Senate Select Committee on Intelligence: torture report (1 Viewer)

[lod01]

'Nothing wrong with torture as long as the right people get tortured' - Dirty Harry.

 

[Jackstraw]

'Nothing wrong with torture as long as the right people get tortured' - Dirty Harry.

Among the many abuses the Senate Intelligence Committee found in its report on the CIA's torture program, perhaps one of the more embarrassing for the CIA is that the agency actually tortured its own informants at one point.

 

[jon_mx]

What are people talking about when they say releasing this report is "playing politics"?

Is anyone denying any of the facts, that we horrendously tortured people? I truly believe that the USA is supposed to stand for something better than that. I am thankful this report has been released, because maybe - just maybe - by seeing the reality of what we did, we'll never do it again.

Yesterday's floor speech by John McCain - the one Senator who has first-hand knowledge of torture - was stirring. One piece:

"Tortures failure to serve its intended purpose isnt the main reason to oppose its use. I have often said, and will always maintain, that this question isnt about our enemies; its about us. Its about who we were, who we are and who we aspire to be. Its about how we represent ourselves to the world."

I'll defer to the guy who has actually endured torture as to whether or not it's effective.

Where did he say anything about its effectiveness? McCain's argument is based on principle.

 

[johnnycakes]

What are people talking about when they say releasing this report is "playing politics"?

Is anyone denying any of the facts, that we horrendously tortured people? I truly believe that the USA is supposed to stand for something better than that. I am thankful this report has been released, because maybe - just maybe - by seeing the reality of what we did, we'll never do it again.

Yesterday's floor speech by John McCain - the one Senator who has first-hand knowledge of torture - was stirring. One piece:

"Tortures failure to serve its intended purpose isnt the main reason to oppose its use. I have often said, and will always maintain, that this question isnt about our enemies; its about us. Its about who we were, who we are and who we aspire to be. Its about how we represent ourselves to the world."

I'll defer to the guy who has actually endured torture as to whether or not it's effective.

Where did he say anything about its effectiveness? McCain's argument is based on principle.

“I know from personal experience that the abuse of prisoners will produce more bad than good intelligence. I know that victims of torture will offer intentionally misleading information if they think their captors will believe it. I know they will say whatever they think their torturers want them to say if they believe it will stop their suffering.

 

[Doug B]

Not advocating anything ... just curious:

Are there tried and true totally moral and intenationally-acceptable methods for getting lawful combatants to divulge information?

The way it's lookng now going forward, after asking reasonably, there is no way to get information out of prisoners. Something that comes to mind, though, is something of a privilege system, or a denial of luxuries after having them early on.

Anyone?

 

[timschochet]

Not advocating anything ... just curious:

Are there tried and true totally moral and intenationally-acceptable methods for getting lawful combatants to divulge information?

The way it's lookng now going forward, after asking reasonably, there is no way to get information out of prisoners. Something that comes to mind, though, is something of a privilege system, or a denial of luxuries after having them early on.

Anyone?

its a fine question. I haven't answered because I don't know.

 

[Todd Andrews]

Not advocating anything ... just curious:

Are there tried and true totally moral and intenationally-acceptable methods for getting lawful combatants to divulge information?

The way it's lookng now going forward, after asking reasonably, there is no way to get information out of prisoners. Something that comes to mind, though, is something of a privilege system, or a denial of luxuries after having them early on.

Anyone?

its a fine question. I haven't answered because I don't know.

Yes, it is called interrogation.

Just so I have this straight: conservatives are pro-torture and liberal are anti-torture? Is that what all this political talk is about?

 

[Doug B]

its a fine question. I haven't answered because I don't know.

While torture is reprehensible ... seems that it the U.S. considers it totally off-limits, the jobs of terrorists becomes orders of magnitude easier. Won't the lawless eventually subdue the lawful, given time? I mean, you capture a terrorist, put them in Geneva-compliant detainment ... and what? Why would they ever talk?

