting a frustrating experience of blown calls instead of edge cases making the difference. We should be getting epic games turning on microscopic advantages... instead we're capping off at like 90% because of the officiating, and getting shortchanged the elite portion of the difference-making. It's like two teams engaged in a Cold War of continual improvement, the US vs the USSR, but then when the battle starts we turn it over to Generals and Commanders from Italy and Latvia to manage the troops.
Is Lebron better than Jordan? Is Mahomes the next Brady? Legitimate questions as improved training is producing elite athletes that continually challenge for the title of GOAT. But is Carl Cheffers the next Ed Hochuli? Is the NFL improving the refs as fast as the players are getting better? Is the NBA? It doesn't seem anywhere close.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
It's soccer and it's not even close.
2 major reasons.
1) The number of scoring plays. Simply put, botching a call in a basketball game might effect 1% of the total score. In football on a really bad day maybe 10%. In soccer a single bad call can effect 50% or even 100% of the score of the game.
2) Many of the rules in soccer are designed to be judgement calls for the ref. There is no hard set rule, it's pure judgement. The ref chooses when to end the game. The ref decides if a guy is trying to waste time or not. The ref determines whether the player's INTENT was to use his hand or not, etc.
And then on top of that, PKs are such a MASSIVE game changer with low scoring overall. So you often have games with only one singular scoring play that was created because a ref made a judgement on a rule that was created to basically say "eh, whatever you think, ref".
The same for red cards as well. A ref can essentially end the game in favor of one team at any point by giving out a red card based on a rule that completely leaves it up to his personal tendencies/bias on how a certain play should be enforced (studs up, high kick, tolerance for giving a 2nd yellow on a mid-tier foul, etc).
2 major reasons.
1) The number of scoring plays. Simply put, botching a call in a basketball game might effect 1% of the total score. In football on a really bad day maybe 10%. In soccer a single bad call can effect 50% or even 100% of the score of the game.
2) Many of the rules in soccer are designed to be judgement calls for the ref. There is no hard set rule, it's pure judgement. The ref chooses when to end the game. The ref decides if a guy is trying to waste time or not. The ref determines whether the player's INTENT was to use his hand or not, etc.
And then on top of that, PKs are such a MASSIVE game changer with low scoring overall. So you often have games with only one singular scoring play that was created because a ref made a judgement on a rule that was created to basically say "eh, whatever you think, ref".
The same for red cards as well. A ref can essentially end the game in favor of one team at any point by giving out a red card based on a rule that completely leaves it up to his personal tendencies/bias on how a certain play should be enforced (studs up, high kick, tolerance for giving a 2nd yellow on a mid-tier foul, etc).
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
The incredible popularity of college football and basketball always puts a huge dent in this often repeated theory.
American's will happily, and in HUGE numbers, attend and watch sports that feature players that are far far removed from the best.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
They do but even then they find a way to **** it up. This was on the front page of ESPN today
VAR official dropped for big games after error
John Brooks has been stood down as the VAR for Liverpool vs. Everton and Arsenal vs. Manchester City after incorrectly disallowing a Brighton goal
Runkle
Footballguy
They are the best at their level, however, and getting better. The top college players today are better than the top college players of the 80s and 90s.
Are the refs today also better than the refs of the 80s and 90s, and by the same degree the players have improved? Doubtful.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
The answer here is obviously "soccer."
But to focus on football for a second, the league completely brought this issue onto itself. They've been "letting the players play" in the playoffs for decades now. New England won multiple super bowls by blatantly holding the **** out of opposing receivers, and Belichick was a genius for this because he knew the officials wouldn't call playoff games the same way the called regular season games. Okay fine. But then you shouldn't start calling ticky-tack fouls inside the final two minutes of the freaking championship game.
Just have some rules and be consistent about how you apply them. If you call defensive holding strictly in the regular season, call it strictly in the playoffs. If you let borderline holds go, let them go in the closing minutes of the super bowl. It's not really that difficult.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
This is an American issue. In most of the worlds sports (dominated by soccer) every single game matters as much as any other since their champions are based on league play only. Here in the US, our sports inherently devalue "regular" season games because we use a "playoff" system to determine champions.
As such we should not be surprised that refs treat regular season vs playoff games differently since everyone involved, from players to coaches to fans also treats them differently.
The General
Footballguy
I think soccer and basketball, specifically college basketball, are neck and neck.
Hard to say what refs see on the field, perhaps they missed many. This one in the final minutes maybe the ref had a clear view of the jersey pull.
Bad spot to have refs in. I'd prefer they didn't call it in this case like I think most folks do but I get that they called it.
The General
Footballguy
Aren't there like 12 different cups and trophies throughout soccer seasons that are single elimination brackets?
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Each country has a main championship and a Cup tournament (the cup is slightly similar to what the NBA wants to try.)
Then there are the European competitions (like Champions League) which pits the best teams from all the leagues across Europe.
The main championship in each league is the lifeblood of the sport. Everything else is window dressing that leverages off of it.
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The General
Footballguy
College basketball used to be a little more geared like this. The NIT and now March Madness have always been the big thing (the bracket is iconic and the best teams playing at end of season is very cool) but there weren't league championships played at the end of each regular season more recently.
Being the regular season champs was a big, big deal. At least this is how I remember it.
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brettdj
Footballguy
I can only talk for football. But Yes the refs today are better than the refs of the 80s and 90s. They get much more and much better video. Especially at the lower levels. In 2002 it was rare for a High School official to get video of their game. Now the video is available for nearly every high school game.
In 2010 my NCAA D3 video was graded by an NFL official and I would get both the grading and video to review. The study groups for NCAA have tons of video now to review. Spring Clinics with on field training. Most of these clinic did not start until the 2000's, many after 2010.
Todays new NFL official has probably seen more video before entering the NFL than the 80s NFL official saw over his career.
Harry Frogfish
Footballguy
Next to zero accountability is the problem. In all pro sports.
And all the while, they can be bought.
And all the while, they can be bought.
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