Bad part is ... I know that John McCain is correct about false info gained from torture. So, some other set of Geneva-compliant techniques must be known and employed.

Also, can't the specific "torture lines" be moved? They could say, "OK, if that stuff is torture, then we'll dial back some -- then is that still torture? Still unpalatable? OK, we'll dial back a little more ... but we will find that sweet spot where you can't get us on 'torture' ".

Is it just thought, at some fundamental level by some people, that questioning detainees is itself wrong?

 

[SacramentoBob]

What are people talking about when they say releasing this report is "playing politics"?

Is anyone denying any of the facts, that we horrendously tortured people? I truly believe that the USA is supposed to stand for something better than that. I am thankful this report has been released, because maybe - just maybe - by seeing the reality of what we did, we'll never do it again.

Yesterday's floor speech by John McCain - the one Senator who has first-hand knowledge of torture - was stirring. One piece:

"Tortures failure to serve its intended purpose isnt the main reason to oppose its use. I have often said, and will always maintain, that this question isnt about our enemies; its about us. Its about who we were, who we are and who we aspire to be. Its about how we represent ourselves to the world."

I'll defer to the guy who has actually endured torture as to whether or not it's effective.

Where did he say anything about its effectiveness? McCain's argument is based on principle.

That's a pretty good argument then.

 

[The_Man]

Not advocating anything ... just curious:

Are there tried and true totally moral and intenationally-acceptable methods for getting lawful combatants to divulge information?

The way it's lookng now going forward, after asking reasonably, there is no way to get information out of prisoners. Something that comes to mind, though, is something of a privilege system, or a denial of luxuries after having them early on.

Anyone?

its a fine question. I haven't answered because I don't know.

Yes, it is called interrogation.

Just so I have this straight: conservatives are pro-torture and liberal are anti-torture? Is that what all this political talk is about?

Nowadays, I'm often confused by why Republicans stake out stances that seem pretty directly at odds with what have been traditional conservative values. For example, the idea that the United States would ever torture anyone seems like something everyone who believes in American exceptionalism would find abhorrent. For example, Ronald Reagan had this to say in his signing statement ratifying the UN Convention on Torture from 1984:

"The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of the Convention. It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today.

 

[Doug B]

Yes, it is called interrogation.

Can you explain it to me? You ask me a question to which you feel you absolutely must know the answer. I clam up. What's your next move?

My point is not that torture is necessary here. My question was specific -- what are the non-torture techniqus to interrogate a hostile prisoner? I'm not planting a "gotcha" here ... just want to know what the reasonable alternatives are.

I have read in many places that CIA interrogators have gotten good information without the so-called "enhanced" techniques. However, I don't know what the "regular" interrogators did, specifically, to get that good intel. Did they just luck out? Did they just do what cops sometimes do (e.g. good cop/bad cop, 15-hr interrogations, etc.)?

 

[Jackstraw]

“The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of [this] Convention. It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today.



The core provisions of the Convention establish a regime for international cooperation in the criminal prosecution of torturers relying on so-called ‘universal jurisdiction.’ Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution,” – Ronald Reagan’s signing statement on the ratification of the UN Convention on Torture.

 

[timschochet]

Was it wrong of me to enjoy watching Jack Bauer mentally and physically torture bad guys on. 24? By being a fan of that show, did I contribute to this problem?

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Nothing our military doesn't go through....On brink of drowning, being sleep deprived, hypothermia all part of special forces training... Regular military get gassed as part of their training....If we ask our military to go through it, shouldn't be a problem to put our enemy through it.

 

[Todd Andrews]

Yes, it is called interrogation.

Can you explain it to me? You ask me a question to which you feel you absolutely must know the answer. I clam up. What's your next move?

My point is not that torture is necessary here. My question was specific -- what are the non-torture techniqus to interrogate a hostile prisoner? I'm not planting a "gotcha" here ... just want to know what the reasonable alternatives are.

I have read in many places that CIA interrogators have gotten good information without the so-called "enhanced" techniques. However, I don't know what the "regular" interrogators did, specifically, to get that good intel. Did they just luck out? Did they just do what cops sometimes do (e.g. good cop/bad cop, 15-hr interrogations, etc.)?

This book by a career CIA covert operative who interrogated an alleged top level Al Qaeda detainee, some of it in the Salt Pit, explains it in exhaustive detail. Here is a recent op/ed he wrote in the Boston Globe.

 

[Todd Andrews]

Nothing our military doesn't go through....On brink of drowning, being sleep deprived, hypothermia all part of special forces training... Regular military get gassed as part of their training....If we ask our military to go through it, shouldn't be a problem to put our enemy through it.

Totally false. Our military doesnt go through it at the mercy of their enemy, in dungeons, with no idea whether it will stop or they will be killed.

 

[Ignoramus]

Nothing our military doesn't go through....On brink of drowning, being sleep deprived, hypothermia all part of special forces training... Regular military get gassed as part of their training....If we ask our military to go through it, shouldn't be a problem to put our enemy through it.

Not sure which branch of the service you were in, but this was nothing like my experience.

"According to CIA records, Abu Ja'far al-Iraqi was subjected to nudity, dietary manipulation, insult slaps, abdominal slaps, attention grasps, facial holds, walling, stress positions and water dousing with 44 degree Fahrenheit water for 18 minutes. He was shackled in the standing position for 54 hours as part of sleep deprivation, and experienced swelling in his lower legs requiring blood thinner and spiral ace bandages.

"He was moved to a sitting position, and his sleep deprivation was extended to 78 hours. After the swelling subsided, he was provided with more blood thinner and was returned to the standing position. The sleep deprivation was extended to 102 hours. After four hours of sleep, Abu Ja'far al-Iraqi was subjected to an additional 52 hours of sleep deprivation, after which CIA Headquarters informed interrogators that eight hours was the minimum rest period between sleep deprivation sessions exceeding 48 hours. In addition to the swelling, Abu Ja'far al-Iraqi also experienced an edema on his head due to walling, abrasions on his neck and blisters on his ankles from shackles."

 

[timschochet]

Nothing our military doesn't go through....On brink of drowning, being sleep deprived, hypothermia all part of special forces training... Regular military get gassed as part of their training....If we ask our military to go through it, shouldn't be a problem to put our enemy through it.

Where do you get this junk ?

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Nothing our military doesn't go through....On brink of drowning, being sleep deprived, hypothermia all part of special forces training... Regular military get gassed as part of their training....If we ask our military to go through it, shouldn't be a problem to put our enemy through it.

Totally false. Our military doesnt go through it at the mercy of their enemy, in dungeons, with no idea whether it will stop or they will be killed.

Are you sure about this...People die during training methods frequently..including live fire.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Nothing our military doesn't go through....On brink of drowning, being sleep deprived, hypothermia all part of special forces training... Regular military get gassed as part of their training....If we ask our military to go through it, shouldn't be a problem to put our enemy through it.

Where do you get this junk ?

Junk...It's called training.

 

[jon_mx]

Nothing our military doesn't go through....On brink of drowning, being sleep deprived, hypothermia all part of special forces training... Regular military get gassed as part of their training....If we ask our military to go through it, shouldn't be a problem to put our enemy through it.

Where do you get this junk ?

Junk...It's called training.

What kind of training?

AAAAAAArrrrrrrrrrrrmmmmmmmmmmmmyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy Training Sir!

 

[Todd Andrews]

One crazy thing no one is really talking about is the techniques we chose to use. The two civilian psychologists who came up with the enhanced interrogation program and techniques adopted them from techniques used on American soldiers by the North Koreans, who learned them from the Chinese, who adopted them from the Stalin state trials for political opponents. But those techniques were never set up to gather intel or information or get the tortured person to admit true information. They were set up to break the tortured person so that they would testify falsely in their own trials and admit the false things they were accused of doing, or in the case of the US soldiers tortured in North Korea, to get them to make false statements to be used as propaganda by North Korea.

So we didnt even adopt useful torture techniques, we adopted torture techniques designed to break people and make them say false things we desired.

Brilliant.

 

[Todd Andrews]

Nothing our military doesn't go through....On brink of drowning, being sleep deprived, hypothermia all part of special forces training... Regular military get gassed as part of their training....If we ask our military to go through it, shouldn't be a problem to put our enemy through it.

Totally false. Our military doesnt go through it at the mercy of their enemy, in dungeons, with no idea whether it will stop or they will be killed.

Are you sure about this...People die during training methods frequently..including live fire.

By accident. This is a bad line of reasoning already totally discredited by numerous people like Navy SEALS who say what they went through in SERE was controlled and nothing like our enhanced interrogation techniques. You should stop while you are behind.

 

[Ignoramus]

Nothing our military doesn't go through....On brink of drowning, being sleep deprived, hypothermia all part of special forces training... Regular military get gassed as part of their training....If we ask our military to go through it, shouldn't be a problem to put our enemy through it.

Totally false. Our military doesnt go through it at the mercy of their enemy, in dungeons, with no idea whether it will stop or they will be killed.

Are you sure about this...People die during training methods frequently..including live fire.

You never go into a live fire exercise with the fear of death looming over you. You know that, even though accidents happen, precautions are in place to prevent those accidents.This is a horrible argument. Just stop it.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Nothing our military doesn't go through....On brink of drowning, being sleep deprived, hypothermia all part of special forces training... Regular military get gassed as part of their training....If we ask our military to go through it, shouldn't be a problem to put our enemy through it.

Totally false. Our military doesnt go through it at the mercy of their enemy, in dungeons, with no idea whether it will stop or they will be killed.

Are you sure about this...People die during training methods frequently..including live fire.

You never go into a live fire exercise with the fear of death looming over you. You know that, even though accidents happen, precautions are in place to prevent those accidents.This is a horrible argument. Just stop it.

Nope.

 

[timschochet]

He didn't come up with it himself. Both Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity have made this "argument" in the past, I would bet.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Nothing our military doesn't go through....On brink of drowning, being sleep deprived, hypothermia all part of special forces training... Regular military get gassed as part of their training....If we ask our military to go through it, shouldn't be a problem to put our enemy through it.

Totally false. Our military doesnt go through it at the mercy of their enemy, in dungeons, with no idea whether it will stop or they will be killed.

Are you sure about this...People die during training methods frequently..including live fire.

By accident. This is a bad line of reasoning already totally discredited by numerous people like Navy SEALS who say what they went through in SERE was controlled and nothing like our enhanced interrogation techniques. You should stop while you are behind.

Nope.. I'm glad Todd and ignoramus aren't overseeing our national defense. Probably both bounced out of the cub scouts because it was cruel and inhumane.

 

[Todd Andrews]

Nothing our military doesn't go through....On brink of drowning, being sleep deprived, hypothermia all part of special forces training... Regular military get gassed as part of their training....If we ask our military to go through it, shouldn't be a problem to put our enemy through it.

Totally false. Our military doesnt go through it at the mercy of their enemy, in dungeons, with no idea whether it will stop or they will be killed.

Are you sure about this...People die during training methods frequently..including live fire.

By accident. This is a bad line of reasoning already totally discredited by numerous people like Navy SEALS who say what they went through in SERE was controlled and nothing like our enhanced interrogation techniques. You should stop while you are behind.

Nope.. I'm glad Todd and ignoramus aren't overseeing our national defense. Probably both bounced out of the cub scouts because it was cruel and inhumane.

I am far too warlike to oversee our national defense. One Sept 12, 2001 I would have implemented a mandatory draft of all persons between 18 and 35 and sent millions of them to Afghanistan.

Your argument is the typical bootlicker authoritarian goon argument, and you lose.

 

[lod01]

Nothing our military doesn't go through....On brink of drowning, being sleep deprived, hypothermia all part of special forces training... Regular military get gassed as part of their training....If we ask our military to go through it, shouldn't be a problem to put our enemy through it.

Totally false. Our military doesnt go through it at the mercy of their enemy, in dungeons, with no idea whether it will stop or they will be killed.

Are you sure about this...People die during training methods frequently..including live fire.

By accident. This is a bad line of reasoning already totally discredited by numerous people like Navy SEALS who say what they went through in SERE was controlled and nothing like our enhanced interrogation techniques. You should stop while you are behind.

Nope.. I'm glad Todd and ignoramus aren't overseeing our national defense. Probably both bounced out of the cub scouts because it was cruel and inhumane.

I am far too warlike to oversee our national defense. One Sept 12, 2001 I would have implemented a mandatory draft of all persons between 18 and 35 and sent millions of them to Afghanistan.

Your argument is the typical bootlicker authoritarian goon argument, and you lose.

I would be fantastic at overseeing our national defense. I would have kept Americans in the US and just tested some nukes in that area. Then I would have appeared on TV worldwide and said, "Any objections'?

 

[jon_mx]

He didn't come up with it himself. Both Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity have made this "argument" in the past, I would bet.

Tim calling people out for this....oh the irony.

 

[Jack White]

Not advocating anything ... just curious:

Are there tried and true totally moral and intenationally-acceptable methods for getting lawful combatants to divulge information?

The way it's lookng now going forward, after asking reasonably, there is no way to get information out of prisoners. Something that comes to mind, though, is something of a privilege system, or a denial of luxuries after having them early on.

Anyone?

its a fine question. I haven't answered because I don't know.

Yes, it is called interrogation.

Just so I have this straight: conservatives are pro-torture and liberal are anti-torture? Is that what all this political talk is about?

Another phony liberal-conservative issue.

Only statists and sadists approve of torture.

 

[tommyboy]

I'm pro torture.

 

[Doug B]

This book by a career CIA covert operative who interrogated an alleged top level Al Qaeda detainee, some of it in the Salt Pit, explains it in exhaustive detail. Here is a recent op/ed he wrote in the Boston Globe.

Thanks for these, although the op/ed didn't really address Geneva-compliant methods of interrogating hostile prisoners.

The Amazon link ... have you read Carle's book yourself? I noticed a few other books linked at the bottom of the page that look worth seeking out.

 

[lod01]

I'm pro torture.

Same here. I'm 100% pro torture.

 

[CGRdrJoe]

Nothing our military doesn't go through....On brink of drowning, being sleep deprived, hypothermia all part of special forces training... Regular military get gassed as part of their training....If we ask our military to go through it, shouldn't be a problem to put our enemy through it.

Totally false. Our military doesnt go through it at the mercy of their enemy, in dungeons, with no idea whether it will stop or they will be killed.

Are you sure about this...People die during training methods frequently..including live fire.

By accident. This is a bad line of reasoning already totally discredited by numerous people like Navy SEALS who say what they went through in SERE was controlled and nothing like our enhanced interrogation techniques. You should stop while you are behind.

Nope.. I'm glad Todd and ignoramus aren't overseeing our national defense. Probably both bounced out of the cub scouts because it was cruel and inhumane.

I'm pretty happy that we don't get rectally rehydrated, water tortured for days on end and/or all those other things. Hey after 16 years maybe I've just been lucky...

 

[Jack White]

I'm pro torture.

Same here. I'm 100% pro torture.

I doubt you losers would be pro-torture if you were the victims, as these people were.

 

[timschochet]

I'm pro torture.

Same here. I'm 100% pro torture.

At least you guys are brave enough to admit it, instead of the previous argument that what we were doing really wasn't torture . Are you okay with everyone using torture , or just the United States?

 

[MaxThreshold]

Yeah, I'm not really on board with torture.

But then again i'm not on board with the "just ask them nicely" method of interrogation either.

 

[CBusAlex]

I'm pro torture.

Same here. I'm 100% pro torture.

At least you guys are brave enough to admit it, instead of the previous argument that what we were doing really wasn't torture .Are you okay with everyone using torture , or just the United States?

The US is the good guys, because we don't do barbaric things like torture people. Because of this the US is the only country who can justify using torture. It's simple, really.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

I'm pro torture.

Same here. I'm 100% pro torture.

At least you guys are brave enough to admit it, instead of the previous argument that what we were doing really wasn't torture .Are you okay with everyone using torture , or just the United States?

Everyone is using torture....War is hell....I'm fairly sure the families of the kids who have been beheaded have no qualms about the use of torture on our enemies

 

[joffer]

I'm pro torture.

Same here. I'm 100% pro torture.

At least you guys are brave enough to admit it, instead of the previous argument that what we were doing really wasn't torture .Are you okay with everyone using torture , or just the United States?

Everyone is using torture....War is hell....I'm fairly sure the families of the kids who have been beheaded have no qualms about the use of torture on our enemies

that's generally why we don't let the families of the victims determine sentencing

 

[Ditka Butkus]

I'm pro torture.

Same here. I'm 100% pro torture.

At least you guys are brave enough to admit it, instead of the previous argument that what we were doing really wasn't torture .Are you okay with everyone using torture , or just the United States?

Everyone is using torture....War is hell....I'm fairly sure the families of the kids who have been beheaded have no qualms about the use of torture on our enemies

that's generally why we don't let the families of the victims determine sentencing

Who is talking about a sentence...We are talking about gleaning information from people who don't mind committing terrorist acts, up to and including beheadings.

 

[tommyboy]

I'm pro torture.

Same here. I'm 100% pro torture.

At least you guys are brave enough to admit it, instead of the previous argument that what we were doing really wasn't torture . Are you okay with everyone using torture , or just the United States?

Since everyone tortures, i see no reason to take that option off the table for the US. Besides were not any more special than any other country

 

[Sammy3469]

I'm pro torture.

Same here. I'm 100% pro torture.

At least you guys are brave enough to admit it, instead of the previous argument that what we were doing really wasn't torture .Are you okay with everyone using torture , or just the United States?

Since everyone tortures, i see no reason to take that option off the table for the US. Besides were not any more special than any other country

Just wow. I just shake my head at the depravity on the far right on this issue.

 

[tommyboy]

I'm pro torture.

Same here. I'm 100% pro torture.

At least you guys are brave enough to admit it, instead of the previous argument that what we were doing really wasn't torture .Are you okay with everyone using torture , or just the United States?

Since everyone tortures, i see no reason to take that option off the table for the US. Besides were not any more special than any other country

Just wow. I just shake my head at the depravity on the far right on this issue.

Thats actually a left wing mainstay

 

[Ditka Butkus]

I'm pro torture.

Same here. I'm 100% pro torture.

At least you guys are brave enough to admit it, instead of the previous argument that what we were doing really wasn't torture .Are you okay with everyone using torture , or just the United States?

Since everyone tortures, i see no reason to take that option off the table for the US. Besides were not any more special than any other country

Just wow. I just shake my head at the depravity on the far right on this issue.

The fact that John McCain agrees with you all (left) should throw up a red flag....

 

[lod01]

I'm pro torture.

Same here. I'm 100% pro torture.

I doubt you losers would be pro-torture if you were the victims, as these people were.

Dude got a free colonoscopy. That's an expensive procedure.

 

[lod01]

I'm pro torture.

Same here. I'm 100% pro torture.

At least you guys are brave enough to admit it, instead of the previous argument that what we were doing really wasn't torture .Are you okay with everyone using torture , or just the United States?

Just the USA because we are #1 and civilized....and we are the good guys. No one gets tortured if they are on the side of the good guys.

ie - Don't #### with us and you will be fine.

 

[Hilts]

I've always felt an argument - any argument - is rather weak when one side's defense largely rests on a "But they do it too!" line of thinking.

Perhaps it's just me, but I don't feel it's acceptable to hold ourselves up to the standards that are terrorists. We should set an example, not follow theirs.

 

[tommyboy]

Why?